These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

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SolarpunkFan
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These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by SolarpunkFan »

[OP: the topic title is from the article, not me.]

https://www.wired.com/story/batman-joker-villain/
Batman has been a hero for decades, constantly saving Gotham City from mad men and murderers. But take away the cape and noble purpose and he's actually a terror—someone capable of causing as much damage as he prevents. And seen through the lens of the 21st century, a time when it's understood that vigilante justice is dangerous, Bruce Wayne's actions don't look much more safe or sane than the Joker's. And in his next incarnation, they're not.

For Batman: White Knight, writer-illustrator Sean Murphy (The Wake, Punk Rock Jesus) created a version of Gotham with real, modern-day problems, and then let Batman solve them by making him the villain. How? In the comic mini-series' alternate-reality, it's the Joker—cured of his insanity—who sees that Bruce Wayne is just another part of the city's vicious cycle of crime and sets out to stop him.

"My main goal was to undo the comic tropes while changing Gotham from a comic book city into a real city—a city dealing with everything from Black Lives Matter to the growing wage gap," Murphy says. "[But] rather than write a comic about the wage gap, I gave those ideas to the Joker, who leads a kind of media war against Gotham's elite by winning people over with his potent observations and rhetoric."

Despite the fact that their roles are reversed, having heroes and villains who exist as a response to the current political climate is very much on-brand for Batman. For nearly eight decades the Joker and Dark Knight have faced off in the comics and onscreen, and each time, whether they're brooding or cartoonish, they've come to represent the kind of good or bad guys their audience needs. In the 1940s, when the Joker was introduced in Batman #1, the idea of having a masked vigilante face-punching foes seemed like a good way to fight crime. But in the decades since, society has learned that's not always the best course of action. "It's sexy to think crime can be stopped with a fist, but the real solution is a lot more boring than that: education, increasing wages, and building trust," Murphy says. "The line Batman rides between 'noble vigilante' and 'overzealous oppressor' will always be shifting as our own society changes."

And much like the creators of history's various Batmen have changed him with the times, they've also updated the Joker to suit his environs. Over the years, he's been a sadistic psychopath and a giggling, greedy comedian depending on the story's—and the zeitgeist's—demands. That's been true in the comic books and onscreen. The original murderous conception of the character by Bill Finger and Jerry Robinson had to be toned when the Comics Code Authority was established in 1954, but in the 1970s the dark, murderous Joker came back. More recently, he's reflected the outlandishness of the 1980s thanks to Jack Nicholson's portrayal in Tim Burton's Batman, and the existential dread of the new millennium via Heath Ledger's performance in The Dark Knight.

And Murphy's latest version, which will hit comic book stores Oct. 4, is just as apropos. At a time when protectors fail to protect and propaganda has immense power, very few stories—in comics, at least—could be more of-the-moment than a series that shows Batman's vigilantism as part of a vicious cycle and the Joker's charisma as a marketing tool for his brand of justice.

"We know the Joker is a genius, we know he's relentless, and we know he can play the crowd, so why not make him a politician?" Murphy asks. "Frank Miller modeled him after David Bowie. Chris Nolan showed him as a controlled sociopath. I see the Joker as Don Draper."
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by FaxModem1 »

Hmm, this reminds me of when they had fans of the Joker protesting as if they were part of Occupy Wall Street, it seemed tasteless and out of touch with reality. I hope this version is better. But it sounds like it will ultimately have Batman's 'I have to fight and can't give to the poor' be eventually justified. That's what almost always happens when the Joker is on the side of the downtrodden.

Honestly, this is why Green Arrow has always been one of my favorites, as he focuses on doing what he can to make Star City better, and has always been a champion for the poor and downtrodden.

I will also note that depending on the incarnation, there are versions of Batman who help out the lower classes with charity and giving them the second chance they need. There was an entire montage about this at the end of Batman: Fugitive, wherein we see all the various people of Gotham who are rebuilding their lives thanks to Batman's fighting and Bruce Wayne's helping.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

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As usual, the actual comics arms of Marvel and DC continue their march into irrelevance when the opportunity to cross market has never been greater. I'm assuming this is some sort of once-off thing and they're trying to grab headlines with controversy.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

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This sounds idiotic. Batman doesn't exist on "New York, Earth, year of our Lord 2017." He exists in a bizarro world where even your standard mooks all seem to be packing Uzis, the mob runs everything, and a cop NOT being handed thousands of dollars of bribe money in public is seen as weird. A world where people like the Joker can operate as publicly and brazenly as he does and he only has to deal with The Batman. The FBI, National Guard, or even standard military seem to not exist.

