Charlottesville: State of emergency over US far-right rally

[Civil War Man]

Also, the cops do not necessarily reflect the local culture, especially the college students.

Another example of this is what came out soon after Michael Brown's shooting, where a majority of Ferguson's population is black, but you could count the number of black officers in the Ferguson PD on one hand, and most Ferguson police officers lived in other cities.

[Broomstick]

I thought the state police were deployed quite early?

So far as a know, no, the state police were not deployed at all.

The comments about the police being outgunned come from the state governor, so I'll naturally assume he's talking about both the local city police AND the state police.

Why?

It would be a rare circumstance that the governor would send in state place to the a city, and there's no reason a governor can't comment on any event in his state.

When I'm referring to federal police, I'm talking about the FBI and etc.

The FBI would be sending in a response team against guys with semi-automatic weapons and body armor. That's a job for riot police, which aren't Federal. They certainly could be working with Feds, there is cooperation across jurisdictions when needed.

So really, the guys in Charlottesville were city police, not state police. As I said, I understand that you would not be familiar with this sort of structure but your use of "state police" to refer to what are properly described as either "local police" or "city police" is confusing at best.

I assume people will assume that local police is referring to the local state police AND the city police. Apologies if there is any misunderstanding.

Nope "local police" would be only municipal/town/city police. Even county-level police aren't called "local police", they're the "sheriff and deputies". State police are never called "local police", they are always "state police". If a governor of a state says "local police" he does NOT mean "and state police", such a thing would be expressed "local and state police".

As I said, I understand that you don't understand this. Please, do not lump "state and local" police into "local police" because the assumption would be confusing and misleading when discussion American policing.

I don't doubt that possible local sympathy by the local police to their cause might have figured into the rally being held in Charlottesville. It certainly can't be ruled out.

And isn't Charlottesville considered a more liberal university city? If a more liberal city in the South is unable to rely on the city police for sufficient protection, then I dread to think what will happen if this breaks out in a more conservative city.

Define "liberal".

Actually, there was a fairly brisk turn out among local citizens objecting to the rally, but police forces can often been more conservative than the average citizen they're protecting. There is also the possibility of corruption.

And if any city feels an event will exceed their resources they are welcome to call either other nearby cities, the sheriff, or the governor to request additional help in advance. As I said, cross-jurisdictional aid is given where needed,

[Elheru Aran]

Also, the cops do not necessarily reflect the local culture, especially the college students.

Another example of this is what came out soon after Michael Brown's shooting, where a majority of Ferguson's population is black, but you could count the number of black officers in the Ferguson PD on one hand, and most Ferguson police officers lived in other cities.

Part of the problem here is that there's often a fairly unhealthy relationship between college students and the local town, especially in smaller towns where the population grows 50-100% every fall and goes down by about the same in the summer. Police will be hired from the residents or from neighboring towns, and unsympathetic to the student body. Students tend to get labeled as hooligans, drunks (particularly at 'party schools'), liberals, and 'outsiders'. This can be somewhat mitigated at state schools where at least the majority of students come from inside the state and often locally, but it's still bad sometimes.

Colleges will add an extra wrinkle in that many will have their own police force. Small schools they'll be glorified rent-a-cops, but at the big state schools they can be a full force in their own right, with squad cars, pistols, lock-ups and all. So in a college town, you may have the school police force, the town police force, the county sheriff, county police force (if applicable), neighboring (same county) towns' police forces...

EDIT: I went to one of these small-town big-state-college combinations. The town cops definitely weren't friendly to college students. Even the college police force itself could come down with a heavy hand on occasion. There was quite a bit of friction between the local government and the student body, as the town would use any excuse to close down popular restaurants or bars if they thought there was too much drinking or rowdiness going on, send police patrols through popular apartment areas, and so forth.

