Spacedocks take on the versus debate

[texanmarauder]

That does not matter one bit. Every battle has twists and turns. By nature, they are unpredictable. Han showing up was not planned for by the Rebels, because he outright told Leia he wasn't interested in joining the Rebellion. It does not matter if Vader nearly defeated the starfighter attack, what matters is that a) he didn't defeat it and b) Tarkin's own men realized the Rebels could win despite not knowing what weakness they were exploiting. Everyone in the film except Tarkin realized the Rebel plan could work, but no one knew Luke was Force sensitive or else the Rebels would have given him the first pass at the trench, not the last one. Or not even bother with letting non-force sensitive pilots take a shot at it at all, for that matter. Luke was the nobody from the galactic sticks who was only allowed in the seat of an X-Wing because a couple of his friends among the existing fighter pilots vouched for him. And Luke himself needed Obi-Wan's encouragement to turn off his targeting computer. Its a major plot point of the film that his force sensitivity was another unexpected turn in the battle, just like Han and Chewie showing up. Everyone in the film believe that their targeting computers were up to the task of hitting the exhaust port, and for all we know they actually were-- we will never know, however, because Luke successfully hit the mark using only his intuition.

I never said the plan COULDNT work, so not really sure what that whole spiel was about.

The plot of A New Hope isn't subtle about all of this. Luke's decision was most pivotal to his personal growth, but not necessarily the battle. The next time they needed to blow up a Death Star they sent their only Jedi on the ground mission to destroy the shield generator, and they managed to blow that one up just fine. Seriously, how long has it been since you watched the films?

what does this have to do with anything?

It is directly evidenced by the film. It is not conjectural, or up for debate. It is a fact. Every time they talk about using their targeting computer to hit the exhaust port and the very fact that Luke turns his off in favor of intuitive marksmanship they are telling the audience "these torpedoes are programmed by the targeting computers specifically for this mission." Concede this point, or shut the hell up. No one wants to hear you repeat the same lies over and over again.

are they? you just said

"these torpedoes are programmed by the targeting computers specifically for this mission."

that is a direct contradiction since luke didn't even use his targeting computer. so now, he didn't even use the force, he used his "intuition". and you need to check your definitions of conjectural and evidence. they were only preprogrammed because you want them to be. MISSILES from other movies somehow gives torpedoes the ability to make 90 degree turns, so we use those as evidence, but not the examples of untrained force use from the new guy. and you people accuse me "wall of ignorance tactics. so take your "direct evidence" and fuck yourself with it.

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[Thanas]

So your explanation is that the rebel alliance wasted two entire attack runs because it is clear that nobody ever believes proton torpedoes can make such turns without force assistance.

My god you are a bit dense.

that is NOT what I said. I thought putting words in peoples mouths and deliberately twisting shit around was below the supermods.

Oh? Then you no longer claim that the photon torpedoes turned that way without force asistance, do you?

[texanmarauder]

think what you want.

[texanmarauder]

and star wars doesn't use photon torpedoes.

[texanmarauder]

So your explanation is that the rebel alliance wasted two entire attack runs because it is clear that nobody ever believes proton torpedoes can make such turns without force assistance.

My god you are a bit dense.

that is NOT what I said. I thought putting words in peoples mouths and deliberately twisting shit around was below the supermods.

Oh? Then you no longer claim that the photon torpedoes turned that way without force asistance, do you?

think what you want because all you will do is ridicule, accuse me of wall of ignorant tactics and lies, threaten me with being "shipped out" while employing those same tactics, along with bully tactics and repetition fallacies until I say what you want to hear, which is me agreeing with your speculations and made up tech and definitions. so you just knock yourself out. this isn't a debate forum. its a joke. I was warned about the wild preconceptions before coming here from (I usually debate on youtube where I would block assholes like you and your buddies) its no wonder why this site is nearly dead.

[Formless]

I never said the plan COULDNT work, so not really sure what that whole spiel was about.

If you insist that the torpedoes had to be pushed with the Force to go into the hole, then you are saying the plan couldn't work. If you insist that this interpretation is the ONLY valid explanation, you are saying the plan shouldn't have even been attempted, because the Rebels didn't know Luke was Force sensitive.

Ergo, the plan was never to rely on a force user to make the torpedoes go into the exhaust port.

Dumbass.

are they? you just said

"these torpedoes are programmed by the targeting computers specifically for this mission."

that is a direct contradiction since luke didn't even use his targeting computer.