Because how long do you think the U.S. would sit around and do nothing the second someone like Poison Ivy shows up, or Bane, or (good lord) Killer Croc? Real-world police forces tend to act punitively to public nuisances not to mention open warfare in the streets. If honest to God monsters were showing up?

So, yea. If Batman showed up in Houston and started beating up muggers, that's another story all together. But Batman needs to exist because everyone else is so fucking useless. If they WEREN'T useless, then there would be no need for him or his comic books. Also, making "The Joker" not "The Joker" makes him "Not The Joker." So why even bother? I don't want to see collected and mundane Joker because that's fucking mornonic.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by Zixinus »

I have to agree with TheFenix here: the insanity of Gotham isn't that there is borderline superhuman with massive resources and inhuman levels of training running around handling crime one faced punched at the time. The insanity that this is actually working against the problem. Rather than arrested or shot on the first few episodes. Gotham is not a city that could actually exist, I mean think about it: if you had regular hero-villain showdowns every other month or year, with that high violent crime rate, would you stay there? Especially as a business, a business that gives people jobs and which people come to? Hell no, businesses would leave for less insane cities and the people with them. Th real surprise of Gotham is that the city still has actual people and not simply abandoned to rot by people who do not want to be victim of the next super-eccentric crimewave.

As for "you can't really solve crime by punching it in the face", of course not! That's the whole point of superhero fiction, to take all the frustrations and problems that modern life has and put them into a cartoon of villain who can be punched in the face in a morally justified and cathartic way. Making the villain a sane human (which the Joker cannot be, he is always somehow a criminal beyond salvation) being in a real city and putting them against a comic-universe Batman is like dropping a terminal cancer patient into a sitcom. It makes no sense.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Sounds like a clumsy attempt to be edgy and clever by making Batman the villain. Or, as discussed above, it'll turn into "Batman was really right all along, fuck the law, fuck the poor".

That said, you could absolutely argue that Batman, and most superheroes, are villains, depending on circumstances (though no remotely faithful depiction of the Joker would ever be anything other than a monster). Vigilantism is deplorable under most circumstances. The exception would be a scenario of either extreme anarchy or extreme autocracy- a despotic society where justice and the rule of law had utterly broken down.

Of course, even then, the vigilante isn't necessarily the good guy. It depends on what the vigilante does, and why.

Their are three things that keep Batman from being like most of the villains he fights:

1. Absence of a functioning legal system in Gotham.

2. Motive. Probably varies by incarnation somewhat, but I like the version from the No Man's Land novelization, who is ultimately driven by an arguably compulsive need to save lives, to prevent anyone else from suffering the tragedy he did. Hence the fixation on the no-killing rule. Which brings me to the third point.

3. A self-imposed code of conduct that he adheres to, central to which is the no killing rule (again, this varies by incarnation). Some of his villains may have this to an extent, but the Joker generally does not.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by TheFeniX »

Just read the opening lines:
But take away the cape and noble purpose and he's actually a terror—someone capable of causing as much damage as he prevents. And seen through the lens of the 21st century, a time when it's understood that vigilante justice is dangerous, Bruce Wayne's actions don't look much more safe or sane than the Joker's. And in his next incarnation, they're not.
"BAD PEOPLE WITH POWER WHO DO BAD ARE BAD. If Batman were evil, he'd be like The Joker." Thrilling observations there Spock.

The cape part is a non-starter. It's been established that even without the cape: Batman is Batman. But he's essentially saying "take away what makes Batman The Batman AND HE'S NOT BATMAN ANYMORE." Hope that... (what fucking degree do hacks like this go with... whatever) degree is paying off.
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2017-07-11 04:45pmThat said, you could absolutely argue that Batman, and most superheroes, are villains, depending on circumstances (though no remotely faithful depiction of the Joker would ever be anything other than a monster). Vigilantism is deplorable under most circumstances. The exception would be a scenario of either extreme anarchy or extreme autocracy- a despotic society where justice and the rule of law had utterly broken down.
You've just described Gotham. So many cops are on the take, Gordan is looked at as a potential rat for NOT taking money. And in fact STILL touts the blue wall "I ain't no rat" line. He's just as culpable. Batman's love interest is about to be mob-murdered just for being a little mouthy and sniffing around too much. She's a prosecutor. This is presented as routine.