[Alyrium Denryle]

One addition I will make to this is that even if the act of Britain abolishing slavery was relatively bloodless, the enforcement and expansion of that abolition was not. The UK shed a lot of blood and treasure over the course of decades working to shut down the transatlantic slave trade. One of the reasons they refused to intervene in the American Civil War was that many Confederate officials were openly advocating reopening the slave trade because it was cheaper to kidnap Africans and work them to death than it was to purchase slaves from the breeding plantations in states like Virginia and Maryland.

Hence the "externally imposed" bit.

A bit from Amistad. I find the last portion... therapeutic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmRyIrkDy40

[White Haven]

Important note in the whole police-force-jurisdiction bit; Virginia is weird. Counties and cities don't overlap here, so if you are in Charlottesville, you are outside the jurisdiction of any county police forces, and vice versa. Now, as has been mentioned, cooperation does occur, but you don't have that layer of overlapping jurisdiction between city and county.

[Highlord Laan]

In other news, the worthless orange cunt in chief actually asked "well what about the alt-left?" in a press conference. I shit you not.

[Khaat]

Inventing shit to cover for his supporters: free
Trump digging himself deeper in shit: priceless

[Flagg]

One addition I will make to this is that even if the act of Britain abolishing slavery was relatively bloodless, the enforcement and expansion of that abolition was not. The UK shed a lot of blood and treasure over the course of decades working to shut down the transatlantic slave trade. One of the reasons they refused to intervene in the American Civil War was that many Confederate officials were openly advocating reopening the slave trade because it was cheaper to kidnap Africans and work them to death than it was to purchase slaves from the breeding plantations in states like Virginia and Maryland.

Hence the "externally imposed" bit.

A bit from Amistad. I find the last portion... therapeutic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmRyIrkDy40

Let's also be honest, assuming a failed or never occurring American Revolution, does anyone really think the Southern colonies wouldn't have at best shown massive unrest, at worst made their own Declaration of Independence from a British Empire enforcing manumission?

[Lonestar]

And that itself is kinda my point. Europe after a horrifying war decided quite firmly to reject and prevent such groups from ever gathering strength in
I would rather have a place where the state police aren't frightened of neo-nazis as the reason why clashes broke out. One news source stated that the local police were afraid of stepping in because the milita had better guns.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/virgi ... 93151.html

Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe has said one of the reasons the police failed to control the violence during a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville was because militia members at the rally were armed with "better equipment" than the state police themselves.

“It’s easy to criticise, but I can tell you this, 80 per cent of the people here had semiautomatic weapons," Mr McAuliffe said.

I don't think you need a woman to die before Americans could take the threat seriously enough. Police being underprepared to face this kind of protest? That's quite a problem you guys have over there.

While it's certainly possible some of the armed militia that showed up were "better armed" than the VSP, it's probably a bullshit statement that the police weren't better armed in general. LE Agencies can(and do) have selectfire rifles, better body armor, MRAPs, grenade launchers, etc.

This was just T-Mac interjecting his anti-RKBA rhetoric as an excuse for the VSP unwilling to put themselves in personal danger. Some probably sympathize with them. I'm in enough Virginia firearms-related groups on FB to see individuals who work for the VSP talking about the BLM as "thugs" and straight rolling with "Heritage not Hate" profile banners to suspect many will flat out refuse to stop alt-reich protestors. But having the governor admit that would be a Bad Thing, sp he doubled down on deadly "semiautomatic weapons" that made them more heavily armed than the VSP, as if the VSP was using fucking lever-actions and SAO revolvers.

[Lonestar]

Another example of this is what came out soon after Michael Brown's shooting, where a majority of Ferguson's population is black, but you could count the number of black officers in the Ferguson PD on one hand, and most Ferguson police officers lived in other cities.

Most cops view urban LE agencies as just a stepping stone for experience before seeking out a better job in a affluent suburb LE agency, or possible a Federal or statie one.

