Spiderman Homecoming (Spoilers)

[Alkaloid]

Saw it tonight.

Kind of a return to form for the MCU, really. Reliably funny, Stark and Parker are excellent foils as characters and there's thankfully some consistency in their relationship between this movie and Civil War. The villian was a step up from the usual MCU villains as well, somewhat sympathetic and relatively menacing to a freshly minted superhero who's still hitting his straps.

The school scenes work, partly because they are very verbal, but no one speaks like kids, or even people. It's to the point where I'd not be surprised to learn Aaron Sorkin wrote the dialogue for them. I like this characterisation of MJ as well, even if I can't shake my mental image of her always being the bubbly popular redhead.

The highlight of the film really has to be Karen though. Most bloodthirsty AI since Ultron that one. Also weirdly invested in getting Peter to hook up with some

[Coop D'etat]

Its a good movie, well acted, funny, the third act is suprisingly tense at points and it makes excellent use of the wider universe without the setting overpowering the story. Strong use of a big cast of minor characters to make the world feel lived in, and fit the point that this is a "friendly, neighbourhood Spider-man." The innocent bystanders matter as individuals with their own stories and characters, not disposable or faceless abstractions.

The theme of the damage wrote by the neglect of the distantly powerful is both topical and interesting and connects the hero and villian storylines until they come together.

If I had a complaint, its that it only tries to be a good small story that introduces its hero at the start of his broader ark and lacked the ambition to try to be a great story. It felt more like the back-to-back pilot episodes of strong television series rather than a good stand alone film. A lot like if you blew up a good episode of Specactular Spider-man to 2 hours of run time. That isn't a horrible thing, but it didn't try to be a rival to a great film like Spider-man 2.

Tony Stark is a mediocre mentor that thinks he's a great mentor because he's repeating his father's mistakes while trying not to. Its a terrific use of his established character. They also used him very well as a public figure that influences the hero and villian (who are both start out their journey by emulating their own idea of what Stark is), without having the actual character too involved. It ends up using Iron Man just the right amount for the story, without making it at all his story rather than Parker's.

[PREDATOR490]

7/10

The best Spiderman movie out of all of them and a decent entry into the Marvel universe. It did come across as being fairly timid in setting and scope but it kinda works.
New York is getting hilariously packed full of heroes to the point they should logically be tripping over each other on a regular basis without big events attracting them like flies on shit.

Apparently Tony Stark is moving out of the area which I wonder if this is a sort of acknowledgement of how the Avengers tower literally acts as a massive damper on every other hero in that city. New York is big, but things do not have to escalate far before someone starts wondering why an Avenger like Stark does not come in.
If anything, this movie kinda solidified that by how quick Stark's reaction times were to Spiderman being in trouble and how things escalated from Spiderman dealing with street crime until the main villain was playing with powerful weapons and gunning for Avenger operations.

This is by far my biggest issue with Marvel Universe as a whole. The attempt to create a continuous universe is certainly ambitious and has worked reasonably well but it is does seem to be getting reckless and sloppy with that continuity. Agents of Shield stand as a monumental testament to that fact. I am curious to see if the Defenders and anything they do is going to equally be ignored by the greater MU.


Technology -

AI in Spiderman suit - That was just weird and I really think that was a BIG mistake. I suppose this allows the actor to actually voice lines when he is in CGI mode, allow him to monologue to himself and have a plot nudge machine. That said, the AI's that Tony Stark keeps building are into the boundaries for the Uncanny Valley.
When Spiderman was naming the AI I was half expecting him to name it Mary-Jane... just because that would have been both a massive head spinner and the banter was getting into relationship material.

It amuses me no to no end that even in a film that is about Spiderman, this film managed to make a case for Tony Stark's greatest achievement being his ability to create AI that could revolutionise the world that would marginalise almost all of the Avengers.
Ultron was obviously a gigantic fuck-up when trying to make a global AI but producing massively toned down Jarvis / Fridays / Karen's could easily end up with Star Wars levels of droid armies.

[Vendetta]

This is by far my biggest issue with Marvel Universe as a whole. The attempt to create a continuous universe is certainly ambitious and has worked reasonably well but it is does seem to be getting reckless and sloppy with that continuity. Agents of Shield stand as a monumental testament to that fact. I am curious to see if the Defenders and anything they do is going to equally be ignored by the greater MU.

Yes. They are going to be ignored. The best thing to do is to treat them as three completely seperate entities.

Maybe four when Inhumans starts, though that might cross over with Agents of Shield.


Chances are Spider-Man is also going to be relatively seperate, building towards its own big deal event (Sinister Six).

[Coop D'etat]

The best decision they made about the suit was how it was more an over-complication and hinderance to Peter than an asset, he was at his most effecitve at the end relying on himself and his ordinary webshooters rather than bogged down with technological options. Its works to have him try to be Iron Man 3.0 if the subtext is that this is a mistake and he grows into something different. Similarly, the AI doesn't fit the character that well, but it gives Spider-man someone to talk to and insight into what he's thinking (plus quipage) if they figured the traditional Spider-man stream of consciousness voice over doesn't work in live action like it does in cartoon series. More than most superheroes, Spider-man works best if you have a means of being inside his head to see his decision making process.

I think the quick reaction thing was mainly about how they were monitoring Spider-man through his suit, probably with AI alerts for to flag for danger.

I think its fair to say the movie half of the MCU is more or less ignoring the TV side at this point. Their under seperate management and don't seem to talk that much. The film side has the much stronger creative talent and direction anyways, so I wouldn't want to hang the more pedestrian decisions TV is making on the film series.

[Mr Bean]

Watched it today fun movie but damn the cringe moments were hard to watch, but the jokes are great, can't say it enough the Peter Parker as training wheels Spiderman is amazing.

[biostem]

I'm curious - Spiderman held his own against both Falcon and Winter Soldier in Civil War, and even took on Cap and Giant Man. I know there was a throw-away line about "If Cap had wanted you dead, you'd be dead", or something to that effect, but can that really explain why Vulture was so difficult for him?

[Coop D'etat]

I'm curious - Spiderman held his own against both Falcon and Winter Soldier in Civil War, and even took on Cap and Giant Man. I know there was a throw-away line about "If Cap had wanted you dead, you'd be dead", or something to that effect, but can that really explain why Vulture was so difficult for him?

In Civil War, he's presented as a pretty heavy hitter in terms of straight up power and clever when presented with an unexpected situation no one was prepared for against the giant Ant-man. He takes out Falcon and Bucky at the start by being way stronger and faster than the both of them. Problem is he's completely inexperienced and untrained. This is how Falcon squeeked a tie out of what should have been a straight up victory by Spider-man by suckering him with Redwing, and how a much physically weaker Cap beats him with better tactics and understanding of how to use physics in a fight. Also after his initial dominance as an unexpected threat to Cap's team, he's no where near as effective in general after they've seen what he can do and adapt to it.

Spider-man is basically the superhero equivalent of a 6'4" 250 lbs farm hand pressed into battle. Dangerous due to his power, weak from a lack of understanding of how to get the most out of it. This is exerbated by operating solo instead of under the supervision and command of people who know what they are doing. So he struggles against the older and cagier Vulture.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, basically, Vulture knows what he's doing, has a good deal of experience (he certainly seems very comfortable using his flight-suit), and is quite happy to -not- hold back. It has to be remembered that everybody was holding back to some degree in the Civil War fight-- nobody wanted to actually hurt anybody else in that fight, except maybe Black Panther and I don't remember him doing much in the airport fight. If they had been in all-out kill-each-other mode, it would've gotten really nasty very fast, like the last Iron Man-Cap-Bucky fight went. Nobody was nearly as bloodied at the end of the airport fight as they were after that last fight, apart from Rhodes and that was a friendly-fire accident.

Anyway, watched this last night.

Verdict: Pretty decent. Certainly better than the Garfield movies. I like that they went with a younger actor, though it does make his recruitment by Stark a little more sketchy. It gives you some wiggle room for the kid, because he's an idiot sometimes, but what kid isn't? So you can understand some of his bad decisions because he's still young and irresponsible, versus Tobey Maguire being 20-something (well, after the first Raimi movie anyway). I also liked how they made him more of a nerd, we never really saw much of that angle in the other movies. Trying to figure out the alien tech, hacking his suit, being part of the academic decathlon team, etc...

Also approve of how they had a lot of minorities in the movie. I mean, maybe it's obvious, I dunno, but it's about time they had more of that, you know? So that's nice.

I had more thoughts but I lost them. Oh well, maybe they'll come back later.

[Crazedwraith]

I just got back from seeing Spider-Man: Homecoming, I’m still pretty amped up from it. So it definitely did something write. I’m a sourpuss and loathe to admit it but it is all things considered it’s probably to best Spider-Man movie that’s been made yet. On average.

By which I mean it’s consistently very good throughout. But, it’s not as good as the best bits of say… ASM2 for me. And it’s never as bad as the say… the bad bits of ASM2. It’s just very good.

It fits very well into the MCU and continues smoothly from Pete’s part in Civil War. It even includes bits of the events of Civil War Pete was filming on his cell camera. And it sticks with Pete’s character from that film. Dorky well-meaning teenager who’s over his head. This works for a team movie but it’s not as good for a solo one IMO. The thing about Spider-Man solo comics that I recall is the Peter Parker is the dorky shy one and Spider-Man is a confident wise-cracking motormouth. They don’t quite capture that aspect to him in this film.

There are multiple plot threads in the film; The Vultures weapons business. Spider-man trying to foil it. Tony’s crappy mentoring and Peter Parker’s social life and they all intermingle and flow along together effectively.

Micheal Keaton’s Vulture is very good. Both in costume design and in character. The twist with him, that’s Liz’s father worked extremely well as did the drive to the dance. The final scenes of spidey saving him and Vulture keeping dumb about who Spidey is effectively echo what he says there. “I saved your life. You owe me.”

Tony is… a crappy mentor and I’m not sure how much the film knows this. He gives Peter a super-suit with lots and bells and whistles and then gets pissed off with him for using it. He chides him for not knowing about an FBI investigation, he was never told about.

I’m very glad Peter was in ‘his’ costume in the finale. And that Iron Man entirely absent from the action aside from two rescue films, help keeps it a Spider-Man solo film as it should be.

Minor Gripe: Spidey’s spidersense is once again mostly ignored. Despite it being featured in CW. In most continuity it doesn’t let him slip up like he does here with his secret identity. Twice! (On the other hand I hope any sequels keep it explicit that Aunt May knows who he is.) Another gripe: Aunt May is underused.

I think the biggest flaw I see with the film is that it’s a quasi-origin film. They keep rebooting spidey. They never let him be the mature hero that can really strut his stuff power wide.

Still a very competent, very worth expansion to the MCU. I liked it, I thought it was very good. I’d shy away from calling it Amazing.

[Elheru Aran]

Tony is… a crappy mentor and I’m not sure how much the film knows this. He gives Peter a super-suit with lots and bells and whistles and then gets pissed off with him for using it. He chides him for not knowing about an FBI investigation, he was never told about.

Yeah, this was definitely one of my impressions as well. The film is -somewhat- aware of it, I think-- Peter does get pawned off to Happy, who is less than pleased about it and basically ignores most of what Peter tries to tell him about, even as Tony tries to assure him that he'll 'take care of it'. Then Tony tries to make up by it by offering him the fancy Iron-Spider suit, and is surprised when Peter actually does the responsible thing and refuses; a good mentor would actually have known (or been pretty sure) he was going to do that and have a plan B for the press conference.

But at the same time, it really glamorizes Stark to a large degree, I think. I can see that being somewhat "that's how Peter sees him" working on the story-- he's a young geek working for his equivalent of Elon Musk, of course he's going to idolize the guy. I think it weakens the plot a bit, though.

[Civil War Man]

But at the same time, it really glamorizes Stark to a large degree, I think. I can see that being somewhat "that's how Peter sees him" working on the story-- he's a young geek working for his equivalent of Elon Musk, of course he's going to idolize the guy. I think it weakens the plot a bit, though.

Peter idolizing Stark makes a lot of sense if you subscribe to the fan theory (which at least Holland has endorsed) that Peter Parker was the kid in the Iron Man mask that Stark saves in Iron Man 2. Going by the timeline in the movie (Homecoming taking place 8 years after The Avengers, Parker being 14), the ages do roughly work out.

[Coop D'etat]

Tony is… a crappy mentor and I’m not sure how much the film knows this. He gives Peter a super-suit with lots and bells and whistles and then gets pissed off with him for using it. He chides him for not knowing about an FBI investigation, he was never told about.

Yeah, this was definitely one of my impressions as well. The film is -somewhat- aware of it, I think-- Peter does get pawned off to Happy, who is less than pleased about it and basically ignores most of what Peter tries to tell him about, even as Tony tries to assure him that he'll 'take care of it'. Then Tony tries to make up by it by offering him the fancy Iron-Spider suit, and is surprised when Peter actually does the responsible thing and refuses; a good mentor would actually have known (or been pretty sure) he was going to do that and have a plan B for the press conference.

But at the same time, it really glamorizes Stark to a large degree, I think. I can see that being somewhat "that's how Peter sees him" working on the story-- he's a young geek working for his equivalent of Elon Musk, of course he's going to idolize the guy. I think it weakens the plot a bit, though.

I think that not only is the flm aware of Stark being a bad mentor, its a key element of both the theme they were going for and an essential character element. Stark's way to distant and preoccupied to put the necessary time into training Parker, just as he's distant and preoccuppied in dealing with cleaning up after Avenger's fights. At the same time, he's this hugely prominant figure within the story's universe and Spider-man and the Vulure's parallel each other by emulating what they perceive Stark to be (cool superhero and amoral arms-dealer respectively).

Likewise, I don't think it weakens the plot to have Peter idolize Tony. The entire plot is about how he naturally idolizes someone who is on the surface the ideal role-model for a superpowered young genius and his character arc is about moving past that to do things on his own terms.

[Q99]

And it looks like Homecoming is getting pretty standard 60% dropoff rather than extra good hold like people were hoping for from the good reviews. So it's looking quite solid, but in no danger of threatening WW. About as much take as Amazing 1, but with less budget.

[wautd]

This is probably my favorite Spiderman movie so far. Funny and action packed, great villain and Peter being vurnerable/often failing gave made the action scenes tense.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

That's the thing with the timelines that bugged me- I thought Avengers took was set the year it was released (2012), and same deal with Civil War. Last time I checked, Avengers was only 5 years ago? Is there some time skip I'm unaware of and it's 2020 already?

Both Stark and Parker were clutching that Idiot Ball hard. HISHE's gonna have a field day with this one. Got an enemy with a high-tech suit and you're moving a (cloaked, unmanned) plane full of ARC reactors with no active security? What could possibly go wrong? Hogan would have gotten fired for that one!

The biggest question I have though is this: WHERE THE FUCK WAS SHIELD? You've got enemies fucking around with Chitauri-derived weapons and you decide the FBI was somehow more qualified to handle things?

At least Peter was smart enough to familiarise himself with the suit while trapped in that facility. For the "most secure place on the Eastern Seaboard", he didn't have much trouble escaping, or have to get by any CCTV cameras.

[Crazedwraith]

As far as the movies are concerned SHIELD is dead since Winter Soldier.

During Agents Season 4 they were redeemed again sort of but have been discredit again by the end.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

As far as the movies are concerned SHIELD is dead since Winter Soldier.

During Agents Season 4 they were redeemed again sort of but have been discredit again by the end.

It was very much alive during the aftermath of the Battle of New York, why they weren't called in there is anybody's guess.

[Crazedwraith]

As far as the movies are concerned SHIELD is dead since Winter Soldier.

During Agents Season 4 they were redeemed again sort of but have been discredit again by the end.

It was very much alive during the aftermath of the Battle of New York, why they weren't called in there is anybody's guess.

Fair point. I don't clean up is really a law enforcement spy agencies job though. Having a dedicated company Damage Control seems the way to go.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

As far as the movies are concerned SHIELD is dead since Winter Soldier.

During Agents Season 4 they were redeemed again sort of but have been discredit again by the end.

It was very much alive during the aftermath of the Battle of New York, why they weren't called in there is anybody's guess.

Fair point. I don't clean up is really a law enforcement spy agencies job though. Having a dedicated company Damage Control seems the way to go.

Apparently Department of Damage Control is a Stark Industries subsidiary; I'd still expect some level of SHIELD supervision though, what with it being Chitauri tech and all

[PREDATOR490]

Agents of Shield does have a throwaway line about Damage Control cleaning up a mess caused.

It would be nice to think this was intentional, but more likely it is a coincidence which could be retroactively used to further muddy the waters about Agents of Shield's standing in the greater MU.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The HISHE is up now- 3:07 basically echoes what I said earlier:

I hadn't noticed the Keaton-Batman connection until seeing this!

[The Romulan Republic]

Keaton fucking made this movie for me. Very solid performance. The MCU has a shortage of memorable villains, in my experience (less so on TV than in the films), with Loki being the only really memorable film villain until recently (and even that's almost entirely due to the actor, not the writing, in my opinion), at least for me. Keaton probably makes the top four or five just on his performance, and the resolution of his story.

It was pretty good overall- not a flawless plot, but some effective suspense, an interesting and fairly unconventional resolution for the villain, and some decent performances.

Tony is a shitty mentor, but to his credit, he seems to be somewhat aware of that. A nice subtle call back to Iron Man 3, when Tony tells Spidey that if you're nothing without the suit, you don't deserve to have it.

Surprising that Happy had such a large role, I guess, but it worked.