The Defenders (Potential Spoilers)

[Majin Gojira]

I think the oddest thing, for me, is that the grand evil plan of the hand basically amounts to: Spoiler

known pseudoscience (fossil "dragon bones" ground up for health reasons) and really, really bad/lazy mining practices.

[FaxModem1]

Well, that seemed like a waste of time, and of Sigourney Weaver's talent.

Is there something special about removing dragon bones from a city that causes the city to fall, or are the Hand just terrible at mining? We're they trying to imply that the dragon bones were tied into the life force or whatever of New York City? Because that didn't come across.

If not, then I guess this means that Weaver is playing Parker Selfridge in a domestic version of Avatar.

It's also worth noting that Danny Rand continues to be an idiot.

Electra: I need you to punch this wall for me.
Danny: Why?
Electra: Because it's a barrier put up by an Iron Fist and only an Iron Fist can open it.
Danny: No
(Fight)
(Electra gets in front of wall)
(Danny punches and she dodges, wall gets destroyed)

He really is the worst Iron Fist ever.

Sidenote, any C-list villains wanting immortality can just hire someone to excavate the area and pick up the bones after the events of the Defenders. Maybe this will be the plot for Kingpin in Daredevil season 3, or how Kilgrave comes back in season 2 of Jessica Jones.

[Elheru Aran]

Spoiler

Re dragon bones: If it WORKS, it's not pseudoscience, is it? I did find it a bit cheesy/cliche, but meh, at that point it was bad enough already that I could accept it.

I suspect Kilgrave is more going to be a feature of heavy flashbacks. I really don't want him to be the big bad of JJ S2.

Here's how I see the respective sequels going (spoilerized, I suppose, I hope that doesn't screw up anybody's quotes):
Spoiler

DD S3: Like Tev guessed, Born Again is possible. I don't know necessarily that they'd be willing to go with a Frank Miller story after the man shat the bed hard with his career re Holy Terror and All Star Batman and Robin, but since there was greater editorial control with his Marvel work... maybe. I don't see it being impossible for Karen Page to get addicted to drugs, and certainly Kingpin seems the vindictive enough sort to really try and screw up Matt Murdock's life, particularly after the guy gets nearly squashed. But on the other hand... everybody thinks he's dead, it's a good time for him to start fresh without the baggage of being Matt Murdock and lying to everybody. So I can see them borrowing stuff from Born Again, but I don't think they'd go with the plot wholesale. Elektra is also an open question at this point. Did she make it out? Is she dead? How is she going to affect Matt now? Is the bloody Hand still around?

JJ S2: Memories/flashbacks of Kilgrave screwing with her head. Probably still an alcoholic at least when the show starts. I can see Malcolm and Trish trying to pull an intervention on her, maybe with Luke's help? Wouldn't be surprised if she goes on a bender and starts tearing stuff up with her super-strength. There is definite chemistry still between her and Luke, so count on that potentially being a complication with LC S2. There seems to be a vague suggestion that she's interested in superheroing it up, but I wouldn't be shocked to see them keep the detective-story angle for another season or so, less dramatic setpieces against super-villains.

LC S2: Shades and Mariah are left hanging. Odds are pretty decent we see them come back in some capacity. Diamondback wasn't particularly popular, Mahersha (however you spell that name) Ali got all the rave reviews for his performance as Cottonmouth. The fundamental concept appears to be Luke trying to clean up Harlem, so... bring in another gang from the old Hero for Hire comics, I guess, or switch it up with like... the Russians from Daredevil S1 or something. Misty Knight is also another hanging loose end. The notion that she and Colleen Wing will do their own thing as Daughters of the Dragon is a fun one, but realistically I'm not sure it's viable as its own show. I can certainly see a subplot with Misty being dropped from the force and having to find her own way as an independent PI, though, perhaps before she gets the classic robot arm.

