Stalin's victims

[Sir Sirius]

Wow, a real live Stalin apologist, never seen one of these before. Must keep an eye on this thread, might prove to be interresting.

Well, here is something on The Artificial Famine/Genocide in Ukraine 1932-33.

In 1929-1932 the Soviet Communist Party under Stalin's leadership... struck a double blow at the peasantry of the USSR as a whole: dekulakization and collectivization. Dekulakization meant the killing, or deportation to the Arctic with their families, of millions of peasants... Collectivization meant the effective abolition of private property in land, and the concentration of the remaining peasantry in "collective farms" under Party control. These two measures resulted in millions of deaths...

Then in 1932-3 came what may be described as a terror famine inflicted on the collectivized peasants of the Ukraine and the largely Ukrainian Kuban (together with the Don and Volga areas) by the methods of setting for them grain quotas far above the possible, removing every handful of food, and preventing help from outside -- even from other areas of the USSR -- from reaching the starving. This action, even more destructive of life than those of 1929- 32, was accompanied by a wide- ranging attack on all Ukrainian cultural and intellectual centres and leaders, and on the Ukrainian churches. The supposed contumaciousness of the Ukrainian peasants in not surrendering grain they did not have was explicitly blamed on nationalism... The Ukrainian peasant thus suffered in double guise -- as a peasant and as a Ukrainian...

The total [conservative] peasant dead as a result of the dekulakization and famine [were] about 14.5 million... seven million plus from dekulakization and about seven million plus in the famine...

[There was] ... the ability of Stalin and the Soviet authorities to conceal or confuse the facts. Moveover, they were abetted by many Westerners who for one reason or another wished to be deceived. And even when the facts, or some of them, percolated in a general way into the Western mind, there were Soviet formulae which tended to justify or at least excuse them...

--Conquest, Robert. The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine. Edmonton: University of Alberta Press in association with the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, 1986.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Duchess of Zeon
Back it up. If you have some thought-out stats, it's no good.
I already stated that the 20.000.000 figure comes from sources unbothered with statistics and data processing.
All the evidence denies the impossible number. I wonder, why should all documents lie at once?

Actually, the burden of proof is completely on you fucker. You made the claim you provide the proof. And no, your delusions about the world and Stalin are not evidence.

[Kuroneko]

Stas Bush isn't exactly pulling figures out of thin air. He really has the extent of Stalin's convicted political victims. However, he's still very, very wrong.

On Feb. 1, 1954, a document was released by Khruschev, signed by general attorney Rudenko, minister of internal affairs Kruglov, and others, stated that during the 1921-1954 period, 3,777,380 persons were convicted for counter-revolutionary crimes, 642,980 were executed, and 2,369,220 imprisoned.

This part Stas Bush has gotten right. However, there are other factors:

• Collectivization/dekulakization executions: 9,500,000
  Purge of foreign and other unwanted classes: 1,000,000
  1934-1939 repressions: 9,000,000
  Forced relocation of Crimean, N. Caucasus, etc. peoples: 1,000,000
  Ukazniki: 2,000,000-3,000,000
  1940-1953 repressions: 4,000,000

(Kuznetsov A.A., "O Beloi Armii i ee nagradah. 1917-1922." "Stolitsa"-"Knizhnik", 1991, p. 7-8 )

And that's even discounting deaths by famine, e.g. Volga 1921-1926 (5,900,000 deaths), which was a direct result of collectivization, and thus still Stalin's fault, and things like annexation of various states (Belorussia, Ukraine, Baltics, etc.) that add at least 1,000,000.

Frankly, I believe the 20,000,000 figure is too conservative.

[Nathan F]

Dang...

I knew Stas Bush was bad, but, wow...

I was almost feeling a bit bad about the things I posted in OT about the titles, but, not anymore.

Stas, dude, what the hell is wrong with you?

[Shinova]

Stas, dude, what the hell is wrong with you?

1. He's a real Stalin fan.

2. He's a deluded America-hater.

3. Too much nationalist pride in russia.

4. Member of the idiot side of the anti-war movement.


Perhaps he's all of them.

[Nathan F]

Stas, dude, what the hell is wrong with you?

1. He's a real Stalin fan.

2. He's a deluded America-hater.

3. Too much nationalist pride in russia.

4. Member of the idiot side of the anti-war movement.


Perhaps he's all of them.

I am guessing all four.

[Nathan F]

Stas, dude, what the hell is wrong with you?

1. He's a real Stalin fan.

2. He's a deluded America-hater.

3. Too much nationalist pride in russia.

4. Member of the idiot side of the anti-war movement.


Perhaps he's all of them.

I am guessing all four.

I retract that. 1, 2, and 4 are what I am am thinking.

fgalkin prooves the third to be wrong.

[Darth Wong]

Wow, a real live Stalin apologist, never seen one of these before. Must keep an eye on this thread, might prove to be interresting.

I hear the sound of people jumping on a bandwagon. From the first page:

I have to say I hate Stalin really much, because it was he who repressed my relatives. But this also forced me to do some research on repressions. It was pretty bad, but not the freakish uber-numbers some people are using nowadays ...

I don't know if I would call him a Stalin apologist. At no time has he denied that Stalin was genocidal or evil. He only says the numbers are exaggerated.

Whether you agree with that would depend on the way you quantify the deaths that a man should be held responsible for. The Europeans caused the reduction of the North American Native population from 100 million to less than 20 million as a result of "Manifest Destiny", but because not all of those deaths were directly inflicted by warfare, they are usually discounted. Yet we routinely include all manner of deaths as a result of famines etc. under Stalin's rule as part of his personal body count, which is rather inconsistent. I could easily accept 20 to 30 million as Stalin's body count as long as people are willing to be consistent and peg the European invaders of North America for 80 million.

[Kuroneko]

Stas, dude, what the hell is wrong with you?

1. He's a real Stalin fan.

That would contradict his own statements, but then can we expect consistency?

2. He's a deluded America-hater.

Possible, but I question the relevancy to Stalin.

3. Too much nationalist pride in russia.

Anti-Stalin sentiment has been "in vogue" in Russia ever since Khruschev, so really doubt that is the reason.

4. Member of the idiot side of the anti-war movement.

Quite possible.

[Joe]

Wow, a real live Stalin apologist, never seen one of these before. Must keep an eye on this thread, might prove to be interresting.

I hear the sound of people jumping on a bandwagon. From the first page:

I have to say I hate Stalin really much, because it was he who repressed my relatives. But this also forced me to do some research on repressions. It was pretty bad, but not the freakish uber-numbers some people are using nowadays ...

I don't know if I would call him a Stalin apologist. At no time has he denied that Stalin was genocidal or evil. He only says the numbers are exaggerated.

Whether you agree with that would depend on the way you quantify the deaths that a man should be held responsible for. The Europeans caused the reduction of the North American Native population from 100 million to less than 20 million as a result of "Manifest Destiny", but because not all of those deaths were directly inflicted by warfare, they are usually discounted. Yet we routinely include all manner of deaths as a result of famines etc. under Stalin's rule as part of his personal body count, which is rather inconsistent. I could easily accept 20 to 30 million as Stalin's body count as long as people are willing to be consistent and peg the European invaders of North America for 80 million.

Mike, that 100 million population estimate for the pre-European Indian population; where did you get it from? I'm not trying to stir up shit, I just want to know, because I've heard estimates ranging from as low as 4.5 million to 250 million.

And this is hair-splitting, probably, but Manifest Destiny as it is known historically didn't really come into existence until much of the Indian population had already been wiped out. It's a belief generally associated with Americans, not with European colonialists.

[Darth Wong]

Mike, that 100 million population estimate for the pre-European Indian population; where did you get it from? I'm not trying to stir up shit, I just want to know, because I've heard estimates ranging from as low as 4.5 million to 250 million.

NativeWeb. I'll concede that I haven't really investigated it thoroughly, although the ultra-low estimates sound like bullshit to me.

And this is hair-splitting, probably, but Manifest Destiny as it is known historically didn't really come into existence until much of the Indian population had already been wiped out. It's a belief generally associated with Americans, not with European colonialists.

OK, if we want to get the terminology right, what did the European colonialists call it?

[Nathan F]

<snip>I could easily accept 20 to 30 million as Stalin's body count as long as people are willing to be consistent and peg the European invaders of North America for 80 million.</snip>

Definitely. The Europeans were the beginning of the end for the Natives of the Americas.

Plagues, wars, famines, you name it, it probably happened to the Indians because of the Euopean colonizations.

[Joe]

NativeWeb. I'll concede that I haven't really investigated it thoroughly, although the ultra-low estimates sound like bullshit to me.

Same here.

OK, if we want to get the terminology right, what did the European colonialists call it?

