So How Do You Kill A Sun Crusher?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-26 08:41pm

Fine Bean, speculation. I'm tired of arguing this point with you, but as far as I'm concered in a galaxy that big, I'm sure it exsists somewhere. So for the sake of argument, I'm gonna use 'em.

Mr Bean wrote: Bad Logic, Big does not always equal Slow and Bulky and Small does not equal quick and light the fact remains if a BIG tractor can be beaten by a Fighter WTF use is a medium one?

Your right it doesn't, but if we look at everything else in SW, this is the case. Anyways, the bigger it is, the more that needs to be moved by a single motor/generator. A similar motor/generator on a smaller structure will move it quicker. In fact, depending on size, even a significantly smaller motor/generator will move it faster.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what your talking about when you say a fighter can escape a big tractor. As for medium ones, they haul more around then little ones can. But are more efficeient for at their job than big ones. If an SC can struggle out a small one, dodge a big one, a medium one is a compromise between the two.

[quote="Mr Bean'] TRACTORS INTEFER WITH EACH OTHER [/quote]

1. So because some tractors may cross this A.) renders them useless to capture things, and B.) renders every other tratcor useless to capture things. Nope. 2. I think Mr. Advanced Imperial Computer, can do a pretty good job of making sure the beams don't intersect to much.

This last point about Rouges/Wraiths: Your saying that 12 fighters fought an ISD with 10 tractors and not a single one is captured, well what do they win! I'm talking about more than one craft totaly focused on a single craft.

And how exactly are we all sure ion cannons would've worked on the SC? I think that somewhere in the midst of battle even an idiot like Daala would've used them. Its probable she knew they wouldn't work, and decided not to waste the energy using them when TLs had the potential to do more damage. After all, I can see the "quantum crytsalline" armor to be able to absorb ion blasts, for whatever reason.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-26 08:55pm

And how exactly are we all sure ion cannons would've worked on the SC? I think that somewhere in the midst of battle even an idiot like Daala would've used them. Its probable she knew they wouldn't work, and decided not to waste the energy using them when TLs had the potential to do more damage. After all, I can see the "quantum crytsalline" armor to be able to absorb ion blasts, for whatever reason.

Simple Fact is, She can't, The Ion Cannon besides Overloading Circuts causes combestables and spare explosives to go off, Whats on the Sun-Crusher? Around Tweleve(To three depending on when) Resonance Torps, What are Resonace torps Side effects when not launched into a sun but instead explode elsewhere?

Several Million Degrees of Direct Heat. Keep in mind she wanted the Sun-Crusher alive every time it attacked and Quantum Armor or not the Inside of the ship is gonna be vaped to leave her a nice Quantum Hull with no ship under it is the same as not having the ship at all
(Remeber when she was yelling we have to get it back?)

1. So because some tractors may cross this A.) renders them useless to capture things, and B.) renders every other tratcor useless to capture things. Nope. 2. I think Mr. Advanced Imperial Computer, can do a pretty good job of making sure the beams don't intersect to much.

Are you gonna Speculate there is suddnely a Craft that is nothing but a solid Wall of Tractors?
Unless your using Diffrent Ships you have a Max of TWO to bring to Bear at any one time considering Distances and Ship Makeups on everything but a Sovergin or Eclipse which could just use the Superlaser on it...
And if your using diffrent Ships its inventable...
Second you dodged the Issue, You said flood an area with Tractors without explaing how, I said thats not possible and provided some pretty damn conclusive Evidance on the point and you jumped agian saying well the computer could keep them apart... The same computer that can't target the ship by itself to begin with you mean?

This last point about Rouges/Wraiths: Your saying that 12 fighters fought an ISD with 10 tractors and not a single one is captured, well what do they win! I'm talking about more than one craft totaly focused on a single craft.

You can't Totaly Focuse on one Craft beacuse the hull is KINDA IN THE WAY, Each Tractor has a defined Area of Resobilbility and even if thiere are two thousand Fighters in one area why not try and grap one, could not hurt could it?
Well it would not but they never did...

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-08-26 08:57pm

Simple:

Send 16 ships that can't be killed by laser canons. He'll kill them with torpedoes.

Then tractor him. If he rams you, too bad. Stay close enough so he can't accererate.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-26 09:03pm

Just a Note GAT he only has 12 far as I know and who says he's gonna stick around?

And as I said to kill it use a FREKEN ION CANNON

That will kill it, Bean's Seal of Aproval and everything(KJA is idiot enough to ignore this but we are smart enough to rationlise why he did not think of it,(They wanted to cap it not kill it) )

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-26 09:16pm

Mr Bean wrote:Simple Fact is, She can't, The Ion Cannon besides Overloading Circuts causes combestables and spare explosives to go off, Whats on the Sun-Crusher? Around Tweleve(To three depending on when) Resonance Torps, What are Resonace torps Side effects when not launched into a sun but instead explode elsewhere?