Everyone else has explained this to you already. The computer times the shot. The torpedoes make the turn. The torpedoes were programmed ahead of time to make the turn. There is no contradiction in this theory, and it is evidenced by numerous pieces of dialogue both in the briefing and during the battle. (It also makes sense OOU given that the battle was inspired by a WW2 film recreating an actual mission to blow up dams with an experimental bomb, and in the real mission timing was indeed everything) I and others have also pointed out numerous contradictions between the film and your "Force push" explanation. Answer for those contradictions, with evidence, or concede them. I don't have the patience for any more bullshit. This is an official challenge by me to you under Debating Rule 5. If you do not know what that means, you shouldn't be here, arguing these points.

[texanmarauder]

If you insist that the torpedoes had to be pushed with the Force to go into the hole, then you are saying the plan couldn't work. If you insist that this interpretation is the ONLY valid explanation, you are saying the plan couldn't work.

at this point I really don't give a shit. yall seem to have certain preconceptions that only your reasons and explanations are right and everybody else is wrong. so even if I agreed with you at this point, it wouldn't be a concession or a debate. it would be telling you what you want to hear.
I could give a shit less about your challenge. I could tell you the same thing but your definitions of proof seem to be different than mine and that of the English language definition. you still haven't explained why the shot from red leader went far left of the shaft. if the computer only told you when to fire, meaning when the shot was lined up and at the correct distance for your preprogramming horse shit to work, then why so far off target? he was lined up, his computer had the port in the crosshairs, that's on film. so why so far off? if the torpedoes were actually preprogrammed as you claim, and the shot was a matter of timing, then the impact would have been above or below the port. as for this:

I and others have also pointed out numerous contradictions between the film and your "Force push" explanation.

all I got was different variations of "the torpedoes HAD to be preprogrammed because there is no way that luke, with no training, could force push those torpedoes into the shaft" and "missiles from the other movies were able to turn that way". I pointed out examples of force use by characters with no training whatsoever, and got ignored or summarily dismissed out of hand. so fuck your challenge.

[NecronLord]

The thing is, you're not putting it in the context of Luke's powers shown in other scenes. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it's equally likely, in the context of the attack run itself, that Luke used the force to thrust the torpedoes, or that he used it to obtain perfect timing.


Luke: You mean it controls your actions?
Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands

Here we see, earlier in ANH, where Obi Wan tells Luke to 'Let go your conscious self, and act on instinct' - in a clear parallel to when he tells Luke to 'let go' during the Death Star attack, and to not trust his eyes in the first instance, and the computers in the second.

Here we see Luke use the force to exhibit perfect timing, to deflect the remote's shots, by letting go.


Here, we see that Luke is tremulous and halting, even some years later, in his application of the force to small scale telekinesis.

There's a growth to Luke's powers, and being able to thrust torpedoes around is entirely anomalous in that context, but it's entirely fitting for him to let the force control his actions, to fire at the right instant. That's why everyone thinks that Luke used the force to select the right moment to pull the trigger on an otherwise one-in-a-million shot.

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I'm not actually sure why the idea that star wars torpedoes can make pinpoint turns with very high G turns is so important to you, it's plain from other contexts that they can't perform as well in linear acceleration?

I think you've come here, as people do from time to time, expecting us to be rabid warsies, who think that the Star Wars forces are somehow perfect, or to be wanting to bend the evidence for them. This isn't the case, and any partisanship in actually looking at these things died here long ago. I've considered pitching a general 'State of the Vs' FAQ thread for people to discuss and contribute to some time, as honestly, we've had time to work through and debunk a lot of the more extreme 'Empire dominates' memes that this board is famous for over the years.

Honestly, I would pick a Romulan Warbird or a Klingon Vor'cha in a fight against an Imperial Star Destroyer in realistic scenarios - and yes, that's with the firepower advantages the Star Wars side has been attributed.

[Thanas]

that is NOT what I said. I thought putting words in peoples mouths and deliberately twisting shit around was below the supermods.

Oh? Then you no longer claim that the photon torpedoes turned that way without force asistance, do you?

think what you want because all you will do is ridicule, accuse me of wall of ignorant tactics and lies, threaten me with being "shipped out" while employing those same tactics, along with bully tactics and repetition fallacies until I say what you want to hear, which is me agreeing with your speculations and made up tech and definitions. so you just knock yourself out. this isn't a debate forum. its a joke. I was warned about the wild preconceptions before coming here from (I usually debate on youtube where I would block assholes like you and your buddies) its no wonder why this site is nearly dead.

Ah the classic "I refuse to concede, screw you, waaah you are being mean to me and MOMMMY I AM RIGHT" rolled into one little childish package.

Not impressed.