[Flagg]

And that itself is kinda my point. Europe after a horrifying war decided quite firmly to reject and prevent such groups from ever gathering strength in
I would rather have a place where the state police aren't frightened of neo-nazis as the reason why clashes broke out. One news source stated that the local police were afraid of stepping in because the milita had better guns.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/virgi ... 93151.html

Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe has said one of the reasons the police failed to control the violence during a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville was because militia members at the rally were armed with "better equipment" than the state police themselves.

“It’s easy to criticise, but I can tell you this, 80 per cent of the people here had semiautomatic weapons," Mr McAuliffe said.

I don't think you need a woman to die before Americans could take the threat seriously enough. Police being underprepared to face this kind of protest? That's quite a problem you guys have over there.

While it's certainly possible some of the armed militia that showed up were "better armed" than the VSP, it's probably a bullshit statement that the police weren't better armed in general. LE Agencies can(and do) have selectfire rifles, better body armor, MRAPs, grenade launchers, etc.

This was just T-Mac interjecting his anti-RKBA rhetoric as an excuse for the VSP unwilling to put themselves in personal danger. Some probably sympathize with them. I'm in enough Virginia firearms-related groups on FB to see individuals who work for the VSP talking about the BLM as "thugs" and straight rolling with "Heritage not Hate" profile banners to suspect many will flat out refuse to stop alt-reich protestors. But having the governor admit that would be a Bad Thing, sp he doubled down on deadly "semiautomatic weapons" that made them more heavily armed than the VSP, as if the VSP was using fucking lever-actions and SAO revolvers.

Yeah, the days when cops had to go to gun stores and requisition weapons to stop 2 bank robbers ended when they had to go to a gun store and requisition weapons to stop 2 bank robbers.

[Gandalf]

I thought the state police were deployed quite early?

So far as a know, no, the state police were not deployed at all.

The state cops were there, along with the local ones and the national guard.

[Lonestar]

yup

[Gandalf]

I've been a bit out of the loop on things. What do "the SJWS" believe and what have "the SJWs" done which is so harmful?

Atleast some (with emphasis on that) believe in various toxic things about race, over reliance on identity politics that further divide people, and an emphasis on minor "micro aggression" rather then real injustice. And some (again emphasis) SJWs have been just a violent as Neo-Nazis at rallies. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of SJWs even when I agree with them but I'm also not putting them on the same level as Neo-Nazis other then to illustrate the importance of free speech.

So you've gone from "the SJWs" to "some SJWs." If I ask you to further back up your claims, will you then downscale them to be "one guy I saw at university?"

[Flagg]

I've been a bit out of the loop on things. What do "the SJWS" believe and what have "the SJWs" done which is so harmful?

Atleast some (with emphasis on that) believe in various toxic things about race, over reliance on identity politics that further divide people, and an emphasis on minor "micro aggression" rather then real injustice. And some (again emphasis) SJWs have been just a violent as Neo-Nazis at rallies. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of SJWs even when I agree with them but I'm also not putting them on the same level as Neo-Nazis other then to illustrate the importance of free speech.

So you've gone from "the SJWs" to "some SJWs." If I ask you to further back up your claims, will you then downscale them to be "one guy I saw at university?"

I'm still waiting for the weasely little shit to admit his assertion that Ruby Ridge (Bush I) and Waco (totally different and barely into Clinton's first term) proves that "both sides are bad". I'd hold my breath but don't want to pass out and wake up on the floor.

[ray245]

While it's certainly possible some of the armed militia that showed up were "better armed" than the VSP, it's probably a bullshit statement that the police weren't better armed in general. LE Agencies can(and do) have selectfire rifles, better body armor, MRAPs, grenade launchers, etc.

This was just T-Mac interjecting his anti-RKBA rhetoric as an excuse for the VSP unwilling to put themselves in personal danger. Some probably sympathize with them. I'm in enough Virginia firearms-related groups on FB to see individuals who work for the VSP talking about the BLM as "thugs" and straight rolling with "Heritage not Hate" profile banners to suspect many will flat out refuse to stop alt-reich protestors. But having the governor admit that would be a Bad Thing, sp he doubled down on deadly "semiautomatic weapons" that made them more heavily armed than the VSP, as if the VSP was using fucking lever-actions and SAO revolvers.

