Demolition Man- Utopian, Dystopian, or other?

[Q99]

Ok, so I was talking about the really-fun Stallone movie Demolition Man recently, and I got into a discussion on whether or not it was Dystopian or not.


My view is the society is supposed to be overall admirable and utopian, but with flaws and very vulnerable, while the leader was pushing it forward to more 'No Dissent Allowed/Fun is Mandatory,' style dystopia and Simon threatening to just break it and send it falling apart.

The other person I was talking about it with viewed it as a Dystopia in the style of Brave New World and similar 'conditioning' Dystopias, if not as extreme, and the happiness and relatively shallowness of most of the futurites' interests, the lack of touching and such was intended to put it more in that category.

I personally felt the lack of coersive element (i.e. swearing gets a nigh-inconsequential fine, the police are honest and won't knock on your door for frowning too much, knowledge about the past is freely available- but the psycho-conditioning of the prisoners being the exception and something to worry about what *could* happen) keeps it from being a dystopia, but I'm curious where all of you rate it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Dystopian, certainly. Not to the extent of something like 1984, but a softer, more subtle form of despotism.

[Q99]

Dystopian, certainly. Not to the extent of something like 1984, but a softer, more subtle form of despotism.

I'm of the opinion that if you have the freedom to learn what you want, do most of what you want, and leave if you want... it's sorta too soft to quality. Like, it has aspects which if amplified would qualify, but if it never changes it's just... a nice place.

[Elheru Aran]

Aspiring utopia, borderline dystopia. It seemed rather controlling in many ways, and the heavy reliance/obsession with the one leader guy was a problem. But overall, yes, it was pretty 'soft'. It's not a place I'd have WANTED to live necessarily... but if the alternative was worse? It's not the worst place to be if one is reasonably law-abiding by nature.

Did they ever mention what the OTHER countries in the world were like?

[Batman]

Mildly dystopian. Infinitely better than places like 1984, the Mad Max universe or Mega-City One, but still dystopian. You can't swear without being fined, there's no actual sex in sex, there's no fun food. 'That's not even within hailing distance of a utopia.

[The Romulan Republic]

Aspiring utopia, borderline dystopia. It seemed rather controlling in many ways, and the heavy reliance/obsession with the one leader guy was a problem. But overall, yes, it was pretty 'soft'. It's not a place I'd have WANTED to live necessarily... but if the alternative was worse? It's not the worst place to be if one is reasonably law-abiding by nature.

Did they ever mention what the OTHER countries in the world were like?

I wonder...

Maybe they're all different shades of dystopia. You have peaceful sterilized conformity utopia (like straw man United Federation of Planets) in California, maybe Mad Max-verse in Australia, 1984 over in England, etc.

[Lord Revan]

Dystopian, certainly. Not to the extent of something like 1984, but a softer, more subtle form of despotism.

indeed. The devil is in the details here, at surface it might seem like utopia but it is that only to very specific ideology, there's no room for diversity just a forced stillness. That's what makes it a Dystopia the suppression of diversity isn't a mistake it's intentional and integral part of the system.

EDIT:sterile is indeed a very good term to describe it.

[Q99]

Mildly dystopian. Infinitely better than places like 1984, the Mad Max universe or Mega-City One, but still dystopian. You can't swear without being fined, there's no actual sex in sex, there's no fun food. 'That's not even within hailing distance of a utopia.

Truue, but the sex bit isn't disallowed, just not really part of their culture (*probably* due to matters like the AIDS crisis, which was coming into the news and huge when the movie hit), and the food thing... ok, they need more variety but food wars, whatcha gonna do? Basically, aside from the swearing those are non-enforced cultural issues rather than actual can't-do things. And the swearing fines are minor enough that Spartan had no apparent real consequences for going for the record, a cop's paycheck seems like it handled it. Is it really dystopian to be a society with minor bad-sides most of which are non-enforced cultural ones? I kinda feel like that's too soft a take for the word, even a mild one.

I mean, like... I'm pretty sure Spartan liked it better than the modern day in the end, it just needed some tweeks and the removal of the boss who'd push more controls as long as he could.

