Trump Dump: Foreign Policy (Thread I)

[His Divine Shadow]

It's set up to fail from the start. The other countries aren't incompetent, they just had different economies and pre-euro they worked relatively well. This system fails unless every country can be germany and the EU as a whole can export to the rest of the world, a ridiculous notion.

[Thanas]

Ah yes, the old "The Germans are saving too much. Those monsters. How dare they run a balanced budget. They should increase debt as always."

I wouldn't say it's Germany's fault, but IMO the current setup of bailouts vs a formal fiscal transfer system and a currency union where many of the countries will never be able to compete with the German economy isn't working out very well, particularly when some of those countries are fiscally incompetent.

Well we could have a fiscal transfer system but I doubt many people would welcome it....especially with it also meaning the EU being on the way of becoming a superstate. I am pretty sure most people will be against that, as it would also mean giving Germany more relative power. Because if the EU turns into a transfer economy that would mean that it would also have to be a political union as the German constitution would not allow this without it.

[Tribble]

It's set up to fail from the start. The other countries aren't incompetent, they just had different economies and pre-euro they worked relatively well. This system fails unless every country can be germany and the EU as a whole can export to the rest of the world, a ridiculous notion.

IMO the original intent was that the EU was isupposed to more or less be a superstate by now, but obviously that hasn't worked out. Another major issue is its size; perhaps if it had been restricted to the original founding members of the European Coal and Steel Community a full union could have been pulled off.

Everyone in the EU and Euro need to share responsibility here. Countries which could not have realistically expected to compete with powerhouses like Germany should not have decided to join the Euro or refused to do so, and the EU should not have allowed them to join. There is plenty of blame to go around if we want to go pointing fingers at people.

Ah yes, the old "The Germans are saving too much. Those monsters. How dare they run a balanced budget. They should increase debt as always."

I wouldn't say it's Germany's fault, but IMO the current setup of bailouts vs a formal fiscal transfer system and a currency union where many of the countries will never be able to compete with the German economy isn't working out very well, particularly when some of those countries are fiscally incompetent.

Well we could have a fiscal transfer system but I doubt many people would welcome it....especially with it also meaning the EU being on the way of becoming a superstate. I am pretty sure most people will be against that, as it would also mean giving Germany more relative power. Because if the EU turns into a transfer economy that would mean that it would also have to be a political union as the German constitution would not allow this without it.

I agree, but the current setup is a major problem that will have to be solved one way or another. IMO at some point the EU and its members are going to have to decide whether or not they want a full union because as I've mentioned before I don't see the current status quo as being sustainable in the long run. IMO you're either going to see an eventual union or your going to see some kind of decentralization, with the extreme case of some countries like the UK leaving. Obviously I'd prefer to see a single European nation state but it doesn't look as though that is going to happen anytime soon.

[His Divine Shadow]

Everyone in the EU and Euro need to share responsibility here. Countries which could not have realistically expected to compete with powerhouses like Germany should not have decided to join the Euro or refused to do so, and the EU should not have allowed them to join. There is plenty of blame to go around if we want to go pointing fingers at people.

There were a lot of lies and just plain being wrong about the euro when it was introduced and mostly those can be put upon on the heads of relatively few people in charge at the time. Round them up, throw away key.

[Thanas]

Everyone in the EU and Euro need to share responsibility here. Countries which could not have realistically expected to compete with powerhouses like Germany should not have decided to join the Euro or refused to do so, and the EU should not have allowed them to join. There is plenty of blame to go around if we want to go pointing fingers at people.

There were a lot of lies and just plain being wrong about the euro when it was introduced and mostly those can be put upon on the heads of relatively few people in charge at the time. Round them up, throw away key.

What lies would that be?


In Germany it was quite openly sold as being part of the reunification deal and the price we would have to pay in order to continue an integrating Europe.

[His Divine Shadow]

That it would work-

[Thanas]

That it would work-

Work in doing whatexactly? Be specific.

[His Divine Shadow]

No thank you.

[Thanas]

So you want to lock people up for something you can't or won't even elaborate on? Seems legit.

[His Divine Shadow]

I am pretty sure it would be easy to see who argued for the euros introduction and it's pros. Bet there are logs and everything.

[Crazedwraith]

I'm reasonably sure you would have to prove they did so out some sort of malice and deception about the benefits of the euro to prosecute them. Rather than just them being wrong about it being a good idea.

