New Vehicles TLJ Official Info *Spoilers*

[Ave Dominus Nox]

The walker is just stupid. I don't now how anyone could reasonably justify that. The ship, while ugly as sin, well... the idea of a dedicated siege ship meant to pummel down planetary shields is not bad. They could have created a better looking ship though, maybe something with a co-axial superlaser that could maybe double as a sniper in fleet engagements. However if they literally designed it to bomb un-shielded planets, yeah that's incredibly dumb, an Imperial or Resurgent class is much better choice.

[Galvatron]

I'm not sure if Lucasfilm can find anyone that has a director with a sense of good art director like George Lucas. They are focusing on hiring directors that are more focused on script-writing and actor-direction, but they aren't really hiring directors known for their art direction and visual sense.

How about Joe Johnston? He personally designed many of the iconic OT designs and now he's a full-fledged director.

[ray245]

I'm not sure if Lucasfilm can find anyone that has a director with a sense of good art director like George Lucas. They are focusing on hiring directors that are more focused on script-writing and actor-direction, but they aren't really hiring directors known for their art direction and visual sense.

How about Joe Johnston? He personally designed many of the iconic OT designs and now he's a full-fledged director.

Yeah, but that is only part of the process. We know that Lucas tends to give his artists chances to design as many things as possible, and chose the design he like best.

Just because you design for Lucas doesn't mean you share the exact sensibility. I mean even Ralph Macquarie have his artwork rejected and subjected to further modification.

[Q99]

Mm.... Star Wars tech has always kinda been designed on rule-of-cool (or sometimes just odd), so I can't find myself objecting too hard. Better they experiment than just continue to ape the old stuff, give the new era more of it's own look.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, I suppose. And as already noted in this thread, the idea of a dedicated planetary bombardment ship is not a bad one, in and of itself.

[Galvatron]

Just because you design for Lucas doesn't mean you share the exact sensibility.

Johnston did just fine without Lucas on the original Battlestar Galactica. I'd trust him to design and/or select the new vehicles for any new Star Wars movies over the team who gave us the prequel designs (including Lucas).

[eMeM]

If you thought it can't possibly get worse after that, meet the SDSD Freudian Nightmare, a 60km long Mega-class Star Destroyer!

[NecronLord]

Dear lord.

I wonder if they mean wingspan at least.

[fractalsponge1]

If you thought it can't possibly get worse after that, meet the SDSD Freudian Nightmare, a 60km long Mega-class Star Destroyer!

Is this for REAL?!

[eMeM]

There is also a new Mon Cala ship but apparently noone decided to choose it (or unlock it, I don't know how this app works) and I haven't found any pictures or details yet, except for the name (pretty cool tie-in) and a small, pixelated picture, which reminds me of the EU Viscount:

[Khaat]

Fan made comparison (may or may not accurately reflect dimensions):

Supremacy Comparison [Credit: IveFallenNICantGetUp/Reddit]

The Supremacy is the central command headquarters for the First Order's fleet, serving dual purpose as a massively scaled battleship. This colossal ship not only carries Stormtroopers into battle, it also harbors ships and can build and fix ships on board.

http://moviepilot.com/p/star-wars-snoke ... di/4363316
Which has been read by some to suggest the notches in the trailing edge of the top of the Supremacy are actually Star Destroyer repair bays. Good for toys, bad for movies (unless this is all the First Order have left after everything they lost on Starkiller Base.)

[Elheru Aran]

Well, to be fair, if they had the capability to gut an entire planet... building a 60km Star Destroyer wouldn't have been THAT hard by comparison, and might have been one place they put all that excess material to use.

[Khaat]

Oh, I don't take (much) issue with building at colossal scale in SW in general, just the thematic concern that the Resistance was "undercover supported by", as was the First Order. For proxies, one seems to have gotten a great deal more than the other, so why the ruse? The Resistance reflects limited support (a "fleet" of maybe 2 dozen x-wings?), while the First Order is rolling with... what? the industrial base of the entire Imperial Remnant?

It might make sense if "the gloves are off" in TLJ and the New Republic is back at war with the Imperial Remnant, but then the "professional soldiers" of the Remnant would step in front of the First Order kiddies (if nothing else, by numbers). I would expect a flood of new faces on the Imperial side, and a bit of infighting between Remnant and First Order personalities.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, the scale of the organizations is just... lolnope.

