Favorite Star Wars protagonist?

[The Romulan Republic]

Finn is nice in that he is fairly likable overall, but has the drawback that his lack of competence at points makes him less credible as a hero.

Where does Finn fall on the competence area?

Mostly a script issue where they don't know where to go with the character.

I don't know about that. I think he actually is the only character in TFA who has a significant, clear arc that isn't largely relegated to backstory (Rey's development is mostly just getting more powers and overcoming, for little apparent reason, her self-imposed isolation).

He starts out as an indoctrinated grunt.

When exposed to the horrors of war, he freezes up. This establishes both his fear, and his capacity for empathy.

Facing the potential consequences of his "disloyalty" if he remains in the First Order, he helps Poe escape because Poe can help him escape. We see that he's an affable guy who makes friends easily, but at this point he's still being largely driven by his fear, and just making his plan up as he goes, trying to survive. He's no longer a drone of the First Order, but he's largely reactive, not proactive.

Stranded on Jakku after his escape and believing Poe (his only friend) dead, he stumbles upon Rey and BB, and latches onto them, implicitly out of attraction to Rey and out of a sense of obligation to Poe, as well as (likely) simply to give his existence some meaning beyond survival for its own sake. This is the first point where he begins to really act proactively for a purpose other than self-preservation.

He follows Rey, pursued by the First Order, as far as Maz's castle. At this point, however, he wants to just keep running, rather than join the fight against the First Order. He's a decent person, but he doesn't believe that the First Order can be beaten, and he's still being driven by his fear, trying to escape.

Then Kylo Ren attacks. Finn witnesses Ren capturing Rey, and tries to chase after them. Failing that, he immediately tries to talk the Resistance into a rescue mission, offering his own knowledge of Starkiller Base and agreeing to go along on the mission. For the first time, he is actively and unreservedly working to oppose the First Order, not merely refusing to follow orders or trying to escape them.

Note that this is basically a reversal of the Prequel Jedi "attachment leads to fear, fear leads to the Dark Side" doctrine.

All this comes to a head in his final duel with Kylo Ren, where he and Rey are corned and alone, Rey might be dead or dying for all he knows, and he's against an opponent far beyond his capabilities, and yet he still stands his ground.

Their is a fairly steady development from First Order grunt, to decent but terrified man just trying to escape an intolerable situation, to actually taking a proactive stand for something (specifically, someone) he cares about, to a man who is ultimately willing to lay down his life in her defence.

Its actually a fairly compelling story. Its just entangled with a lot of other things, some of which muddle the film rather than enhance it.

At first he is a Stormtrooper, assaulting a point destruction raid on a village who then decides to obtain and defect. Never saw him do the 'stormtrooper' bit and run in and kill things.

Yeah, and that's the point.

I don't know if its ever discussed in any books or anything like that, but I strongly suspect that that was his first time actually facing those kinds of combat conditions. He was presumably considered capable, given that he was assigned to Kylo Ren's own force for a crucial mission, but he was likely someone who looked good on paper, in the sims, and had never actually been in serious combat (particularly if much of his prior career was spent working on Starkiller Base).

That exposure to the horror of battle, followed immediately by being exposed to the horror of what the First Order does to innocent bystanders, caused him to disregard orders, which is the impetus for everything else that happens to him in the film.

Breaking out Poe was a matter of just knowing the routines of the ship and not any particular spec ops training.

Wasn't he manning the guns during the escape? Or was that just on the Falcon with Rey?

Perhaps some credit on surviving Jakar but whatever. Hand to hand is somewhat iffy against Rey. Fight against gangsters and monsters was iffy and just lucky.

Eh, he survived.

Fight against Stormtroopers was pretty lack luster even when he had a lightsaber, was stale mated by a anti lightsaber stormtrooper.

Aren't lightsabers supposed to be damn hard to use, if you aren't a Force user? Or is that just old EU or something?

Big plan on the Starkiller base was predicated more on his knowledge of procedure and protocol other than some high speed ninjia skills.

He was still smart enough to quickly come up with that plan and sell it to the Resistance, and had balls enough to try it.

Fight against Ren? Ok. Not to bad.

Pretty good, really.

Admittedly, Kylo Ren was handicapped in a number of ways at that time, but still... he lasted longer against Anakin Skywalker's pseudo-Sith grandson than, say, Jango did against Windu or Boba did against Luke, and they were both experienced fighters with a lot more equipment.

All and all, I like the character but nothing about his 'stormtrooper-ness', rather for everything other than his prior vocation.

Well, yeah.

His being a stormtrooper is significant, though, both because the idea of a redeemed stormtrooper defector is not something they've done in the films before, and because it gave him the information necessary to carry out his plan to rescue Rey and destroy Starkiller Base. He'd likely have been just another grunt to the Resistance, at best, without that.

It also informs his motivations throughout the film- his fear of facing the First Order, and likely how quickly he attaches himself to Poe and Rey- because he has no friendships, no human relationships at all, outside of his fellow First Order troops.

As a Stormtrooper, he kind of sucks.

Considering he defected, yeah.

Like I said, he was probably someone who was, at the start of the film, "good on paper" but untested in battle.

Mind you, stormtroopers generally suck as stormtroopers in canon.

[Shroom Man 777]

The problem with Rey is that they made her mysterious so we don't know who she is, no family, no establishing bits aside from solitude... and hence she piloted the ship to space herself. Han meeting them on-world or something, or heck having the village elder and that village be related to Rey... some establishment. Jeez. Maybe the village elder Poe met, Max von Sydow, was Rey's "uncle" caretaker or something. CMON!