Several Million Degrees of Direct Heat. Keep in mind she wanted the Sun-Crusher alive every time it attacked and Quantum Armor or not the Inside of the ship is gonna be vaped to leave her a nice Quantum Hull with no ship under it is the same as not having the ship at all
(Remeber when she was yelling we have to get it back?)

I yes, I remeber now. My mistake.

Mr Bean wrote: Are you gonna Speculate there is suddnely a Craft that is nothing but a solid Wall of Tractors?
Unless your using Diffrent Ships you have a Max of TWO to bring to Bear at any one time considering Distances and Ship Makeups on everything but a Sovergin or Eclipse which could just use the Superlaser on it...
And if your using diffrent Ships its inventable...
Second you dodged the Issue, You said flood an area with Tractors without explaing how, I said thats not possible and provided some pretty damn conclusive Evidance on the point and you jumped agian saying well the computer could keep them apart... The same computer that can't target the ship by itself to begin with you mean?

No, I'm certain there isn't a craft that can project a wall of tractors, which wasn't my point ot begin with.

Also, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to use diffrent ships. Carracks, Dreadnaughts, maybe some sort of boarding craft that pays special attention to tractors? All possibilities.

Secondly, I did not dodge the issue. I clearly stated that those beams that did cross would be right back tractoring after a short moment, so it would be of little concequence. And I doubt all the beams would cross, many would still be uselful, that didn't intersect. Which also brings me to my next point, is it possible that the SC could be caught in two intersecting beams? I don't actually know, but its an intereting idea.

As for the computer, I figure all tactical data (including those on tractors) is shared with each attacking ship. This would probably minimize intersections, since each ship would know where the other ships are. I doubt this would prevent them, but keep them to a minimum.

Mr Bean wrote: You can't Totaly Focuse on one Craft beacuse the hull is KINDA IN THE WAY, Each Tractor has a defined Area of Resobilbility and even if thiere are two thousand Fighters in one area why not try and grap one, could not hurt could it?
Well it would not but they never did...

I'm quite aware that not all tractors could come to bear on the SC. My point was that all craft in the area would be focusing there attack on the SC. That doesn't mean firing all tractors at it, especially when the tractors are blocked by the ships hull.

And I'm not quite sure what your trying to say with the two thousand ship example....

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-26 09:30pm

Also, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to use diffrent ships. Carracks, Dreadnaughts, maybe some sort of boarding craft that pays special attention to tractors? All possibilities.

Shall I sing no evidance agian? Prehaps I shal, Prehaps I shan't

I clearly stated that those beams that did cross would be right back tractoring after a short moment, so it would be of little concequence. And I doubt all the beams would cross, many would still be uselful, that didn't intersect. Which also brings me to my next point, is it possible that the SC could be caught in two intersecting beams? I don't actually know, but its an intereting idea.

The point is however unlike the Rope example each Tractor that interfers with each other further reduces accurasy as it MOVES the two ships that intersect, Sure its only for a second, prehaps less but thats throws your calcuations out the window agian(Imaging trying to play Pool on a Ship in a Harbor and you get the idea, the is little movement but any ship that does move is ENOUGH to add a bit of movment that screws up your shot)

As for the computer, I figure all tactical data (including those on tractors) is shared with each attacking ship. This would probably minimize intersections, since each ship would know where the other ships are. I doubt this would prevent them, but keep them to a minimum.

But how easy is that to do? And even if it is there WILL be a slight lag between each ship that results in the Tractors crossing each other, Also its invetable if your chasing a Target the Beams HAVE to intersect otherwise your will be getting a Keystone Cops sitation where every trys to run after the crook but all get stuck in the door.

And I'm not quite sure what your trying to say with the two thousand ship example....

Simple your Stratagy of trying to grap it with Tractors is about as useful as waiting on those hundred Monkeys...

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-26 09:45pm

My mistake on the no evidence, from the EGVV: the Carrack cruiser has five tractor beam projectors, the Dreadnaught has none, but the Nebulon-B (which is a good of choice as any) has a pair of them. Very few yes, but you'll be able to get alot more of them in then ISDs.

Mr Bean wrote: The point is however unlike the Rope example each Tractor that interfers with each other further reduces accurasy as it MOVES the two ships that intersect, Sure its only for a second, prehaps less but thats throws your calcuations out the window agian(Imaging trying to play Pool on a Ship in a Harbor and you get the idea, the is little movement but any ship that does move is ENOUGH to add a bit of movment that screws up your shot)

Indeed it does, I'm not sure what calculations your talking about (beam trajectory?) but thats hardly enough to count them out, they'll be back, and they'll still have their tractors.

Mr Bean wrote: But how easy is that to do? And even if it is there WILL be a slight lag between each ship that results in the Tractors crossing each other, Also its invetable if your chasing a Target the Beams HAVE to intersect otherwise your will be getting a Keystone Cops sitation where every trys to run after the crook but all get stuck in the door.

