A bunch of Nazis on Mars (RAR!)

[Zor]

In this scenario in 2001 the Mars Odyssey orbiter detects a number of strange structures with odd thermal characteristics in a crater Hesperia Planum that had previously been thought of as rock formations. Only now on closer inspection two things seem different about them: they seem to be giving off odd thermal readings and they are organized into a neat grid. There are also signs of activity on the ground. This is enough to get it cross confirmed and things are weird enough so that in 2003 the Spirit Lander is sent to touch down a couple of kilometers away along with a Sagan box. Before it the Mars Express Orbiter got a good look at this sight and also detects a thermal spike and an object the size of a fridge moving into Martian orbit and transmitting down simple video feeds of the surface of Mars. When the Spirit lander touches down on the surface of Mars it wheels about for a little bit, taking some pictures of the surrounding area (including a couple of shots of the cluster of structures) before a vehicle pulls up and a couple of figures come out capture the robot. Though the design of the spacesuit is largely unfamiliar but they are identifiable as humans. In no small part due to the fact that they are armed with StG-44s, Lugar pistols and the swastika armbands that they have. Since the truck they use is open, NASA gets a few more glimpses of their base before the rover is taken inside. Activity increases around the Nazi mars base afterwards. Given that NASA was involved in this all the way, none of this was classified.

Eventually a month latter a message is given through the Spirit lander (given with cards) that he is Herman Vogel head of the National Socialist New German Workers Party and Chancellor of the Reich von Neues Deutscheland, a nation that he says claims the entirety of Mars as it's sovereign territory and is "the Last Vestige of the True Germany". Basically at some point during the Second World War the German Army found a device (which they relocated to a facility near Wolfsburg in 1943) which acted as a Stargate leading to a facility under the surface of Mars with a basic airlock leading to the surface. Also inside the machine was a couple of machines which produced power, maintained a breathable atmosphere and temperatures, produced water, refined metals into ore and so forth. The Germans sent some people through and used the facility as a mining operation and moved some factory equipment there to be safe from allied bombings, but ultimately while some more ammunition, steel, aluminum, copper, glass and tungsten was useful to their war machine it could not turn the tide. Eventually during the final stages of the war a large number of civilians, about 1,200 Wehrmatch and Waffen SS soldiers and what supplies could be mustered (including high end blueprints) were shoved through the Earth side of the gate, which was blown up with dynamite before the surrender.

After the bridge was burned they set up underground farms, grew bamboo for materials and cotton for textiles, raised pigs, fish and chickens for food and expanded through the kilometers of tunnels and increased their population (going from about 32,000 in 1945 to about 120,000 in 2004), refined their machinery to their goals and began to expand onto the surface in earnest around 1985. Recently they began work on building rockets based off the V2 for purposes of "peaceful space exploration", putting up a basic unmanned satellite. They are not adverse for communication with earth now that they've been discovered but Vogal says that "The Reich will defend itself".

In truth the Mars based Nazis have some long term goals on building up their nation and industrial base to the point that they can build an Wehrmatch and a Raumswaffe that launch an attack on earth and "liberate" it. This is part of a spiel that they've been feeding everyone born in their base since childhood for several generations. They have some electric ground vehicles and maintain a small standing army about 2,500 strong to guard stuff, perform various ceremonies, "keep up a marshal spirit" and to train up future soldiers, though most of their efforts had been dedicated to R&D. They don't say any of this over the broadcast.

What happens?

Zor

[Joun_Lord]

Earthers wonder why these Mars Nazis are still using highly outdated weapons that had problems in their days and would probably not function at all on the Martian surface thanks to all the dust and dirt fouling the fancy toggle lock system or receiver that could be rendered inoperable by falling over. Others wonder if someone got their DOOM mixed with their Wolfenstein.

Really though, I think the existence of a Nazi outpost on Mars would probably never be tolerated especially by Germany and Israel. Even more so if it turns out there are war criminals still up there. I'm sure plenty of nations will band together to R&D some heavy lift rockets capable of going to Mars and back carrying enough troops to arrest or eliminate the last remnants of a criminal organization.

The question is what could the Nazis do in the time period it takes to build up an invasion, could they put up really any defenses considering they are no doubt resource strapped? Would they even bother being aware that we could easily nuke them if they prove to much trouble? Would they attempt to negotiate rather then risk Earth coming a calling? Would Earth even listen to any negotiations?

When it comes to Nazis, especially real Nazis, people aren't exactly the most rational. Nazi ideology is by its very nature is cruel and horrible. Nazis by their nature are cruel and horrible people. I don't think most nations would believe them if they said they had abandoned Hitler's ways and become peaceful hippie dippy Nazis who are only armed with their granddaddies assault rifles to defend against Martians groundhogs or a possible demonic invasion.