[His Divine Shadow]

Yeah it's not like I actually think it'd happen in a million years, but one can dream.

[Simon_Jester]

Why would you dream of throwing people in jail for a nebulously defined, unprovable offense, when there is no special reason to assume they were malicious liars as opposed to simply being wrong?

And if there is evidence, and a precise definition of the offense, what harm is there in offering such things?

[Thanas]

It even is impossible to say that they were wrong right now because he cannot even define what the euro was supposed to achieve.

[His Divine Shadow]

Fuck them all though, perhaps it's time you banned me now and stopped just saying you'll do it.

[Thanas]

Maybe stop throwing temper tantrums as if you were a little child.

[Iroscato]

Fuck them all though, perhaps it's time you banned me now and stopped just saying you'll do it.

What the fuck's gotten into you lately?

[His Divine Shadow]

Maybe stop throwing temper tantrums as if you were a little child.

I think you're overestimating my actual anger factor here. It's more a I can't be fucked to put in any effort anymore thing.

[His Divine Shadow]

Fuck them all though, perhaps it's time you banned me now and stopped just saying you'll do it.

What the fuck's gotten into you lately?

Ehhh, 10 years of recession and austerity (but not for the people who caused it) and the global political disaster of neoliberalism currently paving the way for the return of fascism that nobody at the top is gonna get billed for in any way. Only the public as they get to pay and pay for the richest. It would be nice to see the people who created this mess to answer for how it ended up, regardless of their intentions (though I doubt they were that honorable, lot of free market loving loonies more likely). The world seems like a bad joke so it's hard for me to treat it entirely seriously anymore. This makes me bad at debating properly, bad for this forum.

But, perhaps I can be thought of as a canary in a coal mine when it comes to europe and what people are feeling like.

[mr friendly guy]

Fuck them all though, perhaps it's time you banned me now and stopped just saying you'll do it.

What the fuck's gotten into you lately?

Ehhh, 10 years of recession and austerity (but not for the people who caused it) and the global political disaster of neoliberalism currently paving the way for the return of fascism that nobody at the top is gonna get billed for in any way. Only the public as they get to pay and pay for the richest. It would be nice to see the people who created this mess to answer for how it ended up, regardless of their intentions (though I doubt they were that honorable, lot of free market loving loonies more likely). The world seems like a bad joke so it's hard for me to treat it entirely seriously anymore. This makes me bad at debating properly, bad for this forum.

But, perhaps I can be thought of as a canary in a coal mine when it comes to europe and what people are feeling like.

Huh? According to IMF numbers Finland in 2016 is around 9% larger than it was in 2006 GDP wise. It grew in 2015 and 2016, and out of that 10 year period it experienced shrinkage in 4 of those 10 years. Not stellar but hardly as bad as your described.
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo ... D&grp=0&a=

[His Divine Shadow]

Yeah keep looking at GDP numbers... US has good GDP numbers too.

[mr friendly guy]

Recessions are defined by GDP numbers. Its literally in the definition, ie 2 quarters of negative growth. If you don't mean the usually accepted definition of recession when you say "recession", what exactly do you mean?

[His Divine Shadow]

I'm not gonna bother with this anymore. It's been talked about before on this forum, for years on end! You know what I am talking about, everyone knows what I am talking about. This is just such a good example of why I don't care anymore, things just go in these useless, pedantic circles. you can take that as a concession or whatever you like.

[Alkaloid]

So Malcolm Turnbull is a spineless example of all that is wrong with neoliberalism, but he's not unfunny. It's not exactly cutting edge satire but it's there. Laurie Oakes could work on his comic timing though.

[Alkaloid]

Recessions are defined by GDP numbers. Its literally in the definition, ie 2 quarters of negative growth. If you don't mean the usually accepted definition of recession when you say "recession", what exactly do you mean?

I think the point he's trying to make is that it's all well and good to say GDP is going up, everything is fine but what does that matter if the populace of a country aren't actually benefiting from it or the society is failing to function. I mean hell, the GDP of the US is growing but there's a city of 100 thousand people in Michigan who are being told to pay for tap water that is literally poisonous because the city administrators moved to a 'cheaper' water source. And having debt collectors sent after them if they don't. What benefit do any of those people get from an increasing GDP?

Rising GDP might be good for an economy but there is more to a country than its economy, and the value of everything can't necessarily be reduced to a dollar figure.