So they are heavily armed in general, but the police are still unwilling to take the right actions because they don't want to be in personal danger? Isn't that still quite fucked up?

[Lonestar]

Yup.

My point is that when someone says "the cops are outgunned..." they are lying and are just trying to deflect or push another agenda. Our governor is actually notoriously anti-gun, so of course he hit that. Especially since the real reason would be politically unpalatable to state publicly.

[ray245]

So far as a know, no, the state police were not deployed at all.

Gandalf seems to think otherwise.

Why?

Because it's resources available to the state governor without relying on federal help?

It would be a rare circumstance that the governor would send in state place to the a city, and there's no reason a governor can't comment on any event in his state.

The FBI would be sending in a response team against guys with semi-automatic weapons and body armor. That's a job for riot police, which aren't Federal. They certainly could be working with Feds, there is cooperation across jurisdictions when needed.

Nope "local police" would be only municipal/town/city police. Even county-level police aren't called "local police", they're the "sheriff and deputies". State police are never called "local police", they are always "state police". If a governor of a state says "local police" he does NOT mean "and state police", such a thing would be expressed "local and state police".

As I said, I understand that you don't understand this. Please, do not lump "state and local" police into "local police" because the assumption would be confusing and misleading when discussion American policing.

The statement by the governor didn't exactly specify whether he is talking about the state police, local city police or both. Hence the confusion.

Define "liberal".

Relative to other towns or cities in Virginia.

Actually, there was a fairly brisk turn out among local citizens objecting to the rally, but police forces can often been more conservative than the average citizen they're protecting. There is also the possibility of corruption.

And if any city feels an event will exceed their resources they are welcome to call either other nearby cities, the sheriff, or the governor to request additional help in advance. As I said, cross-jurisdictional aid is given where needed,

So what's going to happen if the neo-nazis have a rally in the more conservative areas in the US? Can the counter-protestors expect any reasonable protection from the police there?

Yup.

My point is that when someone says "the cops are outgunned..." they are lying and are just trying to deflect or push another agenda. Our governor is actually notoriously anti-gun, so of course he hit that. Especially since the real reason would be politically unpalatable to state publicly.

At the end of the day, the end result is still the same. As a non-American, I find it hard to say I believe there is sufficient protection offered to the counter protestors or people that are intimidated by neo-nazis.

[Lonestar]

Individual cops in the US frequently(not all of them, KS works for SLC which is considered one of the most professional agencies in the country) say that their primary mission is to "get home to their families", not engage with the community, serve & protect, etc.

You'll note that in Dallas the local BLM frequently open carries firearms and the DPD doesn't really crack down on the protests, even though it's a mantra that cops will do so if the OC activists are black. I think it's more a reflection on the "I don't want to do more than the bare minimum unless I have overwhelming force" attitude so many have.

Add in that many VSP LEOs are at least mildly sympathetic to the alt-reich, I'm not hugely surprised that the VSP didn't do much until there were literal bodies on the ground thanks to a terrorist attack. There's a reason why the Guard were called in.

[Flagg]

So far as a know, no, the state police were not deployed at all.

Gandalf seems to think otherwise.

Why?

Because it's resources available to the state governor without relying on federal help?

It would be a rare circumstance that the governor would send in state place to the a city, and there's no reason a governor can't comment on any event in his state.

The FBI would be sending in a response team against guys with semi-automatic weapons and body armor. That's a job for riot police, which aren't Federal. They certainly could be working with Feds, there is cooperation across jurisdictions when needed.

Nope "local police" would be only municipal/town/city police. Even county-level police aren't called "local police", they're the "sheriff and deputies". State police are never called "local police", they are always "state police". If a governor of a state says "local police" he does NOT mean "and state police", such a thing would be expressed "local and state police".

As I said, I understand that you don't understand this. Please, do not lump "state and local" police into "local police" because the assumption would be confusing and misleading when discussion American policing.