Unless we're going to see like, the REAL Resistance fleet showing up in TLJ, and it turns out the X-wings from TFA were just used because they were the most immediately ready force, or there were other concerns preventing the fleet from intervening at Starkiller Base. Some such bullshit. "The Fleet was hiding in the mass shadow of [Xplanet] on the other side of the galaxy and we had to move fast before the FO blew up our base" whatever. You can't just literally recycle the plot of ANH and hope it works.

And then the First Order. Unless they're bankrolled by like... Kuat or something like that... I don't see how the hell they're doing this and getting away with it. "Oh, that 60km ship is, uhh, a luxury space station. Yeah, Supreme Leader Snoke needs a extra-large spa, couple nice restaurants, massage parlor with a happy ending. We'll recoup the cost by selling tickets for deluxe cruises around the Moons of Nibia. Totally." Come on. A resurgent neo-Imperial movement builds a ship the size of a literal fleet and nobody cares? (that we know of so far) That'd be like Stormfront building a replica of the Bismarck or something.

A better way to play it would have been to not paint the FO as a separate faction from the Remnant, instead make them a section of it, some internal division, perhaps the military wing of it or whatever. That would explain all the manpower and munitions. Having them be their own little thing in some corner of the galaxy just doesn't really work. The Resistance is easier to buy than that, at least as a small force independent of the Republic being its proxy in a galactic cold war that's turning hot, but acting like the First Order isn't a proxy doesn't make sense to me.

(if this is somewhat incoherent, I haven't been drinking enough coffee today)

[Khaat]

If TFA were "rise of Nazi Germany, post WWI (we weren't really paying attention in history class)" and the opening scroll was... off (I hate to say "lying"), and the First Order were (literally) the Nazi party taking control of the Imperial Remnant (somehow no one noticed), maybe.

It looks like the cold war just turned hot (from the trailer), but the prime New Republic fleet was destroyed with Planet of the Fashion Models, so second-string/out-of-mothballs NR fleet or NR member-fleets to feed the kitty? The line of barrel-nosed frigates or escorts or whatever are not premium warships, certainly not against something like this new mega-eggs-in-one-basket ship.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, the scale of the organizations is just... lolnope.

Scale in Star Wars has always been a matter of much inconsistency and debate, has it not? I don't think TFA is really at fault here, at least to the extent some people claim, or out of step with what came before.

Unless we're going to see like, the REAL Resistance fleet showing up in TLJ, and it turns out the X-wings from TFA were just used because they were the most immediately ready force, or there were other concerns preventing the fleet from intervening at Starkiller Base. Some such bullshit. "The Fleet was hiding in the mass shadow of [Xplanet] on the other side of the galaxy and we had to move fast before the FO blew up our base" whatever. You can't just literally recycle the plot of ANH and hope it works.

The Resistance is not the military of a galactic or even major system government. It is, as I understand it, essentially a covert vigilante/guerilla group, being funded under the table because the NR doesn't want to fight the First Order for whatever reason (though I imagine whatever's left of the NR will have changed their tune now- at least I certainly hope so).

And then the First Order. Unless they're bankrolled by like... Kuat or something like that... I don't see how the hell they're doing this and getting away with it. "Oh, that 60km ship is, uhh, a luxury space station. Yeah, Supreme Leader Snoke needs a extra-large spa, couple nice restaurants, massage parlor with a happy ending. We'll recoup the cost by selling tickets for deluxe cruises around the Moons of Nibia. Totally." Come on. A resurgent neo-Imperial movement builds a ship the size of a literal fleet and nobody cares? (that we know of so far) That'd be like Stormfront building a replica of the Bismarck or something.

No, it would be like if Nazi exiles/Neo-Nazis managed a coup of a third world country and began a military build-up. The First Order is clearly more than just a radical domestic political group, even a stronger one than Stormfront.

Hell, not to drag this into a real world political debate, you can argue (with slight hyperbole) that Neo-Nazis backed by a major power (Russia) managed a (bloodless) partial coup of the US government last November, so TFA seems almost prescient now, if that's what they're going for.

And it seems a bit odd to complain on the one hand that the Resistance is too small, and then turn around and complain that the First Order is too big. Especially considering that one is a small covert force and the other is a genuine military power.

I mean... for a galactic civilization, a 60 km ship isn't that huge an expenditure, or it shouldn't be.

Also, its pretty clear that the galaxy isn't all that united after the Empire fell (which is plausible), so it makes sense that their would be breakaway states, even highly aggressive ones, that no one can effectively reign in.

