Question - Imperial Navy 40k Ship Design

[Boeing 757]

Greetings, SD.net frequenters:

Something that has always been of great curiosity to me is the design philosophy of Imperial starships. What I would like to know is why do Imperial ship-manufacturers incorporate seemingly useless and inefficient structures such as Imperial Eagles, skulls and cathedrals into their ship designs in universe. Out of universe freezing suspension of disbelief, Games Workshop desires to instill a specific motif reminiscent that harks back on Medieval Catholic/Byzantine European culture. Is there a plausible explanation as to why these structural features are built into Imperial ships? What greater purpose do they serve?

[Imperial Overlord]

You don't seem to grasp the setting. The religious iconography and structures aren't supposed to be efficient at anything except being religious structures and iconography in a dark age of superstition and blind faith. The every present nature of all the religious iconography and allowances is one of the visible signs that the Imperium is in a state of decay.

[Esquire]

Symbolism protects from Warp corruption by reinforcing order, the Imperial Cult (which, as a composite religion, stole shamelessly from older ones), and subconscious human-ness? Putting symbols on the hull are outwards-facing deterrents to Chaos attackers, as well as a visual display of allegiance?

[Imperial Overlord]

Symbolism protects from Warp corruption by reinforcing order, the Imperial Cult (which, as a composite religion, stole shamelessly from older ones), and subconscious human-ness? Putting symbols on the hull are outwards-facing deterrents to Chaos attackers, as well as a visual display of allegiance?

None of which were needed in 30K or prevents Gellar field loss while in the warp from being potentially catastrophic.

[Esquire]

Fair enough; I don't know 40k massively well.

[Boeing 757]

You don't seem to grasp the setting. The religious iconography and structures aren't supposed to be efficient at anything except being religious structures and iconography in a dark age of superstition and blind faith. The every present nature of all the religious iconography and allowances is one of the visible signs that the Imperium is in a state of decay.

Interesting...and you say that 30k ships did not have any iconography or any of the religious symbolism evident on the ships? I never saw it from the perspective of decay, but yeah that makes much sense all in all.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You don't seem to grasp the setting. The religious iconography and structures aren't supposed to be efficient at anything except being religious structures and iconography in a dark age of superstition and blind faith. The every present nature of all the religious iconography and allowances is one of the visible signs that the Imperium is in a state of decay.

Interesting...and you say that 30k ships did not have any iconography or any of the religious symbolism evident on the ships? I never saw it from the perspective of decay, but yeah that makes much sense all in all.

Trying to make sense of Warhammer 40K is like asking why Humans do what they do, really. A lot of symbolism is a result of the dominance of the Imperial Truth cult. Never mind that the even the Mechanicus isn't freed of its Omissiah cult stuff.

[Sea Skimmer]

It more hawks back to the early-mid gunpowder warfare era I reckon. Very early warships tended not to have much decoration because they were not typically all that big, though almost nothing is known of the really big Greek and Roman galleys which did not rely on ramming (ramming requires maximum possible speed, thus very low weight, to have any chance of ever ramming anything). Like 200AD-130AD though nobody was building big warships, and since wooden carvings get very heavy very quickly that rules out going crazy.

As far as anyone can tell, last I checked, were pretty sure the main reason people stopped decorating ships heavily in the mid ship of the line era was literally that the topweight became too much even for several thousand ton ships, they needed the mass for more cannons and more superstructure to hold said cannons. Cost was probably not the main factor though it was pretty high, even today making paint that withstands salt water is hard. For most of naval history command ships at least were heavily decorated, and it was considered undesirable to command a force without an impressive ship to inspire the men. In space topweight has no meaning....so its only a cost issue to hold you back.

This is a more or less accurate model of the Soleil Royal from 1670, its pretty epic, and it's still not as elaborate in proportion to the Vasa.
[img]http://www.stephensandkenau.com/wp-cont ... ew.jpg[img]

As far as in universe goes, its all about propaganda, and at least for a space ship to be brightly colored and elaborate its not strictly speaking a clear disadvantage in combat (the mass would reduce acceleration, but it may also serve as some kind of armor). The Space Marines running around in bright colors and carrying tall banners meanwhile are actually putting themselves at a significant disadvantage.

[Q99]

Symbolism protects from Warp corruption by reinforcing order, the Imperial Cult (which, as a composite religion, stole shamelessly from older ones), and subconscious human-ness? Putting symbols on the hull are outwards-facing deterrents to Chaos attackers, as well as a visual display of allegiance?

None of which were needed in 30K or prevents Gellar field loss while in the warp from being potentially catastrophic.

It's not needed, but it's still their reasoning and probably does have a degree of psychological effect.

