Game of Thrones season seven trailer.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, I suppose.

I guess I kind of suspected that Barristan was viewing his former boss through rose-tinted glasses. And, let's face it, anyone would look good next to Aerys.

[FaxModem1]

Yeah, I suppose.

I guess I kind of suspected that Barristan was viewing his former boss through rose-tinted glasses. And, let's face it, anyone would look good next to Aerys.

True enough, after having to deal with child burning and laughing about burning down your capital, anything else is a step up. But we know Barristan actually knew the royal family, while Robert only had his skewed perspectives of them. Everyone seemed right on the money for the Mad King, but Rhaegar was a different story.

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Sidenote, I love that during the peace conference scene, Qyburn is just utterly fascinated by the wight, and is playing around with the hand until he hands it back to Jon for the rest of the demonstration.

[Imperial Overlord]

The exact nature of the Lyanna-Rhaegar relationship has long been in question. Plenty of people said Rhaegar was a great and noble knight, but that meant glossing over the fact that he gave a tourney crown to Lyanna Stark and consequently humiliating his own wife in public and letting everyone know that he had the hots for Lyanna. Lyanna had plenty of reasons not to be thrilled with the prospect of marriage to a temperamental womanizer like Robert and think about running away with Rhaegar, but an obsessed prince seizing the woman he can't have also fitted the facts. We now know that it was starcrossed lovers running away, but there was plenty of reason to suspect that it was otherwise.

[Guardsman Bass]

As for the "time cut" issue, all I can say is that I thought the earlier seasons handled this much better. They had time cuts (and so the books), but it was all much better integrated-feeling, and there was a sense of weight and momentum to the order of events. Even seasons 5 and 6 mostly had this, with rare exceptions (such as Littlefinger and Varys).

[Darth Yan]

Yeah, I suppose.

I guess I kind of suspected that Barristan was viewing his former boss through rose-tinted glasses. And, let's face it, anyone would look good next to Aerys.

Yeah, I suppose.

I guess I kind of suspected that Barristan was viewing his former boss through rose-tinted glasses. And, let's face it, anyone would look good next to Aerys.

The problem with Rhaegar the rapist is it was TOO obvious a subversion. It's the lowest hanging fruit you can do (kinda like when Garth Ennis subverted the x men by making them into pedophiles in "The Boys"). Having Rhaegar be a benevolent but ultimately flawed man makes sense and adds more depth and is able to subvert the prince charming archetype without being too blatant.

As an aside here's an interesting article


http://www.denofgeek.com/us/tv/game-of- ... -the-books

[Simon_Jester]

A man who likes to go out in public and sing, take his earnings, and donate them to orphanages does not sound like the characteristics of a rapist.

You'd think so, but it would still fit with the character of, say, a very emotional Byronic character. One who's capable of great generosity and altruism, but when it's him fixated on a woman he desires, in a society where women don't normally get a lot of agency and respect, he's quite capable of going to insane or criminal lengths and ignoring that she doesn't love him back.

[Tsyroc]

The exact nature of the Lyanna-Rhaegar relationship has long been in question. Plenty of people said Rhaegar was a great and noble knight, but that meant glossing over the fact that he gave a tourney crown to Lyanna Stark and consequently humiliating his own wife in public and letting everyone know that he had the hots for Lyanna. Lyanna had plenty of reasons not to be thrilled with the prospect of marriage to a temperamental womanizer like Robert and think about running away with Rhaegar, but an obsessed prince seizing the woman he can't have also fitted the facts. We now know that it was starcrossed lovers running away, but there was plenty of reason to suspect that it was otherwise.

There's only so much "noble" I can give when someone annuls the marriage with a woman he had two children with. He better have some very strong visions as to why he is doing what he is.

Lyanna might have become too enamored of Rhaegar after he tracked her down and figured out she was the the "Laughing Knight" during the Harrenhal Tourney. (which may or may not be true).

I'm assuming that he became too obsessed with prophecy and may have influenced Lyanna at least somewhat in the same direction, on top of the romantic bs that most highborn women are fed about princes and lords. In his own way he might have been as crazy as any crazy Targaryen before him but it wasn't as obvious.

