General Police Abuse Thread

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by TheFeniX »

Terralthra wrote: 2017-07-28 01:41pmThe police chief saying it is an obvious "frivolous lawsuit" when they broke the spine of the person they were called to help is just the icing on the cake.
My brother-in-law is an ex-pro lineman. He's like 6'7" with weight to match, though he has slimmed down a bit, he's always going to be huge. My sister is like 5'9" and maybe a buck and a half (150lbs). He's literally (hands down) the nicest guy I ever met, but he made sure to let said sister know that if he ever ends up in a "altered" state, she needs to be careful with how she handles it. Thankfully, being who he is, he's already on great terms with his local PD, but a guy his size: cops are likely to assume the worst and fuck his shit up.

After talking to him, I had the same talk with my wife since I'm like 6'2" 200Lbs (not BIG, but not small), though mostly as just a "this shit might happen in bizaaro land" kind of deal. Obviously, if I'm violent, that's another story, but don't assume that just because she knows I'm being "weird, but non-aggressive" that the cops or EMTs would take her word for it.

Cops (and apparently EMTs) are shit at dealing with people in altered states of mind. And if I was in the coverage zone of the NYPD, I'd think 3 times before calling 911.
User avatar
Dominus Atheos
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3904
Joined: 2005-09-15 09:41pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Dominus Atheos »

So this is horrifying:



"A few bad apples" huh?
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Dominus Atheos wrote: 2017-07-28 05:50pm So this is horrifying:



"A few bad apples" huh?
It seems Trump is set to undo all progress, no matter how small, done during Obama's administration. Yes, it is horrifying. This will be a long term...hopefully not two.
Highlord Laan wrote: 2017-07-28 04:19pm
In before KS whitewashing.
Your obsession is making me uncomfortable.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16358
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Gandalf »

I thought this thread could use an interesting diversion from the ongoing saga of American police and their issues. In Australia there is an ongoing problem of Indigenous people dying in police custody.

Here is a recent example. I know the article is a few weeks old, but it's a good start to the most recent episode of this shitshow.
SBS wrote:The family of a Kamilaroi man who died in custody earlier this month from unexplained head injuries sustained while in a NSW prison is calling for an explanation from authorities.

Eric James Whittaker, 35, was taken to Parklea prison in Sydney after being refused bail for ‘minor’ charges last month, according to his family. He was then taken to Blacktown hospital and then Westmead hospital around June 29, after he was injured in an unexplained incident while in prison.

His family, who have given NITV News permission to use his name and image, said the Walgett man died on July 4 following three failed resuscitation attempts. They said he was shackled to the hospital bed, despite being in a coma for the last two days he was alive.

Social Justice campaigner Raul Bassi told NITV News on behalf of the family that the circumstances of the death raised many questions.

“They [the family] were told one thing by corrective services, and another by police, but whatever happened he hit his head,” he said.

“With deaths in custody it’s always [confusing] and when they are saying ‘oh he fell in the ward’, then saying ‘he fell in an office’ we have two versions and the versions don’t coincide with each other."

A spokeswoman for Corrective Services NSW said the death was under investigation.

"This matter is currently being investigated by NSW Police and CSNSW. CSNSW understands that the police are not treating the death as suspicious," the spokeswoman said in a statement.

"CSNSW will prepare a report for the Coroner and it would be inappropriate to comment further."

Activist Ken Canning who is also in touch with the family said the circumstances of Mr Whittaker’s death were “quite disgusting”.

“He was on life support for 48 hours and shackled to the bed – they refused to remove the shackles from his ankles, despite a family request. He couldn’t go anywhere, he was technically dead,” he told NITV News.

Mr Canning said the details provided so far did not provide a clear picture of what happened to Mr Whittaker.

“According to the doctor, the bleeding started at the top of his skull. Now if it was an aneurysm, that might explain it, but on two occasions they told him he had a fall, but it’s hard to land on the top of your head,” he said.

The death follows that of two other Indigenous people in NSW custody in recent years.

In July 2016, Rebecca Maher was found dead in a cell at Maitland police station just six hours after being taken into custody without charge. Police did not contact the NSW Custody Notification Service which provides legal and health advice to Indigenous people taken into police custody.

