Demolition Man- Utopian, Dystopian, or other?

[Q99]

Yea, not far from it. Or... maybe 'Flanderized' would be a good descriptor? A flanderized Federation.

[FaxModem1]

Agreed, with an actual oppressed underclass who are screaming for food and more freedom, unlike the UFP, wherein freedom of expression, due process, speech, etc. are guaranteed under their Articles of Federation.

I have to bring it up again, but no government in which people are rioting because they're starving is a utopia.

[Batman]

But but but they're only starving because they refuse to play by the rules...which are restrictive as fuck

[Q99]

True, with the the note that even as rebel elements go, they're pretty nice- the Scraps have guns but don't kill. They do food raids but don't look malnurished, and the police don't beat, kill, or mindwash them- they're people who opted out and if they left entirely and lived somewhere else everyone would be fine with it. The scraps do disqualify them as a Utopia but their very existence I think also disqualifies them as a dystopia.

[FaxModem1]

True, with the the note that even as rebel elements go, they're pretty nice- the Scraps have guns but don't kill. They do food raids but don't look malnurished, and the police don't beat, kill, or mindwash them- they're people who opted out and if they left entirely and lived somewhere else everyone would be fine with it. The scraps do disqualify them as a Utopia but their very existence I think also disqualifies them as a dystopia.

Except for the leader of the 'utopian society' plotting to kill off the Scraps, and doing what he can to kill off those who aren't part of his perfect world.

[FaxModem1]

I just had a thought, Cocteau is rather like Parliament from Serenity. Wanting a clean, perfect world, but doesn't want to get his hands dirty. I imagine he would be rather happy if he had someone like the Operative on his payroll.



As long as he didn't have to pull the trigger himself, and no one found out about it, he would be happy, as he could move on to a better phase.

Actually, there's a good comparison. Cocteau's San Angeles is a lot like the Alliance, just played for comedy instead of drama.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, that works pretty well.

Right down to the neglected, impoverished fringe (the border planets vs. the sewer dwellers) and the government making crazy mentally-programmed assassins.

[Lord Revan]

At least both have the obesession of creating "perfect" societies without thinking of the cost or if such a thing is even possible and thus end destroying more then they create even if their intentions are good, the old saying of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" might apply here. At least Cocteu seemed to have good if naive intentions and it was strongly implied that so did Alliance Parliament when they used the chemical that created the reavers on Miranda (the planet that is not a person with that name), though if both cases their blindness to the (potential) cost their actions or if they should even be doing this lead to their actions backfiring horribly.

[TheFeniX]

Except for the leader of the 'utopian society' plotting to kill off the Scraps, and doing what he can to kill off those who aren't part of his perfect world.

From what I recall, Cocteau believed that if Friendly died, the rest would either fuck off or fall back in line. The man was obsessed with Edgar Friendly, he seemed mostly unconcerned about the rest. Possibly due to the same position Cocteau was in: both being the linchpin of the operation that falls apart near instantly the second they are removed.

Though with WRT Edgar: we don't know if him dieing would lead to a total breakdown in his "system" like with what happened with Cocteau.

[Q99]

Except for the leader of the 'utopian society' plotting to kill off the Scraps, and doing what he can to kill off those who aren't part of his perfect world.

Sure, but this is not normal, it's an action intended to change it away from where it is. Cocteau intends to break it away from it's current situation and make a society that, by our standards, is way more dystopian than what we see.

At least both have the obesession of creating "perfect" societies without thinking of the cost or if such a thing is even possible and thus end destroying more then they create even if their intentions are good, the old saying of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" might apply here. At least Cocteu seemed to have good if naive intentions and it was strongly implied that so did Alliance Parliament when they used the chemical that created the reavers on Miranda (the planet that is not a person with that name), though if both cases their blindness to the (potential) cost their actions or if they should even be doing this lead to their actions backfiring horribly.

Cocteau did pretty darn well until the movie- it's like, he really did make an incredibly safe place where most people were happy and even the discontent elements were minor. But those elements became an obsession for him and he risked his actually pretty great society in order to reach 'perfect'.

Icarus lesson, I'd say.

[The Romulan Republic]

Except for the leader of the 'utopian society' plotting to kill off the Scraps, and doing what he can to kill off those who aren't part of his perfect world.

From what I recall, Cocteau believed that if Friendly died, the rest would either fuck off or fall back in line. The man was obsessed with Edgar Friendly, he seemed mostly unconcerned about the rest. Possibly due to the same position Cocteau was in: both being the linchpin of the operation that falls apart near instantly the second they are removed.

