Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

[Flagg]

Ok what you want me to call it then, do I have to switch to finnish here because you get offended by any english term that's even close explaining my point?!

My point is that changing the electoral collage to popular vote would never get past the senate so the only way to get it approved would be to flat out ignore the protests of those states and you might as well drop democracy totally if you start picking who gets to vote based on their political ideology.

the current US system is fucked and not working as intended, that much is clear to pretty much everyone here, but here's the thing you don't seem to get about the anti-hate speech laws here in europe is that they're not meant to make sure that conservatives don't get to vote, they're meant to maintain social stability. Any hate speech law that's ideologically motivated will create more problems then it solves, same with any voting system fixes.

I'd say the nazis could burn in hell but I'm not sure they'd allowed there and the filth they spew is illegal here for a reason (and probably will cause the True Finns (or what ever they're calling themselves) to commit political suicide). Still you must be careful that in your efforts to fight the nazis you don't become just as bad. Right wing, Left Wing is matters not once you go far enough either side they're just as bad. So the key and this might be hard to understand is not to go too far and make those who say "both sides are just as bad" an actual point rather then just meaningless propaganda.

EDIT:this was in response to Flagg.

What does political ideology have to do with my point other than the fact that I was pointing out that the political viewpoint of the entire country was clearly expressed by over 3 million votes yet the EC effectively erased those votes in favor of the opposing viewpoint? You can replace "liberals and conservatives" with "snorks and blarts" and I'd still be making the same argument.

If you need to switch to Finnish to adequately express your views then you're on the wrong message board. Frankly I'm finding your response just plain dishonest. If you are going to use a loaded term like "state's rights" you don't get to both cry ignorance and authority at the same time, which is exactly what you are doing.

Now you're just relying on a current political unlikelihood to argue over whether or not the EC or any other system other than the popular vote to decide this countries President should be used.

Maybe you think all of us are too dumb to see this, and if that's the case: Surprise! We're not.

[Lord Revan]

It's a complex issue anyway and not really on topic here so I have no problems with that.

As for the actions of the idiot in the White House, honestly if it wasn't for the fact Trump could encourage Russia to invade europe or Trump could start WWIII on a drunken bet I wouldn't even pay attention to what he is doing, all we can hope is he commits political suicide before he can do too much damage.

[The Romulan Republic]

Honestly, if publicly condoning White Supremacists doesn't do it, nothing will, short of Muller finding incontrovertible proof of a major felony.

[Lord Revan]

Honestly, if publicly condoning White Supremacists doesn't do it, nothing will, short of Muller finding incontrovertible proof of a major felony.

I suppose will see in the future, just because he's not kicked from office right this moment it doesn't mean he hasn't eroded the good will of the voters enough that his political career is effectively over.

For example recently the "perussuomalaiset" (Finns or True Finns in english IIRC) when an extremist and a racist (and that's not just my opinion he was convicted of spreading hate of minorities) was chosen as the party leader, to the surprice of anyone sane no other party in the finnish goverment agreeded to work with them and they effectively commited political suicide even though the party still exists, pretty much all polls predict they'd loose votes in next elections and even if they didn't no other party will work with them making them utterly ineffective for the foreseeble future.

to bring this back to Trump if his "star" as eroded suffiently in the eyes of voters he'll be burden to the GOP not an asset and I suspect they know this.

[Flagg]

It's a complex issue anyway and not really on topic here so I have no problems with that.

As for the actions of the idiot in the White House, honestly if it wasn't for the fact Trump could encourage Russia to invade europe or Trump could start WWIII on a drunken bet I wouldn't even pay attention to what he is doing, all we can hope is he commits political suicide before he can do too much damage.

His actions so far should have been political suicide. The fact that it hasn't been and that I can't confidently say that he won't serve a second term scare the shit out of me.

[Lord Revan]

It's a complex issue anyway and not really on topic here so I have no problems with that.

As for the actions of the idiot in the White House, honestly if it wasn't for the fact Trump could encourage Russia to invade europe or Trump could start WWIII on a drunken bet I wouldn't even pay attention to what he is doing, all we can hope is he commits political suicide before he can do too much damage.

His actions so far should have been political suicide. The fact that it hasn't been and that I can't confidently say that he won't serve a second term scare the shit out of me.