[Commander Veers]

Palpatine, of course.

[Q99]

The problem with Rey is that they made her mysterious so we don't know who she is, no family, no establishing bits aside from solitude... and hence she piloted the ship to space herself. Han meeting them on-world or something, or heck having the village elder and that village be related to Rey... some establishment. Jeez. Maybe the village elder Poe met, Max von Sydow, was Rey's "uncle" caretaker or something. CMON!

Mm, we see a fair amount establishing her life and desires. We know how she works, what little she gets from it, where she stands (given the moral choice between selling BB or not, she is clearly strongly temped but doesn't), how long she's waited, that she looks up to the rebels and Jedi (before she even meets Han and hears him mention Luke, she's playing around with the rebel helmet and such)... there's definitely big blank spots but Rey's personality gets established.


Finn definitely has a stronger arc but I do feel it does a solid job of telling us who Rey is.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, we get the gist of who Rey is, but she doesn't have the same character growth as Finn does, beyond deciding to accept what Fate thrusts upon her rather than stay on Jakku.

This seems to be something of a pattern with Abrams films, at least going of off Trek. In the 2009 Star Trek film, Spock (the ostensibly secondary character) had a stronger arc than Kirk (the supposed protagonist). Although you could probably argue that Rey and Finn are co-protagonists, with Finn being the lead for the first third of the film, and Rey for the rest of it.

[Joun_Lord]

Its not exactly without precedence for a Star Wars movie to have an ambiguous lead. Remember all the debate about who the main character is in Episode 1? Was it Obi? Was it Little Orphan Annie? Amidala? Or Brian Mills? There was good arguments made for and against why all of them could have been the protagonist or even all protagonists but at different points in the movie.

For TFA it really does seem a case of co-protagonists with maybe Finn being the lead for part of the movie and Rey the rest. But Rey just really didn't much time to shine, any growth she had was limited, her journey was mostly her going along for the ride until the end, and to some even her growth in abilities felt very forced. They did do a good job of establishing her character though but its arguable there was not change to her character, atleast nothing close to the changes to Finn.

Rey I think is going to shine in 8, it will probably be her movie whereas the argument could be made 7 was Finn's.

I really hope we get more backstory on alot of the new characters. Rey's backstory is unknown, Finn's before being abducted by the First Order is unknown, Darth Emo's fall to the Darkside is unknown, Luke's time between burning his daddy and playing hermit on some island is unknown, Snoke's identity is unknown, the state of the Empire and the NR is unknown, why Phasma was set up to be somebody important and was barely there is unknown, why someone made BB8 so ridiculously cute is unknown, and of course how they are going to handle Leia with the death of Han and her real world actress's death is unknown.

Alot of room to make some magic happen but also alot of questions that they might not have time to answer, the potential for alot of answers that fans might not like (Snoke is Windu, Rey is Luke's daughter, Rey is Palpatine's daughter, Finn is Lando's son, Phasma is Palp's daughter, Rey is Chewbacca's daughter, Finn is a clone, Rey is a clone of Amidala, Luke turned evil, and Chewie still gets shown no respect), and the potential for the ball to be dropped.

[Q99]

Yeah, we get the gist of who Rey is, but she doesn't have the same character growth as Finn does, beyond deciding to accept what Fate thrusts upon her rather than stay on Jakku.

This seems to be something of a pattern with Abrams films, at least going of off Trek. In the 2009 Star Trek film, Spock (the ostensibly secondary character) had a stronger arc than Kirk (the supposed protagonist). Although you could probably argue that Rey and Finn are co-protagonists, with Finn being the lead for the first third of the film, and Rey for the rest of it.

Agreed.

I do think Rey had some strong scenes with Kylo, but overall Finn was the co-protag with the most growth.

[The Romulan Republic]

Its not exactly without precedence for a Star Wars movie to have an ambiguous lead. Remember all the debate about who the main character is in Episode 1? Was it Obi? Was it Little Orphan Annie? Amidala? Or Brian Mills? There was good arguments made for and against why all of them could have been the protagonist or even all protagonists but at different points in the movie.

Yeah. Even for the OT its somewhat unclear, with Luke being the clear protagonist for the trilogy (unless you count the first twenty minutes, where if anything R2 is the protagonist), but a case being their for Anakin/Vader being the overall protagonist if the PT is taken into account.

For TFA it really does seem a case of co-protagonists with maybe Finn being the lead for part of the movie and Rey the rest. But Rey just really didn't much time to shine, any growth she had was limited, her journey was mostly her going along for the ride until the end, and to some even her growth in abilities felt very forced. They did do a good job of establishing her character though but its arguable there was not change to her character, atleast nothing close to the changes to Finn.

I think, again, that comparisons to Star Trek '09 are apt here.

Both Kirk and Rey are protagonists who's personality changes little, and who lack much of a clear arc, over their first film, with their main changes simply being the acquisition of more power (military rank in Kirk's case, Force powers in Rey's), often in a contrived manner, and them coming to accept their role as protagonists (Kirk must choose to actually do something meaningful with his life rather than pissing it away, Rey must choose to leave Jakku and waiting for her parents behind and embrace her role as a Jedi).

In both cases, also, the supposedly secondary character as the stronger arc and arguably more interesting/complex characterization (Spock, Finn).

Although Rey is kind of a reverse Kirk, in that Rey starts the film as a nice, likeable person and ends the film as a nice, likeable person (albeit with possible minor hints that she may be drifting toward the Dark Side), while Kirk starts the film as a jackass, and ends the film as a jackass.