Six months earlier, in December 2015, Mr Whittaker's cousin David Dungay died during medical treatment at Sydney’s Long Bay Jail just weeks away from parole in what his family say were suspicious circumstances.

NSW Health declined to comment.

NSW Police have all been approached for comment.

A march is planned for tomorrow, July 19 In Hyde Park Sydney at 11.30am.
Indigenous Australian hip hop group A B Original have a website with some neat statistics at www.reporttothemist.com.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg »

I have my differences with KS, but let's all drop the bullshit, vendetta posting, and general attacks because he states his honest opinion, even when it sounds like standard cop defense #187 (heehee).
He does give valuable insight as to how the system works (or doesn't).
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg »

Alyrium Denryle wrote: 2017-07-25 05:33am
Thanas wrote: 2017-07-24 05:42pm Let's all take a breather.

As for my argument with regards to police, I am pretty sure that either they were very afraid of a women in pyjamas (thus being cowards, also "lol ambush") or that they are homocidal maniacs.

Which is it?
Third option. Something went terribly terribly wrong in this case. I mean... this guy freaked the fuck out and fired over his partner's body through the door of the police car. This is the sort of incident that screams "latent psychological damage" to me. Like "nearby car back-firing triggered a severe PTSD reaction" sort of damage.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Under what conditions would "Middle Aged White Woman Screaming For Help In Her Pajamas" generate PTSD bad enough to blow her away? Or think he was going to be ambushed? Seriously dude, did that stretch cause a cramp?
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4556
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Ralin »

Flagg wrote: 2017-07-31 03:15pm Under what conditions would "Middle Aged White Woman Screaming For Help In Her Pajamas" generate PTSD bad enough to blow her away? Or think he was going to be ambushed? Seriously dude, did that stretch cause a cramp?
Psst, he's suggesting that the guy had PTSD already and behaved irrationally because of it.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Flagg wrote: 2017-07-31 03:15pm
Alyrium Denryle wrote: 2017-07-25 05:33am
Thanas wrote: 2017-07-24 05:42pm Let's all take a breather.

As for my argument with regards to police, I am pretty sure that either they were very afraid of a women in pyjamas (thus being cowards, also "lol ambush") or that they are homocidal maniacs.

Which is it?
Third option. Something went terribly terribly wrong in this case. I mean... this guy freaked the fuck out and fired over his partner's body through the door of the police car. This is the sort of incident that screams "latent psychological damage" to me. Like "nearby car back-firing triggered a severe PTSD reaction" sort of damage.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Under what conditions would "Middle Aged White Woman Screaming For Help In Her Pajamas" generate PTSD bad enough to blow her away? Or think he was going to be ambushed? Seriously dude, did that stretch cause a cramp?
Reading comprehension. Acquire the capacity.

What I am suggesting is that the reaction on display is so off-the-wall that it makes no sense no matter how you look at it, other than to hypothesize that the officer in question was severely psychologically disturbed due to some other factor. As Ralin said, he may well have been having a PTSD reaction to something else (like a car engine backfire), and thus behaved irrationally.

Other possibilities include untreated tertiary syphilis (or some other infection), an undetected brain tumor, or medication induced psychosis.

Unless you want to make the claim that police officers like to put other officers at risk to shoot random citizens for no fucking reason. Random motive-free murder like that simply does not happen. Even spree shooters and serial killers tend to plan their crimes with targets in mind, not just randomly execute people.

Seriously, something like this happens, and the first thing I would do when investigating it is schedule a CAT scan, fMRI, a Spinal Tap, and a full psych workup along with some blood work.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg »

Ralin wrote: 2017-07-31 06:44pm
Flagg wrote: 2017-07-31 03:15pm Under what conditions would "Middle Aged White Woman Screaming For Help In Her Pajamas" generate PTSD bad enough to blow her away? Or think he was going to be ambushed? Seriously dude, did that stretch cause a cramp?
Psst, he's suggesting that the guy had PTSD already and behaved irrationally because of it.
Yes, I can read, despite what stupid people think. PTSD is a triggered reaction, not something that spontaneously manifests out of thin air. I suffer from it and it takes being in a situation somewhat similar to what caused the stress in the first place. So unless there was a rash of unarmed middle aged white women calling for help to set up an ambush (which is what the coward with a gun in question is saying he thought was happening, so if they did any scans or testing they either came up clean or his city funded defense team is holding it back for trial, which would be soooo shocking. Also no mentions of cars backfiring or any other all to convenient happenstances to trigger his theorized "PTSD" which to my knowledge he's not claiming to suffer from) you and AD are reaching so far to try and find a defense for the indefensible.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Flagg wrote: 2017-07-31 11:14pm
Ralin wrote: 2017-07-31 06:44pm
Flagg wrote: 2017-07-31 03:15pm Under what conditions would "Middle Aged White Woman Screaming For Help In Her Pajamas" generate PTSD bad enough to blow her away? Or think he was going to be ambushed? Seriously dude, did that stretch cause a cramp?
Psst, he's suggesting that the guy had PTSD already and behaved irrationally because of it.
Yes, I can read, despite what stupid people think. PTSD is a triggered reaction, not something that spontaneously manifests out of thin air. I suffer from it and it takes being in a situation somewhat similar to what caused the stress in the first place. So unless there was a rash of unarmed middle aged white women calling for help to set up an ambush (which is what the coward with a gun in question is saying he thought was happening, so if they did any scans or testing they either came up clean or his city funded defense team is holding it back for trial, which would be soooo shocking. Also no mentions of cars backfiring or any other all to convenient happenstances to trigger his theorized "PTSD" which to my knowledge he's not claiming to suffer from) you and AD are reaching so far to try and find a defense for the indefensible.
I'm not trying to defend shit. What that officer did was inexcusable and he should be sent to prison (what charges are negotiable), or a mental hospital. What I am trying to do is figure out "WTF happened?". Something like this does not happen out of nowhere. Either he is lying about what he perceived, in which case... Why? Or he is not lying and did perceive (incorrectly) that he was under threat of ambush, in which case...Why? Is this a personal medical problem (it does not have to be PTSD, it was just my first-pass example)? Is it a training problem (ex: does their training regime instill extreme paranoia in some officers? It is not hard to do...)? Was he on drugs?

Also, PTSD does not necessarily require a proximate trigger, and it can be... analogous but not a direct corollary to the stress. He may not know he has PTSD and may have been triggered by something else that day that put him on a paranoid knife edge, for instance. Or there could be a brain tumor, or any number of other things could be going on.

But those things are the difference between "Not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect", and "guilty".
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg »

Point. I just assume go with Occam's razor and attribute him to being like so many of his colleagues who murder people, namely a coward with a gun who got startled and shot someone.

The truly sad and disturbing part is that the racist elements in Australia and its government are so upset because the cop in question has a Muslim sounding name and his victim is a white blonde haired "damsel", and that's really the only reason this is such a high profile story.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Civil War Man »

Dominus Atheos wrote: 2017-07-28 05:50pm"A few bad apples" huh?
It actually is a very fitting description, considering what the phrase means in context. As John Oliver pointed out sometime last year, the full proverb is "a few bad apples spoil the barrel."
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by TheFeniX »

Civil War Man wrote: 2017-08-01 10:51am
Dominus Atheos wrote: 2017-07-28 05:50pm"A few bad apples" huh?
It actually is a very fitting description, considering what the phrase means in context. As John Oliver pointed out sometime last year, the full proverb is "a few bad apples spoil the barrel."
Oliver can be hit or miss (he does hit more than he misses). However, that was a really good watch and I'd like to think is worth posting:

And it hits on something that's chapped my ass for years: "It's not policy, it's the individuals." That's bullshit, otherwise there would not be thousands of cases where civil damage payouts were so high. My only complaint with the reporting from people like Oliver is that "humanity" is the emphasis when it's obviously not working.

And then you incidents like the truck shooting during the Dorner incident. They found multiple issues (obviously) with how the police were "implementing policy." Anything happen to those cops? No. But Taxpayers coughed up $4,200,000. High stress? On edge? Tough shit: no excuse for almost murdering 2 people AND costing the taxpayers that much money.