A better way to play it would have been to not paint the FO as a separate faction from the Remnant, instead make them a section of it, some internal division, perhaps the military wing of it or whatever. That would explain all the manpower and munitions. Having them be their own little thing in some corner of the galaxy just doesn't really work. The Resistance is easier to buy than that, at least as a small force independent of the Republic being its proxy in a galactic cold war that's turning hot, but acting like the First Order isn't a proxy doesn't make sense to me.

(if this is somewhat incoherent, I haven't been drinking enough coffee today.

Is their even a Remnant of any note at this point? Their was no reference to one in TFA, which suggests that at best, its a fairly minor player.

[ray245]

Why do I feel like the fanboys have taken over the art department? Reusing Ralph Macquarrie art, bigger Death Stars, bigger Star destroyers. This is like a bunch of teenage boys running the art department in Star Wars.

[The Romulan Republic]

Why shouldn't their military tech. be getting more powerful over time? Technological stasis, or near-stasis, in Star Wars is more an EU thing (because lack of creativity/milking nostalgia) rather than a film thing (the films take place over a period of about forty years prior to TFA, and show a clear progressive of military build-up as the war continues, with new and more powerful weapons being invented and deployed. And even if the basic tech. stays more or less the same, I'd expect some change in its applications, refinement and specialization for optimal military use, as the warfare continues and tactical and strategic situations change.

Edit: Granted, "more powerful" doesn't necessarily have to mean "bigger". But greater size could allow greater durability and power generation, greater troop/fighter carrying capacity, etc. And the Starkiller Base is an interesting development from the Death Star, sort of the next logical step- to find a way to not only enlarge the station (probably on a budget, by digging it into a planet rather than constructing the whole sphere from scratch), but to allow it to fire across interstellar distances.

[ray245]

Why shouldn't their military tech. be getting more powerful over time? Technological stasis, or near-stasis, in Star Wars is more an EU thing (because lack of creativity/milking nostalgia) rather than a film thing (the films take place over a period of about forty years prior to TFA, and show a clear progressive of military build-up as the war continues, with new and more powerful weapons being invented and deployed. And even if the basic tech. stays more or less the same, I'd expect some change in its applications, refinement and specialization for optimal military use, as the warfare continues and tactical and strategic situations change.

Edit: Granted, "more powerful" doesn't necessarily have to mean "bigger". But greater size could allow greater durability and power generation, greater troop/fighter carrying capacity, etc. And the Starkiller Base is an interesting development from the Death Star, sort of the next logical step- to find a way to not only enlarge the station (probably on a budget, by digging it into a planet rather than constructing the whole sphere from scratch), but to allow it to fire across interstellar distances.

Because a smaller organisation that is somehow able to muster the resources to build such project on an even bigger scale will require the heroes to be idiots.

At least the old EU is still smart enough to make the empire's superweapons as smaller than the Death Star, and new SSD not as crazy as the new 60km warship.

[Galvatron]

The only problem I have with the Supremacy is that they're actually calling it a "star destroyer."

As for the First Order, the new EU seems to indicate that they're based mainly in the Unknown Regions with minor spheres of influence in charted galactic space.

[Mange]

The only problem I have with the Supremacy is that they're actually calling it a "star destroyer."

As for the First Order, the new EU seems to indicate that they're based mainly in the Unknown Regions with minor spheres of influence in charted galactic space.

And Mega-class. It's the Super-class debacle all over again.

[The Romulan Republic]

Why shouldn't their military tech. be getting more powerful over time? Technological stasis, or near-stasis, in Star Wars is more an EU thing (because lack of creativity/milking nostalgia) rather than a film thing (the films take place over a period of about forty years prior to TFA, and show a clear progressive of military build-up as the war continues, with new and more powerful weapons being invented and deployed. And even if the basic tech. stays more or less the same, I'd expect some change in its applications, refinement and specialization for optimal military use, as the warfare continues and tactical and strategic situations change.

Edit: Granted, "more powerful" doesn't necessarily have to mean "bigger". But greater size could allow greater durability and power generation, greater troop/fighter carrying capacity, etc. And the Starkiller Base is an interesting development from the Death Star, sort of the next logical step- to find a way to not only enlarge the station (probably on a budget, by digging it into a planet rather than constructing the whole sphere from scratch), but to allow it to fire across interstellar distances.

Because a smaller organisation that is somehow able to muster the resources to build such project on an even bigger scale will require the heroes to be idiots.

At least the old EU is still smart enough to make the empire's superweapons as smaller than the Death Star, and new SSD not as crazy as the new 60km warship.

It potentially works out if the First Order has far fewer ships, but individually more powerful ones. Remember, their strategic situation is fundamentally different from the Empire's.