Rey I think is going to shine in 8, it will probably be her movie whereas the argument could be made 7 was Finn's.

Perhaps, though I hope they balance the two, rather than just letting Finn fall by the wayside (especially since he's still unfairly seen as a joke by a lot of fans, mostly, I think, due to the "sanitation worker" bit). I'd like to see him fill a somewhat similar role to Han (though their personalities are quite different, of course) in the OT- a redeemed antihero who is a useful ally despite lacking Force powers.

I really hope we get more backstory on alot of the new characters. Rey's backstory is unknown, Finn's before being abducted by the First Order is unknown, Darth Emo's fall to the Darkside is unknown, Luke's time between burning his daddy and playing hermit on some island is unknown, Snoke's identity is unknown,

Well, we get bits of Rey's, Ren's, and Finn's, enough for me to get a sense of what the broad outline is. I still maintain that TFA very heavily implies that Rey is Luke's daughter, to the point that I both half-expect it to be misdirection, and would be irritated by the bait-and-switch if it is.

Luke and Snoke are the big unknowns here, I think. Them and Rey's parentage.

the state of the Empire and the NR is unknown,

The failure to properly world-build the political scene in TFA is one of the film's main narrative short-comings, in my opinion.

why Phasma was set up to be somebody important and was barely there is unknown,

I'm going to hold them to their word that Phasma will have a bigger role in VIII. If she doesn't, they will have a very dissatisfied customer.

Though I suspect the divergence between the build-up and the reality in TFA is more the marketing divisions' fault than the writers'/director's.

why someone made BB8 so ridiculously cute is unknown,

Marketing, obviously (both in and out of universe).

My pet theory- BB8 was designed as a civilian, not military droid, until it happened to come into Poe's possession.

and of course how they are going to handle Leia with the death of Han and her real world actress's death is unknown.

Its my understanding that Leia is confirmed for IX, for whatever that's worth. So probably no contrived rewrite to kill her in VIII. Though how they'll handle that (old footage, CG, just flashbacks, etc.), I have no clue.

Alot of room to make some magic happen but also alot of questions that they might not have time to answer, the potential for alot of answers that fans might not like (Snoke is Windu, Rey is Luke's daughter, Rey is Palpatine's daughter, Finn is Lando's son, Phasma is Palp's daughter, Rey is Chewbacca's daughter, Finn is a clone, Rey is a clone of Amidala, Luke turned evil, and Chewie still gets shown no respect), and the potential for the ball to be dropped.

Oh God, the fan theories about character identities.

All "Snoke is X" theories irritate me on principle, because it comes off as trying to shoehorn in a link to make everything connected to something that's already in the franchise, because God forbid they actually add anything new. Plus he doesn't look remotely like any prior character I can think of.

Finn as Lando's son also irks me on principle, because it has a weird racist undercurrent to it, like: "Oh, they're both black, so they must be related" (since there's no actual evidence besides that for them having any connection).

Or, you know, we could have more than two black families in the films (the Windus and the Calrisiens).

Rey being Luke's daughter is obvious. Rey being Palpatine's daughter would seem a tad random, but wouldn't bother me much if done well. Rey as a sort of "reverse Palpatine" or "Palpatine as he might have been" could be interesting, but if so, should probably have had more build-up in TFA.

I think the theory that popped up a while back that she's a return of the Chosen One (who may or may not be a reincarnation of Anakin) has some merit. TFA certainly established her clearly as the symbolic and metaphorical successor to Anakin (that's how I take the scene where she pulls Anakin's sabre to her instead of Kylo- its like pulling the sword from the stone, establishing her as the rightful heir to Anakin's legacy, and that ties in well with Ren's failed ambition to be Vader's heir).

Finn being a clone... I could see that, but I think it would have some serious racial baggage (I remember people complaining that the identical non-white clones in AotC were racist, back in the day).

Phasma as Palpatine's daughter... again, random, comes off as a bit fan-wanky. Plus then people would expect her to have Force powers, and there's no evidence of that. Though if they go the "rebuild the Jedi Order" route in the end, they'll need to recruit more people with Force powers than just Luke, Leia, and Rey.

Rey is a clone of Amidala... well, they do look a like, but more in a "Rey is Amidala's granddaughter" sort of way.

Evil Luke... would likely piss me off, as a Luke fan, but I can almost see it after the TFA trailer. Though he comes off as more just bitter/defeated than evil.

Chewie... he never gets respect.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, we get the gist of who Rey is, but she doesn't have the same character growth as Finn does, beyond deciding to accept what Fate thrusts upon her rather than stay on Jakku.

This seems to be something of a pattern with Abrams films, at least going of off Trek. In the 2009 Star Trek film, Spock (the ostensibly secondary character) had a stronger arc than Kirk (the supposed protagonist). Although you could probably argue that Rey and Finn are co-protagonists, with Finn being the lead for the first third of the film, and Rey for the rest of it.

Agreed.

I do think Rey had some strong scenes with Kylo, but overall Finn was the co-protag with the most growth.

Rey's best scene, for me (besides her introduction, for shear atmosphere- I love the visuals there, and I love Rey's theme), is the one I mentioned in my last post, where she pulls Anakin's sabre to her and away from Kylo. That was essentially King Arthur pulling the sword from the stone to show that he's the one true king- or in this case, Rey pulling the lightsaber out of the snow to show that she, not Kylo, is the one true heir to Anakin Skywalker's legacy.