Emphasize how much a guy like Arpiao's reign of terror is costing taxpayers. The "restraint chair death" and "diabetic death" incidents payouts alone were each for millions. Compliance costs and non-compliance fines for their discrimination ruling? They're going into the $50+ millions area. Cutting money in other areas, BUT NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT, to cover the costs. Hammer that point home: "Police fuckups are taking money out of your pocket. And they suffer no consequences for it. Worse case, they get MORE money to clean up their shit."

Given the chance, I'd much rather argue the humanity. But neither the populace nor the cops seem to give a shit. But if they want to run U.S. Law Enforcement like it's Dystopian Cyberpunk then they need to fucking remember: Lone Star Security Services has to turn a fucking profit.

Policy, no policy, doesn't matter. Cops, no matter how high or low up the payscale, have shown they really just want to be left alone to do whatever they think is needed while you pay out for the carnage they cause. Sucks for the good cops stuck in a shitty system, but that's the breakdown.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Flagg wrote: 2017-08-01 10:26am Point. I just assume go with Occam's razor and attribute him to being like so many of his colleagues who murder people, namely a coward with a gun who got startled and shot someone.

The truly sad and disturbing part is that the racist elements in Australia and its government are so upset because the cop in question has a Muslim sounding name and his victim is a white blonde haired "damsel", and that's really the only reason this is such a high profile story.
Then you have to ask the question "why did he get startled?". Honestly Flagg, you are committing the fundamental attribution error. When someone fucks up, other people tend to assign blame to personal characteristics. This is usually an error. Give it a second-pass consideration. Why would a coward sign up for a job where they might get shot at? That makes little sense. At least in good departments, they weed people who are too nervous and panic prone out in the academy or during field training.

In *most* of these cases, we are not looking at Terrible People, we are looking at decent people who make mistakes. Those mistakes can be due to implicit bias (that no one is immune from) that affects threat assessment, they can be due to inadequate training, or they can be due to inappropriate/out-dated training that leads to poor decision making, or due to inexperience or situational awareness failures. Very rarely is it malice or cowardice (though there are exceptions like Baltimore and Ferguson PDs).

Look at it the same way you would a plane crash. Be like the NTSB dissecting an accident site. Are we looking at a institutional failure, a mechanical failure, weather, or pilot error? If it is pilot error, what factors contributed to it, and were the pilots criminally liable? The same questions can be asked in police shootings, just change the context...
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg »

Alyrium Denryle wrote: 2017-08-01 02:42pm
Flagg wrote: 2017-08-01 10:26am Point. I just assume go with Occam's razor and attribute him to being like so many of his colleagues who murder people, namely a coward with a gun who got startled and shot someone.

The truly sad and disturbing part is that the racist elements in Australia and its government are so upset because the cop in question has a Muslim sounding name and his victim is a white blonde haired "damsel", and that's really the only reason this is such a high profile story.
Then you have to ask the question "why did he get startled?". Honestly Flagg, you are committing the fundamental attribution error. When someone fucks up, other people tend to assign blame to personal characteristics. This is usually an error. Give it a second-pass consideration. Why would a coward sign up for a job where they might get shot at? That makes little sense. At least in good departments, they weed people who are too nervous and panic prone out in the academy or during field training.

They sign up because it gives them power. And plenty of shitheads get through the screening process.
In *most* of these cases, we are not looking at Terrible People, we are looking at decent people who make mistakes. Those mistakes can be due to implicit bias (that no one is immune from) that affects threat assessment, they can be due to inadequate training, or they can be due to inappropriate/out-dated training that leads to poor decision making, or due to inexperience or situational awareness failures. Very rarely is it malice or cowardice (though there are exceptions like Baltimore and Ferguson PDs).
And the NYPD, the LAPD, and on and on and on and it still keeps happening.
Look at it the same way you would a plane crash. Be like the NTSB dissecting an accident site. Are we looking at a institutional failure, a mechanical failure, weather, or pilot error? If it is pilot error, what factors contributed to it, and were the pilots criminally liable? The same questions can be asked in police shootings, just change the context...
Police aren't pilots. Pilots who crash planes, especially when on purpose, die. And that's beside the point because we don't need to view these incidents the way we do on the very rare occasions planes crash. We have a perfectly valid method that's been used forever: Homicide investigations. The problem, the only problem, with police being investigated when they commit homicide is that evidence of negligence, wrongdoing, and other dirt tends to get ignored or downplayed.