The Empire had to patrol and maintain order across an entire galaxy, but had no real outside or peer opponents. Thousands of smaller multi-purpose ships (ISDs) and a few larger ships as command ships or to punch through the planetary shields of a rebellious world suites their needs.

The First Order controls only a fraction of the galaxy, and has a potential enemy in the New Republic which controls major amounts of territory and warships. A strategic deterrent against attack (until they're ready to launch a crippling surprise strike with it) and ships that can win a major capital ship engagement are likely a necessity to them.

I won't attempt to defend "Mega class" though.

The only problem I have with the Supremacy is that they're actually calling it a "star destroyer."

As for the First Order, the new EU seems to indicate that they're based mainly in the Unknown Regions with minor spheres of influence in charted galactic space.

Well, I find the entire concept of the "Unknown Regions" highly questionable in Star Wars, as I've said before.

As to calling it a star destroyer...

Internet fan-theories (and maybe some EU stuff) aside, its pretty clear that "star destroyer" as used in the films does not mean "destroyer" as in the naval designation. And frankly, why would it? The notion that real-world maritime naval designations would be applicable to interstellar warships is highly questionable, to put it mildly.

"Star destroyer" is basically a catch-all term for "large, usually dagger-shaped multipurpose warship".

Hell, the Clone Wars series explicitly referred to Venators as cruisers, and RotJ (specifically Ackbar, I believe) refers to the Executor as a super star destroyer in on-screen dialog.

[Eternal_Freedom]

IF it's a one-off mega-ultra ship, does it really need a class name?

I mean, the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) is almost never referred to as an "Enterprise-class carrier" it's just "the Enterprise."

Or HMS Dreadnought. Or HMS Victory. Or USS Constitution. Etc.

[KraytKing]

No, it would be like if Nazi exiles/Neo-Nazis managed a coup of a third world country and began a military build-up. The First Order is clearly more than just a radical domestic political group, even a stronger one than Stormfront.

Hell, not to drag this into a real world political debate, you can argue (with slight hyperbole) that Neo-Nazis backed by a major power (Russia) managed a (bloodless) partial coup of the US government last November, so TFA seems almost prescient now, if that's what they're going for.

And it seems a bit odd to complain on the one hand that the Resistance is too small, and then turn around and complain that the First Order is too big. Especially considering that one is a small covert force and the other is a genuine military power.

I mean... for a galactic civilization, a 60 km ship isn't that huge an expenditure, or it shouldn't be.

This is more like Neo-Nazis seizing a third-world country, then building a Ford, complete with railguns, lasers, and fighter jets capable of reaching space. The Empire couldn't build bigger than a Death Star with a whole galaxy of resources. Why should this little upstart, with vastly fewer resources, be able to do so? How can they also afford to bankroll a fleet headed by THAT behemoth? They should have no money! They should not be a threat to a god damn galactic power! The only hope they had was to blow away the New Republic capital and force a surrender. Their god weapon is gone. They should be on the back foot for another thirty years until they scrape up the cash for a few more Star Destroyers.

On scale, it doesn't matter what science says. In Star Wars, a SSD eight kilometers long is a major expenditure for a galactic civilization of seventy million inhabited worlds. The Supremacy ruins the atmosphere. And, as someone else said, more advanced does not mean bigger. No one can doubt that the B-36 was bigger than the B-52. Which is more advanced? Our firearms have shrunk for centuries, everything in the recent decades has focused on miniaturization. A better way to show technological advances would be in turbolaser technology (which they have, in the wrong direction), shielding, hyperdrives, and starfighters. Not size.

[ray245]

It potentially works out if the First Order has far fewer ships, but individually more powerful ones. Remember, their strategic situation is fundamentally different from the Empire's.

The Empire had to patrol and maintain order across an entire galaxy, but had no real outside or peer opponents. Thousands of smaller multi-purpose ships (ISDs) and a few larger ships as command ships or to punch through the planetary shields of a rebellious world suites their needs.

The First Order controls only a fraction of the galaxy, and has a potential enemy in the New Republic which controls major amounts of territory and warships. A strategic deterrent against attack (until they're ready to launch a crippling surprise strike with it) and ships that can win a major capital ship engagement are likely a necessity to them.

I won't attempt to defend "Mega class" though.

The resources required to build a single Mega class would have allowed the FO to build hundreds of normal Stardestroyers. That's like saying nazi remnants in South America managed to build a 1-kilometer long Supercarrier without anyone noticing.

Also, I am reminded of this: