Hypothetcal situations relating to cannon

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-03-18 05:02pm

(note: I've put this into SW vs ST because in #3 there is a bit that might relate to SW vs ST. Any mod that disagrees feel free to move it to PSW)

Here's a few hypothetical situation based on what could be classed as cannon:

Hypothetical Situation #1:
George Lucas goes agianst what he has already said and decides to make Episodes 7-9. He decides that the Thrawn Trilogy by Tim. Zahn will be the basis of these films. He makes the films, but there are some differences between the films and the books, which may cause some of the later books to be "wrong", for eg. Thrawns character is a human in the films.
Would these films take precedence over the books in terms of cannon and continunuity?

Hypothetical Situation #2:
Same as above, except that GL decides to let another director to do the films, allowing him a free reign over the films.
Does the fact that the films are not ultimately under the control of GL effect their status as cannon?
Note: I know that ESB and RoTJ were not directed by GL, but i assume they followed his story. What i am suggesting here is that Lucas / Lucasfilm allow another director to pretty much do what he wants with the film/story/whatever.

Hypothetical Situation #3:
GL decides to make a new film or three. However he completley disregards the books and creates his own new story, for eg. Luke, Leia, Han and Lando are all killed the day after RoTJ.
BUT in this film it is clearly shown, without a shadow of a doubt that the things that Wong, Poe, Saxton, etc. have been saying about SW technology (eg. 200GT turbolasers, multi million times c hyperdrive, etc, etc.) are completely true.
Would this be classed as cannon and the EU get slapped with the Infinities label and chucked out of the window?
What would your reaction be?
What would people like Darkstar's reaction be? Would they try to get the film labelled as "non-cannon"? Would they try and get the EU to be "more cannon" than the film(s)?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-03-18 05:11pm

Ah, good tough questions..

1) My gut instinct is books are the higher, because they are the source. However, it's Lucasfilm's call. I'd say Email them and ask.

2) No. Just like ESB and ROTJ, they are Canon.

3) Darkstar immitates a Marine I'm distantly related to, and shouts himself to death.

As for Luke and the rest, good question. I suspect, however, some author would resolve it by a cloning tech copout.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-03-18 05:12pm

#1- Films over books, always

#2- They would be cnon unless GL says they aren't I assume

#3- A very good question, I don't know about the EU being slapped with an Infinites label but it seems probable. As for the fanatical trekkies I would guess that any argument they have against a film being canon would be defeated in short order.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-03-18 05:27pm

1) GL is the top dog for SW. He says the films are canon. If he decides to make more, they override any novels, especially since the novels themselves are based on the films.

2) See #1

3) Darkstar will find SOME way of plugging his fingers in his ears and weasel out of the facts. He always has. He'll probably argue a different interpretation of the dialogue to fit his pre-ordained conclusions like he always has. Look at the Death Star. The ANH crawl says the DS has "enough power to destroy an entire planet" and look at how much weaseling he did with that quote in the debate.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2003-03-18 07:20pm

Those don't look like cannons to me at all, may be mortars.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-03-18 07:42pm

My opinion? Whichever parts of the EU are contradicted by the films are thrown out. Of course, that doesn't mean that the UNCONTRADICTED aspects of the same soure are also thrown out, that is, if Lucas were to make the Zahn trilogy into a movie trilogy, and kept true to everything EXCEPT the fact that Thrawn is a human, then only that aspect of the five Thrawn-related books would be contradicted (that is, in SOTP and VOTF, we ignore the parts where it mentions Thrawn being a non-human).

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-03-18 10:33pm

SPOOFE wrote:My opinion? Whichever parts of the EU are contradicted by the films are thrown out. Of course, that doesn't mean that the UNCONTRADICTED aspects of the same soure are also thrown out, that is, if Lucas were to make the Zahn trilogy into a movie trilogy, and kept true to everything EXCEPT the fact that Thrawn is a human, then only that aspect of the five Thrawn-related books would be contradicted (that is, in SOTP and VOTF, we ignore the parts where it mentions Thrawn being a non-human).

Does that rule change depending on how central the "flaw" is to the story, eg: if in the books, Thrawns ability only comes from his being non-human, and human Thrawn from the movies is utterly hopeless, which will take precedence.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-03-19 12:54am

SPOOFE wrote:My opinion? Whichever parts of the EU are contradicted by the films are thrown out. Of course, that doesn't mean that the UNCONTRADICTED aspects of the same soure are also thrown out, that is, if Lucas were to make the Zahn trilogy into a movie trilogy, and kept true to everything EXCEPT the fact that Thrawn is a human, then only that aspect of the five Thrawn-related books would be contradicted (that is, in SOTP and VOTF, we ignore the parts where it mentions Thrawn being a non-human).

Except in the Hand of Thrawn duology Thrawn being a Chiss played a rather important part of the story, from Flim's disguise to the nature of the soldiers @ the Hand of Thrawn base.

Besides I think if the Zahn books were made into a movie theblue skin of Thrawn would remain. Its just seems to me that the blue skin is part of the Thrawn mystique.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-03-19 04:07am

Does that rule change depending on how central the "flaw" is to the story, eg: if in the books, Thrawns ability only comes from his being non-human, and human Thrawn from the movies is utterly hopeless, which will take precedence.

Nope. If the book says that Thrawn's abilities come from being nonhuman, and a hypothetical movie said that Thrawn was human, we simply conclude that Thrawn's abilities came from something else.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-03-28 03:07am

Uhmmm....

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-03-28 03:19pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:Uhmmm....

Please don't say that's meant to be some form of witty word play.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-03-28 06:35pm

Well, come on, the "canon/cannon" screwup is extremely prevalent, and, frankly, annoying.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-03-28 06:39pm

So it's meant to be spel canon and not cannon?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-28 07:40pm

2000AD wrote:So it's meant to be spel canon and not cannon?

Correct: "canon" not "cannon" in this instance and "spell" not "spel"

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-03-29 04:04am

I didn't want to seem like I was jumping down your throat, 2000AD, and I apologize if I insulted you... but, well, it's a common mistake, and I think it's easy enough to correct. It's not really a word you use in everyday conversation, and, well, the two words are pronounced the same...

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-03-29 08:51am

2000AD wrote:Please don't say that's meant to be some form of witty word play.

No god, you're right, what have I become?
*breaks down and starts to sob*

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-03-29 10:24am

His Divine Shadow wrote:
2000AD wrote:Please don't say that's meant to be some form of witty word play.
No god, you're right, what have I become?
*breaks down and starts to sob*

LOL. I thought it was funny

Sorry 2kAD

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-03-30 06:36am

Well it was funny, but not ROTFLMAO funny, more like *slaps head and groans* funny. I just can't believe i left myself open to it! And yes i did notice the spelling error after i posted the message, and it's supposed to be "spelt" not "spel".