Demolition Man- Utopian, Dystopian, or other?

[Patroklos]

My point is that maybe everyone is what we from our context consider happy now, but they were being set up to become something much different in short order.

They were and socialized to accept minorish dustopian behavior so they would be more likely to accept going off the deep end, while siultaneously being softened up to be unable to adequately resist if the ever felt like it.

We see this place at phase 1. There was definetly a phase 2 coming.

[TheFeniX]

I missed this, sorry.

Heck, note how when encountering an outside-context-problem like Phoenix, they immediately came up with a solution ("Let's defrost someone for whom he is in context,") which totally shocked Cocteau. He assumed that they were stupid because they were happy, but they came up with a creative solution that requires a willingness to recruit someone who does use violence, implemented their plan quickly, listened to Spartan, and used his talents well, pairing him with the officer with the best knowledge of his time.

That's the thing, they might be "sheep," but they are sheep capable of understanding when they need a "sheepdog." They aren't helpless, but they also know when they're outmatched. However, they also seem to be a bit wussy (duh). Rather than tackle a problem head-on, they dig up (their words) "a caveman" to handle the dirty work for them. Spartan seems happy enough to take down Simon because that guys is crazy evil, but he's not pleased with the whole idea.

On the 'no Earth shattering event,' there was apparently a megaquake and two worse-than-AIDS outbreaks, so things did get hairy in between. But yea, no outside help like the Vulcans, just a counteraction to bad events/building themselves up in response.

Yea, those sucked and it got piled on, but humans even in the 21st century have dealt with the same. We generally pull together in short sprints, but then just go back to being assholes. But "aliens" mean "we're not alone, and humanity has to band together" which was actually a big part of the (lame, but whatever) Bakula Star Trek: Humans first.

Now, maybe certain offenders get the Ice Box treatement and get brain-washed, but Spartan was a "dangerous criminal" and all he got was knitting. Nothing stopped him from bashing skulls after getting thawed even though the system can turn Simon Phoenix into... Wesley Snipes. They can teach you things and influence you with shit like "I MUST KNIT!," but they don't seem to be able to change who you are.

Here's a question I wondered about: Edgar Friendly is caught by the police. Cocteau either can't or won't get involved. What happens to Friendly? I kind of assumed the problem was that since Friendly couldn't be shamed into "acting right" and wouldn't just GTFO, they had no answer even to him getting caught. Like the "Happy Days" version of The Joker. So, Cocteau "HAD" to kill him. He is/was his own outside/context problem, as were his followers.

To a guy like Cocteau, having to resort to murder seemed to be a massive failure on his part.

I really need to watch this movie again though. I've seen it easily over a dozen times, but the last time had to be over a decade ago. Such a goddamn good movie.

[Khaat]

They had the technology still available, I imagine Cocteau's plan would have been to ice Friendly (push him into the future), and possibly step-up the reprogramming while he was on ice. Consider: Cocteau's programming of Phoenix was Edgar-Friendly-is-a-problem recent. I haven't watched this in a while, either, but I wonder if there wasn't a "baking/beat poetry" program dropped into Phoenix, before the "war machine" reprogramming was dropped in. Not that Phoenix needed to be upgraded to deal with Friendly (Cocteau's first mistake).

Apparently the "thinking" was that Spartan and others like him were only so destructive because they didn't know what to do with their spare time ("fill it with knitting!")

[Q99]

Here's my thoughts on that, a fair amount of which is theorycrafting how it works with a bit of speculation, but I think it holds together. They still have the cryoprison as an option, don't they? It seems likely that Friendly, well, just hasn't been caught with anything bad enough to sentence him there (it seems like it's mostly used for true hardened criminals from the old days). If they have a normal prison, which seems likely, the Scraps spend time then go back underground once they're free after BSing through therapy because, sure, they don't change their ways but flipside? Their crimes just aren't that bad. The worst Scraps crime we see is worth, what, maybe a few months by *today's* standard? Let alone by the standards of a non-corrupt therapy oriented place that's very good at talking people out of stuff like crimes of passions/boredom/lack of purpose (Honestly stuff like knitting/giving people creative marketable enjoyable skills *would* reduce crime in a lot of people, either by filling their time with something fun or giving them money), machismo, or ones driven by a desire to lash out due to specific issues, rather than a philosophical disagreement.