In the show, it was a little creepy that he looked so much like Viseiras. After all the fan artwork making him out to be long haired "hotty" I was expecting someone different than we got.

As for the show, I am curious about them choosing to name Jon "Aegon Targaryen" and whether it was a choice that would allows the mystery in the books to continue. I mean if the series says, ''Aegon Targaryen" is the real heir but the books suggest that name refers to someone other than Jon Snow, it allows for some cool show stuff but still allows for the books to be different. I would have prefered Jaehaerys or Aemon. Preferably Aemon because Jon would have been named after the maester of Castle Black and not known it until later.

One of the videos I watched on YouTube strongly suggested that The Wall will not come down in the same way that it came down in the series. As a fan of Kaiju movies I got a kick out of Viserion sounding like he did (not quite old school King Ghidorah, but he does only have one head) as he laid into the Wall with his blue fire. He sure seemed a lot quicker than Drogon and I'm not sure where he got all those holes in his wings. I'm assuming that some of them happened when he crashed into the ice and when his body was pulled up out of the water, but mostly they are there to "easily" make him easily distinguishable from Drogon and Rhaegal. I had been kind of hoping that they would make the dragons a bit more easily distinguishable but for the most part they've looked the same with subtle color differences. Of course Drogon is significantly larger in the last season or two but the basic body structure is the same with the color differences being more of a highlight than something super obvious.

[FaxModem1]

A man who likes to go out in public and sing, take his earnings, and donate them to orphanages does not sound like the characteristics of a rapist.

You'd think so, but it would still fit with the character of, say, a very emotional Byronic character. One who's capable of great generosity and altruism, but when it's him fixated on a woman he desires, in a society where women don't normally get a lot of agency and respect, he's quite capable of going to insane or criminal lengths and ignoring that she doesn't love him back.

Well sure, this is Game of Thrones, with rape, murder and nihilism being the order of the day. But unless Bran's visions/time travel lie to him, Lyanna and Rhaegar were happily married, in a scene straight out of Romeo and Juliet, with their fates being about the same.

I also prefer the idea of an actual romance, as opposed to Lyanna falling prey to Stockholm Syndrome or whatever. Their world sucks enough, can't there be a romantic here and there, even if they are tragic ones?

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't actually think that Game of Thrones is nihilistic. Dark, yes, sometimes obsessively and gratuitously so, but not nihilistic.

[Simon_Jester]

A man who likes to go out in public and sing, take his earnings, and donate them to orphanages does not sound like the characteristics of a rapist.

You'd think so, but it would still fit with the character of, say, a very emotional Byronic character. One who's capable of great generosity and altruism, but when it's him fixated on a woman he desires, in a society where women don't normally get a lot of agency and respect, he's quite capable of going to insane or criminal lengths and ignoring that she doesn't love him back.

Well sure, this is Game of Thrones, with rape, murder and nihilism being the order of the day. But unless Bran's visions/time travel lie to him, Lyanna and Rhaegar were happily married, in a scene straight out of Romeo and Juliet, with their fates being about the same.

I also prefer the idea of an actual romance, as opposed to Lyanna falling prey to Stockholm Syndrome or whatever. Their world sucks enough, can't there be a romantic here and there, even if they are tragic ones?

I agree with everything you just said.

I was making this comment originally as a way of speaking for the prior probability of Rhaegar having kidnapped an unwilling Lyanna, based on what we knew before this new evidence came in.

In short, Lyanna having consented to elope with Rhaegar is a somewhat larger surprise to me than it appears to have been to you, and therefore a happier surprise, I suspect.

[Solauren]

First, i want to point something out with the pacing:

This was a shortened season, trying to pack a lot in. To me, it almost feels like a little was cut out, for whatever reasons. Just a thought.


Now then, onto the final episode....

I think it handled everything fairly well.

We had characters finally admitting to their own issues/mistakes (i.e if Dany had believed Jon her dragon would still be alive, if Jon wasn't so honest they'd have gotten a deal with Cersei quicker, etc).