I wonder though, assuming level heads prevailed and we don't go to Mars to kick Nazi ass and chew bubble gum, the Nazis decided risking pissing off the whole world for a second time in a century is a bad idea, would any of the Nazis be able to come to Earth? I would think that for original Nazis they couldn't even be brought to Earth after around 70 years adapting to the Martian gravity. Same with the offspring but they have never experienced Earth gravity at all, coming to Earth they'd weigh twice as much as they are used to and be having to use bodies adapted (perhaps badly) to the much lower gravity. Hard to say how their health would be thanks to the much lower gravity, living on a planet where they cannot get natural sunlight, and with a very thin atmosphere allowing solar radiation to fuck people over if they aren't probably shielded. The entire Mars population could be in pretty poor health, probably very North Korea-ish.

[Imperial528]

There's really no reason to invade them in the short term; as you note it is almost trivial to send nuclear weapons to Mars. Make them aware of that fact, and it is a ready-made Sword of Damocles. Wouldn't even need to use nuclear weapons even: they would have no defense against the rods from god concept or conventional cruise missiles modified for the Martian environment, and it is not at all difficult to cripple their colony beyond their ability to repair it using bunker-busters.

Their own gravity/fitness issues can be solved via centrifuges, but they'd have to be pretty big to be comfortable, though they would work with somewhat low spin rates since they'll be additive to the existing gravity.

EDIT: The only real concern in making strikes against them would be the extant weapons ban treaties. Though the reappearance of literal nazis wouldn't make it hard to argue for some exceptions.

I also wonder, if any of the surviving original expedition members would have surviving family. That would present interesting complications to both sides.

[bilateralrope]

Make them aware of that fact, and it is a ready-made Sword of Damocles.

Lets assume they haven't been listening to any broadcasts from Earth. Can we convince them of our ability to nuke them without sending a nuke to Mars ?

[Adam Reynolds]

I don't see why Earth didn't realize this in the 1940s. Thousands of people can't have just disappeared in Germany without someone noticing in some form or another. Add in the fact that there are a rather large number of Nazis out to avoid the gallows, and someone will talk. People may not believe them initially, thinking that it was simply someone out to avoid their death, but this would spur on the space race sooner and faster when someone finds evidence of the destroyed facility. Some of those 1960s concepts for Orion Drives and nuclear engines might become factual for an investigation into the presence of Martian Nazis. Not sure how that would go, as the initial investigators would have to be a small team, but this might also lead to primitive unmanned systems as well. Mariner was launched in the 1960s after all.

End the Cold War, defeat Martian Nazis might also be a slogan that both NATO and the Warsaw Pact can get behind, with a joint American-Soviet recon mission. There is an amusing thought, and not a bad story premise in many ways.

Though the other interesting ripple effect is that we now know that some form of unconventional transportation is possible, perhaps including FTL. It also indicates that some entity left them in Germany, which is a far worse problem.

Lets assume they haven't been listening to any broadcasts from Earth. Can we convince them of our ability to nuke them without sending a nuke to Mars ?

They already knew that the US was developing this ability during the war, so it would not exactly be a surprise to them that it was perfected in the following 70 years. And given American strategic bombing of Germany, I suspect they would also have no doubt that we just might use it, despite the real life objections to the contrary.

[Imperial528]

Lets assume they haven't been listening to any broadcasts from Earth. Can we convince them of our ability to nuke them without sending a nuke to Mars ?

We could send them the photographs from the bombings of Japan, and various footage from both US and Soviet tests.

Just sending a single rocket to Mars would be enough of a statement they could not produce an answer for with their industrial base. Whether they believe us about nukes or not, there is always the possibility of using large conventional bombs (such as the British earthquake bombs used during the war) which they will be entirely aware of.

According to the OP, they only start expanding on the surface in 1985. By this point probes have already landed on Mars, and frankly we would have noticed them well before the 2001 timeline in the OP, at least by 1996 due to the Mars Global Surveyor.

Knowing of their existence before '85 would be difficult since it would be based on hearsay really, presuming that the Nazis had successfully destroyed their documentation on the Earth side of things. But it wouldn't be impossible either given the thermal signatures their colony would be generating, especially if the power station is nuclear. Unless they're miles below ground, in which case they would be very difficult to detect even from low orbit. Presuming their base is entirely sealed, at least.

[NecronLord]

Recently they began work on building rockets based off the V2 for purposes of "peaceful space exploration", putting up a basic unmanned satellite. They are not adverse for communication with earth now that they've been discovered but Vogal says that "The Reich will defend itself".
[...]

What happens?