So to the Police, they're a regular annoyance they don't exactly get but... like, no one is hurt. There's maybe some wrestling and minor damage but an hour later everything's fixed anyway. The Scraps have guns they do not use. Not stopping the Scraps once and for all is not a giant worry of theirs. Cocteau can't convince the police to turn up the volume on them, and indeed, even trying to convince them to crackdown hard would seem wrong to the SAPD as we know it, wouldn't it? The judges wouldn't send him to cryo, the police won't beat him up or kill him, and suggesting it would send alarm bells even to the fairly trusting police chief and such.

So while the Police are merely baffled by their soft methods not working but since the problem itself is a minor one don't lose much sleep, Cocteau considers his existence a giant middle finger and a sign that society isn't perfect and we totally gotta go Brave New World up in here, major reforms to eliminate these problems, because these people still have free will and the police, while mostly what he wants, won't crack down on a 'real' threat they're too 'dumb' to see. Clearly, he needs higher levels of control.

[TheFeniX]

My point is that maybe everyone is what we from our context consider happy now, but they were being set up to become something much different in short order.

I see your point, but I also have to wonder if Cocteau's plan was doomed from the start. His populace, from all accounts, is happy. There's no "real" crime already. What even was his "phase 2?" "The beauty of an ant colony." I mean, he waxes poetic real well, but I can't recall his actual plan. Just more laws? No dancing?

But he's cock-blocked by some smelly foul-mouthed Morlocks who just steal food and rabble the rouse. Even HE doesn't understand the true context of Simon or murder. The reasoning of criminals. His plan is hilariously simple, which I am not complaining about, but it shows he's not some master-mind here. His "solutions" seem simple to me because what his people want is pretty simple.

They were and socialized to accept minorish dustopian behavior so they would be more likely to accept going off the deep end, while siultaneously being softened up to be unable to adequately resist if the ever felt like it.

True, and if he had succeeded, we would be looking at some version of Brave New World and/or 1984 and we could have that argument out. But as it stands, he had to unthaw the craziest motherfucker out there as the catalyst for his New World Order™ because no one else remotely fit the bill.

Let's face it: there's something going on. Criminals would run rampant in a town like San Angeles unless they had people able to take care of them or those criminals just did not exist. Cocteau could not have been the only catalyst for something like that. Those people had to WANT to change.

[NecronLord]

One can't help but wonder if one of the plagues wasn't some sort of bioweapon intended to cull aggressive tendencies in humans.

Shades of Serenity, there.

[TheFeniX]

One can't help but wonder if one of the plagues wasn't some sort of bioweapon intended to cull aggressive tendencies in humans.

Shades of Serenity, there.

In the same vein, but not for the same reasons: I read an article way back in the early days of the web that was titled something like "Demolition Man tells us society is great once you get rid of all the poor people." Poor people are more likely to commit crime and be violent. They are also most likely the largest group hit during a natural disaster and would hardest hit since they are more likely to practice unsafe sex.

I didn't agree with the whole thing, but I do see an allegory for "white flight" where San Angeles ended up with nothing but Upper Middle class Americans who walled themselves (somehow) off from 99% of undesirables and were able to create the 'Murrica they wanted. Basically, an allegory for "Gated Neighborhoods."

Now, Neutering Bioweapon still has some problems, there may be some natural tendencies toward violence, but environmental and social factors tend to play much larger roles (such as growing up exposed to lead or dealing with the stress of high density population areas). But Huxley is either a huge outlier here or an archetype for another type of person who can "make it" in San Angeles.

For all the conditioning of various forms, she's relishes fictional and real violence. And she takes to it at such a level, Spartan has to give us one of the funniest lines from the movie: "Huxley, look, this isn't the Wild West! The Wild West wasn't even the Wild West! Hurting people's not a good thing! Sometimes it is, " Mainly the "Sometimes it is" part because Stallone delivers it damn near perfectly.

She only hits a wall after she finally shoots and kills someone. And she gets over it real quick. So, these people aren't really neutered, they're just so fat and happy they can't look down and see their balls to remember they have them.