I think the scence with Tyrion and Cersei was handled perfectly. It revealed something about Cersei. She's been terrified since Joffery died. First she loses Joffery, then her father, then her little brother (hate him or not, he was still part of her life), then her daughter, then her youngest son. Then, she literally looks death in the face. You could see she was afraid. Yeah, she used that for her advantage with the decepition for Euron to go get mercs, but still.

I just hope she's smart about things, and moves a troops and seige equipment up to the bottle neck that is Moat Catilin (or however it's called) capable of hurtling a shitload of Wyldfire at whomever wins 'the great war'.

Anyway.....
It would appear the Lyanna was not kidnapped. They has actually been a common theory in GOT/SOIAF fandom since before the TV series. Rhaegar was apparently very well loved, very attractive, very personable, and very intelligent. Someone like that figuring out Lyanna Stark = the Laughing Knight, and then going 'you are still the Queen of love and beauty' probably had an impact on her. Add that together, especially if Rhaegar approved of it, and well, when Rhaegar says 'you want to take off and marry me instead of that idiot Robert?'.....

Oh, and a note with Jon Snow's "real name" in the series.

By the time Jon was born, Rhaegar's children were dead. It's possible Lyanna felt guilty about the entire war situation (i.e maybe leaving a note she ran off to marry the prince) and Rhaegar's other children getting killed, and named him Aegon as part of that guilt.

It also combines Jon with the Aegon 'Young Griff' character in the novels.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hmm, now that you mention it, Moat Cailin is probably the only place that you could really bottleneck the Walkers, south of the Wall. Though maybe not even their. As I recall, the problem for armies bypassing it is the marshes. Would that terrain be as much of an impediment to the White Walkers and their army?

[MKSheppard]

I thought that Sansa and Arya screwing Littlefinger over was nice twist (although half-expected) however his "trial" really wasn't much of trial. No evidence was presented, it was just Starks' say-so. It didn't even seem anyone gathered there was even skeptical of the charges nor were any great lords of the north backing Littlefinger in the first place so what was the trial even for? For Robin Arryn's benefit?

This is another symptom of this season.

Stuff happens that makes sense; but is incoherent, with none of the plot lead up to the stuff that you saw in prior seasons of GOT.

For example:

Eurion says he's gonna build a huge navy.
???
He suddenly shows up and assrapes the Sand Snakes at sea.

Likewise, the same happened with Littlefinger's trial.

For all of what he did, he's still the Westerosi equivalent of a "Made Man" as Lord of the Vale, so he can't be arbitrarily executed like a peasant, there has to be a somewhat formal showing of evidence, rather than someone just saying so.

They needed about 5-6 more minutes of scenes there, and maybe 5-6 minutes of screen time across the rest of the episodes to set up this trial.

[MKSheppard]

For example:

They needed a scene or two showing how the Knights of the Vale were wavering in their devotion to Littlefinger as Lord of the Vale; it's only about 30s to 1 min of screen time.

Because otherwise, they're all like "o k-bai" at the trial.

[FireNexus]

For example:

They needed a scene or two showing how the Knights of the Vale were wavering in their devotion to Littlefinger as Lord of the Vale; it's only about 30s to 1 min of screen time.

Because otherwise, they're all like "o k-bai" at the trial.

The Knights of the Vale being disloyal to the guy who got command of them under suspiscious circumstances two years ago doesn't require really any buildup.

[MKSheppard]

The Knights of the Vale being disloyal to the guy who got command of them under suspiscious circumstances two years ago doesn't require really any buildup.

If littlefinger's trial had happened right after he tossed Lyssa Arryn through the Moon Gate, then yes, that'd be believable in how brief it was. But as it is, he's been HMFIC for the Vale for two years now. So you do need some buildup.

[SCRawl]

The Knights of the Vale being disloyal to the guy who got command of them under suspiscious circumstances two years ago doesn't require really any buildup.

If littlefinger's trial had happened right after he tossed Lyssa Arryn through the Moon Gate, then yes, that'd be believable in how brief it was. But as it is, he's been HMFIC for the Vale for two years now. So you do need some buildup.