You're over complicating things.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

Flagg wrote: 2017-08-02 03:43amThey sign up because it gives them power. And plenty of shitheads get through the screening process.
Thing is, that's not a sufficient explanation. There are a lot of ways to get power over other humans that involve much lower exposure to violence than being a police officer.

I'm not saying there are NO police officers who don't have some basic minimum of physical courage.* But even if you really get off on being able to boss people around, if you don't have at least average levels of physical courage... police work really shouldn't be your first choice as a job description. That would be something more like, say, working for the IRS, or as a prosecutor in immigration courts or something. There you can go after people who are in no condition to fight back.
___________________________________

*That is, the willingness to risk physical injury and enter situations where violence or serious bodily harm is a possibility.
In *most* of these cases, we are not looking at Terrible People, we are looking at decent people who make mistakes. Those mistakes can be due to implicit bias (that no one is immune from) that affects threat assessment, they can be due to inadequate training, or they can be due to inappropriate/out-dated training that leads to poor decision making, or due to inexperience or situational awareness failures. Very rarely is it malice or cowardice (though there are exceptions like Baltimore and Ferguson PDs).
And the NYPD, the LAPD, and on and on and on and it still keeps happening.
See, what you're brushing past here is that even when you acknowledge that police abuses are terrible and the responsible policemen should be locked up, most of them make sense.

...

When the police hit the wrong house and shoot a dog that barked at them, we agree it's terrible and someone should be in deep shit... but it makes sense. The chain of fuckups is comprehensible in terms of real people doing things normal people do. Going to the wrong address is a comprehensible fuckup. If you assume for the sake of argument you're at the right house, and have a right to be there, and you're keyed up, a barking dog CAN seem aggressive. A split-second decision to shoot the dog may well be obviously wrong and stupid, but it's comprehensible stupidity. It's within the envelope of things biologically functional humans might do.

You don't need "cops are orcs created out of pure evil and stupidity for the sole purpose of hurting good people" as a working hypothesis to explain how such a thing could happen.

...

When the cops cuff a guy in the back of a van and give him a rough ride and his skull cracks and he dies, that's horrible and wrong and people SHOULD have gone to jail. But it's comprehensible, in that we know there are assholes who think that way, who don't see a problem with using physical violence to 'punish' someone for bruising their ego. And who are too reckless and negligent to consider a 5% probability of the victim of their beating getting crippled or killed, or who don't realize that when they do that shit once a year for twenty years, someone's going to get crippled or killed. Every gang beating that's ever happened is supporting evidence for the fact that people do this.

You don't have to imagine some kind of nonhuman creature doing it; people do shit like that. It's criminal and wrong and terrible. But, again, it's within the envelope of things that biologically functioning human brains do. That is NOT excusing it, that's just describing it.

...

So the point is, if you see a cop committing some kind of criminal abuse that makes sense, it's safe to attribute it to a combination of motives that make sense and can plausibly fit together in a human brain. This can include nasty motives like sadism, a sense of narcissistic injury at being "disrespected," and so on... but these are, again, motives that a functioning human brain can have, and not be clinically insane.

But if you see a cop committing an abuse that just leaves you going "wait what the fuck were they even thinking," it is very possible that they were high, that they've got an undiagnosed mental problem, or otherwise something was fucking up their thinking in a comprehensive way.

That's all there is here.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg »

The strawman you created is magnificent. And then the contradiction to it is equally magnificent.
You don't need "cops are orcs created out of pure evil and stupidity for the sole purpose of hurting good people" as a working hypothesis to explain how such a thing could happen.
And it would be a damned good point if I said such a thing. I think "coward with a gun" is far less hyperbolic and far more realistic. And cowards who are given guns feel empowered by said mechanical dick. And not all cops, even the ones who flat out first degree murder suspects are necessarily cowards. But enough are. And the cops and systemic protections that essentially cover the most horrid police abuses make them complicit. How else would you explain 2 dumbshits in LA scared of one guy unloading into a car that kinda looked like a car Dorner might be using, only for it to turn out that it was 2 elderly women they shot, not facing prosecution?
So the point is, if you see a cop committing some kind of criminal abuse that makes sense, it's safe to attribute it to a combination of motives that make sense and can plausibly fit together in a human brain. This can include nasty motives like sadism, a sense of narcissistic injury at being "disrespected," and so on... but these are, again, motives that a functioning human brain can have, and not be clinically insane.
See, and here is where you contradict your own strawman. You are attributing police abuses to sadism, injury to pride, and further unspecified evil that you declare with zero evidence "makes sense" while cowardice does not. And to be honest, shit in the real world, as opposed to CSI: De Moines, doesn't fucking have to make sense. And things that can be explained by a coward who feels more powerful with a badge and a gun getting bugfucked scared at a woman running at his cruiser because he's, for lack of a better term, an easily startled pussy, don't need Internet psychiatrists positing what various mental illnesses he may suffer from when there's zero evidence that that's the case and parsimony means it isn't required.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
Alkaloid
Jedi Master
Posts: 1102
Joined: 2011-03-21 07:59am

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Alkaloid »

The truly sad and disturbing part is that the racist elements in Australia and its government are so upset because the cop in question has a Muslim sounding name and his victim is a white blonde haired "damsel", and that's really the only reason this is such a high profile story.
Sorry Flagg, but that's bullshit. I'd be the last person to say there aren't racist elements in Australia and it's media, but "American cops are violent, dangerous incompetents who regularly get away with murder" has been the perception of them for a long time in most of the developed world, really. This was always going to be a story in Australia, the only way it could be bigger is if she was shot by a Stetson wearing, tobacco chewing sheriff from somewhere in the deep south (probably with a history of harassing minorities) to really stoke up the outrage at the stereotype.
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg »

Alkaloid wrote: 2017-08-04 10:12pm
The truly sad and disturbing part is that the racist elements in Australia and its government are so upset because the cop in question has a Muslim sounding name and his victim is a white blonde haired "damsel", and that's really the only reason this is such a high profile story.
Sorry Flagg, but that's bullshit. I'd be the last person to say there aren't racist elements in Australia and it's media, but "American cops are violent, dangerous incompetents who regularly get away with murder" has been the perception of them for a long time in most of the developed world, really. This was always going to be a story in Australia, the only way it could be bigger is if she was shot by a Stetson wearing, tobacco chewing sheriff from somewhere in the deep south (probably with a history of harassing minorities) to really stoke up the outrage at the stereotype.
It's not bullshit to the Australians I've been talking to who are minorities. I'm not saying (and they weren't saying) that it wouldn't be a story causing mass outrage, just that it wouldn't be as high profile and on the verge of an international incident (I don't know if that's hyperbole or not, but I'm repeating that verbatim from an Australian minority) if the coward cop wasn't named Mohammed.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
White Haven
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6360
Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
Location: The North Remembers, When It Can Be Bothered

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by White Haven »

God Dammit Florida wrote:TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) -- A top official with the Florida Highway Patrol has told troopers they aren't writing enough speeding tickets.

The Tampa Bay Times reports Maj. Mark Welch of Troop H in Tallahassee told troopers under his command via email that "the patrol wants to see two citations each hour" adding that it's not a quota. He said it's "what we are asking you to do to support this important initiative."

Under the SOAR -- Statewide Overtime Action Response -- initiative, troopers can make extra money by working the road.

Welch noted the 5 percent pay raise the Legislature and Gov. Rick Scott recently gave troopers, noting that it "has also increased your overtime rate."

State figures show troopers wrote 934,965 citations in 2014 compared to 749,241 last year.

Copyright 2017 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
What...what exactly does this person and his crackerjack organization think a quota IS?
Image
Image
Chronological Incontinence: Time warps around the poster. The thread topic winks out of existence and reappears in 1d10 posts.

Out of Context Theatre, this week starring Darth Nostril.
-'If you really want to fuck with these idiots tell them that there is a vaccine for chemtrails.'