I also liked the mind-battle between her and Kylo, because, while much is made of Rey having too much power, succeeding too easily, I can completely buy that scene on the basis that it is less a contest of skill, than one of will. And Rey clearly shows that she is the stronger person than Kylo.

[Q99]

Rey's best scene, for me (besides her introduction, for shear atmosphere- I love the visuals there, and I love Rey's theme), is the one I mentioned in my last post, where she pulls Anakin's sabre to her and away from Kylo. That was essentially King Arthur pulling the sword from the stone to show that he's the one true king- or in this case, Rey pulling the lightsaber out of the snow to show that she, not Kylo, is the one true heir to Anakin Skywalker's legacy.

I also liked the mind-battle between her and Kylo, because, while much is made of Rey having too much power, succeeding too easily, I can completely buy that scene on the basis that it is less a contest of skill, than one of will. And Rey clearly shows that she is the stronger person than Kylo.

I do wonder if she could've done that at the start of the film, before meeting Finn and hearing his stories and meeting Han and learning her heroes are real, like real-real.

Also I maintain the only reason she was capable of that was he was pushing hard enough that he projected into her how to do it ^^ Once that happened, yes, it was a battle of wills, and she was driven vs a wannabe with confidence issues.

Next time they meet, I expect he'll be something else.

[The Romulan Republic]

I do think that simply knowing it was possible, that the old myths were true and that she was now a part of them, may have been key. I've long maintained that, in keeping with the way the Force is described by Yoda in ESB, the most important factor to using it is not power levels or training in a particular Force technique, but having the right state of mind, and in particular, believing that you can do something. Remember this?

Luke: "I don't believe it."

Yoda: "That is why you fail."

It works on a similar principle, honestly, to the Matrix's "There is no spoon" scene.

Having Ren accidentally project the knowledge into her mind comes off as rather contrived, to me. It would be simpler (and more consistent with canon, I suspect) to simply say that the Will of the Force gave her that insight.

As to how their next encounter will go... well, its hard to really gauge how capable Kylo Ren is relative to Rey, because aside from the mind duel (which shows to me that she had a stronger will than him at the time), the only times they fought were (briefly) when he captured her, where Rey was very new to the concept of having Force powers and likely psychologically off her game, and on Starkiller Base, where Kylo was clearly exhausted and suffering from a serious injury. We've never seen them duel at their peaks.

I would say that, given the difficult a weakened Kylo posed to Rey, full-strength Kylo probably would have bested her, baring great stupidity or bad luck on his part.

How they'll match up once Rey has trained with Luke for a while, and Kylo has gotten in some more training with Snoke? Who knows?

[Joun_Lord]

Yeah. Even for the OT its somewhat unclear, with Luke being the clear protagonist for the trilogy (unless you count the first twenty minutes, where if anything R2 is the protagonist), but a case being their for Anakin/Vader being the overall protagonist if the PT is taken into account.

While I'm a fan of the Prequels (the horror) I never really agreed with the interpretation of Anakin being the overall protagonist. Partial protagonist and very central to the story but not overall. I could see the argument made that Artoo would be more of a overall protagonist then Vader because in some ways its his journey alongside the Skywalkers, he's been in all the movies and helped drive along the plot even when he wasn't the focus.

But I think Star Wars is a story with a great many protagonists like many good epics.

I think, again, that comparisons to Star Trek '09 are apt here.

Very apt. Especially considering how much both borrow from each other thanks to their director. I remember someone once commenting TFA and ST09 were a bit like Batman Returns where the focus wasn't on the actual protagonist but the more interesting side characters, the side characters became the protagonist. Of course the difference between Batmang and ST and SW is they are more ensemble allowing for more then one protagonist and even allowing co-protagonists and side characters to become the main occasionally.

Finn and Spork can sometimes be argued to be the main characters of the movie despite Rey and Kirk being the designated main because as you said their characterization was far more complex and interesting. You see something similar in Mad Max Fury Road where Furiosa steals the show from title character Max, is arguably the main characters because she gets the most focus, she gets the most growth, is just far more interesting then the supposed main.

I loled at Rey being a reverse Kirk. Yeah Kirk was kind of a d-bag the entire movie. Rey was just completely cute as buttons the entire time, Kirk releasing Scotty from the water pipes of DOOM has nothing on Rey bypassing the compressor. I am so glad they made Kirk less of a tool in the later movies.

Perhaps, though I hope they balance the two, rather than just letting Finn fall by the wayside (especially since he's still unfairly seen as a joke by a lot of fans, mostly, I think, due to the "sanitation worker" bit). I'd like to see him fill a somewhat similar role to Han (though their personalities are quite different, of course) in the OT- a redeemed antihero who is a useful ally despite lacking Force powers.

I am kinda hoping that as well. Part of what made TFA work in my mind was the relationship between Finn and Rey, they just played off each other so well much like how Han, Luke, and Leia did in the OT. That is one unfortunate part of the PT is they didn't have that dynamic too much. A bit with Anakin and Obi but most of the time they were separated.

I also hope Finn is given more of a chance to show himself as a badass. I kinda want him to be a Force User but even without him one just being a very skilled normal would be awesome. Maybe have him more in the role of Chewie, the big heart with the big weapons, doing the right thing even if doing the right thing involves shooting something, especially if it involves shooting something.

Well, we get bits of Rey's, Ren's, and Finn's, enough for me to get a sense of what the broad outline is. I still maintain that TFA very heavily implies that Rey is Luke's daughter, to the point that I both half-expect it to be misdirection, and would be irritated by the bait-and-switch if it is.

Luke and Snoke are the big unknowns here, I think. Them and Rey's parentage.