[Batman]

People don't stop doing something that is still allowed, wired into human biology, and fun without some form of pressure.
Who cares about the food wars? So what if...Taco Bell I believe it was in the original? (They made it Pizza Hut in the german version because hardly anybody over here knew what Taco Bell is) won the Food Wars? There's plenty of independent operators. I have half a dozen places where I can get a burger, double that if I want a pizza, within easy walking distance and the nearest McD's is 8 km away. The nearest PizzaHut is in Cologne.
Who says the swearing fines came out of Spartan's paycheck? In real world America there are no consequences when a cop flat out murders someone, who says the department didn't foot the bill? Especially for the hero cop they unthawed to do what they couldn't.
As dystopias go it's a pretty nice one but it's still a dystopia.

[FaxModem1]

I do wish to point out that prior to the events of the film, the underclass were forced to robbing restaurants(when they weren't making rat burgers) in order to survive, and their worst crime? Deploying graffiti on signs that was removed by machines a couple seconds later.

The question is why these people aren't just moving out of San Angeles, unless they're just too poor to do so? Or does Cocteau somehow control the borders? We really don't get a sense of what the world is outside Southern California.

I'd say mildly Dystopian.

[Q99]

I do wish to point out that prior to the events of the film, the underclass were forced to robbing restaurants(when they weren't making rat burgers) in order to survive, and their worst crime? Deploying graffiti on signs that was removed by machines a couple seconds later.

The question is why these people aren't just moving out of San Angeles, unless they're just too poor to do so? Or does Cocteau somehow control the borders? We really don't get a sense of what the world is outside Southern California.

I'd say mildly Dystopian.

Fair point, with the flipside, it's like... they aren't living like that just because they're poor, they're active rebels following Friendly who decided to move outside the system. San Angeles doesn't have people who are just poor due to bad luck or committing a crime, it has people who are poor due to opting out, and the police aren't beating them or anything (I may be a bit jaded by our increased knowledge from police body cameras).

Though I must say, as rebels they're pretty nice too. It's a pretty kid-gloves conflict on both sides.

It does definitely raise the question of what's outside San Angeles.

Who says the swearing fines came out of Spartan's paycheck? In real world America there are no consequences when a cop flat out murders someone, who says the department didn't foot the bill? Especially for the hero cop they unthawed to do what they couldn't.

Doesn't that just make the pressure even less...?

And, here's a pretty major thing: The police murder no-one. They beat no-one. The police are incredibly nice, friendly, honest, and fairly ideal. They have the swear-fines in their own station which does mean that they apply their own rules to themselves.

Honestly the quality of the police is a large part of what makes it hard for me to call it a dystopia. So much of the pressures used to control things are so... voluntary and soft and they as a society actually don't escalate to violent coersion. Even if I went around punching people I'd be gentle knocked out and then wake up with a cop trying to talk to me about my problems.

People don't stop doing something that is still allowed, wired into human biology, and fun without some form of pressure.

We know the pressure isn't the police though, and Huxley cites risk of infection. That speaks to me of pressure in response to major disease problems or something.

[FaxModem1]

I do wish to point out that prior to the events of the film, the underclass were forced to robbing restaurants(when they weren't making rat burgers) in order to survive, and their worst crime? Deploying graffiti on signs that was removed by machines a couple seconds later.

The question is why these people aren't just moving out of San Angeles, unless they're just too poor to do so? Or does Cocteau somehow control the borders? We really don't get a sense of what the world is outside Southern California.

I'd say mildly Dystopian.

Fair point, with the flipside, it's like... they aren't living like that just because they're poor, they're active rebels following Friendly who decided to move outside the system. San Angeles doesn't have people who are just poor due to bad luck or committing a crime, it has people who are poor due to opting out, and the police aren't beating them or anything (I may be a bit jaded by our increased knowledge from police body cameras).

Though I must say, as rebels they're pretty nice too. It's a pretty kid-gloves conflict on both sides.

It does definitely raise the question of what's outside San Angeles.

Then why be part of Friendly's revolution if they are having such hard times? This is like choosing to live in a gated neighborhood, or it's sewers, and not just simply living in a less regulated neighborhood. The only excuse for not being able to do so is inability, whether because the rest of the world is the same or worse in some capacity, or the inability to leave Southern California due to not being able to afford travel or a home elsewhere. (Unless they really like rat burgers)

[Q99]

Or they're a small group who have a charismatic leader who's cause they feel strongly attached to, and they *do* like a fair number of aspects of their way of life (I mean, Spartan reports the rat burger as excellent, it's gross to *us* but it's meat).... we don't exactly know how long this has been going on.