Zor

I'm pretty sure you've just found a way to unite the Big Five WW2 allies (and Germany) again. That should be fun.

[K. A. Pital]

Iron Sky already happened and was funny. This thread is basically the same, right?

[NecronLord]

This appears to be Iron Sky with mostly-real physics. So the nazis would get cockpunched even harder.

[K. A. Pital]

This appears to be Iron Sky with mostly-real physics. So the nazis would get cockpunched even harder.

Pretty much, although Mars is far away. But throwing a few fast rocks on them in the typical space warfare fashion should not be too hard.

Poof, Mars Nazis are gone.

[NecronLord]

In all honesty if I was in charge, I'd want to explore options to actually make some kind of landfall, it's a premade Mars colony and they may have valuable alien tech there.

[LaCroix]

Funny. People see Nazis and go all warmongery on them, without seeing the most important part.

Some aliens had a base on Mars, and a TELEPORTER leading to Earth.
Even though they are gone, you'd think that this would be the more important part of the discussion than how to kill a few people with 1950's tech on an airless rock.

So an invasion/research mission is quite likely, but mostly due to the fact that we now know we are not alone and have to study that alien tech. I see space travel finally getting the attention it needs with a ship getting put together in orbit - a ship big enough to ferry enough troops to take Mars - even with just 2500 dedicated defenders, you need at least a few thousand to hold it against an uprising/ be fast enough to prevent them from destroying the machinery - would be too big to lift conventionally.

[Broomstick]

Pretty much, although Mars is far away. But throwing a few fast rocks on them in the typical space warfare fashion should not be too hard.

What's to stop them from doing the same to us?

Or is this a matter of doing it to them before they have the capability to do it to us?

[NecronLord]

Funny. People see Nazis and go all warmongery on them, without seeing the most important part.

Have you read my post immediately prior to yours?

[K. A. Pital]

Pretty much, although Mars is far away. But throwing a few fast rocks on them in the typical space warfare fashion should not be too hard.

What's to stop them from doing the same to us?

Or is this a matter of doing it to them before they have the capability to do it to us?

Yes. It is an existential threat. Dropping a rock is a tactic that even very weak space combatants can use, but against which w barely have any defense right now. Earth casualties would be in the billions if such a thing was to happen. Risking it would be a no-go for Earth command, whoever it may be.

[LaCroix]

Funny. People see Nazis and go all warmongery on them, without seeing the most important part.

Have you read my post immediately prior to yours?

Actually, no - I got called away during posting and then just quickly posted it when coming back. #Sorry #Myfault
But I'm giving you full credits for noticing that - the other still haven't, it seems.

[Imperial528]

I noticed it, but it's a mcguffin: it's evident that what Zor cares more about is "MARTIAN NAZIS" since the teleporter/gate pretty much only exists to send them there. So I ignored it.

The way the OP is phrased however does beg the question: Was this gate two-ended, as in, is the other half on Mars a fully functional gate in itself, or was it more of a "launch" gate, with a pre-programmed destination on Mars but without an actual gate in situ there?

The former option means this may well turn into a "Race to Mars" scenario between the various major powers of Earth, naturally the US and Russia as the prime competitors. I would not expect this to erupt into a terrestrial war, but if the side which gets there first isn't too keen on sharing tech access, it may spark an extraterrestrial one.

There is also a rather ugly question of what to do with the Martian Nazis themselves after defeating them. It is unlikely they are entirely military, and will have at least a plurality "civilian" population. There would also be several generations born native to Mars.

Do the "next generation" SS there count as SS for the purpose of German post-war tribunals? Do those born there have a right to the land? A claim to the planet itself?

They're obviously not signatories to any of the outer space treaties, but do the Earth governments have the right to decide that of them? I doubt they would be legal recognized as a continuation of the Third Reich by any Earth nation, especially not by Germany. Do they count as stateless people then?

I'm not well versed enough in international law to really try and answer those questions myself, but those are a few pressing ones I can imagine.

[Joun_Lord]

That actually is a really good question, how would the world recognize them either for purposes of trial or trade? They are a direct descendant of Nazi Germany and consider themselves the last of the true Germany. Clearly Germany would dispute that....... greatly. They are descended from a more or less criminal organization but a generally defunct one. An organization that any gains made, and Mars was "conquered" during WWII from a device presumably stolen from another country (the OP mentioned they moved it to Wolfsburg but found it elsewhere, I'm betting they found it in a nation they were invading), are as far as I'm aware internationally recognized as not legal, modern Germany doesn't own anything Nazi Germany stole.