Given the state of Gotham in the Nolan series alone, I see no reason a state of emergency would not have been declared. Essentially, habeas corpus: poof. Martial law: yay! Those with money bail, those without pray they don't get caught in the cross-fire as FBI, ATF, and whoever else starts tearing the city and the police department apart to clean it up. While that's going on, Batman style "vigilantism" would be the norm as the military kicks ass and take names later.

And I bet money a whole shitload more innocent people eat dirt than if Batman just kept punching doods.

Batman just beat them to the punch because he knew how bad Gotham was. But I ignore that most days because "It's Batman, there's nothing realistic about this setting." I'm not a fan of Batman's methods (even scumbags have rights and protections), but if my city were that bad and no one was doing anything to even try and fix the situation (not even external agents), I would be hard-pressed to label Batman as anything other than a "Hero," especially since one guy (+ a few supporting characters) can get THAT kind of result.

But most vigilantes and groups I've read about started out noble and quickly slide down into brutal murderin' with a fair amount of rape on the side. Batman doesn't do that, because he's Batman. EDIT: Because he's a hero. When the law has failed this badly, sometimes you do have to kick some ass. Real people are terrible at it and descend into brutality. Batman does not because he's not real, he's written. And he's written near always to be a hero.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by Q99 »

Another note on Batman is, of course, he hands the villains in to custody. Part of the no-kill thing isn't letting them go, it's letting the legal system, the people, decide what happens next.

I'll also comment that most heroes really don't fill the role of vigilantes and are often part of legally existing organizations. Avengers, JLA, X-men, Teen Titans, they have legal status. It really tends to be the street levelers who have these murky roles.
GuppyShark wrote: 2017-07-11 05:14am As usual, the actual comics arms of Marvel and DC continue their march into irrelevance when the opportunity to cross market has never been greater. I'm assuming this is some sort of once-off thing and they're trying to grab headlines with controversy.
The thing about cross-media stuff? It rarely results in much, like movies may bring in some people but it's at a trickle, attempts to capitalize on it, which aren't rare, don't draw as much as one'd thing, meanwhile comics had a roughly 20 year growth swing accompanied by countless 'comics are dying,' narratives (things have plateaued over the last year or two, but the number of physical comic stores have about doubled since the late 90s). Really, the comics are where you see the most experimental stuff, most cross-examination of the genre's narratives, and so on.


Villain Batman? It's been done, a fair amount. Good Joker has also been done (though 'Countdown' really wasted an opportunity in killing off the Jokester). Heck, there's a series about villain Superman, 'Injustice,' which has been running for years now. DC's also done comics about Vigilantes who start out well meaning, kill not-evil people by mistaken, and eventually commit suicide under the weight of their guilt- not every comic comes out on the 'heroes are justified' side by a long shot.

"Does Batman actually contribute to the existence of supervillains"? The 90s Batman animated series touched on that, as does plenty of Batman comics.

One of the ironies of comics is people from outside of comics often criticize it for not doing stuff it not only does, but has tapped into quite heavily. Sometimes driven into the ground even.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by Lord Revan »

The difference between bad vigilant style super heroes that have little to no powers and Batman, is that bad ones tend to act as "judge, jury and executioner", with few exceptions (either due it being an elseworld story or the writer just not getting the character) Batman isn't this, he beats up and captures criminals for sure but then drops them off at police station generally with evidence of their wrong doings. Key difference being that Batman doesn't think he should be one to pass judgement but rather he gives the super villains to the authorities, it's not his fault it's harder to escapte from wet cardboard box then from Arkham.

Something that's actually seems to similar with Superman and Batman is that they're both quite obsessed at following their own set of rules on what they can and cannot do.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by Q99 »

Though I like when it's noted that while Superman has rules, he's less strict about them. That is to say, Batman is quite worried about what he'd turn into if he crosses the line because he knows his own instincts aren't entirely reliable. Meanwhile, Superman more just gravitates towards good due to his strong moral compass, and thus while he never, ever wants to kill, a situation where it happens doesn't, in the main version at least, make him decide to do it left and right.

Heck, there's even one comic where Superman, speaking with the Joker, says he doesn't really have a no-kill rule, he just tries really hard not to.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

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Lord Revan wrote: 2017-07-11 08:15pmKey difference being that Batman doesn't think he should be one to pass judgement but rather he gives the super villains to the authorities, it's not his fault it's harder to escapte from wet cardboard box then from Arkham.
Honestly, this is really what kills me about Batman in general. He and Gotham law enforcement are culpable (more so law enforcement, but in their defense they don't boast a lot of supers) to every dead innocent considering how easy it is to slip out of Arkham. And that doesn't even make a whole lot of sense a criminal like the Joker is alive. You'd think after the 50th time he's broken out and murdered a bunch of people, some family member would get a gun and meet him outside the courthouse. Or just a mob of people demanding his execution.

And really, if someone in the DC verse did off the Joker, you think any jury would convict them of murder?

I recall one incident where he bombed a school and killed a bunch of kids. Yea, that guy isn't redeemable and he slips out of jail constantly. As I've grown up, I've lost 99% of my support for the death penalty. But in this specific situation: there's no good reason the Joker hasn't been executed or "had a heart attack" in his own jail-cell.

These are the kinds of monsters Batman deals with. And even if he just couldn't drop the "don't kill" angle, I'm sure Batsy could come up with SOME WAY to keep Joker under wraps. There has to be some secret jail, whatever, even he couldn't escape from nor could his minions find and bust him out of. Man, even keep it on the "up and up" by having Wayne Enterprises Private Prison Inc.

And this is why any criticism of Batman's vigilantism falls flat: the Gotham police fail consistently to protect the public just from one murderer. A murderer that should have enemies everywhere: upper-class socialites, cops, gangsters, other super-villians. Is there anyone he HASN'T pissed off?

Hell, in this fictional case: vigilantism is the best outcome because Law and Order has failed so spectacularly just dealing with one asshole.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by Q99 »

TheFenix wrote:Honestly, this is really what kills me about Batman in general. He and Gotham law enforcement are culpable (more so law enforcement, but in their defense they don't boast a lot of supers) to every dead innocent considering how easy it is to slip out of Arkham. And that doesn't even make a whole lot of sense a criminal like the Joker is alive. You'd think after the 50th time he's broken out and murdered a bunch of people, some family member would get a gun and meet him outside the courthouse. Or just a mob of people demanding his execution.
More so the legal system than Batman himself. Batman wouldn't have to angst so much about not-killing if they weren't so bad at handling even complete monsters once actually in custody. Sure, the police can't catch Joker, but they're in charge of things every other step of the way.

Like, Ivy, Freeze, Clayface? They kill people, they're murderers, why you need Batman to stop them makes sense, but they could conceivably be rehabilitated. Fine! Joker? Nowadays every time he gets out there's double digit kill counts, occasionally more.

Slaughter-version Joker kinda breaks the setting and I wish they wouldn't use him. Some other versions of Joker do work (even ones that kill), but unpredictable, *could* kill you but is often just going to prank you is so much better! Animated Series Joker was great, he had a body count but a small one. '66 Joker *tried to take over the world* once but still doesn't break the setting. Etc..
And really, if someone in the DC verse did off the Joker, you think any jury would convict them of murder?
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

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TheFeniX wrote: 2017-07-11 05:24pmGiven the state of Gotham in the Nolan series alone, I see no reason a state of emergency would not have been declared. Essentially, habeas corpus: poof. Martial law: yay! Those with money bail, those without pray they don't get caught in the cross-fire as FBI, ATF, and whoever else starts tearing the city and the police department apart to clean it up. While that's going on, Batman style "vigilantism" would be the norm as the military kicks ass and take names later.
If we're talking specifically about the Nolan Batman, back in Batman Begins we do have Ra's Al Ghul claiming that the League of Shadows are manipulating things behind the scenes to turn Gotham into a hellhole in their bid to destroy it, even going so far as to say that they engineered the murder of Thomas and Martha because the Waynes were undermining their efforts by trying to improve conditions in the city. Considering that the League is supposed to be this world-spanning conspiracy, their influence could perhaps be part of why the feds didn't declare a state of emergency.