We get hints but nothing solid. I'd like some more of their stories filled in. Now we don't need like the old EU where every single fucking second of their lives is documented is some crappy novel even I with my pulpy action novels lining my book shelves wouldn't be caught dead with and every goddamn background ship, character, and doodad as a databank entry but some expansion. Mysteries need solved and JJ Abrams unfortunately is a man can make a good mystery but drops the ball like me during any sports when it comes to solving them. I don't want no goddamn Lost bullshit.

The failure to properly world-build the political scene in TFA is one of the film's main narrative short-comings, in my opinion.

I think the willingness to sacrifice world building is both the result of the EU taking up the slack and probably a bit of a reaction to the perceived excess of world building of the Prequels. Quite a bit of TFA could be considered a reaction to the negativity towards the PT. Its unfortunate for any causal fans or any fans like myself who were so burned by the original EU they ain't even dipping a pinky in the new one.

I'm going to hold them to their word that Phasma will have a bigger role in VIII. If she doesn't, they will have a very dissatisfied customer.

Though I suspect the divergence between the build-up and the reality in TFA is more the marketing divisions' fault than the writers'/director's.

Same. Just armor alone I think Phasma was interesting, truly asexual armor, no stupid boob cups or midriff bearing bullshit worn by an actress that makes manlets of most men. I "love" the complaints from people who couldn't even tell she was a woman. Unfortunately her armor looking awesome was about the only thing going for her, she was just such a let down.

Marketing, obviously (both in and out of universe).

My pet theory- BB8 was designed as a civilian, not military droid, until it happened to come into Poe's possession.

Might have been military. Make it alot harder for enemy soldiers to shoot your shit if they are too busy dawwing at it.

Its my understanding that Leia is confirmed for IX, for whatever that's worth. So probably no contrived rewrite to kill her in VIII. Though how they'll handle that (old footage, CG, just flashbacks, etc.), I have no clue.

From what I understand they delayed 8 for some rewrites to better deal with Carrie's passing. From what I heard they were pretty much done with the movie but have went back to re-edit and even re-shoot some stuff when she died.

Anyway it goes there is going to be a shadow hanging over the movie when its released much like there was over ST Beyond with Yelchins and Nimoy's passing. I just wonder if they'll find some way to work it into the plot like Nimoy's death.

Oh God, the fan theories about character identities.

Yeah there theories are pretty damn crazy with more then a few bordering on racist or outright ridiculous. Though there was some pretty outlandish theories for the Prequels and presumably there was some for the OT. My favorite for the PT was the theory Sidious and Palpatine were two different characters, one was a clone.

Other then the blatantly racist bullshit I'm not going to fault any fans for trying to finger shit out, I'm just as guilty (Rey is Luke's daughter).

It does create alot of confusion though especially these days when even rumors and conjecture might be reported by actual news sources. Like the Phasma/Palpatine thing I read from Digital Spy and supported by some facial prosthetics Christie is wearing and some fluff that says her armor is made from a Naboo yacht owned by Palps. Most everything else doesn't even have that level of evidence.

I just hope they don't go for the super obvious routes. Luke being Rey's father......'s brother’s nephew’s cousin’s former roommate would probably work, it is the story of the Skywalkers. Even Finn as Luke's son, can you imagine the racists bitching? But not having everyone related or some stupid shit. Not have Finn be Luke's son and Rey Palp's daughter and have some bullshit about uniting the galaxy or uniting the light and dark side (sure to piss off not even just the racists). It would be okay to have somebody who is just somebody.

But fans want to do stuff that is "clever" and Abrams is most certainly a fan. Lets just hope his inner fanboy stays put.

[The Romulan Republic]

While I'm a fan of the Prequels (the horror) I never really agreed with the interpretation of Anakin being the overall protagonist. Partial protagonist and very central to the story but not overall. I could see the argument made that Artoo would be more of a overall protagonist then Vader because in some ways its his journey alongside the Skywalkers, he's been in all the movies and helped drive along the plot even when he wasn't the focus.

But I think Star Wars is a story with a great many protagonists like many good epics.

I mostly agree with this. I also think that Anakin as overall protagonist no longer really holds up with the Disney films focussing on new characters, unless the "Rey as reincarnation of Anakin" theory turns out to actually be true.

And yeah, I mostly enjoyed the Prequels, a few major criticisms aside. Not One so much, but the others, yeah.

Very apt. Especially considering how much both borrow from each other thanks to their director. I remember someone once commenting TFA and ST09 were a bit like Batman Returns where the focus wasn't on the actual protagonist but the more interesting side characters, the side characters became the protagonist. Of course the difference between Batmang and ST and SW is they are more ensemble allowing for more then one protagonist and even allowing co-protagonists and side characters to become the main occasionally.

Finn and Spork can sometimes be argued to be the main characters of the movie despite Rey and Kirk being the designated main because as you said their characterization was far more complex and interesting. You see something similar in Mad Max Fury Road where Furiosa steals the show from title character Max, is arguably the main characters because she gets the most focus, she gets the most growth, is just far more interesting then the supposed main.

Fury Road is definitely another example of an ambiguous protagonist. I'd say its probably more Furiosa's story told from Max's point of view than anything else.

I loled at Rey being a reverse Kirk. Yeah Kirk was kind of a d-bag the entire movie. Rey was just completely cute as buttons the entire time, Kirk releasing Scotty from the water pipes of DOOM has nothing on Rey bypassing the compressor. I am so glad they made Kirk less of a tool in the later movies.