Though with WRT Edgar: we don't know if him dieing would lead to a total breakdown in his "system" like with what happened with Cocteau.

Since Cocteau's movement was based on unthinking obedience to his worldview by people who had little concept of adversity, much less how to function in the face of it, while Edgar's movement was based on a rejection of authority to an extent, by people who were used to getting by in difficult circumstances, I imagine Edgar's would have been more resilient in the face of a decapitation strike, most likely.

Of course, its also possible that if Cocteau had simply died without a heavily armed lunatic around to cause it and then exploit it, one of his chief subordinates would have simply stepped up to continue following his teachings in his place. Its hard to imagine that Cocteau was so short-sighted that he had no succession procedure in place.

[Lord Revan]

Its hard to imagine that Cocteau was so short-sighted that he had no succession procedure in place.

actually it's not really that hard to image that a common problem with perfection obsessed control freaks is that they won't satisfied with "good enough" everything must be absolutely flawless. Cocteau is so certain that everything is under his personal control that he belives that he has all the time in the world to find a successor that's absolutely perfect, so he won't settle for a one that's "good enough".

Since the idea that he would die due circumstates out of his control won't enter his mind, because the idea that there would things truly out of his control is utterly unimagineble to him. The key phrase here being "truly out of control", the followers of Edgar Friendly were mostly contained sure they were black mark Cocteau wanted to be removed but they weren't rampaging about, just causing the occational bother and thus in essence still under control just not as tight of a control as Cocteau wanted.

[TheFeniX]

Since Cocteau's movement was based on unthinking obedience to his worldview by people who had little concept of adversity, much less how to function in the face of it, while Edgar's movement was based on a rejection of authority to an extent, by people who were used to getting by in difficult circumstances, I imagine Edgar's would have been more resilient in the face of a decapitation strike, most likely.

True, Friendly being the strawman Libertarian fits this.

Of course, its also possible that if Cocteau had simply died without a heavily armed lunatic around to cause it and then exploit it, one of his chief subordinates would have simply stepped up to continue following his teachings in his place. Its hard to imagine that Cocteau was so short-sighted that he had no succession procedure in place.

Revan beat me to this. I don't think it's so much short-sightedness as, and I'll go into, Cocteau (while being capable of murder) is just as indoctrinated as his own people. He seems to sort of understand what Phoenix is and is capable of, but it's just a concept to him. Spartan straight up tells him he has no idea what he's dealing with and it's not just one of "those lines you hear in movies." He's 100% correct.

Since the idea that he would die due circumstates out of his control won't enter his mind, because the idea that there would things truly out of his control is utterly unimagineble to him. The key phrase here being "truly out of control", the followers of Edgar Friendly were mostly contained sure they were black mark Cocteau wanted to be removed but they weren't rampaging about, just causing the occational bother and thus in essence still under control just not as tight of a control as Cocteau wanted.

He is completely shocked Jesse Ventura (right? That was the goon?) could and did gun him down. It's one of the biggest plotholes in the movie as Cocteau (I assume) believes Simon's inability to kill him means he couldn't have someone else do it or maybe (and this COULD possibly make sense) he's so wrapped up in his Joy Joy world he forgot that Simon is capable of lying and believed the "not as bad as him" guys to be released were "San Angeles style" criminals not "murder the ever-loving shit out of you" criminals.

He's basically bushwacked by his own philosophy because, as said, he can barely understand the concept of the people he's dealing with. Namely, he drank his own koolaid even after determining that Friendly had to die. And it's not that far out there since his plan was to basically release a rabid and starving Grizzly Bear into his house to kill one cockroach.

[amigocabal]

I do wish to point out that prior to the events of the film, the underclass were forced to robbing restaurants(when they weren't making rat burgers) in order to survive, and their worst crime? Deploying graffiti on signs that was removed by machines a couple seconds later.

The question is why these people aren't just moving out of San Angeles, unless they're just too poor to do so? Or does Cocteau somehow control the borders? We really don't get a sense of what the world is outside Southern California.

I'd say mildly Dystopian.

I am guessing if they relocated to say, Las Vegas or San Francisco or New York, they would still be poor and would still have to eat rat-burgers and rob restaurants. And, for all, we know, law enforcement in those places is much harsher than in San Angeles.

I do wonder what the boundaries of San Angeles are, as no map was ever seen on-screen. I do know that the Los Angeles area is surrounded by mountains, forming a natural geographic barrier. I would guess that California's Peninsular and Transverse Ranges would form the inland boundaries, and there would be border crossings art Newhall Pass and Santa Ana Canyon and Kellogg Hill.

This would also imply that cities adjacent to the border (Pomona, Corona, Santa Clarita, Tijuana, etc.) would cater to San Angelenos who want to eat some red meat.

[Korto]

Dystopian, for the reasons given--too controlled, too mothering. The people there seemed to have infantalised in a way by their awe for Cocteau. I feel like the big thing about the fines issued may have had nothing to do with the money, but the guilt from being reproached directly by their benevolent father/god. And the surveilance they were under, where everything they say is being monitored! Fuck that. I hate CCTVs.

I feel that mistake Cocteau made allowing Pheonix to bring out others and getting himself shot was believable. It was hubris. He was the father in control of his children, all moved according to his will (why he hated Friendly). In his mind, he was the only one who thought up plans and ideas, and everyone else just did what he told them (he was disturbed that the cops acted on their own intiative to get Spartan, but not enough to jog him out of this mindset). He had already considered Phoenix trying to act against him and put in a mind-block against it. Pheonix was controlled, a child, and would do what he was told.

The world outside the city is a funny subject, because in the movie it doesn't really exist. It never comes up. It doesn't exist.

Bit off subject, but did anyone else find Pheonix to be the best part of the movie? Stallone was just Generic Stallone Character #3, but Snipes was bloody brilliant.

[FaxModem1]

I do wish to point out that prior to the events of the film, the underclass were forced to robbing restaurants(when they weren't making rat burgers) in order to survive, and their worst crime? Deploying graffiti on signs that was removed by machines a couple seconds later.

The question is why these people aren't just moving out of San Angeles, unless they're just too poor to do so? Or does Cocteau somehow control the borders? We really don't get a sense of what the world is outside Southern California.

I'd say mildly Dystopian.

I am guessing if they relocated to say, Las Vegas or San Francisco or New York, they would still be poor and would still have to eat rat-burgers and rob restaurants. And, for all, we know, law enforcement in those places is much harsher than in San Angeles.

I do wonder what the boundaries of San Angeles are, as no map was ever seen on-screen. I do know that the Los Angeles area is surrounded by mountains, forming a natural geographic barrier. I would guess that California's Peninsular and Transverse Ranges would form the inland boundaries, and there would be border crossings art Newhall Pass and Santa Ana Canyon and Kellogg Hill.

This would also imply that cities adjacent to the border (Pomona, Corona, Santa Clarita, Tijuana, etc.) would cater to San Angelenos who want to eat some red meat.

I rewatched the film thanks to this thread. Spartan asks Friendly why he doesn't just lead these people out of the San Angeles. Friendly makes no mention of it being worse outside, only that he's no leader and shouldn't be doing so. Later in the film, he does clearly lead the Scraps out of the sewers, but by that time Cocteau is dead so there's a power vacuum in the city.

It's also worth noting that Huxley, at the start of the film, is showing initiative by calling the Cryoprison to make sure everything is okay. While the warden is okay with this, even amused by it, her superior chews her out for even daring to suspect something could be wrong, threatening to write her up for it, because it questions the system. Cops thinking for themselves is clearly something discouraged. Another point for dystopia.

It's already been pointed out that a lot of simple pleasures like sex, meat, and alcohol are illegal, but what about art? You might point to Lenina Huxley's 20th century cop pop culture collection, but it's noted as contraband. Friendly notes that he likes to read, something discouraged in Cocteau's society. The music they listen to are only jingles, even works from before 1930 are too controversial for Cocteau. Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Souza, etc. are too free for Cocteau. Better to listen to the theme from the Love Boat or the jingle from Green Giant if you want to listen to music.

On the plus side, history is still accessible, at least for cops, due to Huxley having access to the President Schwarzenegger library.

[The Romulan Republic]

But I bet you anything that history is censored. Even if the raw facts are reported, it would fit with the world as we see it for them to be presented in such a way as to conform to Cocteau's ideology. Maybe even play up how bad everything was before, to remind people why it was right to give up virtually every pleasure and form of intellectual stimulation in life.

[Lost Soal]

I might have missed someone bringing this up but the police are fined for swearing, the general public gets arrested if they swear twice.

[Patroklos]

Since Cocteau's movement was based on unthinking obedience to his worldview by people who had little concept of adversity, much less how to function in the face of it, while Edgar's movement was based on a rejection of authority to an extent, by people who were used to getting by in difficult circumstances, I imagine Edgar's would have been more resilient in the face of a decapitation strike, most likely.