Though even if that were the case, it would still fit in TRR's case where vigilantism might be necessary because rule of law has broken down.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

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Q99 wrote: 2017-07-12 04:17amMore so the legal system than Batman himself. Batman wouldn't have to angst so much about not-killing if they weren't so bad at handling even complete monsters once actually in custody. Sure, the police can't catch Joker, but they're in charge of things every other step of the way.
That's the rub. You can't talk about Batman being a villian when he seems to be the only capable person out there. Further, a lot of what he deals with that (for some stupid reason) cops have no response to even though current U.S. police have access to military hardware is not "standard" crime.

So, this Freshmen level analysis of ""It's sexy to think crime can be stopped with a fist, but the real solution is a lot more boring than that: education, increasing wages, and building trust," Murphy says." falls completely flat because how does any of that apply to people like The Joker or cops, judges, and prosecutors all being on the take?

Does Batman beat up muggers and rapists? Yes. But that's not why Gotham needs him. It's a combination of corruption at all levels of government and villains so out of context to reality he's the only one who can deal. It's like Detroit in Robocop: there's no way that situation could exist for any given length of time before Army boots are on the ground. Only in Hollywood (or comic books).
Civil War Man wrote: 2017-07-12 11:54amIf we're talking specifically about the Nolan Batman, back in Batman Begins we do have Ra's Al Ghul claiming that the League of Shadows are manipulating things behind the scenes to turn Gotham into a hellhole in their bid to destroy it, even going so far as to say that they engineered the murder of Thomas and Martha because the Waynes were undermining their efforts by trying to improve conditions in the city. Considering that the League is supposed to be this world-spanning conspiracy, their influence could perhaps be part of why the feds didn't declare a state of emergency.
And this is where it just gets even crazier. Batman has to deal with a thousands of years old shadowy organization with hands in everything that, by nature of their success and reach, either completely slips by group such as the CIA, Interpol, and every other intelligence agency, including the FBI once they hit American soil, or has corrupted them somehow. Maybe both. Batman can solo what thousands of government employees can't even seem to get a bead on.

But, once the gas attack happened (somehow going off without a hitch, because I guess no one boils a pot of water in Gotham), you're talking about a major chemical weapon attack on U.S. soil with thousands of dead men, women, and children committed by a foreign group of people with no official national affiliation. And yet a couple years later, The Joker is the biggest plot point... not the U.S. going on another rampage across the sea with tons of military hardware and international backup. And somehow Gotham recovered from that AT ALL. Somehow people still live there. Somehow the next 10 years and billions/trillions of dollars weren't spent on rebuilding from the damage.

And we're talking about how Batman should be the villain. About real-world counters to "crime." Goddamn, the Joker isn't even a criminal, he's a domestic terrorist. He's not in it for money or survival or even fame. He's doing it for the shits and grins. How on Earth could you compare him to realistic examples of crime and how to fight them. And that's just ONE dood Batsy deals with on a regular basis. How can you compare Gotham to any real crime ridden city by nature of it's recovery being better explained by "It's fucking MAGIC!"?

Batman is much more guilty of "only sane man" than anything related to "glorifying vigilantism."
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by Q99 »

The system isn't always on the take btw, Gordon is often credited with cleaning it up a lot around the time of Batman's, they're just often outmatched by the villains. Even putting aside Joker, the Riddler's whole schtick is being incredibly hard to catch due to how smart he is. He's just a string of 'suspect vanished after the robbery' reports. And sending more guns into an area full of Scarecrow's fear gas is just a bad idea!

Also, apparently one of the reasons Joker keeps going back to Arkham? The psychiatrists apparently influence the judges because they want the bragging rights of 'being the one to finally cure the Joker.' No, really.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by biostem »

As others have pointed out, given the cities/societies these heroes operate in, Batman isn't a villain. Where I would take issue would be cases like Man of Steel, where Superman appears to willingly keep the fight in the city, causing huge amounts of damage and loss of life. Batman punching bad guys in the face isn't the problem - it's when he decides to fire missiles at a crook's getaway car, misses, then takes out half a building. Why he couldn't covertly attach a tracking device, follow them back to their hideout, then take them out where a bunch of civilians aren't, is what I question. Don't get me wrong, in the cases where it's a matter of causing some damage now, to avoid a city-destroying event later, I could excuse his actions...
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by Lord Revan »

It's kind of like how in most universes the Imperium of man would the the big bad and the worst thing around, but in Warhammer 40.000 they're the good guys.