Ugg, I still haven't seen Beyond.

I am kinda hoping that as well. Part of what made TFA work in my mind was the relationship between Finn and Rey, they just played off each other so well much like how Han, Luke, and Leia did in the OT. That is one unfortunate part of the PT is they didn't have that dynamic too much. A bit with Anakin and Obi but most of the time they were separated.

I also hope Finn is given more of a chance to show himself as a badass. I kinda want him to be a Force User but even without him one just being a very skilled normal would be awesome. Maybe have him more in the role of Chewie, the big heart with the big weapons, doing the right thing even if doing the right thing involves shooting something, especially if it involves shooting something.

Agreed.

We get hints but nothing solid. I'd like some more of their stories filled in. Now we don't need like the old EU where every single fucking second of their lives is documented is some crappy novel even I with my pulpy action novels lining my book shelves wouldn't be caught dead with and every goddamn background ship, character, and doodad as a databank entry but some expansion. Mysteries need solved and JJ Abrams unfortunately is a man can make a good mystery but drops the ball like me during any sports when it comes to solving them. I don't want no goddamn Lost bullshit.

Never watched much of Lost, so no comment there.

In any case, I'm not sure how much influence Abrams has now (more on that shortly).

I think the willingness to sacrifice world building is both the result of the EU taking up the slack and probably a bit of a reaction to the perceived excess of world building of the Prequels. Quite a bit of TFA could be considered a reaction to the negativity towards the PT. Its unfortunate for any causal fans or any fans like myself who were so burned by the original EU they ain't even dipping a pinky in the new one.

Yes, I think that some of it might have been misguided pandering to the Prequel backlash.

Or it might just have been bad writing. Lots of Hollywood SF action films have plot holes galore and/or sloppy/skimpy world-building.

Same. Just armor alone I think Phasma was interesting, truly asexual armor, no stupid boob cups or midriff bearing bullshit worn by an actress that makes manlets of most men. I "love" the complaints from people who couldn't even tell she was a woman. Unfortunately her armor looking awesome was about the only thing going for her, she was just such a let down.

Phasma was a waste of a good character and a waste of a good actor, yes.

Might have been military. Make it alot harder for enemy soldiers to shoot your shit if they are too busy dawwing at it.

From what I understand they delayed 8 for some rewrites to better deal with Carrie's passing. From what I heard they were pretty much done with the movie but have went back to re-edit and even re-shoot some stuff when she died.

Anyway it goes there is going to be a shadow hanging over the movie when its released much like there was over ST Beyond with Yelchins and Nimoy's passing. I just wonder if they'll find some way to work it into the plot like Nimoy's death.

Well, I hope they handle it well. I'd hate to see them botch this and provoke a needless backlash over it.

Yeah there theories are pretty damn crazy with more then a few bordering on racist or outright ridiculous. Though there was some pretty outlandish theories for the Prequels and presumably there was some for the OT. My favorite for the PT was the theory Sidious and Palpatine were two different characters, one was a clone.

Other then the blatantly racist bullshit I'm not going to fault any fans for trying to finger shit out, I'm just as guilty (Rey is Luke's daughter).

It does create alot of confusion though especially these days when even rumors and conjecture might be reported by actual news sources. Like the Phasma/Palpatine thing I read from Digital Spy and supported by some facial prosthetics Christie is wearing and some fluff that says her armor is made from a Naboo yacht owned by Palps. Most everything else doesn't even have that level of evidence.

That... actually sounds like pretty telling evidence for Phasma being somehow connected to Palpatine, provided that its genuine.

And yeah, I vaguely recall "Palpatine is not Sideous" stuff.

I just hope they don't go for the super obvious routes. Luke being Rey's father......'s brother’s nephew’s cousin’s former roommate would probably work, it is the story of the Skywalkers.

As I said, I think they've made Rey being Luke's daughter so obvious that there's a fair chance its misdirection, but it might be hard for me to accept anything else.

I do think that thematically/symbolically, they have very clearly set her up as a successor to Anakin. Weather that direct descendant, reincarnation, or purely symbolic. And while part of me would like to see the franchise branch out more, I'm okay with the main trilogy films being the Skywalker Saga, and using the stand-alone anthology films to focus on other aspects of the setting.

As to "obvious"... well, Palpatine being Sideous was obvious as hell, and some people were still surprised.

Even Finn as Luke's son, can you imagine the racists bitching?

Hey, you're talking to a guy who almost never does shipping debates on-line (except to discredit pairings that I think are particularly stupid/offensive), but who actively supports Rey/Finn primarily to stick it to the white nationalists. You know, the ones for whom a black man with a white woman is the worst thing since Sherman's March.

But not having everyone related or some stupid shit. Not have Finn be Luke's son and Rey Palp's daughter and have some bullshit about uniting the galaxy or uniting the light and dark side (sure to piss off not even just the racists). It would be okay to have somebody who is just somebody.

Yeah, pretty much.

Though neither Finn or Rey can be said to be Dark at this point, in any case.

But fans want to do stuff that is "clever" and Abrams is most certainly a fan. Lets just hope his inner fanboy stays put.

How much influence does Abrams even have at this point? He isn't directing VIII or IX, and as far as I know, he isn't a writer for either of them. Maybe in an executive role, but he's not the only, and probably not the most powerful, person in that arena.

Could the next director just have chucked his game plan out the window if he wished? Not that that would be necessarily advisable, unless Abrams' plan was a complete disaster. You don't want to throw out any prior set-up in a jarring, obvious manner.

