Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

[NecronLord]

Yeah, that's confirmed, it was at Warhammer Fest.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Sweet. I wonder if they'll produce a mini for the Emperor Titan variant with a carrier deck on it's back/shoulders.

[Elheru Aran]

Forgeworld has already produced a Warlord. Mars Pattern beetle back though, which isn't really my favorite, I always liked the boxy Lucius Pattern better.

If they made an Imperator I guess they'd probably go Mars pattern again. I suspect for Adeptus Titanicus they might be more likely to produce small scale minis though.

[NecronLord]

Yeah, Adeptus Titanicus is going to be a smaller scale, more in line with the old epic game.

[Imperial Overlord]

They're also apparently (according to the guy in my local shop anyways) bringing Adeptus Titanicus back as well. Which could be cool.

Sweet. It had its issues, but it was a fun game. Hopefully a revamped version will play better.

[GuppyShark]

The Emperor is described in the new Dark Imperium novel as Guilliman reflects on having had mental contact with him, as an emotionless monster (for officianados of the older fluff, this should be unsurprising, as he excised his compassion and it became the Star Child).

How did he react to that?

It was my impression that Roboute represented the 'ideal' Patriarch in the same way that the Ultramarines came to represent the 'ideal' Space Marines. The closest to Actual Good Guys you would ever see in Warhammer 40,000. Pax Roboute.

[Ave Dominus Nox]

The Emperor is described in the new Dark Imperium novel as Guilliman reflects on having had mental contact with him, as an emotionless monster (for officianados of the older fluff, this should be unsurprising, as he excised his compassion and it became the Star Child).

How did he react to that?

It was my impression that Roboute represented the 'ideal' Patriarch in the same way that the Ultramarines came to represent the 'ideal' Space Marines. The closest to Actual Good Guys you would ever see in Warhammer 40,000. Pax Roboute.

Primarch, not Patriarch. Also I'm not sure ideal is the right word.

He's so beloved in the "modern" Imperium because he was basically its second founder. He broke up the legions, served as the leader of the first High Lords of Terra and his treatises governed nearly every aspect of Imperial government and military. He's got the proverbial weight of history on his side. In fact the only Primarch with a better standing is Sanguinius... for the whole angelic martyr thing.

During the Great Crusade/Heresy era he wasn't so popular. After all he didn't appear to be counted among the Emperor's favorite sons Horus, Sanguinius and Fulgrim and was noted an more than one occasion to be at odds with many of the other Primarchs. It probably doesn't help that he spent most of the crusade skirting the edge of treason, his empire-building adventures, and in the Heresy itself technically did commit treason with the whole Imperium Secundus and crowning a new Emperor.

To be fair I do like Guilliman and his "treasons" are forgivable when you understand the reason given. Also I always liked that he seemed to be the only primarch, other than Logar ironically, that seemed to have an idea of what to do when the war was over and the Crusade won. His Astartes after all weren't just warriors but leaders of nations and governors. Where most of the other Primarchs conquered and moved on Guilliman rebuilt and incorporated the worlds he conquered into Ultramar. After all building an empire is often the easiest part, ruling it, securing it is shown to be far harder.

[GuppyShark]

Thankyou for the corrections. The last time I actually gave a shit about 40k I was in school, and I'm nearly 40 now.

This was all excellent information, I'm curious how much of it was crafted post-2nd. It does nonetheless make sense.

[Elheru Aran]

Thankyou for the corrections. The last time I actually gave a shit about 40k I was in school, and I'm nearly 40 now.

This was all excellent information, I'm curious how much of it was crafted post-2nd. It does nonetheless make sense.

Almost all of it is post 2nd edition. First and Second edition lore/fluff is hardly reckoned anymore and generally gets relegated to a few call-backs here and there.

[Q99]

1st edition lore is weird and strange even by the standards of 2nd, it's practically an AU. 2nd is kinda a rough draft, it resembles later stuff but things have changed a lot and it's pretty rough around the edges, with a few notable subtractions (Squats) and huge additions (Tau, Necrons) compared to later stuff. 'Modern' 40k begins with third, and each one since then is more refinement than huge shift.