[Gandalf]

"Cigarettes are not good for you and it has been deemed that everything that is not good for you is bad. Hence... illegal. Alcohol, caffeine, contact sports, meat, bad language, chocolate, gasoline, uneducational toys, and anything spicy. Abortion's also illegal, but then again so's pregnancy if you don't have a license."

Yeah, that's no utopia. It's sounds like a theocratic nightmare.

People don't stop doing something that is still allowed, wired into human biology, and fun without some form of pressure.
Who cares about the food wars? So what if...Taco Bell I believe it was in the original? (They made it Pizza Hut in the german version because hardly anybody over here knew what Taco Bell is) won the Food Wars? There's plenty of independent operators. I have half a dozen places where I can get a burger, double that if I want a pizza, within easy walking distance and the nearest McD's is 8 km away. The nearest PizzaHut is in Cologne.

Fun fact: It's Pizza Hut in all modern versions, as they (or their parent company) bought out Taco Bell and had the lines rerecorded. It's not well re-dubbed, even in English.

[B5B7]

I always thought of it as a dystopia. Sure the people are nice, but why are they nice?
In 'Brave New World' people were nice because they were in a drugged out state and had conditioning.
Similarly the people in 'Demolition Man' must have similarly been conditioned to be non-aggressive.
This is an ideal that farmers strive for with their livestock.

[FaxModem1]

Or they're a small group who have a charismatic leader who's cause they feel strongly attached to, and they *do* like a fair number of aspects of their way of life (I mean, Spartan reports the rat burger as excellent, it's gross to *us* but it's meat).... we don't exactly know how long this has been going on.

That doesn't seem to track, as they're willing to change things after a five minute conversation with Spartan at the end of the film about getting a lot more cleaned up.

[Lord Revan]

"Cigarettes are not good for you and it has been deemed that everything that is not good for you is bad. Hence... illegal. Alcohol, caffeine, contact sports, meat, bad language, chocolate, gasoline, uneducational toys, and anything spicy. Abortion's also illegal, but then again so's pregnancy if you don't have a license."

Yeah, that's no utopia. It's sounds like a theocratic nightmare.

as I said before in this thread, the devil is in the details, in "Demolition Man" the future citizens aren't super nice and polite to you because it's the right thing to do, they're nice because not being nice is illegal, it's this artificial construct that works only if not put to the test.

[Q99]

But when Spartan goes down earlier we get a nice Dennis Lerry rant about how he likes it that way and iirc Huxley wonder why people would chose to live that way. We also see that some illegal stuff like swearing is visibly so, so it's not like they hide the controls or laws.

I know it seems like there should be sinister controls for a fair amount of this stuff but... we follow the people who are in a position to not only know but would be the enforces of it, and there's not. There's no happiness conditioning, nothing that says it's illegal to be unhappy, none of that. And heck, the psych conditioning requires going into cryosleep so it's not that either. For all that it resembles all the happiness-is-mandatory dystopias, in this one we have the info to say, no, there really *aren't* controls like that and a few days with Spartan is enough to convince them to change some stuff and be more welcoming to Friendly, but they're still the same happy people and don't talk about turning off any secret control thingies or such. The evidence of the movie is... it's really a social trend to act this way and people are happy 'cause it's pretty nice.

[Q99]

Or to put it another way, surface similarity doesn't equal content similarity. Like, there's a lot of earmarks that make it resemble a bright dystopia, but the two problems with those are (1) the quashing of the human spirit/initiative and creativity, (2) secret horrible enforcement methods that remove choice, and... those two problems don't seem to be present (But are lurking in the mind of the boss).

Creativity is still allowed (encouraged, even- Spartan was taught a new creative skill when frozen), learning about other societies allowed, making things allowed, the human spirit is not quashed, and the punishments for anything are pretty minor, when Spartan goes off and does something retro people don't act like there's some danger lurking if he does that, they're just surprised or sometimes grossed out. Pop culture taste kinda sucks but Huxley and Alfredo are still cool people who it'd be fun to hang out with.

[Gandalf]

I know it seems like there should be sinister controls for a fair amount of this stuff but... we follow the people who are in a position to not only know but would be the enforces of it, and there's not. There's no happiness conditioning, nothing that says it's illegal to be unhappy, none of that. And heck, the psych conditioning requires going into cryosleep so it's not that either. For all that it resembles all the happiness-is-mandatory dystopias, in this one we have the info to say, no, there really *aren't* controls like that and a few days with Spartan is enough to convince them to change some stuff and be more welcoming to Friendly, but they're still the same happy people and don't talk about turning off any secret control thingies or such. The evidence of the movie is... it's really a social trend to act this way and people are happy 'cause it's pretty nice.