[Joun_Lord]

I mostly agree with this. I also think that Anakin as overall protagonist no longer really holds up with the Disney films focussing on new characters, unless the "Rey as reincarnation of Anakin" theory turns out to actually be true.

And yeah, I mostly enjoyed the Prequels, a few major criticisms aside. Not One so much, but the others, yeah.

Why I think the movies work better as the story of Skywalker. The PT was Anakins, the OT was Luke and Leias, and perhaps the ST will be Kylos and Reys.

I too mostly enjoyed the Prequels even One though I don't ever plan to watch it just for personal reasons. They are flawed movies but I still enjoy though to be fair I also grew up with them much like how many OT fanboys did with theirs and now new Star Wars fans are with the ST.

Fury Road is definitely another example of an ambiguous protagonist. I'd say its probably more Furiosa's story told from Max's point of view than anything else.

Defintely. And thats part of what makes the movie great, its not just Max or Furiosa's movie, its both, they both have an important role to play. Sure the explosions and car chases and awesome music help but I think even with all those things the movie would be poorer if the interactions between the leads, not just Max and Furiosa but also Nux and the Wives, wasn't so great and interwoven.

Ugg, I still haven't seen Beyond.

Aww dood, you really should. I had problems with 09 and Into Darkness (not least of which was it was a remake of Wraith of Khan done worse and with a white Khan for some stupid reason) but Beyond blows them out of the water. Start to finish its a excellent movie. Like a movie length episode of the tv show but in all the good ways, the opposite of Insurrection and Nemesis. Its funny, its action packed, its got great character moments and more then a few times you feel a bit wet at the eyes. And has the most insanely awesome moment in cinema. Its so insane, so stupidly over the top it works.

Never watched much of Lost, so no comment there.

In any case, I'm not sure how much influence Abrams has now (more on that shortly).

Lucky you but the general gist is Lost had problems with creating a world full of mysteries but not having any real plan to solve them, jsut kept heaping on the mysteries and any answers got dumber and dumber. Its one of those shows like Neo-BSG, remember the whole "Cylons have a plan" and Final Five bullshit?

Yes, I think that some of it might have been misguided pandering to the Prequel backlash.

Or it might just have been bad writing. Lots of Hollywood SF action films have plot holes galore and/or sloppy/skimpy world-building.

Probably a bit of both.

Phasma was a waste of a good character and a waste of a good actor, yes.

And a waste of a good costume. As someone who loves armor especially Stormtrooper armor it really sucks that such an awesome suit literally was thrown in the garbage. Atleast it looks good to make crappy action figures worse then ones from a decade ago. Seriously I bought some TFA 4 GI Joe sized action figures for some of my nieces and nephews and I got complaints because they couldn't pose them. I'm glad I don't collect anymore or I'd be just as angry. Probably says something when a 30 year old could get just as angry about an action figure as a 8 year old.

Well, I hope they handle it well. I'd hate to see them botch this and provoke a needless backlash over it.

I'd expect them to handle it with grace but as big of a part as Carrie was supposed to be in the 8 and how important she is to the franchise it might be hard to tiptoe around her. Compare her role in the ST to Nimoy's role in the reboot Treks, easy to remove him considering he was barely there. Not so easy with her. Removing her the wrong way could leave a hole in the film and piss off alot of people.

I definitely hope they do it right.

As I said, I think they've made Rey being Luke's daughter so obvious that there's a fair chance its misdirection, but it might be hard for me to accept anything else.

I do think that thematically/symbolically, they have very clearly set her up as a successor to Anakin. Weather that direct descendant, reincarnation, or purely symbolic. And while part of me would like to see the franchise branch out more, I'm okay with the main trilogy films being the Skywalker Saga, and using the stand-alone anthology films to focus on other aspects of the setting.

As to "obvious"... well, Palpatine being Sideous was obvious as hell, and some people were still surprised.

I too think it would feel wrong if Rey isn't Luke's daughter. Atleast a Skywalker, the long lost daughter of some kid Shmi had with Lars, something. It just seems wrong that Rey would be just some random person.

Definitely see her as the successor to Anakin, also Luke, with many parallels in all of their lives.

Thankfully it does seem the franchise is branching out more. Rogue One barely had any Jedi (save scary as fuck Jason Voorhees wannabe Vader and that blind dude who was a Jedi in all but name) and little to do with the Skywalker saga. The Hans Olo movie will be of course about.......jar Jar binks....no wait, Han so little chance of any Skywalkers showing up. The next movie supposedly they are leaning towards an Obi-Wan movie or a, blech, Boba Fett movie so probably won't be much Skywalker there either unless its Clone Wars era.

But yeah the core movies should stay Skywalker.

Hey, you're talking to a guy who almost never does shipping debates on-line (except to discredit pairings that I think are particularly stupid/offensive), but who actively supports Rey/Finn primarily to stick it to the white nationalists. You know, the ones for whom a black man with a white woman is the worst thing since Sherman's March.

I'm not ashamed to admit I've been getting some fun out of fucking with the racists, their bitching about "white genocide" over TFA and Rogue One and especially the Finn/Rey romance though I also think they make a cute couple. Of course I also think Finn and Poe make a cute couple too. Come on, you can't tell me there wasn't some chemistry, Poe even let Finn wear his jacket. I'd be totally onboard if they decided to make Poe and Finn a canon couple and not just because of the butthurt it would cause.

Yeah, pretty much.

Though neither Finn or Rey can be said to be Dark at this point, in any case.

Well if one is descended from SHEEV they could be said to be part of some "dark side bloodline". I'm sure people have come up with dumber ideas then that.