[Q99]

In the same vein, but not for the same reasons: I read an article way back in the early days of the web that was titled something like "Demolition Man tells us society is great once you get rid of all the poor people." Poor people are more likely to commit crime and be violent. They are also most likely the largest group hit during a natural disaster and would hardest hit since they are more likely to practice unsafe sex.

I didn't agree with the whole thing, but I do see an allegory for "white flight" where San Angeles ended up with nothing but Upper Middle class Americans who walled themselves (somehow) off from 99% of undesirables and were able to create the 'Murrica they wanted. Basically, an allegory for "Gated Neighborhoods."

More charitably, they dealt with the problem by having the poor not-be-poor.

She only hits a wall after she finally shoots and kills someone. And she gets over it real quick. So, these people aren't really neutered, they're just so fat and happy they can't look down and see their balls to remember they have them.

Heck, something else I'll not about them? A lot of the cops are really brave. They're willing to go up to the only murderer they've ever met and try and talk him down, and they're even pretty unsure whether that'll even work, but they try.

They lack skillset, not guts.

[TheFeniX]

More charitably, they dealt with the problem by having the poor not-be-poor.

True "act right and we'll make your life better" has a dystopia slant, but it is possibly the most kids gloves example out there.

Heck, something else I'll not about them? A lot of the cops are really brave. They're willing to go up to the only murderer they've ever met and try and talk him down, and they're even pretty unsure whether that'll even work, but they try.

They lack skillset, not guts.

I think that bravery, based on dialog, was more about ignorance than thinking they could handle someone like Simon. They know he's dangerous, but the concept of the kind of danger he represents is something they couldn't understand until they experienced it. They had numbers and training/computer assisted deescalation planning (which seems to have worked great in the past). Then Simon reacted in the manner the audience knew he would, but they had no idea was something a human was still capable of.

Which, as said, is weird because there ARE cops (even the Chief) who are old enough to remember the (real, which I believe this movie was made in context to) crime waves of the 80s and 90s.

[Lord Revan]

Something that IIRC wasn't directly answered the movie but isn't an intresting thing to consider is just how free is information in the San Angeles area.

If the citizens had only access to a carefully selected set of information that painted the 1990s and 1980s as this period where the area that is "now" San Angeles was this brutal warzone where if the daily death toll wasn't something akin to major WWI battle it was an atypically good day and cops were barely capable of stopping things from getting worse (if that's even possible).


Then it wouldn't be so surprising if the San Angeles cops even ones old enough to remember the era where Phoenix came from had forgotten how deal with someone like him since it had been shoved down their throats that they were never capable of that.

[TheFeniX]

Something that IIRC wasn't directly answered the movie but isn't an intresting thing to consider is just how free is information in the San Angeles area.

If the citizens had only access to a carefully selected set of information that painted the 1990s and 1980s as this period where the area that is "now" San Angeles was this brutal warzone where if the daily death toll wasn't something akin to major WWI battle it was an atypically good day and cops were barely capable of stopping things from getting worse (if that's even possible).

Then it wouldn't be so surprising if the San Angeles cops even ones old enough to remember the era where Phoenix came from had forgotten how deal with someone like him since it had been shoved down their throats that they were never capable of that.

Judging by the beginning, Simon Phoenix was able to wrest control of a chunk of real estate and run it as his little mini-kingdom. So, their version of the crime-waves of the 80s and early-90s actually WAS a warzone. Like the beginning of Predator 2: it's just never been that bad in reality. And in fact, anything in that vein (such as the North Hollywood Shootout) leads to police changing the way they do business. Because they know being outgunned is bad business, so they don't remain that way for long.

[Q99]

I think that bravery, based on dialog, was more about ignorance than thinking they could handle someone like Simon. They know he's dangerous, but the concept of the kind of danger he represents is something they couldn't understand until they experienced it. They had numbers and training/computer assisted deescalation planning (which seems to have worked great in the past). Then Simon reacted in the manner the audience knew he would, but they had no idea was something a human was still capable of.

They were really worried going in, and the confrontation just confirmed he was out of their league.

Which, as said, is weird because there ARE cops (even the Chief) who are old enough to remember the (real, which I believe this movie was made in context to) crime waves of the 80s and 90s.

Sure, but flipside, they'd be young enough that they were kids and certainly not active duty at that point. The helicopter pilot was retired. All experience is massively rusty. They could've called in old timers to consult but they went with Spartan instead.

[TheFeniX]

They were really worried going in, and the confrontation just confirmed he was out of their league.

I'll give you that one.

Sure, but flipside, they'd be young enough that they were kids and certainly not active duty at that point. The helicopter pilot was retired. All experience is massively rusty. They could've called in old timers to consult but they went with Spartan instead.

Is he retired? I recall he was the one who called out that Spartan was the one to catch Phoenix and he's there to meet Spartan after he's thawed. I think he was working the desk. I only recall him saying "they grounded me" which could mean a few things. You can find aging cops past standard retirement age in many rural districts (though in urban areas, they are more rare) today where "Law Enforcement" boils down to "writing a few tickets and breaking up high school parties." He could be semi-retired and kept around on desk duty because he doesn't want to retire.

And to be fair, Cobbs was only 59 in 1993.

Either way, hard to tell what age they were going for as Gunton (Police Chief) is only 10 years younger than Cobbs (Old Lamb). He should have a more solid head on his shoulders at the chances his officers have against a monster like Simon. Instead he seems as completely caught off-guard. But the ages are off because Bush was 38 when he portrayed a "snot nosed rookie pilot" but the actor looked very young.

[Lord Revan]

Something that IIRC wasn't directly answered the movie but isn't an intresting thing to consider is just how free is information in the San Angeles area.

If the citizens had only access to a carefully selected set of information that painted the 1990s and 1980s as this period where the area that is "now" San Angeles was this brutal warzone where if the daily death toll wasn't something akin to major WWI battle it was an atypically good day and cops were barely capable of stopping things from getting worse (if that's even possible).

Then it wouldn't be so surprising if the San Angeles cops even ones old enough to remember the era where Phoenix came from had forgotten how deal with someone like him since it had been shoved down their throats that they were never capable of that.

Judging by the beginning, Simon Phoenix was able to wrest control of a chunk of real estate and run it as his little mini-kingdom. So, their version of the crime-waves of the 80s and early-90s actually WAS a warzone. Like the beginning of Predator 2: it's just never been that bad in reality. And in fact, anything in that vein (such as the North Hollywood Shootout) leads to police changing the way they do business. Because they know being outgunned is bad business, so they don't remain that way for long.

Yeah, but I was more referring to what people a life time after the event would know/remember, after if you've been told a lie or half-truth is the absolute full truth for longer then most of your colleges have been alive you eventually start to belive it.

basically take fight/police raid from the start of the movie (the one where Phoenix was captured) and say that was an atypically good day time after time and also say that methods of that time were totally incapable of anything else then meekly holding back the time and it's not that odd that even cops that were alive during that time would unprepared when faced with someone like Simon Phoenix.

[Batman]

The police chase people who stay out past curfew and tell dirty jokes. If everything was hunky-dory they wouldn't need a curfew
Also, apparently collectibles from the 20th century are contraband

[Solauren]

I think it was working towards being a Utopia, but the process was hijacked.

Here is my thinking

A movement towards a better society probably started with the disease outbreaks that where mentioned. Sex education probably picked up, but existing defenses (i.e condoms) were not working. So a movement towards celebicy occurred. The most affected would be younger peopl, with sex being a left over from older generations.

This might have trigger other backlashes as well. You'll recall Huxley mentioned a connection between violence and sex.
We all know that Violence is, generally speaking, bad. So, If Sex is now bad, and violence and sex are connected, then violence must be worse then we thought! Time to start banning sex and violence, as they are bad for you.

That's the movement towards Utopia.

However, the hijacking started the second someone went "Well, if banning stuff that is bad for a person is good, then we need to ban....."

You get the idea.

Now, of course, during any movement like that, there are going to be people going 'hey, wait a minute'. Unable to change anything, and not able to really fight back, this lead to them moving to the ruins below San Angeles and becoming 'scraps'.