Recognizing their sovereignty even if they wanted to play nice might be tough and I doubt many would stand for it. Certainly Germany wouldn't want some remnant of the worst time in their history (even counting that time they were obsessed with David Hasselhoff) saying they are the real Germany, Israel and possibly any country with a relatively large Jewish population may be wanting us to go all D-Day on their asses even if they were relatively peaceful, and they might among their population war criminals even if they are elderly as fuck. I can't really see them remaining an independent nation, even trying to become a province of Germany after de-Nazi-fied themselves (which I doubt they'd want to do after decades of indoctrination) might be too much for some considering their origins.

Taking them to trial might be easier. They are citizens or descended from citizens of Germany on land claimed by a group that is defunct and any claims rendered null and void. They are members of a armed Neo-nazi faction with aims at overthrowing the legal German (and presumably world) government and could probably be legally treated like any skinhead group in Germany.

[Broomstick]

Arguably, the people born and raised on Mars have a legal claim to be there. No one else has claimed Mars, after all, and they've got a (presumably) viable colony there. I think they'd have to be treated as a sovereign nation, in which case in-colony slavery and what we regard as human rights violations might be legal there - but it would make them a pariah state.

I don't think Martian Nazis could be held liable for WWII crimes unless they are individuals who actually lived on Earth and participated in such crimes - there are fewer and fewer such each year.

However, it would have be a colony on shaky ground - a lot of effort would have to be going into providing food, water, and air. Even those that are military are not going to be as effective as Earth-based soldiers because the colony isn't big enough to sustain a military at modern Earth levels, plus the lower gravity will mean they have lower strength. I'd suspect their diet isn't wonderful even if adequate and there might be problems with radiation exposure.

If they weren't working a space program themselves the matter would be less urgent, but if they pose a real threat to Earth then they're going to be invaded and taken over. The easy solution is dropping a rock on them before they can drop a rock on us, but aside from the issue of genocide there's presumably alien tech that would be a real prize, not to mention the infrastructure of a working Martian colony. I also doubt they'd surrender easily.

[Zor]

The way the OP is phrased however does beg the question: Was this gate two-ended, as in, is the other half on Mars a fully functional gate in itself, or was it more of a "launch" gate, with a pre-programmed destination on Mars but without an actual gate in situ there?

There is an opposite gate on the Mars. It's basically an inert hunk of metal now.

Zor

[Imperial528]

Does the Mars gate contain the functional hardware necessary to connect to other gates or was it bricked when the Earth gate was destroyed? If the latter, to what extent is it damaged?

[Zor]

Does the Mars gate contain the functional hardware necessary to connect to other gates or was it bricked when the Earth gate was destroyed? If the latter, to what extent is it damaged?

The two gates were specifically paired with each other.

Zor

[Imperial528]

Okay, but is the hardware still intact? Enough to be studied or reverse engineered?

[The Romulan Republic]

Honestly, I think it is entirely possible that Israel simply sends a couple of nukes their way. Sending troops to Mars in sufficient numbers to occupy the place (even if it lacks an anti-aircraft guns to impede landing, which is doubtful) is going to be prohibitively expensive for the foreseeable future. But I very much doubt Israel would tolerate the existence of a literal Nazi state, even if their would be some serious political backlash to nuking a colony of over one hundred thousand people, mostly civilians.

Or maybe the Donald does- a nice, feel good war of distraction against an unambiguously evil enemy is just the thing to take attention off the Russian investigation. Though some of his base would probably sympathize with the other side.

Searches for any traces of the device the Nazis used, or similar alien tech. left on Earth, doubtless being.

Then, their are all the social implications of having proof that aliens exist, or at least did exist in the past.

Space program budgets probably soar around the world, so some good would come out of it.

[Zaune]

I don't see why Earth didn't realize this in the 1940s. Thousands of people can't have just disappeared in Germany without someone noticing in some form or another. Add in the fact that there are a rather large number of Nazis out to avoid the gallows, and someone will talk. People may not believe them initially, thinking that it was simply someone out to avoid their death, but this would spur on the space race sooner and faster when someone finds evidence of the destroyed facility.

Assuming the Nazis left anything useful for the Allies to find. Maybe they couldn't wipe out every trace of its existence, but they could plausibly wreck the 'stargate' thoroughly enough that it was impossible to determine what it was really supposed to do or whether it had worked, or just bury it under enough Alpine rubble that the occupation forces decided it wasn't worth trying to dig up what would almost certainly turn out to be some pseudoscientific money-pit that only worked according to the principles of "Aryan Physics". The story would probably end up enjoying a similar status to "Die Glocke" in conspiracy theory culture, up until it abruptly turned out to be true.

EDIT: Come to think of it, maybe the reason nobody could find evidence of that thing's existence is because the fleeing bitter-enders brought it with them to Mars.