True, Friendly being the strawman Libertarian fits this.

Of course, its also possible that if Cocteau had simply died without a heavily armed lunatic around to cause it and then exploit it, one of his chief subordinates would have simply stepped up to continue following his teachings in his place. Its hard to imagine that Cocteau was so short-sighted that he had no succession procedure in place.

Revan beat me to this. I don't think it's so much short-sightedness as, and I'll go into, Cocteau (while being capable of murder) is just as indoctrinated as his own people. He seems to sort of understand what Phoenix is and is capable of, but it's just a concept to him. Spartan straight up tells him he has no idea what he's dealing with and it's not just one of "those lines you hear in movies." He's 100% correct.

Since the idea that he would die due circumstates out of his control won't enter his mind, because the idea that there would things truly out of his control is utterly unimagineble to him. The key phrase here being "truly out of control", the followers of Edgar Friendly were mostly contained sure they were black mark Cocteau wanted to be removed but they weren't rampaging about, just causing the occational bother and thus in essence still under control just not as tight of a control as Cocteau wanted.

He is completely shocked Jesse Ventura (right? That was the goon?) could and did gun him down. It's one of the biggest plotholes in the movie as Cocteau (I assume) believes Simon's inability to kill him means he couldn't have someone else do it or maybe (and this COULD possibly make sense) he's so wrapped up in his Joy Joy world he forgot that Simon is capable of lying and believed the "not as bad as him" guys to be released were "San Angeles style" criminals not "murder the ever-loving shit out of you" criminals.

He's basically bushwacked by his own philosophy because, as said, he can barely understand the concept of the people he's dealing with. Namely, he drank his own koolaid even after determining that Friendly had to die. And it's not that far out there since his plan was to basically release a rabid and starving Grizzly Bear into his house to kill one cockroach.

It seemed clear that the block on Simon was not as basic as mom not being able to even think about shooting Cocteau as we see him level his weapon at him multiple times and curse because he couldn't pull the trigger. The block was somewhere between the thought and the action. So it makes sense he could tell someone else to do so.

The flaw from Cocteau was that he let Simon pick his own accomplices, and we have to assume the "don't kill Cocteau" rule was not a normal conditioning. Though you would think that would be normal conditioning for all criminals only covering not killing anyone and Simon had his relaxed rather than getting a special conditioning. But sine Stallone doen't have it and as far as we know he got the standard conditioning that was unaltered, this is not the case.

[amigocabal]

The world outside the city is a funny subject, because in the movie it doesn't really exist. It never comes up. It doesn't exist.

.

The world outsude the city could have been explored in sequels. (Demolition Man did well at the box office.

But I bet you anything that history is censored. Even if the raw facts are reported, it would fit with the world as we see it for them to be presented in such a way as to conform to Cocteau's ideology. Maybe even play up how bad everything was before, to remind people why it was right to give up virtually every pleasure and form of intellectual stimulation in life.

The Internet is likely censored in San Angeles, and most people from there would not drive all the way to Corona or Pomona or Santa Clarita just for uncensored Internet.

The music they listen to are only jingles, even works from before 1930 are too controversial for Cocteau. Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Souza, etc. are too free for Cocteau. Better to listen to the theme from the Love Boat or the jingle from Green Giant if you want to listen to music

It is possible that comnercial jingles are an early 2030's fad in North America.

He's basically bushwacked by his own philosophy because, as said, he can barely understand the concept of the people he's dealing with. Namely, he drank his own koolaid even after determining that Friendly had to die. And it's not that far out there since his plan was to basically release a rabid and starving Grizzly Bear into his house to kill one cockroach.

People tend to think of the here and now as the way things are normally. Cocteau certainly lived through the bad times, and being a wealthy, poltically-connected man, he had surely traveled to other cities ib the U.S., not to mention other countries, where things are not as soft as San Angeles.

But these other places and other times are not as real to him as San Angeles circa A.D. 2032.

( Of course, there is a reason he chose to thaw Simon Phoenix instead of using his political connections to hire a hit man from Vegas or Frisco or Nyc, let alone other countries like Brazil or Croatia. A hit man from the present likely has connections to other criminals, while Phoenix had no connections to anyone unthawed.)

[TheFeniX]

I might have missed someone bringing this up but the police are fined for swearing, the general public gets arrested if they swear twice.