I got the impression that it's basically a happy version of Nineteen Eighty-Four, except that they portion out happiness instead of misery. The language is so weird that they don't seem to have the word murder (except as a part of "murderdeathkill") but instead use "non-sanctioned life termination." Presumably by removing the word murder from the vocab the idea becomes harder to conceptualise. It would explain why the police are so puzzled. Meanwhile the screens keep sending positive messages to users in Newspeak, and fining them as appropriate.

Creativity is still allowed (encouraged, even- Spartan was taught a new creative skill when frozen), learning about other societies allowed, making things allowed, the human spirit is not quashed, and the punishments for anything are pretty minor, when Spartan goes off and does something retro people don't act like there's some danger lurking if he does that, they're just surprised or sometimes grossed out. Pop culture taste kinda sucks but Huxley and Alfredo are still cool people who it'd be fun to hang out with.

Creativity is encouraged, but it still only works within certain walls. One can write music, but can't swear. One can cook, provided they don't use spicy ingredients. So if I want to make good burritos and watch a Kevin Smith movie I'm in some trouble.

[Q99]

Doing a quick refresher, the reason for the sex and no-touching stuff is outbreaks of NRS and UBT, which are both reportedly even *worse* than the AIDS outbreak. So one can understand the sterile aspect of things.

I got the impression that it's basically a happy version of Nineteen Eighty-Four, except that they portion out happiness instead of misery. The language is so weird that they don't seem to have the word murder (except as a part of "murderdeathkill") but instead use "non-sanctioned life termination." Presumably by removing the word murder from the vocab the idea becomes harder to conceptualise. It would explain why the police are so puzzled. Meanwhile the screens keep sending positive messages to users in Newspeak, and fining them as appropriate.

Murder is no longer as common because they don't come up very much, but, like, Huxley was all excited about a real 'blow up the bad guys with a grin' cowboy type ("Huxley, enough! This isn't the Wild West. The Wild West wasn't even the Wild West.") and she's watched Jackie Chan flicks. They had a museum of weapons. I don't take the the use 'murderdeathkill' as the official term as a sign they're doing some sort of Newspeak thing, the language differences were pretty straightforward and mostly straightforward slang terms- which is what one would kinda expect from going 36 years into the future. They without a doubt knew what violence was, it's just they were *removed* from all but the light stuff.

MDK is perhaps notable for emphasizing and maybe stimatizing it more, but I'm not seeing much evidence of newspeak.

Creativity is encouraged, but it still only works within certain walls. One can write music, but can't swear. One can cook, provided they don't use spicy ingredients. So if I want to make good burritos and watch a Kevin Smith movie I'm in some trouble.

But, note, you can, you just face extremely mild fines for the former and have trouble finding ingredients from the latter. There's no sign you'll get mind programmed, arrested, or so on, just stuff like verbal reprimands. Highly annoying to someone like Friendly but there's no Happiness Patrol or brainwashing. And I'll note that while those restrictions are annoying, they're hardly human-defining or the big ones. You can still insult people and laugh at people too, for that matter.

John Spartan is absolutely right that they need to loosen up some, but in his words, it needs to get 'a little bit dirtier,' not a huge change, and even Friendly was "I love to hate this place," wanting it shaken up not torn down, and he *had* guns, even pretty strong ones, but didn't use 'em.


Now meanwhile, Cocteau's plan...."Now I'll have carte blanche to create the perfect society. My society. The purity of an ant colony and the beauty of a flawless pearl-" in short, he thought that San Angeles as it currently was was not even near far enough. That's scary!

I think in 5 years, 10 at the longest, they'd be a much more hardcore dystopia, as opposed to where they are now which is a not-bad place with some annoying quirks, some nice upsides, but is on a dangerous path.

[TheFeniX]

This is a hard call. That said, even with Cocteau's bullshit, the idea that in 40-years time police could have so little experience with violent criminals the line "We're police officers, we're not trained to handle this kind of violence" as all Simon really does is beat them with his bare hands is a pretty good sign that these people have their shit together. As noted, there are issues like with the whole Sex, Pregnancy, and Abortion Control angle:

HOWEVER, as has been noted: Huxley is allowed to romanticize past violence both real and fictional, men like Spartan. The rookie helicopter pilot from the beginning is still alive and a cop. He's EXPERIENCED all the LA violence. They have a public museum packed with weapons (and fucking ammo for some reasons..... and cannon balls... and WORKING BLACK POWDER FOR A CANNON. Whatever, moving on). All the info of "I could be a violent asshole if I wanted to and few people could stop me" is there and yet this society still functions. The worst they have seems to be graffiti and Leary's foul-mouthed stand-up act personified in Edgar Friendly.