[Elheru Aran]

1st edition lore is weird and strange even by the standards of 2nd, it's practically an AU. 2nd is kinda a rough draft, it resembles later stuff but things have changed a lot and it's pretty rough around the edges, with a few notable subtractions (Squats) and huge additions (Tau, Necrons) compared to later stuff. 'Modern' 40k begins with third, and each one since then is more refinement than huge shift.

Didn't Tau and Necrons not come onto the scene until 3rd? Granted there were some REALLY early OldCrons towards the end of 2nd, the 'Space Robots' or whatever. Pretty sure Tau were fairly new when I came onto 40K in the early 00s though.

I'm just nitpicking here though, I agree with the rest of what you say.

I would analyze it a bit further and say that there are probably four or five distinct stages of 40K history as a game. I can't speak to it *as a game* as far as play, strategies, whatever go, as I've never actually played, but I have followed it to some extent ever since I discovered it around 4th Ed.

+++You start with Rogue Trader/1E which is basically 80s British grimdark dystopian cyberpunk 2000AD-style SF. It wasn't much more than Space Marines, Chaos Marines, Space Orks, Squats and that was about it.

+++2nd starts getting its shit together and realizing 'oh hey this might be something', codifying more lore, trying to be a little less wacky. You start getting more Codexes, more interesting variety of factions. Old-school Guard with all its different armies, Oldcrons show up, Tyranids in all their garish multicolor blobby weirdness.

+++3rd and 4th are the real start of serious modern 40K, particularly with Black Library putting out books and the expansion of the game into a full-fledged universe in its own right. After 3rd you start seeing basically what we have of each faction in more or less its modern incarnation. 4th expands on that mostly by building on the fluff for each faction.

Horus Heresy gets introduced in the mid-00s and starts influencing the lore. IIRC we don't see an actual HH game until later, though. Early 2010s? Sort of a separate continuity/AU from the 40K games. Pretty sure it's remained very consistent as far as game play goes, largely due to the rules being from Forgeworld. Lore in the rulebooks isn't particularly impressive but does expand considerably on what's depicted in the HH novel series.

+++5th-8th I can't speak as much about, as I haven't followed them THAT much. However the main changes they brought were updating some long-overdue codexes like Eldar, Necrons and Orks. They also introduced new lore for existing factions, notably Daemonhunters/Grey Knights, Space Marines in general. Some popular, some not (see: Matt Ward). IIRC this is when they introduced the Chaos Daemons as a separate faction.

Battle Sisters still never get any love

Late 7th Ed or so, they start actually Advancing the Plot (TM). They introduce Custodes and Sisters of Silence, official Primarch models starting with Magnus, and kick off Gathering Storm culminating in the fall of Cadia (CADIA STANDS!) and the resurrection of Roboute Guilliman. 8th, lore-wise, is a definite shift down the timeline, which is fairly revolutionary for GW. So I'd argue that late 7th-8th is the start of a new 'stage' at least.

[Bedlam]

1st edition lore is weird and strange even by the standards of 2nd, it's practically an AU. 2nd is kinda a rough draft, it resembles later stuff but things have changed a lot and it's pretty rough around the edges, with a few notable subtractions (Squats) and huge additions (Tau, Necrons) compared to later stuff. 'Modern' 40k begins with third, and each one since then is more refinement than huge shift.

Didn't Tau and Necrons not come onto the scene until 3rd? Granted there were some REALLY early OldCrons towards the end of 2nd, the 'Space Robots' or whatever. Pretty sure Tau were fairly new when I came onto 40K in the early 00s though.

I'm just nitpicking here though, I agree with the rest of what you say.

I would analyze it a bit further and say that there are probably four or five distinct stages of 40K history as a game. I can't speak to it *as a game* as far as play, strategies, whatever go, as I've never actually played, but I have followed it to some extent ever since I discovered it around 4th Ed.

+++You start with Rogue Trader/1E which is basically 80s British grimdark dystopian cyberpunk 2000AD-style SF. It wasn't much more than Space Marines, Chaos Marines, Space Orks, Squats and that was about it.