You can be arrested for swearing one time in public right now. Until the "cussing Canoeist," I don't think anyone bothered to challenge an obvious 1st amendment violation. The DM-verse seems like humanity, or at least that in San Angeles, backtracked so hard from the violence of the past any violence, even verbal, is looked down upon and punished to protect polite society.

The real world isn't immune to shit like that. People can and do demand the government "DO SOMETHING" in response to bad situations. The government can go overboard here. This is normally really bad, but at least in the DM-verse people seem pretty happy with the results.

It leans on dystopia more that some people have to go underground and "starve," but the guy Spartan fights and who drops the food was almost built like a line-backer. I know that was part of the joke: the stereotypical tough-guy goon says "please!" when assaulted. But these people look dirty, not dieing. Even they don't really want to be "criminals," they just want a little more freedom than they have up top.

But I bet you anything that history is censored. Even if the raw facts are reported, it would fit with the world as we see it for them to be presented in such a way as to conform to Cocteau's ideology. Maybe even play up how bad everything was before, to remind people why it was right to give up virtually every pleasure and form of intellectual stimulation in life.

Possibly, but the opening scene shows that the crime waves of the past could nearly be labelled a war zone. Spartan blows up a shopping mall (I think) to rescue the "Fuck you, lady" girl. Simon kidnaps and murders a (literal) busload of people for driving into the wrong neighborhood. This is some "call in the National Guard" bullshit.

But Cocteau can't even be bothered to censor evidence that would (maybe) destroy him as Huxley (who should have been on multiple watch lists in a 1984-type environment) can just search Simon's file after a quick override. Once again, Cocteau seems to underestimate his own people. Spartan sometimes does his best work when he just reminds people "Hey, you can do this." And they're like "Why didn't I think of that?" This is like Pleasentville: these people don't know what they're capable of until someone says "You know you're a human being, right?"

The flaw from Cocteau was that he let Simon pick his own accomplices, and we have to assume the "don't kill Cocteau" rule was not a normal conditioning. Though you would think that would be normal conditioning for all criminals only covering not killing anyone and Simon had his relaxed rather than getting a special conditioning. But sine Stallone doen't have it and as far as we know he got the standard conditioning that was unaltered, this is not the case.

It's a pretty big plothole, but I guess it shows Cocteau wants to "make people act right" not actually force them to do it.

Huxley is an attractive woman (and then some). She's already shown she bucks authority as much as someone like her could. She never kissed another person on a dare when she was younger? None of her friends/classmates did so and told her how awesome it was? Kids do dumb shit, it's what they do. Hell, everyone does dumb shit.

So what's the deal? Mental conditioning? Why does one kiss from Spartan break her out of it? These people are like.... kids going through puberty or some shit and it's like "hey, touching my genitals feels REALLY good. AMAZING."

People tend to think of the here and now as the way things are normally. Cocteau certainly lived through the bad times, and being a wealthy, poltically-connected man, he had surely traveled to other cities ib the U.S., not to mention other countries, where things are not as soft as San Angeles.

I've lived a pretty non-violent life but I can easily understand how dangerous someone like Charles Manson is and wouldn't risk being alone with him in a room, conditioning or no conditioning, even if I was armed.

Out of all the bullshit violence in the past, (I believe) Simon was described as the worst of the worst. I wouldn't want to be in the same country as him. This is not a hard concept for someone to understand.

[FaxModem1]

I might have missed someone bringing this up but the police are fined for swearing, the general public gets arrested if they swear twice.

You can be arrested for swearing one time in public right now. Until the "cussing Canoeist," I don't think anyone bothered to challenge an obvious 1st amendment violation. The DM-verse seems like humanity, or at least that in San Angeles, backtracked so hard from the violence of the past any violence, even verbal, is looked down upon and punished to protect polite society.

The real world isn't immune to shit like that. People can and do demand the government "DO SOMETHING" in response to bad situations. The government can go overboard here. This is normally really bad, but at least in the DM-verse people seem pretty happy with the results.

It leans on dystopia more that some people have to go underground and "starve," but the guy Spartan fights and who drops the food was almost built like a line-backer. I know that was part of the joke: the stereotypical tough-guy goon says "please!" when assaulted. But these people look dirty, not dieing. Even they don't really want to be "criminals," they just want a little more freedom than they have up top.

Or maybe they're new recruits like Alfredo Garcia, who had a few hours to talk with Friendly, and realized just what kind of Barney the Dinosaur nightmare they were living in, and decided to join up? If you look at the non-tough guys down below that aren't part of Friendly's little circle, they're all much skinnier and don't look like linebackers. Maybe Edgar ensures his tough guys get enough food to keep themselves big so that they can take care of the starving children and other members of their families down below?