[Batman]

Having Batman or Joker figurines is illegal. As are caffeine, tobacco, meat, contact sports, alcohol but tell me again how this isn't a dystopia

[Batman]

Abortion/pregnancy without a license? Illegal

[Batman]

The only way to legally even 'see' a gun is going to a museum

[Q99]

Having Batman or Joker figurines is illegal. As are caffeine, tobacco, meat, contact sports, alcohol but tell me again how this isn't a dystopia

Like, those are annoying restrictions to be sure, but that still leaves a heck of a lot of stuff, people have self-determination, education, perform creative tasks, associate freely, etc..

None of the missing stuff is really a cornerstone of the human experience, you know? Like, I imagine we're going to see a lot of 'Spartan reforms' after the events of the movie, but as long as it didn't get worse it honestly seems like a really nice place to live.

[Elheru Aran]

Prison in Sweden is pretty nice. You get clothes, shoes, a warm place to sleep, three squares a day, you get a lot of freedoms, you can play DnD if you want, the guards might even stop and play it with you.

It's still a prison.

Same deal here. While it may be a 'nice place to live', the fact is that they're extremely close to restricting too many freedoms, and it appears that quite a bit of these restrictions are involuntary and the only reason people don't mind is because they aren't particularly aware.

[Lord Revan]

Prison in Sweden is pretty nice. You get clothes, shoes, a warm place to sleep, three squares a day, you get a lot of freedoms, you can play DnD if you want, the guards might even stop and play it with you.

It's still a prison.

Same deal here. While it may be a 'nice place to live', the fact is that they're extremely close to restricting too many freedoms, and it appears that quite a bit of these restrictions are involuntary and the only reason people don't mind is because they aren't particularly aware.

Indeed the gilded cage is still a cage just a really fancy looking one, in fact the term "gilded cage" typically refers to something like the Demolition Man San Angeles. It's an insidious kind of dystopia that might seem like an utopia at first glance, but in fact is just a gilded cage where the bars aren't obvious at first glance.

[Q99]

Prison in Sweden is pretty nice. You get clothes, shoes, a warm place to sleep, three squares a day, you get a lot of freedoms, you can play DnD if you want, the guards might even stop and play it with you.

It's still a prison.

Same deal here. While it may be a 'nice place to live', the fact is that they're extremely close to restricting too many freedoms, and it appears that quite a bit of these restrictions are involuntary and the only reason people don't mind is because they aren't particularly aware.

But it really isn't a prison/cage. Like, the boss wants it to be one, but the fact it's not controlled as he likes is one of his big objections.

We have banned substances and lists of banned activities right now- they have more, but self-determination is not on the restricted list. Their lives are not decided for them, they have choice and initiative to exercise it, and this isn't done with drugs, brainwashing, or even threat of force.

Prisons in Sweden aren't nice because they're prisons, the two are separate things that can be applied independently.


That's sorta my point- it's not a gilded cage with pretty bars, it's just a nice place that does have barriers around, but the doors are open. Resembling other gilded cage dystopias in appearance doesn't make it one in substance.

[TheFeniX]

I have to lean toward Q99 here. This is more like the prison in Support Your Local Sheriff: a while line painted on the floor instead of bars, except very little seems to happen if you do cross it and you walked in voluntarily in the first place. And you made the sheriff build the prison and you love him for it.

And the Sheriff has zero succession plan. So, he eats it and the prison collapses around you.

It's like the best and worst Dystopia at the same time. It lacks any of the rigorous controls of Brave New World or 1984 and the people seem to love it without any kind of mind altering substances or nefarious deeds. And the enforcers (Police) are grouped with the sheep. Even Logan's Run had those... Murder Patrol guys. San Angeles has Rob Schnider.

Aside from "Phase 2," these people were involved near 100% in the community that was created. Cocteau was less an evil Mr. Rogers and more an Evil George Washington, Sam Houston, or FDR figure: these people have the capacity to hack it on their own, but they'd follow him into Oblivion.

I'm not saying it's not a dystopia, but it's not exactly one either even if it has markers of it.

[The Romulan Republic]

As I said before, it reminds me a lot of the straw man version of the United Federation of Planets (I phrase it that way because I personally feel that portrayals of the Federation as a sterilized politically correct communist dystopia are exaggerated fan-bashing).