+++2nd starts getting its shit together and realizing 'oh hey this might be something', codifying more lore, trying to be a little less wacky. You start getting more Codexes, more interesting variety of factions. Old-school Guard with all its different armies, Oldcrons show up, Tyranids in all their garish multicolor blobby weirdness.

+++3rd and 4th are the real start of serious modern 40K, particularly with Black Library putting out books and the expansion of the game into a full-fledged universe in its own right. After 3rd you start seeing basically what we have of each faction in more or less its modern incarnation. 4th expands on that mostly by building on the fluff for each faction.

Horus Heresy gets introduced in the mid-00s and starts influencing the lore. IIRC we don't see an actual HH game until later, though. Early 2010s? Sort of a separate continuity/AU from the 40K games. Pretty sure it's remained very consistent as far as game play goes, largely due to the rules being from Forgeworld. Lore in the rulebooks isn't particularly impressive but does expand considerably on what's depicted in the HH novel series.

+++5th-8th I can't speak as much about, as I haven't followed them THAT much. However the main changes they brought were updating some long-overdue codexes like Eldar, Necrons and Orks. They also introduced new lore for existing factions, notably Daemonhunters/Grey Knights, Space Marines in general. Some popular, some not (see: Matt Ward). IIRC this is when they introduced the Chaos Daemons as a separate faction.

Battle Sisters still never get any love

Late 7th Ed or so, they start actually Advancing the Plot (TM). They introduce Custodes and Sisters of Silence, official Primarch models starting with Magnus, and kick off Gathering Storm culminating in the fall of Cadia (CADIA STANDS!) and the resurrection of Roboute Guilliman. 8th, lore-wise, is a definite shift down the timeline, which is fairly revolutionary for GW. So I'd argue that late 7th-8th is the start of a new 'stage' at least.

A few extra nit picks: -

Tyranids were in the original Rogue Traider, there were a number (6 or 7 I think) hive fleets wandering around the galaxy, they got the same weapon list as all the other races but their's were considered to be organic. There were two types of Tyranids described, the default tyranid which looked sort of half way between the current Tyranid Warriors and Gaunts and Zoats who were reptilian centaur things which acted as tyranid diplomats and were fed on Zotabix (they and the Slann appear in one of the first Black Library books, Space Marine).

The first Horus Heresy game was released in 1993 (I have a copy) it was a large scale board game with cardboard pieces, they also released a sort of spin off of it in White Dwarf where there was an extra board for the battle between the emperor and Horus and their forces on the latter's flag ship. In addition Adaptus Titanicus (which eventually grew into Space Marine and then Epic 40K) came out 2-3 years earlier and was set during the Horus Heresy to explain why two Imperial Titans were fighting each other.

[GuppyShark]

When I left home to go to Uni, my parents ebayed my White Dwarf collection. It included that amazing issue with the Horus Heresy story and the battle barge cardboard chit game.

It got good money though.

[Elheru Aran]

A few extra nit picks: -

Tyranids were in the original Rogue Traider, there were a number (6 or 7 I think) hive fleets wandering around the galaxy, they got the same weapon list as all the other races but their's were considered to be organic. There were two types of Tyranids described, the default tyranid which looked sort of half way between the current Tyranid Warriors and Gaunts and Zoats who were reptilian centaur things which acted as tyranid diplomats and were fed on Zotabix (they and the Slann appear in one of the first Black Library books, Space Marine).

The first Horus Heresy game was released in 1993 (I have a copy) it was a large scale board game with cardboard pieces, they also released a sort of spin off of it in White Dwarf where there was an extra board for the battle between the emperor and Horus and their forces on the latter's flag ship. In addition Adaptus Titanicus (which eventually grew into Space Marine and then Epic 40K) came out 2-3 years earlier and was set during the Horus Heresy to explain why two Imperial Titans were fighting each other.

Correction received and duly noted. Also, I had no idea Nids were that old. Fascinating.

[Q99]

Yes, Necrons showed up in 3ed.

I phrased it poorly, but what I meant was "If you look at 2nd, you'll see Squats (barely) and notice a lack of those two races."

---
The RT and 2ed era had tons of small spinoffs like Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine/Titan Legions/Epic, Space Hulk, Space Fleet, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, and so on. In addition to the Horus Heresy game mentioned, there was 'Doom of the Eldar,' the Iyanden invasion one, for cardboard large-scale wargames.