Iron Fist S2: IIRC this is iffy. Iron Fist S1, from what I understand, performed pretty badly compared to the other shows. And if it didn't, it should've. God it was bad. I really have no idea where they're going with it other than maybe Danny trying to replace Daredevil by foiling street violence and gangs? I'm not familiar with Iron Fist comics, so I really have no idea other than the cheesy kung-fu stuff, which isn't really going to fly these days. Unless, like, he opens up K'un-Lun again and there's all the crazy stuff from the Matt Fraction comics in there...

It's also an open question to me how long Rosario Dawson is going to stick with these shows. Either they're going to kill her off for shock value, or have her break up with Luke, probably thanks to Jessica Jones.

[LadyTevar]

Elheru? the second spoiler won't show.

[Tsyroc]

Elheru Aran's second spoiler:
Spoiler

DD S3: Like Tev guessed, Born Again is possible. I don't know necessarily that they'd be willing to go with a Frank Miller story after the man shat the bed hard with his career re Holy Terror and All Star Batman and Robin, but since there was greater editorial control with his Marvel work... maybe. I don't see it being impossible for Karen Page to get addicted to drugs, and certainly Kingpin seems the vindictive enough sort to really try and screw up Matt Murdock's life, particularly after the guy gets nearly squashed. But on the other hand... everybody thinks he's dead, it's a good time for him to start fresh without the baggage of being Matt Murdock and lying to everybody. So I can see them borrowing stuff from Born Again, but I don't think they'd go with the plot wholesale. Elektra is also an open question at this point. Did she make it out? Is she dead? How is she going to affect Matt now? Is the bloody Hand still around?

JJ S2: Memories/flashbacks of Kilgrave screwing with her head. Probably still an alcoholic at least when the show starts. I can see Malcolm and Trish trying to pull an intervention on her, maybe with Luke's help? Wouldn't be surprised if she goes on a bender and starts tearing stuff up with her super-strength. There is definite chemistry still between her and Luke, so count on that potentially being a complication with LC S2. There seems to be a vague suggestion that she's interested in superheroing it up, but I wouldn't be shocked to see them keep the detective-story angle for another season or so, less dramatic setpieces against super-villains.

LC S2: Shades and Mariah are left hanging. Odds are pretty decent we see them come back in some capacity. Diamondback wasn't particularly popular, Mahersha (however you spell that name) Ali got all the rave reviews for his performance as Cottonmouth. The fundamental concept appears to be Luke trying to clean up Harlem, so... bring in another gang from the old Hero for Hire comics, I guess, or switch it up with like... the Russians from Daredevil S1 or something. Misty Knight is also another hanging loose end. The notion that she and Colleen Wing will do their own thing as Daughters of the Dragon is a fun one, but realistically I'm not sure it's viable as its own show. I can certainly see a subplot with Misty being dropped from the force and having to find her own way as an independent PI, though, perhaps before she gets the classic robot arm.

Iron Fist S2: IIRC this is iffy. Iron Fist S1, from what I understand, performed pretty badly compared to the other shows. And if it didn't, it should've. God it was bad. I really have no idea where they're going with it other than maybe Danny trying to replace Daredevil by foiling street violence and gangs? I'm not familiar with Iron Fist comics, so I really have no idea other than the cheesy kung-fu stuff, which isn't really going to fly these days. Unless, like, he opens up K'un-Lun again and there's all the crazy stuff from the Matt Fraction comics in there...

It's also an open question to me how long Rosario Dawson is going to stick with these shows. Either they're going to kill her off for shock value, or have her break up with Luke, probably thanks to Jessica Jones.

[Tsyroc]

At this point I am more of a fan of Jessica Jones than the other characters, although I do like Cage a lot and the second comic book subscription I got in the 70s was for Daredevil, which included early Frank Miller. (The book was Bi-Monthly back then. Something I didn't realize at first. I eventually gave up that subscription and got one to the Uncanny X-Men. I already had one to the FF and I kept getting both books into the early 90s. I think I have at least 200 consecutive issues of the FF).