[amigocabal]

I might have missed someone bringing this up but the police are fined for swearing, the general public gets arrested if they swear twice.

You can be arrested for swearing one time in public right now. Until the "cussing Canoeist," I don't think anyone bothered to challenge an obvious 1st amendment violation. The DM-verse seems like humanity, or at least that in San Angeles, backtracked so hard from the violence of the past any violence, even verbal, is looked down upon and punished to protect polite society.

The real world isn't immune to shit like that. People can and do demand the government "DO SOMETHING" in response to bad situations. The government can go overboard here. This is normally really bad, but at least in the DM-verse people seem pretty happy with the results.

It leans on dystopia more that some people have to go underground and "starve," but the guy Spartan fights and who drops the food was almost built like a line-backer. I know that was part of the joke: the stereotypical tough-guy goon says "please!" when assaulted. But these people look dirty, not dieing. Even they don't really want to be "criminals," they just want a little more freedom than they have up top.

Or maybe they're new recruits like Alfredo Garcia, who had a few hours to talk with Friendly, and realized just what kind of Barney the Dinosaur nightmare they were living in, and decided to join up? If you look at the non-tough guys down below that aren't part of Friendly's little circle, they're all much skinnier and don't look like linebackers. Maybe Edgar ensures his tough guys get enough food to keep themselves big so that they can take care of the starving children and other members of their families down below?

The problem is, if you are a midedle-class dude who meets Friendly and agrees with him that San Angeles is a "Barney the Dinosaur nightmare", why move with him into the sewers instead of moving elsewhere?

It makes sense for someone poor to join up with Friendly, but not some middle-class person who could probably move to places like Pomona or Corona or San Bernardino or Bakersfield or even Las Vegas. Those places have to be better than the San Angeles underground.

[TheFeniX]

Or maybe they're new recruits like Alfredo Garcia, who had a few hours to talk with Friendly, and realized just what kind of Barney the Dinosaur nightmare they were living in, and decided to join up? If you look at the non-tough guys down below that aren't part of Friendly's little circle, they're all much skinnier and don't look like linebackers. Maybe Edgar ensures his tough guys get enough food to keep themselves big so that they can take care of the starving children and other members of their families down below?

Does Edgar even control the food? The Senorita selling rat burgers is.... well, selling rat burgers. And she takes payment via an expensive watch. So, she either really needs to know the time, so it's worth trading valuable food for it, or she is capable of trading the watch in some kind of barter system, which means they have to have some kind of system like this worked out with the people up top as the watch can't be THAT valuable in the sewers.

And being dirty and skinny is a bit different from starving. Besides, the way Hollywood/TV portrays it, this is how everyone in LA looks:


The whole thing is just understandably weird (because it's an action comedy and not really meant to be picked apart). They are scared of Spartan at first and Huxley and Garcia are intimidated by them. But the vendor near immediately warms up to Spartan (a uniformed police officer) when he's nice to her for 5 seconds. Edgar bursts into the scene and him and his guys are apprehensive, but they aren't immediately hostile. Edgar even pretty much takes Spartan at his word and even worst case, he'd just have them dumped up top if he didn't. No beating them for information about Cocteau's plan: you won't help, get lost.

It's basically two competing faction that don't know anything about moderation, which Spartan ends up being a kind of catalyst for change. However, they sill don't seem too big on violence for the sake of violence, either side: after all the chaos Simon caused, the Morlocs didn't come to the surface to take over or start a fight. They didn't learn "violence is awesome" when Simon shows them it gets results. They came to help. And even the cops don't seem to particularly concerned with them once they realize (and believe almost immediately) that Edgar isn't there to start a fight.

San Angeles has a big dystopia bent, but I still get the impression the PEOPLE (aside from Cocteau) don't have much of a violent streak in them. When pushed, they are capable of fighting back. But they aren't vindictive. They don't go looking to cause violence, even for their cause. I think Cocteau helped get them here, but I also believe that just had such a shift in mentality after the violence of the 90s, Cocteau didn't actually have to DO much in this regard but put a voice and a face behind the movement.

[Lost Soal]

Edgar shows himself to be winging it with no real plan. He accepted the notion of Spartan being able to fight well enough, but when he confronts them in the sewer all brash and cocky he is completely thrown by the simple act of Spartan swearing and calling Cocteau an asshole. He wasn't prepared to deal with something outside of his expectations, much like the regular citizens.