Well with Mr. Advanced Imperial Computer, it shouldn't be too difficult to relay information to another ship that isn't even outside the solar system. I would speculate it would be even close to real-time, if not so. And even if the beams do intersect it won't be anything catastrophic. Just back to the old chase-a-roo.

Well Bean, I'm afraid I must be leaving now. Debate later, good day.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-26 10:02pm

[/quote]
My mistake on the no evidence, from the EGVV: the Carrack cruiser has five tractor beam projectors, the Dreadnaught has none, but the Nebulon-B (which is a good of choice as any) has a pair of them. Very few yes, but you'll be able to get alot more of them in then ISDs.
[/quote]
Specficly desgied for is what I was refering to not that they did not have any Tractors...

Indeed it does, I'm not sure what calculations your talking about (beam trajectory?) but thats hardly enough to count them out, they'll be back, and they'll still have their tractors.

Yes its just the Aiming(IE you are here the Emiter is here its Aimed this way, remeber its has two things it has to keep track of)
Ship is Here=DX
Emiter is here=EX
Its at this power=PX
Exctra
And this is what it uses to aim, now if you change on of the variable it has to recalucate. And when facing a target whos DX increases and decreses by large AND small amounts thats makes things a magintude harder(Like trying to hit a Target from 100 Meters while jumping up and down to give an example)(And the target is moving too mind you)

Well with Mr. Advanced Imperial Computer, it shouldn't be too difficult to relay information to another ship that isn't even outside the solar system. I would speculate it would be even close to real-time, if not so. And even if the beams do intersect it won't be anything catastrophic. Just back to the old chase-a-roo.

Except of course if the SC makes on of your ships go Kaboomie!

Well Bean, I'm afraid I must be leaving now. Debate later, good day.

Nice to see somone people can end a post on a postive note, Good night to you as well

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-26 10:51pm

Since tractor beams are gravitational effects, they should inevitably interfere with one another, though SW computers could be programmed to compensate for this. This would also not necessarily mean that it is harder to hold a single small ship with one beam than with two, it is just stating that the beams should interfere with each other to some extent.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-08-27 01:04am

Mr Bean wrote:Sigh another vist from DG who can't be bothered to stay civil right or wrong ok lets see what he has tossed up this time

Do you tell Mr. Wong the same thing when he argues a Trekkie? Or like the Jedi Academy Trilogy did you not bother to read his site?

For some reason, you keep changing the parameters of your argument. Everytime someone cites an example, you go 'a fighter manuvering'. or 'it'll just rip out of the lock
Because it can do either, Its sure as hell is possible to Avoid the Lock by Manvoring OR Break the Lock if you where caught because you where not manvoring or the other guy got lucky
A tractor is not a TL, If I shoot some with one generaly they die and they Can't Break the Death after the fact however with a Tractor you always have that opition from large changes in Velocity to destroying the Emiter there are quite a few ways to break a Lock, And avoid a lock altogther, You know what Taticits are DG?

Do you have to recite what I post in different words so that you can believe you are making a point? No shit sherlock. That was part of MY post. That the Sun Crusher began manuvering so that Carida could not get a positive lock.

First, Stealthy? Where did you get this from?
Page 279 Jedi Search
The Craft is highly maneuverable and small enough not to be noticed on a systemwide scan

What are the parameters of a systemwide scan? It said SMALL enough. Are X-Wing's A-Wings, B-Wings and Y-Wings now all of the sudden STEALTHY because they are small enough to not be noticed on a system wide scan? Does the scan pick up the Sun Crusher and detect it as space trash? There's millions of possiblities why a system wide scan doesn't notice it.

Carida attempted a lock. Yet, with JEDI ENHANCED abilities, Kyp kept oscilating his orbit so they could never get a positive lock.
Page 2&3 Champions of the Force
The Caridan defense Network spotted the Sun Crusher as Kyp entered orbit
Two things he entered Orbit, Orbit is a term when applied to Ships as a stable strait lined path around the planet at a set altiuded and Speed
Two they did not see him untill he was right over the planet, Considering this is the seat of Training for the Imperal Army its probably safe to say they have a good Sensor Grid and the fact they did not see him before he got into orbit speaks well for the steath of the Sun-Crusher considering How far out the Death Fleet was tracted by the Rebels on Hoth and how far out the people on Hogonor(Home of the Norghi contaning just one spaceport) managed to track Luke when he went there in his X-Wing

Safe to say right? If it's the training center it should have the best of everything basically is what your saying, right? Yet, Furgan was constantly upset because Thrawn and the Emperor had taken everything away. They were lucky to muster up the Dreadnaught they used. No to mention that the personell were partially sentient at best. (That's a little joke there Bean, you know, because they show imcompetence all the time)

His Alarm consoles flashed as the Caridans attempted to lock onto the Sun Crusher with a tractor beam, but Kyp worked the controls with Jedi-Enhanced speed his orbit at random so they could never get a postive lock
He reacted from being at a standstill moving with Jedi speed, The at random part lets us know he was not using Jedi skills there but just flying at random as KJA and most writers always indicate if the Jedi at the time is doing Jedi acts
And besides since the Jedi part is precog how could it be random if he was using his Jedi powers?