You and me both

There's a reason ancient greeks used "may you live in intresting times" as a curse, I'd wish times were less intresting, at least boring is safe.

Still there's little you can do about and even less what I can, so worrying about it too much isn't good for my health.

[The Romulan Republic]

Honestly, admitting he grabbed women "by the pussy" without their consent should have sunk him. The Muslim ban should have sunk him. Saying a judge was unfit because he had Mexican heritage should have sunk him. About a hundred different things should have sunk him, in a saner world.

[Thanas]

Arnold Schwarzenegger has a great speech here. link.

[ray245]

Honestly, admitting he grabbed women "by the pussy" without their consent should have sunk him. The Muslim ban should have sunk him. Saying a judge was unfit because he had Mexican heritage should have sunk him. About a hundred different things should have sunk him, in a saner world.

I don't know. Seem like the US society is suffering from a lot of pent up frustrations. There are quite a number of people that seemed to be very annoyed with the notion of political correctness.

Donald Trump is in power because people used the US election as some sort of venting platform, without really understanding how this can backfire on them.

[Flagg]

Honestly, admitting he grabbed women "by the pussy" without their consent should have sunk him. The Muslim ban should have sunk him. Saying a judge was unfit because he had Mexican heritage should have sunk him. About a hundred different things should have sunk him, in a saner world.

I don't know. Seem like the US society is suffering from a lot of pent up frustrations. There are quite a number of people that seemed to be very annoyed with the notion of political correctness.

Donald Trump is in power because people used the US election as some sort of venting platform, without really understanding how this can backfire on them.

Many of his voters voted for him because he stands for the preservation of white male supremecy.

[Flagg]

It's a complex issue anyway and not really on topic here so I have no problems with that.

As for the actions of the idiot in the White House, honestly if it wasn't for the fact Trump could encourage Russia to invade europe or Trump could start WWIII on a drunken bet I wouldn't even pay attention to what he is doing, all we can hope is he commits political suicide before he can do too much damage.

His actions so far should have been political suicide. The fact that it hasn't been and that I can't confidently say that he won't serve a second term scare the shit out of me.

You and me both

There's a reason ancient greeks used "may you live in intresting times" as a curse, I'd wish times were less intresting, at least boring is safe.

Still there's little you can do about and even less what I can, so worrying about it too much isn't good for my health.

There's a reason I don't watch the news. I get physically ill.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Bannon is out!
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show ... tage-right

On cell phone so hard to link the article text, but he is out. Really don't know this will change anything at this point, I doubt any of his supporters will stop supporting him over this.

[Lost Soal]

Bannon is out!
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show ... tage-right

On cell phone so hard to link the article text, but he is out. Really don't know this will change anything at this point, I doubt any of his supporters will stop supporting him over this.

Allegedly Brietbart is now pissed at Trump because of this.

[The Romulan Republic]

OH fuck yes, I'm so happy Bannon is out.

The question is, will Breitbart now turn on the Trump Administration?

Also, an article from one of Trump's first supporters, denouncing him and expressing regret for supporting him:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/opin ... et-it.html

Particularly telling:

It is now clear that we were deluding ourselves. Either Mr. Trump is genuinely sympathetic to the David Duke types, or he is so obtuse as to be utterly incapable of learning from his worst mistakes. Either way, he continues to prove his harshest critics right.

I mean, on the one hand... seriously? It took you this long to figure that out?

On the other hand, I really believe that Charlottsville could be a turning point- perhaps the turning point.

This is also part of why, in addition to my general moral stance against unnecessary killing and destruction, and against the use of violence to advance a political agenda, I feel that the people saying variations of "The only option is Left-wing militia violence" are wrong.

Right now, the country is united behind us, and in condemnation of Trump. His business council has been disbanded after several members resigned. His entire arts council (I'm surprised he even had one) resigned. A member of his religious advisory board has resigned. Republican Congressmen and military officers are rebuking his message. And today, crowning a day of good news, I found out that Congressman Steve Cohen, the ranking member of the House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution and Civil Justice, has announced that he will file articles of impeachment:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/democratic ... peachment/

This is why I feel that the people saying that the only recourse is militia violence on the Left are being premature, and counterproductive. Charlottsville is not turning out to be a victory for the Neo-Nazis. It is turning out to be a resounding defeat, which is uniting the country against them and may yet lead to the downfall of the Trump Administration.