I'm not sure where they can go with Jessica. She really has very little comic book backstory to pull from.

Cage is cool on his own but also has some entertaining stuff from his friendship with Iron Fist, his time in the real Defenders (Doctor Strange, Hulk, Namor, The Silvers Surfer, The Son of Satan, Hellcat etc...), and filling in for The Thing in the FF (which was kind of ridiculous at the time since he was about as strong as Spider-man and "only" had "steel hard skin". Reed Richards came up with a Thing style exosuit for Ben Grimm to wear a few issues down the road that were nearly as badass as the natural Thing that would have kicked the crap out of "Power Man".

In the 90s, Cage got a second does of the Power Man process. It made his leather jacket "steel hard" souped up at least one enemy and moved him from "steel hard skin" to "diamond hard skin" and an approximate power boost to about 3 x the strength of typical Spider-man. Something in his genetic makeup is why the process works on him. Which kind of fits with why (in the show) they might be interested in experimenting on his half brother "Diamondback".

I don't recall Diamondback being related to Luke in the comics but they could use the tie-in to make him Power Master (from the 90s books).

[Tsyroc]

Here's a question for the people who've only watched the shows.

On Facebook someone suggested that Jessica is a lot stronger than Cage and that his "strength" is only because he can exert more "natural human" force on his body because the "unbreakableness" he has. I think he has super strength on top of that but that doesn't mean that Jessica isn't inherently stronger than he is.

I think that is an interesting way of looking at things but I think Cage has been shown to be stronger than that in the shows. I could be wrong, and maybe being unbreakable does allow for the amount of super strength that Cage has shown.

Jessica's strength level has always been sketchy. I always assume that she is at least around Jessica Drew (original Spider-Woman 7 tons) strength since she was able to knock Jessica Drew out (granted, this was when JD's powers where in that sketchy zone of whether they'd work or not).

In the show we've pretty much got the "foreplay" scene between her and Cage where she looks to at least give him a run for his money, and then in The Defenders when she holds up the elevator. She also stops a "slow moving car" in her own show. She also barely tags a guy during the early fight scene and he went flying. That kind of fits with her in the comics. People tend to underestimate her under normal circumstances and then they make her lose her shit and they are in for a whole world of hurt. (Example: In The Pulse she loses her shit, while pregnant, after Norman Osborn exploded a bomb trying to kill a bunch of cops, her and Ben Ehrlich. She seems significantly stronger than the Green Goblin 5 tons at that point).

One of my favorite comic scenes from the New Avengers is when Wolverine tells Cage that he's more afraid of his wife (Jessica) than he is of him. (Both of them are significantly stronger than Logan but considering who he's gone against at that time I'm guessing that part of his (minimal) concern of fighting either Cage or Jessica is based on the potential craziness factory, and that she can fly.) Seriously, for all intents and purposes you don't want to mess with Cage but Jessica is probably the person in her strength range (Spider-manish) to most likely lose her shit and go on a not quite Wolverine berserker fury level of a tirade.

My second favorite scene being when Spider-man fucks with Cage about how Jessica had a crush on him (Peter Parker) during high school and since they are married if Cage would mind if he got himself some of that Iron Fist action now that Cage is married to Jessica and Danny is now free game.

Peter has got some balls. Suggesting that Cage's wife might have preferred him and that Cage might have been gay for Danny Rand. What makes this different from normal Spider-man smack talking is that this is during a down time and not during a battle.

I'm still waiting for Jessica to really fly during the shows, even if her landing sucks.

[Vendetta]

Here's a question for the people who've only watched the shows.

On Facebook someone suggested that Jessica is a lot stronger than Cage and that his "strength" is only because he can exert more "natural human" force on his body because the "unbreakableness" he has. I think he has super strength on top of that but that doesn't mean that Jessica isn't inherently stronger than he is.