The RANDOM part let's us know he was not using Jedi skills?!? Sure, that means when Luke started 'randomly' manuvering in the trench, he wasn't using any form of Jedi skills, like the Force. Also, using the quote you so thoughtfully provided we see the KJA was kind enough to mention that Kyp was using JEDI ENHANCED abilities to manuver the Sun Crusher. There is no mention of Jedi precog in this. He wasn't aware of it until the ALARMS went off. Then he used his JEDI ENHANCED abilities. Why do I get so uncivil?

then that means a normal person couldn't have even manuvered the Sun Crusher at all? Even though astronaughts can do it with the Space Shuttle. They have to get back to Earth somehow.
Gee I don't know maybe all the astronaughts are realy Jedi and the whole things a cover up when they go vist the ISD in Orbit behind da moon! /Sarcasim off, Ok what are you trying to prove here besides the fact you can take awhile to get to the point

No, it drove home the point. Read my entire post and not just the bits you quote off of.

Second, your post says that so far NO Star Wars tractors have managed to HOLD anything
I don't apprecate it when people lie about what I write, My exact words are
A Manvoring Fighter can not be grabed by a Tractor, Untill you have evidance of this EVER occuring
That was quite a few posts back and I changed it to have about as much chance as HTL not using Flack Bursts, I changed that a few posts after that a quite a few before your latest one

Lying about exact writing? Anyone that knows how to work a scroll bar could roll right back up to my post, or subsequently go back to page 1 and find this

Heres a hint Dive Towards the Tractor Beam, Whats on the other end? Why a ship you can dive through and destroy!

Its very hard to do what you mention by its very Nature the SC is hard to get a lock on(ITS STEALTHY!) and so far no SW tractors show an abilites to HOLD somthing
(And BTW if they could sorry to say why the heck don't they use any of those ten tractors on an ISD to hold Fighters still so the HTL can hit them with ease huh? Its not like the Tractors are doing anything else!)

Notice were you wrote '...so far SW tractors show an ability to HOLD something' You made sure it was bold too. I like that part. Maybe you should ask David if he'll let you go back and EDIT your post. Then you wouldn't be lying when you called me a liar.

By the way, it didn't just HOLD the Sun Crusher, the speed at which Kyp came in at was enough to pull the Falcon around.
Two seperate facts here, It did not hold the Sun Crusher rather it slowed it down and in the proccess got far enough away the Falcon had to flip or loose the lock(Only one Tractor on board after all)

WTF!!! Yeah, we know it SLOWED it down. It brought the bastard to a complete stop. The Falcon never had to flip to keep the lock.

p94 Champions of the Force paperback- Last paragraph

'The momentum of the Sun Crusher was enough to jerk the Falcon around, but the tractor beams held. Han pumped up the power, increasing his invisible grip. Finally both ships came to a relative standstill high above the orbital plane of the exploded red-dwarf star.'

Two seperate facts here. First, the MOMENTUM was enough to JERK the Falcon around. Second they came to a relative standstill. This could mean a few things. But since Kyp was ready to fire a torp at 'point blank range' (ref p95 Cotf) I doubt they were moving away from each other. Then again, if they were that close they more than likely were not heading at each other either.

Also, you said the Sun Crusher was traveling in a straight line? Where did you come up with that one? Oh, that's right, you said the SC was doing a strafing run and you do strafing runs in straight lines. Maybe a closet Trekkie such as yourself does. I would assume here though that it would be strafing runs on the video games. I know I haven't flown in real life, but in the video games I'm all over the place on a strafing run.
Ahh so we take your personal experance in video Games as Cannon fact now do we?

Sure why not. We take your misquoted posts as cannon every now and then. Mainly when your mentor Darkstar shows up, boy does he get red in the face.

If you want to use video games tell me what happens when you hit the Strife key in most FPS

strafe key isn't it?

Why you move in a straite line left or right WHO KNEW?

So?

The Dictionary.com Definiton is enough to drive the point home
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=strafe
attack (ground troops, for example) with a machine gun or cannon from a low-flying aircraft.

n.
An attack of machine-gun or cannon fire from a low-flying aircraft.

Okay, this supports you in what manner?

Quick Flying Lesson
Know what happens when you make Radical Movements in an Aircraft close to the ground?
Normaly you flip over and die but even better, If your attacking Ground Troops it does not matter if you have a 1000000000 BPM Machine Gun your not going to hit anything

Oh and for Quick Reference I HAVE flow in real life and if you go up to any USAF Pilot and say a strifing run is anything but a strait line at a target to maxiumise damage and accurasy he's(And now she) is likley to beat you to a pulp for your idiotic statment or just laugh in your face depending on how well they know you

Finally you answer a question your asked. You have flown. I'm sure like most of your post it's utter bullshit, but today, I'll take it at face value. So we ask a military person how an 18 year old fresh from a life in mines with no lights would do a strafing run? How about someone who doesn't have ANY flying experience what a kid from a mine with no lights would do a strafing run in a vacuum. I understand full well that if I was in some jet, there wouldn't be any manuvering on a strafing run. But then again your so cleverly linked definition doesn't say a strafing run is in a STRAIGHT LINE either.

Now, you see, my points were about a tractor being able to HOLD anything, especially the Sun Crusher which you are saying can't be done here
And finaly last part I have to respond to, Guess what thats not what I'm saying, If your going to say somthing please bother to read the posts first before coming in with a load of stuff thats already been said.

I did read the posts dipshit. I posted them over and over. Why? Because you kept CHANGING when you were proven wrong. It was shown that you could tractor and HOLD the Sun Crusher. You said yeah, because it was close and almost still relative to the Falcon. Yet it was doing strafing runs.

'The Sun Crusher hurtled past them, swerving at the last moment to fire a burst of lasers from the defensive weapons mounted on the hull.' (ref p94 CotF)

The strafing run of the Sun Crusher involved hurtling past the Falcon and swerving at the last moment. Kyp is acting like he is going to ram them, then on another run Han cathces him in a tractor grip enough to spin the Falcon around and bring them to a relative standstill. My point as usual still stands. The Sun Crush CAN be tractored and HELD.

Have a nice day

Fuck off.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-08-27 02:24am

Kill a suncrusher?
Generate a black hole where it is, using a couple of gravshock devices.

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-08-27 02:58am

Try a centerline penetration, in at the bow, out at middle nozzle section. Assess damage. Or perhaps a penetration from the top of bridge tower, through the engine sections...

Also don't forget the Power Cells and Simply Running into the Reactor as the SC is speced to take that explosion while the Ship itself is not

Okay....From a brief memory of the Sun Crusher's pic in EGWT or something like that, a human was about 1/5 or 1/6 the size of the Sun Crusher. So we aren't talking about something very big.

In Wraith Squadron, a pilot went into a Star Destroyer and slowly started to destroy the power cells. In a TIE fighter. So we aren't talking Proton Torpedoes, we're talking 1 KT lasers, about. So going through a power cell as a means to blow up the ship doesn't seem to be very feasible. I'm not disagreeing with you that hitting the reactor isn't going to be very good for the SD, but the SC is still a very TINY thing compared to a Star Destroyer.

My second point is that maintaing a perfectly straight path through a Star Destroyer to aim at something is highly improbable. While nothing could *damage* the Sun Crusher, it isn't a perfectly honed blade. Some parts of the Star Destroyer wil be weaker then others, and the part of the Sun Crusher that is facing the weaker part will come around faster then the part that's going through the stronger part, and throw the craft off course. Here's one example from Jedi Apprentice:

One suicidal TIE fighter rammed into the Sun Crusher to deflect it's course, but merely exploded upon hitting the invincible quantum armor. Han had no trouble compensating for the error in trajectory.

While this quote would seem to indicate that the margin of inaccuracy would be very low through the ship, you must remember that he had no trouble correcting the change through the controls, not that the error in trajectory was very tiny. Consider that a shift of maybe 1-2 degrees conservatively throughout the ship happening every half-second and keeping a straight course would be something of a miracle, and would demand a pilot far in excess of Han's skills. A Force-sensitive pilot might have trouble. But the idea of a Force-sensitive pilot would seem contradictory, considering that an unlikely convergence of insanity, Force ability and knowledge of the ship would be necessary. You'd need a second person (or a probe....But we're assuming that the psycho didn't equip the SC with things not originally in the design specs) to coordinate the location of the ship and the location of the reactor or drive units. Factor in the movement of the Star Destroyer in 360* and the terrific uber-linear acceleration, and the Crusher would need to be facing it straight on or from the behind to hit a specific target with accuracy.

So yes, a Sun Crusher targeting a Star Destroyer from the back 180* will probably result in some sizable damage. However, the Star Destroyers are chasing the SC, not fleeing from it. There aren't many tractor beams next to the reactor, so the most likely target would be straight through the ship vertically through the main docking bay to escape. The *other* 180* are up to debate. Han and Kyp were aiming for a Star Destroyer that was aimed straight at them, and the bridge in that circumstance isn't a hard target.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2002-08-27 03:51am

Umm, but I thought it had room for a few crew members if you want to have them, though one man can handle it.

It is not a blade, but a Star Destroyer is probably symmetrical (left and right) to reduce yawing problems. Both sides are likely to be equally resistive.

The higher the impact speed, the less the deflection would probably be, and any hit that holes the reactor vessel can't be good for the ship.

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-08-27 05:51am

Yes. A reactor shot would kill the SD. But if we're talking about someone willing to blow up solar systems, then he must be pretty focused and determined toward his goal. *SHOULD* he get caught by a Star Destroyer tractor beam, he'd probably carve a path up through the docking bay and out so he could make the jump to hyperspace, and not take a detour near the reactor.

You must remember that the TIE fighter and Sun Crusher were both moving at a pretty fast clip. Han acclerated *before* the TIE hit, so he hit the Star Destroyer at the same speed. If the TIE fighter's impact was enough to knock the Sun Crusher a little off course, imagine hitting bulkheads one after another and another and another for however long it takes you to go through. The changes pile up.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2002-08-27 06:37am

It depends on how well your approach is. If you go right down the centerline of a bulkhead, you should be fine

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-27 07:37am

Also keep in mind no one is going to stop you from Throwing it into reverse and back up a bit to gain speed half way through the hull

Also though the Outer areas of the hull are very strong I don't think they have two foot neutrinum bulck heads between the Offciers quaters on the way to the Reactor(Though THATS gonna be Armored the Cooling Tanks are not)

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-27 01:52pm

Mr Bean wrote:Specficly desgied for is what I was refering to not that they did not have any Tractors...

I only said it was a possibility. After all a tractor craft would be useful for chasing down enemy ships.However, this scenario doesn't include them anyways.

{quote="Mr Bean"] Yes its just the Aiming(IE you are here the Emiter is here its Aimed this way, remeber its has two things it has to keep track of)
Ship is Here=DX
Emiter is here=EX
Its at this power=PX
Exctra
And this is what it uses to aim, now if you change on of the variable it has to recalucate. And when facing a target whos DX increases and decreses by large AND small amounts thats makes things a magintude harder(Like trying to hit a Target from 100 Meters while jumping up and down to give an example)(And the target is moving too mind you)

I see your point. However unlike your example (hitting target 100 meters away) There would be dozens of diffrent objects trying to hit that object, all from diffrent angles and distances. Difficult-yes. Impossible-certantly not.

Also, it would seem that the SC won't be able to escape either, should it even think of stopping to make a jump to hyperspace, SPLAT! Hes caught. And after all, the SC will be the one who gives in the end, for there is no way it could have as much fuel as an ISD, or even a much smaller capship, for that matter.

Mr Bean wrote: Except of course if the SC makes on of your ships go Kaboomie!

Ah-ah Mr Bean! It would appear now it is you who has dodged the subject. Do you agree that communications (such as battle commands from ships ie-tratcors) could be delivered to another craft in real/near real time? After all, I'm not intersted in whether or not that craft could be destroyed.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-27 03:22pm

I see your point. However unlike your example (hitting target 100 meters away) There would be dozens of diffrent objects trying to hit that object, all from diffrent angles and distances. Difficult-yes. Impossible-certantly not.

Aha! But but my example is simplistic on PURPOSE By adding Diffrent angles and apporaches you not only increase the number of varibles you infact MULTIPLY them by a HUGE amount, From the normal two deminsonal ten or so to a 5th Demension(Time don't forget, now and then)(possible Six if you count where it WILL be) and not only take ten and add them to the each new demnsion you add another bascily five thousand Terms to the equation, If its in Deep Space you have a much easier time than say near a planet which throws an extra 300 things to keep track of and generaly making things VERY
These are not Culture AI's we are talking about here these are the same Computers who can't use LTs and even Ball style(think the MF turrets) to hit Fighters what chance will they have with Large slower Tractors even if thier are more?
Every factor you add in increase the diffculty and that my friend works aginst you more than anything else

Ah-ah Mr Bean! It would appear now it is you who has dodged the subject. Do you agree that communications (such as battle commands from ships ie-tratcors) could be delivered to another craft in real/near real time? After all, I'm not intersted in whether or not that craft could be destroyed.

I'm not dodging the subject simply pointing somthing out, Cordinated or Not sooner or later the SC pilot is going to get Fed up and blow up a ship or two and after that your going to be in trouble, Simple logisitics like say fifty men with Hand Guns VS a F-18, Sure they might take it down but sooner or later the F-18s gonna get some of them and thats decreasing your chances there

The game is a game of Probabilty and short of a Deep-Space Engagment VS Thirty ISD plus ten Interducters(Scall up from there for great probablity) I don't see the odds on your side

Of course One ISD who gets Lucky with an Ion Cannon, Or Two who can simply spray space(Or a Planet Based Ion Cannon, unwieldy as it is the shot on that sucker is HUGE roughly half the diamter of a Corvette and you can use weapons like that to Herd the target)

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-27 03:52pm

Mr Bean wrote:Aha! But but my example is simplistic on PURPOSE By adding Diffrent angles and apporaches you not only increase the number of varibles you infact MULTIPLY them by a HUGE amount, From the normal two deminsonal ten or so to a 5th Demension(Time don't forget, now and then)(possible Six if you count where it WILL be) and not only take ten and add them to the each new demnsion you add another bascily five thousand Terms to the equation, If its in Deep Space you have a much easier time than say near a planet which throws an extra 300 things to keep track of and generaly making things VERY
These are not Culture AI's we are talking about here these are the same Computers who can't use LTs and even Ball style(think the MF turrets) to hit Fighters what chance will they have with Large slower Tractors even if thier are more?
Every factor you add in increase the diffculty and that my friend works aginst you more than anything else

Indeed. However, this only makes it far more difficult for the unfortunate SC. Not only would he have to watch his back, but his front. And his sides. And above him. And below him. And in nearly every single direction around him. Even with the most sophisticated computer in the world, can you dodge beams that have the potential to come at you at nearly all diffrent sides? Certaintly the attacking ship won't be able to fire their tractors in every diffrent angle and direction, but you get my drift.

And again assuming Mr. Advanced Imperial Computer keeps track of these tractors, the difficulty can be minimized. Think about it, Mr. AIC basicly knows where every tractor is, where its going, when its going to get there, how its going to get there, what its going to do when it gets there, and when its decideing to come back.

Obviously it won't be able to get all the info, like those above, correct all the time, but I beileve it could do a pretty good job. And factroing in the huge chance of human error, you're going to have some problems,but not enough to endanger the operation.

Mr Bean wrote: I'm not dodging the subject simply pointing somthing out, Cordinated or Not sooner or later the SC pilot is going to get Fed up and blow up a ship or two and after that your going to be in trouble, Simple logisitics like say fifty men with Hand Guns VS a F-18, Sure they might take it down but sooner or later the F-18s gonna get some of them and thats decreasing your chances there
Well Bean, they were two totaly unrelated subjects, but anywho.

But you see that F-18 has a very limited supply of ammo. And without this ammo its effectivley nothing aginst the men with the hand guns. After it kills so many men, it'll be on the run. And won't have anything to defend itself.

Mr Bean wrote: The game is a game of Probabilty and short of a Deep-Space Engagment VS Thirty ISD plus ten Interducters(Scall up from there for great probablity) I don't see the odds on your side

A few more than a dozen ships outta do it. They don't even have to be ISDs. Anything with tractors will do.

As for ion cannons, they may be the effective way to kill the SC, but I'm arguing about tractors just to argue, and to prove they can work. Its gotten wuite intersting, and I wouldn't want to spoil a debate, not when its just started to get good.

Later Bean.[/i]

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-27 04:39pm

And again assuming Mr. Advanced Imperial Computer keeps track of these tractors, the difficulty can be minimized. Think about it, Mr. AIC basicly knows where every tractor is, where its going, when its going to get there, how its going to get there, what its going to do when it gets there, and when its decideing to come back.
(Ed-:shock: )

Obviously it won't be able to get all the info, like those above, correct all the time, but I beileve it could do a pretty good job. And factroing in the huge chance of human error, you're going to have some problems,but not enough to endanger the operation.

I trust you've never eeeeeeeeeeeeever seen the inside of an Astronymy class-room or ever taken a course longer than five mintues, Considering the few factors you have to be involed in just charting the course of say an Comet as it goes around the sun and the eight and ahalf pages you fill with calcuations in doing this and that 8 1/2 is if you write VERY small.
I'll put it this way to give you a sense of how hard this is

A 100 GHTZ Computer of Today with ton of Ram and Storage could not hope to do it even if it was in deep space with only two ships and the SC was moving at 1/16 its top speed and thats for a Custom Built computer designed to handle this job. NOT A SNOWBALLS CHANCE IN A BLAST FURNACE!

THESE ARE NOT CULTURE AIs Here Gnome, The shear number of factors your talking about infulancing one another range into the Millions, BILLIONS if your near a Planet

Let me stop you right here Gnome as the shear lack of a grasp of how hard what your purposing is.
THERE IS MORE CHANCE OF LUKE SPONTATINOUSLY TURING INTO A COW THAN YOU HAVE OF PULLING THIS OFF

I don't know if I can be any clear on the subject but suffice it to say what your blithy purposing as easy is right up there with the Cow example in Probablity of how hard it is, Second I've been humoring you up to this point but your shear... IDOICY, No no I won't call it that, its probably not, Its more likley unfamiliarty of five demension Mathmatics(A subject 90% of the population will run screaming from and the other 9.9999% will have there heads exploded at the shear diffuclity of trying to comprehend it

I'll put it to you this way
Two years ago when they sent the probe to Mars, The Course they first calcuated it would have to take took them(Twenty Doctorit Carring Physisits) took them three weeks and and the services of a CRAY-2 to first Solve the problem let alone double check or quadriple check there math, And they still lost it with somthing as simple as one group used the wrong units and mistramited two numbers into slightly higher than they should be cause the probe to crash into Mars.