How much influence does Abrams even have at this point? He isn't directing VIII or IX, and as far as I know, he isn't a writer for either of them. Maybe in an executive role, but he's not the only, and probably not the most powerful, person in that arena.

Could the next director just have chucked his game plan out the window if he wished? Not that that would be necessarily advisable, unless Abrams' plan was a complete disaster. You don't want to throw out any prior set-up in a jarring, obvious manner.

As far as I know Abrams is pretty much the godfather of Star Wars, the executive in charge of everything. Even if he's not down in the trenches he is guiding the direction. I doubt a new director could throw out his stuff.

[Q99]

Having Ren accidentally project the knowledge into her mind comes off as rather contrived, to me. It would be simpler (and more consistent with canon, I suspect) to simply say that the Will of the Force gave her that insight.

He's rough in all his force abilities, though, and we know she was picking up stuff. At the very least, that close mind-to-mind contact made it a very short reach to lean over and start picking things.

Pretty much every force power she did, she saw Kylo do a few times.

As to how their next encounter will go... well, its hard to really gauge how capable Kylo Ren is relative to Rey, because aside from the mind duel (which shows to me that she had a stronger will than him at the time), the only times they fought were (briefly) when he captured her, where Rey was very new to the concept of having Force powers and likely psychologically off her game, and on Starkiller Base, where Kylo was clearly exhausted and suffering from a serious injury. We've never seen them duel at their peaks.

I would say that, given the difficult a weakened Kylo posed to Rey, full-strength Kylo probably would have bested her, baring great stupidity or bad luck on his part.

Oh, yea, choreography wise? They weren't close. The only reason he didn't finish off the heroes faster was because he kept on having to stop after knocking him back, he has a high-power style and if he could just jog forward he would've won, like, 3 times over, let alone be at full. Plus when he did have her back to the cliff, he chose to go for the conversion.

Kylo wouldn't even need full strength. If he was up to 2/3rds he'd have rolled.

[NeoGoomba]

Dash "Liefield" Rendar will always be my fave. Who needs the Force when you can have SHOULDERPADS

[Q99]

Kerra Holt. Running around behind Sith lines solo!

[Thanas]

Luke, Kenobi, Ahsoka, Jyn in that order.

The others I don't rate. I kinda liked Rey at first watch but when I rewatched TFA I was just so bored out of my mind that I couldn't even begin to care for the character.

[The Romulan Republic]

He's rough in all his force abilities, though, and we know she was picking up stuff. At the very least, that close mind-to-mind contact made it a very short reach to lean over and start picking things.

Pretty much every force power she did, she saw Kylo do a few times.

Don't recall him ever doing the mind trick in front of her, but I might have forgotten.

The only other Force powers (besides maybe some sensing of her surroundings) that I recall her using are forcing Kylo out of her mind (which he was demonstrating right then), and pulling Anakin's sabre to her (which he was attempting at the same time- not sure if he'd done it in her presence earlier).

Oh, and that weird vision thing in Maz's castle, but I don't really count that as I see that as arguably more something the Force was doing than she was doing- clumsy exposition by way of the Will of the Force.

Oh, yea, choreography wise? They weren't close. The only reason he didn't finish off the heroes faster was because he kept on having to stop after knocking him back, he has a high-power style and if he could just jog forward he would've won, like, 3 times over, let alone be at full. Plus when he did have her back to the cliff, he chose to go for the conversion.

Kylo wouldn't even need full strength. If he was up to 2/3rds he'd have rolled.

Can I just say I quite liked how the lightsaber duel/choreography was portrayed in TFA?

[Q99]

Don't recall him ever doing the mind trick in front of her, but I might have forgotten.

When he was mind-probing her he was also telling her what she should be thinking about and revealing, I think that was mind trick.

Hm, also, when he KO'ed and captured her, I'm not sure what force power that was for sure but I assumed it was a mind one.

Can I just say I quite liked how the lightsaber duel/choreography was portrayed in TFA?

Indeed! I could tell a lot of everyone's fighting styles from that one fight. Rey was a staff user used to thrusts. Kylo was a power fighter who regularly knocked his foes back/down with his strength... but that clashed with his hampered mobility. Finn's style was much more basic as one may expect from a soldier.

[Darth Lucifer]

Luke Skywalker, all the way. I really liked his story arc in the EU as well, from the Timothy Zahn Saga to the Dark Empire saga, parts I and II. But most of all for the redemption of Darth Vader as mentioned above.

[The Romulan Republic]

Don't recall him ever doing the mind trick in front of her, but I might have forgotten.

When he was mind-probing her he was also telling her what she should be thinking about and revealing, I think that was mind trick.

Hm, also, when he KO'ed and captured her, I'm not sure what force power that was for sure but I assumed it was a mind one.

Can I just say I quite liked how the lightsaber duel/choreography was portrayed in TFA?

Indeed! I could tell a lot of everyone's fighting styles from that one fight. Rey was a staff user used to thrusts. Kylo was a power fighter who regularly knocked his foes back/down with his strength... but that clashed with his hampered mobility. Finn's style was much more basic as one may expect from a soldier.

If you'll notice, Rey also fights defensively throughout most of the fight, while Kylo seems to waste a lot of energy on a very aggressive style, with these big sweeping swings of his sabre. Rey won because she fought smart, fighting defensively and, I suspect, basically waiting for Kylo to tire himself out/bleed out, while she wore him down.

[Q99]

Kylo's style was one particularly hampered by his wound when you get down to it.

[Sidewinder]

Han Solo.