If put in our world Batman would be a criminal, since for all its fault the US law enforcement still works (or close enough) so someone like Batman isn't needed, but in Gotham or Blüdhaven(which is said to be worse then Gotham) aren't like that, the police force is impotent at stopping criminals and the federal authorities got involved once and it was to isolate Blüdhaven from rest of the USA so it could tear itself apart without harming rest of the country and all the innocent still left in the city were essentially left to fend for themselves. So someone like Batman or Nightwing is absolutely needed because there's no-one else to protect the innocents.

Context means everything in these things.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

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Whenever did that happen? The No Man's Land storyline had the Feds isolate Gotham (which, incidentally, resulted in a flood of ex-Gothamites moving to Blüdhaven).
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by Q99 »

I will note it's not like the city's a constant war-zone or anything (as the police force has gotten better, crime, especially normal crime, has dropped since it's worst days), and the *scale* of a NYC-sized city means you can live there for years and not really run into a dangerous villain. It's just the villains represent a persistent, hard-to-deal-with problem.
biostem wrote: 2017-07-12 06:32pm As others have pointed out, given the cities/societies these heroes operate in, Batman isn't a villain. Where I would take issue would be cases like Man of Steel, where Superman appears to willingly keep the fight in the city, causing huge amounts of damage and loss of life. Batman punching bad guys in the face isn't the problem - it's when he decides to fire missiles at a crook's getaway car, misses, then takes out half a building. Why he couldn't covertly attach a tracking device, follow them back to their hideout, then take them out where a bunch of civilians aren't, is what I question. Don't get me wrong, in the cases where it's a matter of causing some damage now, to avoid a city-destroying event later, I could excuse his actions...
Most of the regular Bat villains are smart enough to find a tracker. And/or it's necessary to engage them to save people under current threat.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by GuppyShark »

biostem wrote: 2017-07-12 06:32pmWhere I would take issue would be cases like Man of Steel, where Superman appears to willingly keep the fight in the city, causing huge amounts of damage and loss of life.
Start a new thread if you want to start that fight.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by Lord Revan »

Batman wrote: 2017-07-12 08:34pm Whenever did that happen? The No Man's Land storyline had the Feds isolate Gotham (which, incidentally, resulted in a flood of ex-Gothamites moving to Blüdhaven).
my bad then I thought it was Blüdhaven that got isolated after the NBC attack not Gotham but I'll accept your correction.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by biostem »

GuppyShark wrote: 2017-07-13 07:29am
biostem wrote: 2017-07-12 06:32pmWhere I would take issue would be cases like Man of Steel, where Superman appears to willingly keep the fight in the city, causing huge amounts of damage and loss of life.
Start a new thread if you want to start that fight.
Throttle back, man... I was just using it as an example.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by Zixinus »

At the risk of putting the thread on topic, the one way I can imagine Batman being a villain is simple: the police and government work. Not perfectly, but to the point that a one-man vigilante only makes things worse rather than better. Where police can and will catch criminals and supervillains like the Joker would be pragmatically taken care of by a SWAT sniper before they have a chance to see themselves on the news.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by TheFeniX »

Q99 wrote: 2017-07-12 05:28pm The system isn't always on the take btw, Gordon is often credited with cleaning it up a lot around the time of Batman's, they're just often outmatched by the villains.
A few cops fighting in a corrupt system like Gotham which would have to employ about as many cops as the NYPD is not a solution you would find in many functioning U.S. major cities. Maybe MAYBE if the criminal elements only targeted "undesirables" such as the poor and minorities.

Besides, the idea in a world where Markone (sp) operates so openly a younger Bruce Wayne can just ask around and find out he's behind multiple crimes related to the man who murder Wayne's parents and who is also willing to off a pretty, young, and white ADA for sniffing around and the "system" just kind of rolls with it? That's out there. The idea that Gordon isn't already dead or gone by the time Batman shows up, when he's KNOWN not to take money, is even further out there.