Fiction!: The Final War (Bolo/Lovecraft) (Ch 7 9/15/11), Living (D&D, Complete)Image
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

White Haven wrote: 2017-08-10 10:53pm
God Dammit Florida wrote:TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) -- A top official with the Florida Highway Patrol has told troopers they aren't writing enough speeding tickets.

The Tampa Bay Times reports Maj. Mark Welch of Troop H in Tallahassee told troopers under his command via email that "the patrol wants to see two citations each hour" adding that it's not a quota. He said it's "what we are asking you to do to support this important initiative."

Under the SOAR -- Statewide Overtime Action Response -- initiative, troopers can make extra money by working the road.

Welch noted the 5 percent pay raise the Legislature and Gov. Rick Scott recently gave troopers, noting that it "has also increased your overtime rate."

State figures show troopers wrote 934,965 citations in 2014 compared to 749,241 last year.

Copyright 2017 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
What...what exactly does this person and his crackerjack organization think a quota IS?
This kind of language is common in many police departments. Some departments call it a goal while others come up with different ways to describe it. I consider it a quota when officers will receive discipline for not meeting this number or receive an incentive for meeting that number.

Though the issue can be much deeper. For example, in my city it is members of the public that are calling in and demanding police ticket speeding motorists driving fast in their neighborhood, driving too fast down a major road, etc. Keep that in mind next time you get pulled over for a minor traffic offense. It might be your next door neighbor that caused it by calling in and demanding action.

We are also under pressure to conduct stops in areas experiencing high property crime. Administrators have a hard time finding an effective way to measure this and evaluate their people so they resort to semantics.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
White Haven
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6360
Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
Location: The North Remembers, When It Can Be Bothered

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by White Haven »

One thing I demand from police is honesty. There seems to me something deeply wrong about wordplay and deception coming from the enforcers of law, and as such it's not something I tolerate at all gracefully.
Image
Image
Chronological Incontinence: Time warps around the poster. The thread topic winks out of existence and reappears in 1d10 posts.

Out of Context Theatre, this week starring Darth Nostril.
-'If you really want to fuck with these idiots tell them that there is a vaccine for chemtrails.'

Fiction!: The Final War (Bolo/Lovecraft) (Ch 7 9/15/11), Living (D&D, Complete)Image
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

White Haven wrote: 2017-08-10 11:12pm One thing I demand from police is honesty. There seems to me something deeply wrong about wordplay and deception coming from the enforcers of law, and as such it's not something I tolerate at all gracefully.
Indeed. It is done so they can get around the fact that quotas are illegal in many states but still evaluate their people and produce results for the community.

The right thing to do is tell the public that tickets are one thing they can't hold their employeed accountable for and be done with it.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
Lagmonster
Master Control Program
Master Control Program
Posts: 7719
Joined: 2002-07-04 09:53am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Lagmonster »

Kamakazie Sith wrote: 2017-08-10 11:03pmThough the issue can be much deeper. For example, in my city it is members of the public that are calling in and demanding police ticket speeding motorists driving fast in their neighborhood, driving too fast down a major road, etc. Keep that in mind next time you get pulled over for a minor traffic offense. It might be your next door neighbor that caused it by calling in and demanding action.
I used to live in a ruthlessly gentrified area of town with a bunch of other younger, upper-middle-class twits, separated from a much poorer community by a large main road. Our homeowner's association standard of practice was: if you see anything in our neighbourhood, bring it up at the homeowner's meeting so we can discuss it. If you see anything over there, call the cops immediately 'cause it's probably drugs or molestation or loitering or something.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

White Haven wrote: 2017-08-10 11:12pm One thing I demand from police is honesty. There seems to me something deeply wrong about wordplay and deception coming from the enforcers of law, and as such it's not something I tolerate at all gracefully.
Indeed. But... they are trying to square a very uncomfortable circle. The public (and law) does not want quotas. But the public also wants something that is functionally very similar to a quota, and the administrators want an ISO 9000 compliant police force complete with objective performance metrics. For a traffic or patrol cop... that means ticketing and arrest numbers, and inevitably that means some number of either that is considered "unsatisfactory" performance, even if it is informal, and that is functionally identical to a quota...

All that leaves the police themselves being like " >_>.... <_< We totally don't have quotas guys. Really. No quotas here."

Or at least that is my impression.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
Post Reply