Also, they still have passwords on computer systems and you don't have security if you don't need it. So, there could be more, but the movie doesn't get into it.

They got something right: the PEOPLE have access to all the info and bullshit that comes along with being human and chose NOT to be violent dicks at a level where a guy like Simon Phoenix is an outside-context problem. And they did this in like 40 years with no Earth shattering event, such as Star Trek humans having freaking space elves show up and boost their tech base.

I would assume "drugs" or "extreme conditioning" but the movie makes no mention of it. So, maybe Demo Man humans just got over their shit and all became good people.

[Q99]

They got something right: the PEOPLE have access to all the info and bullshit that comes along with being human and chose NOT to be violent dicks at a level where a guy like Simon Phoenix is an outside-context problem. And they did this in like 40 years with no Earth shattering event, such as Star Trek humans having freaking space elves show up and boost their tech base.

I would assume "drugs" or "extreme conditioning" but the movie makes no mention of it. So, maybe Demo Man humans just got over their shit and all became good people.

Pretty much my thoughts!

And Cocteau's the asshole who looks at this and goes, "No, it's not good enough, I really gotta go full Brave New World on them...".

Heck, note how when encountering an outside-context-problem like Phoenix, they immediately came up with a solution ("Let's defrost someone for whom he is in context,") which totally shocked Cocteau. He assumed that they were stupid because they were happy, but they came up with a creative solution that requires a willingness to recruit someone who does use violence, implemented their plan quickly, listened to Spartan, and used his talents well, pairing him with the officer with the best knowledge of his time.


On the 'no Earth shattering event,' there was apparently a megaquake and two worse-than-AIDS outbreaks, so things did get hairy in between. But yea, no outside help like the Vulcans, just a counteraction to bad events/building themselves up in response.

[Patroklos]

You people seem to be ignoring that this society was engineered to be this way, and that this engineer intended to use the condition of his manufactured lap dogs to make them defenseless against his further manipulation.

It's nice that they were happy while being manipulated, but whether free range organic or factory farmed, livestock still end up in the same place in the end.

[TheFeniX]

You people seem to be ignoring that this society was engineered to be this way, and that this engineer intended to use the condition of his manufactured lap dogs to make them defenseless against his further manipulation.

It's nice that they were happy while being manipulated, but whether free range organic or factory farmed, livestock still end up in the same place in the end.

True, but I have a hard time viewing this as a lot more nefarious than current cultural engineering. Huxley is looked at as weird for her choices in pop culture, but she faces zero legal repercussions that I can see, just social ones. She's shamed for her choices, not locked up or "rehabilitated." That she's allowed to exist at all, constantly showing off her belief that "VIOLENCE IS COOL!," is a hard sell for a rigorously controlled society.

But she and a lot of other people seem incredibly happy. They live Joy Joy lives. There are obviously some issues here, such as the virtual sex and other types of control, but what even are the consequences for fucking up? Maybe there is some kind of facility people get run off to, but there is no mention of it anywhere. I assume "fines," because part of the joke is that these people take the paltry fines so seriously. They basically shame everyone to "act right."

Criminals are "rehabilitated" such as Spartan being injected with professional knitting. But there's no evidence of anything other than massive amounts of social engineering. Like, DemoMan toddlers hear "WE DON'T HIT!" and then they don't hit. And the catalyst for the whole thing "breaking down," yet these people can still seem to function, is Cocteau eating it after turning out to be an asshole. So, the engineering is weak-sauce and it really comes off more that the DemoMan verse humans just don't like violence and tend to avoid it EVEN THOUGH they have the ability to dish it out if need be.

Even "Goodness no," Garcia is capable of getting his hands dirty. Another point seems to be that everyone needs to learn moderation for themselves.

I mean, the idea is pretty laughable that crime, an earthquake, and "super-AIDS" lead people to dive into the arms of Cocteau and be like "make us not suck!" Then he does so over the course of 40 years or so, and people then live in Leave it to Beaver. But based on what the movie shows, people in San Angelus are just fucking better people than we are.