Maybe the cops still operate heavily behind the blue line, but I refuse to believe the Mob hasn't threatened Gordon's family enough to scare him off or found some other way to get rid of him. Just setting him up to take the fall in a few arrests gone bad, or whatever.

No, Gordon exists in Batman because he's a staple of the series.
Zixinus wrote: 2017-07-13 11:40am At the risk of putting the thread on topic, the one way I can imagine Batman being a villain is simple: the police and government work. Not perfectly, but to the point that a one-man vigilante only makes things worse rather than better. Where police can and will catch criminals and supervillains like the Joker would be pragmatically taken care of by a SWAT sniper before they have a chance to see themselves on the news.
Then it's not really Batman. More like Watchmen with a bit less of a dystopia bent. Fact is, in just Batman Begins, had Batman not shown up when he did, Gotham literally (or at least its citizens) tears itself apart by the time the credits roll. And no one knew a fucking thing about it. Meanwhile, even the chucklefucks in reality knew enough about what was going on with 9/11 to potentially stop it. And that was just a couple guys taking flight lessons and packing box cutters.

You want Batman to be the villain and get arrested/shot by police in 3 seconds? Drop him and his toys in modern day New York. You want him to be a hero? Write a set of stories combining "only sane man" with extremely specific plot points and resolutions where he saves the day.
Lord Revan wrote: 2017-07-12 08:05pm It's kind of like how in most universes the Imperium of man would the the big bad and the worst thing around, but in Warhammer 40.000 they're the good guys.
I find this is what a lot of writers, probably not huge fans of a medium to begin with, have a problem with. There's a lot of fiction you just cannot view through the lens of realism. Or at least, many of their themes because they just do not match up. The real world would be completely unprepared to deal with them and even in many cases in said fiction, there's reliance on other out of context problems (like Batman, in any incarnation the guy is almost always MAGIC!) to deal with them. Certain plots might deal with how the government or police are coping, but many times they are ineffectual or cause more harm than good if they aren't evil to begin with.

And fiction tends to give us these extremely specific ways to justify what's going on. And that can be a problem. Look at 24 constantly showing "torture works" because the plot is written specifically so that it does work, when it nearly never does in reality. Then that begs another question: if torture worked, would it be "good" to use it?

Like, every week some villain handcuffs himself to a bomb and the ONLY way to get the code, disarm the bomb, and save 10,000 lives is to break 5 of his fingers. Those are the kinds of contrived situations Batman ends up in. I am 100% against torture, but with that kind of black/white view of consequences, which near NEVER exist in reality, I'd break that guys fingers myself.

You want to attack the themes of Batman, that's cool. Attack Batman as a character concept? Same thing. But attacking Batman as a person? That doesn't pan. To say "oh, he'd be a villain today" is moronic.
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Re: These Days It Makes More Sense for Batman to Be a Villain

Post by Zixinus »

The thing about Batman is that he changes with the times. 1950's Batman and cast would look ridicolous or bizarre today. Batman's character is subtly altered, sometimes forcefully, all the time to fit new conceptions and taste. When criminals became organized and less thugish, he became a competent detective. When criminals can buy fancy gadgets, he gets gadgets of his own.
Then it's not really Batman. More like Watchmen with a bit less of a dystopia bent.
Watchmen is a deconstruction of the entire classic superhero genre which rather directly addresses the concepts underlying Batman in not one but three different characters with their own aspects. To make Batman a villain you need either to alter his character (for example, him losing his grip on reality and becoming delusional, ie, the very monster he feared to be) or put him in so radically different circumstances where he doesn't fit.

As others have pointed out, put him in a modern city where crime is far too complex to be solved by vigilante face-punching. A system where justice is done with systems of evidence where Batman meddling undermines that even with useful and competent help. Where the crimes are blurred, where criminals are smart and avoid outright violence or do activities that attract "the bat's" attention.

Or better, a place where he isn't needed, an utopia. A place where the tragedy that defines him simply don't happen, where no child's parents are gunned down by a ruthless mugger for their wallets and jewelry. Where the criminals (such as they are) don't need face-punching from a borderline-superhuman ninja-detective preying on superstition. Where all his near-superhuman skills are simply not needed, where the police are well equipped and trained to handle the crime that is and supervillains are either never made or are actually cured before they could start their rampage. That would actually be rather hellish place for him.
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