Colonialism? Empire? Divine Providence?

Not that Manifest Destiny is bloodless...no one is going to doubt that a lot of Indians were killed by American westward expansion, and the same belief led to things like the brutal Filipino conquest.

[fgalkin]

1. He's a real Stalin fan.

2. He's a deluded America-hater.

3. Too much nationalist pride in russia.

4. Member of the idiot side of the anti-war movement.


Perhaps he's all of them.

I am guessing all four.

I retract that. 1, 2, and 4 are what I am am thinking.

fgalkin prooves the third to be wrong.

Not really. he has been totally brainwashed by Putin's government, but that does not mean he doesn't have pride in Russia. In fact, his claims, i.e. free press, no government opperession, etc. make Russia look more advanced than it really is, so I guess 3 is still pretty much true.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Mike, that 100 million population estimate for the pre-European Indian population; where did you get it from? I'm not trying to stir up shit, I just want to know, because I've heard estimates ranging from as low as 4.5 million to 250 million.

NativeWeb. I'll concede that I haven't really investigated it thoroughly, although the ultra-low estimates sound like bullshit to me.

NativWeb seems a bit biased to me. Perhaps a non-American academic source would be more fair.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[K. A. Pital]

fgalkin

Source, please. where exactly, did you get that from?

I quoted you the Krushev document. Should I also quote the GAFR statistics? Which were actually published in Russia, BTW.

Not really. he has been totally brainwashed by Putin's government, but that does not mean he doesn't have pride in Russia. In fact, his claims, i.e. free press, no government opperession, etc. make Russia look more advanced than it really is, so I guess 3 is still pretty much true.

I don't consider Russia too advanced. I'm living here just because I have business here.
And - as for Putin's government - it sucks pretty much. It was not able to cope well with the Chechnya (although in the end everything was taken under control). It was not able to increase the life level of Russian citizens (not speaking of Yeltsin's government, which accounts for some hugest crisis of Russia's economy). What's good that Putin could cope with the natural disasters which happened in last years, it's good.
What I think is that France-Germany-Russia position in the UN is exactly the same as my own thoughts, that's why I support them. Yes, I have some hatred, certainly not for the American people, but for their government with the idiot president.
Ignorant twit
Good math, really. Now I truly understand WTF it is. Let's look at the "partial bibliography".
One example:

Ambartsumov, Yevgeny. "Remembering the Millions that Stalin Destroyed." MOSCOW NEWS, (July, 1988), p. 12.

Wow. He uses periodicals as source... He uses BOOKS, PRESS, not documents. He uses Solzhenitsyn... You see a difference between analitics and art-literature? It's really huge. I also like the HUGE number of Western sources, which are not allowed to the archives even now. Sucked out of the finger, like everything else. If you read some of these books, you will see they just say: "On my conservative estimate" or "to my mind", without even counting the actual deaths.
I wonder, if a lie travels from book to book, does it become true?
Sea Skimmer

You made the claim you provide the proof.

I already did. What else you need? Counts of imprisoned in labor camps? I can do that, too.
Kuroneko

Collectivization/dekulakization executions: 9,500,000

Dekulakization executions, did I get you right? I still wonder, was this number of executed fixed anywhere? Or it's, again "on my conservative estimates"?

Purge of foreign and other unwanted classes: 1,000,000

Ok, that'll do.

1934-1939 repressions: 9,000,000

I wonder, weren't these repressions mentioned anywhere in a document? Were the tombs found and counted or crematory records show these numbers? This may be not so hard to believe, but still.

1940-1953 repressions: 4,000,000

Repressions of 1940-1953? 4,000,000? Where is it from?

Actually, there could have been 20.000.000 dead, but not all from Stalin's actions. I already stated that other means like starvation, famine can be counted for huge losses.

1. He's a real Stalin fan.

Nothing more stupid could be said. It's just the thing I like the truth more than lies, even if lies favor my position.

2. He's a deluded America-hater.

Not America. America's moronical leader.

3. Too much nationalist pride in russia.

Actually I'm German, but if I ever try to show national pride in Germany, people might think I'm a neo-Nazi. And, besides, I don't support some evil (but clever) dictators like Stalin or Hitler.

4. Member of the idiot side of the anti-war movement.

Even though I don't like the war, I'm not on the idiot side. I never went out on the streets to kick Mc Donalds or shout "anti-war". I just sit at home and count the dead, waiting if one will call me for war.

Perhaps he's all of them.

Or none.