The statement by the governor didn't exactly specify whether he is talking about the state police, local city police or both. Hence the confusion.

Define "liberal".

Relative to other towns or cities in Virginia.

Actually, there was a fairly brisk turn out among local citizens objecting to the rally, but police forces can often been more conservative than the average citizen they're protecting. There is also the possibility of corruption.

And if any city feels an event will exceed their resources they are welcome to call either other nearby cities, the sheriff, or the governor to request additional help in advance. As I said, cross-jurisdictional aid is given where needed,

So what's going to happen if the neo-nazis have a rally in the more conservative areas in the US? Can the counter-protestors expect any reasonable protection from the police there?

Yup.

My point is that when someone says "the cops are outgunned..." they are lying and are just trying to deflect or push another agenda. Our governor is actually notoriously anti-gun, so of course he hit that. Especially since the real reason would be politically unpalatable to state publicly.

At the end of the day, the end result is still the same. As a non-American, I find it hard to say I believe there is sufficient protection offered to the counter protestors or people that are intimidated by neo-nazis.

That is because you are still sane. Because there isn't.

[Batman]

If you think your primary mission is to make it home to your family you have no business being a cop. As a cop your job is to see to it that other people make it home to their families, occasionally even at the cost of your life. Don't wan't to run that risk? Don't be a cop.

[Flagg]

Individual cops in the US frequently(not all of them, KS works for SLC which is considered one of the most professional agencies in the country) say that their primary mission is to "get home to their families", not engage with the community, serve & protect, etc.

You'll note that in Dallas the local BLM frequently open carries firearms and the DPD doesn't really crack down on the protests, even though it's a mantra that cops will do so if the OC activists are black. I think it's more a reflection on the "I don't want to do more than the bare minimum unless I have overwhelming force" attitude so many have.

Add in that many VSP LEOs are at least mildly sympathetic to the alt-reich, I'm not hugely surprised that the VSP didn't do much until there were literal bodies on the ground thanks to a terrorist attack. There's a reason why the Guard were called in.

I've been calling them "cowards with guns" for quite some time, and I hate that more often than not, that's the case. I make hyperbolic statements a lot, but I can't say that's one of them. I wish I could. There was a time when I had a lot of respect for law enforcement. I worked in security for fucks sake, I worked with former, future, and wannabe cops. On an individual basis they were mostly decent people. But I can't close my eyes and pretend that what's going on isn't going on. It's not a political issue for me, it's seeing flagrant abuse going unpunished on a daily basis. Something will have to give. Like I said in the sticky thread, it's a house of cards.

[Highlord Laan]

It's a house of cards that may well come crumbling down in our lifetime, since we've now got a president praising nazis as "fine people," an entire political system devoted solely to perpetuating itself, and a nation divided to the point of hatred and violence.

It will explode, and all the piteous hand-wringing and crying over ideals in the world won't stop it. It might have been headed off forty years ago, bit it's too late now.

[Flagg]

It's a house of cards that may well come crumbling down in our lifetime, since we've now got a president praising nazis as "fine people," an entire political system devoted solely to perpetuating itself, and a nation divided to the point of hatred and violence.

It will explode, and all the piteous hand-wringing and crying over ideals in the world won't stop it. It might have been headed off forty years ago, bit it's too late now.

Honestly, the sooner the better. Remove the tumor before it metastasizes.

[Broomstick]

So far as a know, no, the state police were not deployed at all.

Gandalf seems to think otherwise.

Hence I said "as far as I know", because I don't pretend to have all the information here.

At the end of the day, the end result is still the same. As a non-American, I find it hard to say I believe there is sufficient protection offered to the counter protestors or people that are intimidated by neo-nazis.

It really does depend on where you are. In Chicago or New York or other major urban centers there will be adequate crowd control. And in some other places there won't be because folks in charge or in law enforcement are themselves alt-right. That's my point, you can't extrapolate from Charlottesville to the entire US.