Responding with violence of our own would muddy the issue, playing into Trump's attempt to equate Left-wing activists with white supremacists, and cost us support from some who right now are standing with us. I feel that those advocating the necessity of violence are not looking at what is actually happening in response to Charlottsville- they are responding based on (admittedly understandable) fear and anger, and in some cases latching onto Charlottsville as a pretext to do what they had already decided was "necessary".

And this is part of why I take such a strong position against violence- because while I do fully acknowledge that their are times when violence is necessary in self-defense, or even to depose a tyrannical regime, once you become open to the idea of violence as a legitimate tactic, a lot of people will quickly latch onto it as the only option, using "necessity" to justify things that... aren't. Because violence is more emotionally satisfying to angry, frightened, and frustrated people than the political process, and has the illusion of being quicker and simpler (it is, in fact, seldom a quick or simple solution, as the people of Syria, Afghanistan, and many other countries could doubtless attest).

[The Romulan Republic]

Tomorrow, I am going to contact my Congressman and urge him to support the articles of impeachment against Donald Trump.

I hope that all of us who are Americans will spare five or ten minutes of their time to do the same.

[Galvatron]

I applaud the sentiment, but I think the effort will be wasted because it's premature. There's no way the GOP will impeach Trump before Bob Mueller's investigation is finished. In fact, I think they're counting on it so they'll have an ironclad excuse to rid themselves of Twittler while minimizing backlash from the MAGA crowd.

Oh, they'll still lose some votes, but they'll be a lot safer from being primary'd if they can make a solid case for removing a traitor from office.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Wait, are people here actually believing he COULD be impeached? By a Republican house and Senate? I mean, however much they may hate what they helped get in an office, I can't see for one moment them doing anything about him.

[Galvatron]

Don't kid yourself. The GOP loathes Trump. The only reason they aren't in open revolt against him is because they don't want to alienate their shared base.

[Crazedwraith]

Personally, I think the idea that there;s anything less than 7 more years of Trump coming is optimistic. Is his support in the places that actually won him the election waning?

[Gaidin]

Personally, I think the idea that there;s anything less than 7 more years of Trump coming is optimistic. Is his support in the places that actually won him the election waning?

With the understanding that state polls are done far less frequently now, here's the latest I could find for Gallup.

[Flagg]

Personally, I think the idea that there;s anything less than 7 more years of Trump coming is optimistic. Is his support in the places that actually won him the election waning?

Base support is strong no doubt. I mean he's doing what they elected him to do. But could he win an election tomorrow? Probably. Americans are real dumb and all too often willing to give extreme fuckup shitheads like Trumpzi many more chances to fail. His idiocy is a net benefit because the "average voter" (moron) will eagerly buy into the "don't change horses in midstream" bullshit as if that's not what democracy is.

[Galvatron]

I'd say that depends on who his opponent is. A lot of the people who voted for him simply voted for not-Hillary.

If he gets impeached, Hillary doesn't inherit the office. The GOP gets Mike Pence for the next three years. Hell, the sooner Trump is out of there, the more they can advance their establishment agenda before losing Congress to the Democrats in 2018.

[TheFeniX]

I'd say that depends on who his opponent is. A lot of the people who voted for him simply voted for not-Hillary.

This. Also combined with "Holy shit, Hillary Goddamn Clinton might become president" also played a huge factor. She's such a polarizing figure and damn near unelectable outside New York, has very little charisma (at least compared to the likes of her husband or Obama), and is easily harangued by her own party (look at the zingers Obama was able to throw at her in the 2008 primaries). And even with all that, she still did well against Trump, winning the popular vote.

But, and it's hard to determine how much voter disenfranchisement played a roll, but she expected minorities to support her like they did Obama due to her lip service support of their causes and it bit her in the ass.

Really, I'll just cut myself off because her campaign was such a monumental trainwreck, it makes McCain/Palin almost not look like the joke it was (that everyone took seriously enough to let Obama beat them in a landslide).

If he gets impeached, Hillary doesn't inherit the office. The GOP gets Mike Pence for the next three years. Hell, the sooner Trump is out of there, the more they can advance their establishment agenda before losing Congress to the Democrats in 2018.

ALSO, this. Republicans may or may not be looking into maximum damage control. They could easily throw Trump under the bus like they tried to do with Bush when opinion soured. "Trump hijacked the GOP primary. He's not a true conservative, or he wouldn't have failed. He tricked us all with his ties to communism." No idea if they will bother, but Trump would be much easier to try and wash their hands of than someone like GW.

But Pence is an establishment assho.... Republican. He IS their guy. He is the hero they want(ed). So, if Trump continues to be dead weight, they may have no choice. They have accomplished (AFAIK) fucking not a god damn thing in 8 months. And Trump is on Twitter non-stop saying "jsad;lkfsalknvsv TRAITORS sldknslf FUCKING VOTE FOR MY SHIT YOU FUCKING COWARDS" and generally acting like a 12-year-old Counter-Strike player. They look like jackasses, lead by a fucking immature moron, to anyone not chugging conservative Koolaid. And voters are continuing to get angrier and angrier and if they can't take it out on Trump till 2020, they will take it out on SOMEONE in 2018.

That said, I still believe Democrats could run an empty suit up against Trump in 2020 and beat his ass. In 2016, I still believe HRC is the only Democrat that could have lost to Trump, provided the media didn't constantly downplay Trumps chances at winning. I'm praying for someone like Joaquin Castro. You get the redneck Texan AND Hispanic vote with a guy like that. Also, (and this seems important) he seems to have a good head on his shoulders. His comments about the HRC campaign were the mark of a man who understood tact while also saying "these people didn't know what the fuck they were doing" if you were listening hard enough. At least as far as I'm concerned.

Sidenote: I'm still kind of mad because if Republicans just fumble the fucking ball again, Democrats can just scoop it up for another easy win and not have to bother turning into an actual party that gives a fuck about their electorate outside a "hey, here's some gay marriage now that 50+1% of the country supports it, please fuck off" kind of way.

Guys like Castro (among others) will get pushed to the wayside unless, like Obama, they can find a way to push the old fucks out of the way. Because: Baby Boomers fucking suck (I think I've said before, I'm tired of taking shots from Boomers, so I never skip a chance to give what-for back at them, because I'm a petty asshole).

[The Romulan Republic]

Personally, I think the idea that there;s anything less than 7 more years of Trump coming is optimistic. Is his support in the places that actually won him the election waning?

Yes, at least according to some studies.

Maybe only by a little, but remember, he only "won" by a few tens of thousands of votes in a few key states. And that was against an opponent with the baggage and shear lack of personal charisma of Hillary Clinton.

If the Democrats find a half-way decent person to run against him, and the scandals continue to pile up (and they will, because Donald can't stop being Donald), the only plausible way he even comes close to winning is massive fraud/voter suppression. Which is undoubtably his plan.

Which means the key is getting high enough turnout to overcome that. Can the Democrats do that? It remains to be seen. My big fear is another bitter progressive vs. establishment primary even further dividing the Democratic Party (a division the Trumpers will do their best to egg on).

But yes, he has lost support from some people. He has a certain number of die-hard base supporters who will never leave him even if he kills a baby on live television, but they aren't enough to keep him in the Oval Office.

As to impeachment, I agree with those who think that its unlikely until either Mueller comes up with proof of a felony, or the Democrats regain the House (and preferably the Senate too).

That said, keeping the pressure up makes it more likely that they will act when one of those things happens. Not just Republicans but Democrats- the Democratic leadership's lack of spine is infamous, and the closer we get to 2020, the more I suspect that some of them will be tempted to just run out the clock and "let the voters decide" rather than go through an impeachment they might lose.

Both parties need to told that if they don't vote to impeach Trump, they will face primary challenges as a result.

[Flagg]

I'd say that depends on who his opponent is. A lot of the people who voted for him simply voted for not-Hillary.

If he gets impeached, Hillary doesn't inherit the office. The GOP gets Mike Pence for the next three years. Hell, the sooner Trump is out of there, the more they can advance their establishment agenda before losing Congress to the Democrats in 2018.

Yeah, but let's be honest, who voted because of Mike Pence? And he's tried to insulate himself but he's up to his eyeballs. Trumpzi's base will stay home or sabotage the primaries of any House Republican who votes to in any way condemn, let alone actually try to remove Herr Cheeto from office. After November 2018? Who can say?