Do you know how long thier math is? Printed in 8 sized Font in MS word it came to one hundred and eighty six pages of calculations all togther plus the extra seventy pages of double checking
And thats to send a single ship with all know factors on it inculding everything from what speed to what type of fuel it will carry in a relativlty strait line to a planet, use spray bottle sized engines to reverse itself into orbit and they still screwed up and lost it

Even writing about the Math(One of the things I ran across when I wanted to know more was six pages of the calcutations and just reading them gave me a strong urge to end my existance, Even writing this post about it brings back that urge to runing screaming from the room or take a lighter to the printed sheets.

Here you talking about far greater speeds, Forces, numbers of Gravitontional Effects and what-not

Let me give you an example, A Crystal Gravity Field Trap, Desgined to scan regions of space and calcutate gravity effects on them to determine if thier is a cloacked shio near by have thier effectivness reduced by HALF if stationed on the planet, One good plantary sized gravitonal Force is good enough to cut the best of the best of SW Sensors in half....

And your talking about several of those planet sized gravitonal effects all some sweelty working in perfect unision becaus any screw-up will lead to a greater screw-up which leads to all previous numbers being lost and....

Arghh, I can't even go on but suffice it to say what your purpsoing, the Shear... insanity of how easy your trying to make it seem.. Theres a reason why I compare this to Culture AIs Gnome, It IS that hard and your making it far. FAR FAR easier then it acutaly is...

Now one more quick one before I go and sleep of having to remeber 5th Demension Math

But you see that F-18 has a very limited supply of ammo. And without this ammo its effectivley nothing aginst the men with the hand guns. After it kills so many men, it'll be on the run. And won't have anything to defend itself.

Know what Mach 2 Looks like a Ground Level?
Its a shockwave strong enough to lift a man and fling him twenty feet like a Rag Doll to say nothing of shattering glass and throwing Cars(I've seen a Video of a F-14 do Mach 1.5 dive down and use the Pressure to Flip a Yugo over and push it a few feet)

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2002-08-27 08:12pm

A very nasty concussion force. While it won't crack the quantum armor, it will kill the crew and maybe destroy the equipment on board. It's not unlike some instances where a missile hits a tank, not penatrating the armor, but hitting it hard enough to kill or at least give the tank crew a good shaking over.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-27 08:42pm

A very nasty concussion force. While it won't crack the quantum armor, it will kill the crew and maybe destroy the equipment on board. It's not unlike some instances where a missile hits a tank, not penatrating the armor, but hitting it hard enough to kill or at least give the tank crew a good shaking over.

What are you going to hit it? A School Bus doing .9C?

Seriously though Internal Compesators, The've already demonstated the ability to negate even 500 G turns, And thats on a X-WING

Why bother when Ion Cannons do it just as well?

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2002-08-27 09:01pm

Mr Bean wrote:
A very nasty concussion force. While it won't crack the quantum armor, it will kill the crew and maybe destroy the equipment on board. It's not unlike some instances where a missile hits a tank, not penatrating the armor, but hitting it hard enough to kill or at least give the tank crew a good shaking over.
What are you going to hit it? A School Bus doing .9C?

Seriously though Internal Compesators, The've already demonstated the ability to negate even 500 G turns, And thats on a X-WING

Why bother when Ion Cannons do it just as well?

I was thinking more in the lines of a dreadnought or some other decommisioned Old Republic warship at a fraction of c. BTW: you think 500 g's impressive, just check out the acceleration of Andromeda Ascendant. It can do 170,000 g's. I know you're talking about a 500 g turn and not linear acceleration, but I just wanted to mention it. And, now that I think about it, the Andromeda could do maneuvers that would put the Defiant and Falcon to shame and the Andromeda is larger than an Old Republic dreadnought.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-27 09:10pm

BTW: you think 500 g's impressive, just check out the acceleration of Andromeda Ascendant . It can do 170,000 g's. I know you're talking about a 500 g turn and not linear acceleration, but I just wanted to mention it. And, now that I think about it, the Andromeda could do maneuvers that would put the Defiant and Falcon to shame and the Andromeda is larger than an Old Republic dreadnought.

See thats the thing though CM, its a Fighter, The 500 G turn and its handled fine is good considering the Compesator is roughly the size of shoe-box(500 G easy from a shoe-box IS impressive)

What was the G Figure on the Torps on the DS 1? Was it not 15,000?(Still thats torps)

And no aurgment here the Andromeda is VERY manervable no question here

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2002-08-27 09:29pm

Mr Bean wrote:See thats the thing though CM, its a Fighter, The 500 G turn and its handled fine is good considering the Compesator is roughly the size of shoe-box(500 G easy from a shoe-box IS impressive)

True, but the accleration on CW fighters are between 100,000 to 700,000 g's.

What was the G Figure on the Torps on the DS 1? Was it not 15,000?(Still thats torps)

Actually, the number is 72,000 g's as a conservative estimate. Still lags behind CW missiles which are measured in the millions of g's.

So How Do You Kill A Sun Crusher?

LMSx