I mean, the Imperial Cult has basically replaced better, more stable ways of handling things. Now that everyone is fearful and fanatic they have different needs than when they were actually stable.

[Alkaloid]

Look at the ships that have it as well. The escorts, like the Cobra class destroyers are relatively sparsely decorated. The really ornate ships don't stsrt appearing until you get to cruisers and larger. That those scales ships really are the ultimste expression of Imperial might, able to render entite planets uninhabitable by themselves. Symbolism isn't so out of place there.

Plus the entire naval system is based off the age of sail, and like Skimmer said...



Not entirely unprecedented.

[NecronLord]

I mean, the Imperial Cult has basically replaced better, more stable ways of handling things. Now that everyone is fearful and fanatic they have different needs than when they were actually stable.

More stable? The Imperial Truth was far less stable, really.

[Darth Tanner]

Were Imperial ships less decorated in the 30K period? Most of the ships in service today (atleast the bigger ones) were in service then too... most of the art of ships I can see by googling Horus Heresey space battle appears to show the ships with similar levels of giant gold eagles and statue work.

[Lord Revan]

Were Imperial ships less decorated in the 30K period? Most of the ships in service today (atleast the bigger ones) were in service then too... most of the art of ships I can see by googling Horus Heresey space battle appears to show the ships with similar levels of giant gold eagles and statue work.

The Death Guard flagship had huge relief skull on it and the horus heresy books depict other imperial ships with decorations as well.

[Darth Tanner]

I suppose another interesting one is a lot of the really big imperial ships even predate the imperium and yet they also have giant eagles and skulls ect... did the golden age of technology humans also have a thing for giant eagles or have they done sufficient work on these rare ships that they can't build but apparently can rework the superstructure enough to feature giant cathedrals and eagles.

[AniThyng]

I suppose another interesting one is a lot of the really big imperial ships even predate the imperium and yet they also have giant eagles and skulls ect... did the golden age of technology humans also have a thing for giant eagles or have they done sufficient work on these rare ships that they can't build but apparently can rework the superstructure enough to feature giant cathedrals and eagles.

So long as mass and cost is not an issue they can add all the external cladding and greeblies they want...

[NecronLord]

I'm pretty sure that for things like the Divine Right, the eagles and skulls aren't original to the pre imperial spaceframe.

[Q99]

Yea, every ancient ship would have gone through a lot of work.

Chaos ships should be a better indication of older ships.

[Darth Tanner]

Chaos ships should be a better indication of older ships.

I've never quite understood the design choice there for Chaos ships, they bare no resemblance to Imperial designs at all, its not even a problem that Chaos took off the gribbles and replaced them with demons, the actual hull doesn't even conform to the same shape or theme, the idea that the Imperial fleet looked like Chaos ships doesn't really stand together at all when considering the general theme of a big armoured prow being pretty universal amongst all imperial ships.

[Elheru Aran]

Chaos ships should be a better indication of older ships.

I've never quite understood the design choice there for Chaos ships, they bare no resemblance to Imperial designs at all, its not even a problem that Chaos took off the gribbles and replaced them with demons, the actual hull doesn't even conform to the same shape or theme, the idea that the Imperial fleet looked like Chaos ships doesn't really stand together at all when considering the general theme of a big armoured prow being pretty universal amongst all imperial ships.

Apart from most naval artwork dating from older editions of the game, when Battlefleet Gothic was still a thing... in universe it's (somewhat) explainable by the various Legions largely doing their own thing during the Crusade. As such, they developed their own distinctive styles to some degree. We also have to remember that the Legions -were- the Imperial military to a far greater degree during the Heresy than they are now, and their forces were effectively the entire Imperial starfleet.

So you get stuff like the White Scars hot-rodding their ships, the Raven Guard going nuts on stealth, etc. So to me it's not that far of a stretch to assume that perhaps the Legions that turned to Chaos deliberately chose older and more proven designs for their conquest fleets, and the loyalist Legions for whatever reason were issued newer craft.

[Imperial Overlord]

In universe the differences are based on the Imperials changing the design they used in favor of more heavily armoured and shielded prows with forward special weapon batteries when technology loss made construction of long range heavy gun batteries fewer and fewer shipyards could reliable build. The design aesthetic isn't really that different (once you remove all the eight pointed stars and giant eagles, the skulls can stay because you know, everyone uses them) once you account for the armoured prow. Some of the grand cruiser designs straddle the divide.

[Q99]

Yea, the adoption of Armored Prow doctrine (which probably existed in 30k, but in much smaller numbers) is a large basis for the design shift- and frankly it's a very tactically effective doctrine to boot.

Also, some of the reason old ships look the same is good ol' "we forgot things were supposed to look different back then," thing.