They still make the occasional side game, but back in the day, there were lots of them.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Side games seem to be making a comeback - Blood Bowl and Necromunda are either back or soon will be, and according to the guys at my local shop Adeptus Titanicus is up soon.

Here's hoping that they bring Battlefleet Gothic back, that shit was cool.

[Elheru Aran]

Side games seem to be making a comeback - Blood Bowl and Necromunda are either back or soon will be, and according to the guys at my local shop Adeptus Titanicus is up soon.

Here's hoping that they bring Battlefleet Gothic back, that shit was cool.

I expect this is largely due to the success of the HH reboot. It came out a while ago and is doing pretty healthily. Introducing official GW-made box sets for it, as opposed to having to buy individual bits from Forgeworld, probably helped a lot.

[Q99]

BFG was my favorite game on multiple levels. Gameplay wise, scale, look, etc..

[Ender]

All new (post 2011) lore not written by ADB is complete bullshit. A pox on Ward and a pox on all this bullshit. Fuck you, you know I'm right

[streetad]

When I left home to go to Uni, my parents ebayed my White Dwarf collection. It included that amazing issue with the Horus Heresy story and the battle barge cardboard chit game.

It got good money though.

I remember that issue well. It was to tie in with the larger Horus Heresy boardgame which was actually pretty awesome until you lost enough of the hundreds of little counters down the back of the bed/sofa/wherever. There were a ton of early concepts for things that they didn't flesh out until much later.

I think they did introduce Necrons right at the end of 2nd edition as I remember them giving one away with White Dwarf and I definitely didn't play the game after 2nd.

That edition was the one where they were building all the lore and kind of making it up as they went along so everything eventually got far too complicated and it would take around six hours to play a game. Good fun though and you could build some very weird and wonderful combinations of armies and wargear.

Incidentally I read somewhere recently that the 'Zoats' which made up part of the Tyranid army right at the beginning were the result of GW owner Brian Ansell trying to come up with an original race to be the 'face' of the Warhammer franchise and make it stand out as it's own IP, inspired by the way Beholders were being used by D&D. They were just really poorly designed and conceptualised...

[GuppyShark]

Yes, Necrons were first hinted at in Gorkamorka and then released in 2nd edition. 2nd edition ran for quite a while, IIRC.

[Lonestar]

Got finished reading Master of Mankind. Man, the GE is a inhuman monster. I think it pretty much shoots to pieces the theory that "no, it was the 10,000 years on the throne that made him the way he was". No wonder that the Primarchs had daddy issues.

Reading the new Astartes Codex. RG supposedly is raising new armies and fleets, indicating that there is a lot of slack in the IoM resource pool. What didn't the High Lords raise more forces beforehand? Are they worried about their own power if the IG trebles in size or something?

[Khaat]

My understanding would be that the bureaucracy is/was stifling the true productivity of the EoM: "With regret, your great-great-great-great-great grandfather's request for additional armor regiments is denied: it seems your planet was eaten by Tyranids 200 years ago. You (or your successors, if any) will be fined for wasting the Administratum's resources in compiling this data." It's kind of the thing, where Chaos and orks and tyranids weren't the only thing eating the EoM; there was the paperwork.

Also four magic words: As the Emperor Commands. Not "we think" or "with the Emperor's Seal in our sausage fingers, set in motion the mountains of paperwork...", but "He said now."

[NecronLord]

@Lonestar
Spoiler

Laurie Goulding's new audiobook Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium has Malcador reveal that the primarch daddy issues and rivalries were intentional, and that the Emperor always planned for them to revolt and kill each other off, only that he didn't plan for chaos to get in. The Emperor being a bad parent is not a bug, it is a feature.

The plan was to let the Primarchs and Astartes kill each other, then send in the Ten Thousand Custodians to finish them off.

The armies in question were supposed to be held in reserve to fight each other by the High Lords.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I don't like this ride any more.


Seriously, though, did Rian Johnson get to Black Library? Grimdark not grimdark enough? Too bad grimderp has already been coined, because this revelation would have been the perfect opportunity.