I'm with FireNexus on this one. Royce was only doing what Littlefinger said because he was afraid little Lord Arryn would make him fly out the Moon door (as seen last season). Does the casual viewer remember this? Maybe not. But they don't have to cater to the casual viewer.

Royce was looking for an excuse to end Baelish, and he certainly wasn't going to help him out of a jam. The buildup was already there.

[Darth Yan]

I thought that Sansa and Arya screwing Littlefinger over was nice twist (although half-expected) however his "trial" really wasn't much of trial. No evidence was presented, it was just Starks' say-so. It didn't even seem anyone gathered there was even skeptical of the charges nor were any great lords of the north backing Littlefinger in the first place so what was the trial even for? For Robin Arryn's benefit?

This is another symptom of this season.

Stuff happens that makes sense; but is incoherent, with none of the plot lead up to the stuff that you saw in prior seasons of GOT.

For example:

Eurion says he's gonna build a huge navy.
???
He suddenly shows up and assrapes the Sand Snakes at sea.

Likewise, the same happened with Littlefinger's trial.

For all of what he did, he's still the Westerosi equivalent of a "Made Man" as Lord of the Vale, so he can't be arbitrarily executed like a peasant, there has to be a somewhat formal showing of evidence, rather than someone just saying so.

They needed about 5-6 more minutes of scenes there, and maybe 5-6 minutes of screen time across the rest of the episodes to set up this trial.

Actually Baelish himself admitted to murdering Lysa. When Sansa calls him out on it he says "I did it to protect you." So right there he kinda sealed his own death warrant. Anyway it was GREAT watching the bastard squirm

[TheFeniX]

Didn't he do it right in front of Sansa? Kill President Airloc.... Moon Door? I mean, this puts her in a pickle for covering for him in the first place, but he makes no mention of it to try and cover his ass. Even before it, just to remind Sansa she could be as fucked as him if it gets down to brass tacks. The master manipulator forgets who he is to get the scene the writers wanted. He's had time to plan and he has zero contingencies. The whole point of him was that he ALWAYS had contingencies and multiple angles going at once.

This is why I had such an issue with Littlefinger continuing to hang around the North. The North is a lot more "simple" than King's Landing. He should be out of his element and HE SHOULD KNOW IT. The further North you go, the less his shit plays. The less his reach becomes. How could he not know this? Well, he did know this, but he just forgot.

Fucking NO ONE likes him. He should be doing whatever he can to solidify his position with Little Robin and/or keep him close at hand. Blood means a lot here since Edmure is able to just walk in, with everyone knowing full-well he's doing it under protest, and say "give up, now" and they do it solely because he's the legit Tully heir.

If Sansa turns on him, Littlefinger is fucked. He can continue to try and manipulate her, but this seems WAY to risky for him. He's directly responsible for Ned's death. He (most likley though not confirmed) knows Varys (who was privy to all this) works for the Dragon Queen now. Jon is getting chummy with the Dagon Lady. Jon doesn't like Littlefinger (as said, NO ONE DOES, except Little Robin). This is ignoring "Oh yea, you sold Sansa as a rape and torture slave to the Boltons."

He did his part. He should left instead of skulking about and constantly reminding people why they hate him. If he leaves "Well, Baelish sucks, but he did save our ass.... why do we hate him so much?" Instead he spends his time trying to.... marry Sansa maybe?

POSSIBLE EXPLANATION:

I mean, I could buy Littlefinger is actually fucked up he got Sansa all kinds of raped and tortured. Maybe that's what did him in. It became all about protecting her in his fucked up way at any cost. As part of this, he ignored the possibilities such as her holding a mean grudge. But something, besides moments before his death, needed to be there. And something besides the cliche "he loved me in his own sick way" as well. Because his begging came off as more lies from a desperate man who was struggling to stay atop a collapsing pile of lies and murder.

But it's really hard, with what we've seen onscreen since season 1, to believe that Baelish totally loses sight of the goal for one tall red-head. No matter who or what she is. Especially since everything up to that point is played near solely for "moves Baelish up the ladder" for the viewer.