On the TV show they seem to be roughly similar in strength. When they fought Jessica was able, barely, to force the shotgun under his chin to knock him out.

In the comics Luke is considerably stronger, as he's been powered up a bit over the years, and he's capable of lifting ~50 tons on a good day. (Comics Jessica can fly though, and she's capable of lifting a few tons and has enhanced durability and healing).

[Lost Soal]

Comics Luke Cage beat up Doctor Doom once over 200$ he was owed

[Elheru Aran]

Comics Luke Cage beat up Doctor Doom once over 200$ he was owed

That's been retconned as a Doombot.

Or was it?

Apologies about the spoiler thing. Thanks to Tsyroc for fixing it.

My take on Luke and JJ re super-strength (I don't think it's a spoiler to just discuss strengths): in the *show* at least, thus far, it appears that Luke has more raw strength. He certainly seems to have no problem throwing/knocking people about. However, one thing I remember from the JJ show-- she seemed to have little problem leaping quite high, to a second story level at least if not higher. Luke hasn't demonstrated anything like that thus far. I'm pretty sure they aren't going to have her flying outright as that would probably bend SoD wayyy too much, but Hulk-style big leaps might not be out of order. It may just be a mass thing, she's certainly not as big as he is, but one would think that if he was capable of it he'd have demonstrated it at some point.

It's possible she's stronger than he is in some ways; I don't recall her for example bending guns out of shape like Luke does with ease. But they can tank each other's shots, so she is probably at least in his weight class, so to speak, or the one just under it; she certainly seemed unsure she could defeat him when Kilgrave set him on her, though that may have been more "I just want to STOP him, not KILL him" in play.

[PREDATOR490]

Luke Cage certainly demonstrates his strength a lot more than Jessica Jones and from what she has done, Cage comes across as stronger.

JJ did not even seem to be that bothered or straining to hold that lift.
Meanwhile: Luke Cage was taking a fair amount of effort to pry open the lift doors.

A fair argument to make is that Luke Cage is pretty brazen about his abilities to the point he openly uses them without concern. By comparison, Jessica Jones is extremely reserved. Could be reasonably justified as holding back for fear of killing someone like she did under Killgrave's influence.

That said, JJ spent most of this series being a smart ass and apathetic. I did find it amusing how JJ was the only one to bring up the tally of laws they were breaking and much shit they were getting in.
Spoiler

I think Stick performed above and beyond what could really have been expected for someone that is not even part of the "Defenders".

[Raw Shark]

LC's strength happens pretty consistently; depending on your concept of JJ's strength, it happens about at the speed of plot in the comics and show. Nothing unusual for the comics, but the tv fans might need a chance to catch up with the genre. Her job is to bring psycho-drama, Krysten Ritter (in her unholy glory), and Wildcat into it, as strong as she needs to be. She can punch guys around and can get punched around as the story demands, but when that elevator needs holding up or there's a 30-second mystery solve, she's your woman. TV JJ is a walking plot device.

[Enigma]

What also makes Luke stronger (or at least the appearance of one)is his invulnerability. He can take a hit without budging while JJ would get knocked down (though she'd just get back up).Spoiler

Hell the fight between the two in JJ did not pit the two as equal fighters. LC was largely in control (fight-wise, even though he was under Kilgrave's control) and it took a shotgun blast to the head to take him down.

Having said that, I did recently watch The Defenders and man is IF a whiny little bitch. MM is overly cautious. I like LC though I haven't seen his show but know him through JJ. JJ to me, IMHO is more of a snarky asshole than before.

As for her not straining in holding onto the elevator cable, she was. At least to me she was straining and not so subtle trying to tell IF and LC to move their ass. I do not think they knew that the bombs were going to go off early so the only explanation for JJ to want the guys off the elevator as quickly as possible is that she couldn't hold onto it much longer.