[TheFeniX]

Ghetto edit: thinking about it, they COULD have handled that during his death scene with a few changes. Ensure the entirety of his focus remains on Sansa the entire time. He doesn't rush around the room in (what I assume) is an obvious play at "trapped rat" desperate to get anyone to help him. No, he "claws" in Sansa's direction the entire time even up until his death because she's all that matters. Hell, they even have "3-Eyed-Plot Exposition Ex Machina" there just to give a "he has been trying to help you this entire time" or whatever for the audience members who don't get it.

And Sansa orders his death anyway.

But sans that, as it's a stretch, I have a hard time believing Littlefinger would back himself deeper and deeper into a corner after selling Sansa to the men who murdered a whole shitload of her family at various points in the series and raped her over the course of months (I don't even know how long) while mentality and physically torturing her in other ways at the same time. Especially since he's the one who helped start the whole fucking thing by setting up Ned for the executioners block.

He survived so long in the presence of murderous people such as Cersei because they had nothing against him personally, he never really screwed them (at least not hard enough to be noticed), and he was incredibly useful to them.

In Winterfell, he's surrounded by people who tend to hate him, that he has personally screwed (murdered) over multiple times, and is not all that useful to since he's just keeping Little Robin's seat warm. Not a single person backs him at his "trial." That could be bad writing or it could be he's THAT universally reviled and has done nothing to get leverage on these people. The second is pretty terrible writing either way for a person like Littlefinger. He would have to know he's in such a shit spot, it's a rather large portion of his characterization to know these things.

"GTFO. GTFO NOW" is what his brain had to be screaming at him from day one after the battle of the Bastards. But nope, we got a cliched (yet relatively enjoyable) scene of "badguy gets comeuppance." Sidenote: and Jamie gets to join the "good guys" because he's popular with the GoTs audience. I'm honestly not complaining too much. Jamies and Cersei playing off each other has become incredibly stale and I DO like his character.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Knights of the Vale being disloyal to the guy who got command of them under suspiscious circumstances two years ago doesn't require really any buildup.

If littlefinger's trial had happened right after he tossed Lyssa Arryn through the Moon Gate, then yes, that'd be believable in how brief it was. But as it is, he's been HMFIC for the Vale for two years now. So you do need some buildup.

The thing that struck me in the North is that Balish didn't demand trial by combat. Is that not a thing in the North? Did he (probably rightly) figure that he wouldn't be able to take whoever Sansa put forward as her champion, and that no one else liked him enough to risk dying to save his skin? Or did he just assume he could talk his way out of it until it was too late?

But really, what strikes me about the whole thing (and what I love about it) is that it finally tore down the façade of Littlefinger as this smug master manipulator and showed what a pathetic person he really is. He plunged seven kingdoms into brutal, bloody, and needless war while the apocalypse is coming (granted, he didn't know that last bit to begin with), all (or at least largely) because he couldn't get over the fact that the Starks got Caitlyn. He's always acting like he's so clever, playing everyone else. Until, inevitably, he plots himself into a corner he can't talk his way out of. Seeing him futilely trying to make excuses and being completely ignored was rather satisfying.

If I have one quibble about the manner of his death, its that Sansa, not Arya, should have been the one to kill him personally. What was it Ned said? "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword"? That would have been a nice touch.

[FireNexus]

The old ways are sort of gender-specific. You wouldn't expect a lady to have to kill a man in medieval times. Arya was doing it more for pleasure than business.

[The Romulan Republic]

Fair enough.

The not asking for trial by combat bit still puzzles me a little, though.

[SCRawl]

Fair enough.

The not asking for trial by combat bit still puzzles me a little, though.

You answered your own question there. Baelish had no one in the world who would act as his champion, and couldn't hope to prevail if fighting for his own cause.

[The Romulan Republic]

I guess that works.

And it plays into what I liked so much about the scene- that it deconstructs the supposedly brilliant schemer and shows how pathetic he ultimately is. All his plots get him in the end is a bloody death, with not one friend to speak on his behalf or mourn his passing.