Game of Thrones season seven trailer.

[TheFeniX]

I guess that works.

And it plays into what I liked so much about the scene- that it deconstructs the supposedly brilliant schemer and shows how pathetic he ultimately is. All his plots get him in the end is a bloody death, with not one friend to speak on his behalf or mourn his passing.

How is it a deconstruction when it's so by the book for fiction? It literally plays out like the end of multiple "High School Movies" where the "conniving bitch" gets her comeuppance in front of the entire school, clique', random drunk high school party crowd. It's just the "backstabbing" in this instance is a lot more literal.

[The Romulan Republic]

Maybe deconstruction is the wrong word.

Its just nice to see the smug twit finally taken down, especially when he seems to have so many fan boys on-line (wish fulfillment for assholes?).

[Elfdart]

Indeed - if I had to guess, I'd say that they didn't have horses because a: shooting horse riding is more expensive and they didn't want to deal with the logisitcal and expense issues horses create and b: it would interfere with their various dialog scenes-while walking they wanted to do (which I enjoyed).

And all of this could've been fixed in a writers room, because its like nobody brainstormed and poked holes in the abject stupidity of this plan prior to finalising the general plot outline or the script.

Like - have some dialog about "no horses?" and say something like:

1. We'll be too noticeable mounted high up on horses;
2. There's a shortage of horses at Eastwatch so we're only bringing one in case we have to ride back and send for help;

or whatever.

Heck, a competent plan would've set up camps behind them as they went, with messengers on horseback waiting, so they could quickly get messages to Eastwatch.

But none of that is done, and it makes the entire premise of the episode and its finale catastrophically stupid.

You're probably right. Iceland has these little ponies and having several burly dudes (like the Hound) riding them would be great comedy -not something for an Urgent Quest To Save The World. A throwaway line like "I wish we'd brought horses" and maybe the Brothers saying they rode like mad and their mounts are played out.

Ah well. Previous seasons had several writers but this season has only Benioff & Weiss. That's more than a coincidence.

Fair enough.

The not asking for trial by combat bit still puzzles me a little, though.

You answered your own question there. Baelish had no one in the world who would act as his champion, and couldn't hope to prevail if fighting for his own cause.

More importantly, like Ned Stark he confessed -forfeiting the right to trial by combat. Ned did it to save his daughters, the Pimp did it to save himself from Ned's daughters.

At first I thought Jon's stupidity was contagious and Sansa and Arya were afflicted. When they replayed the previous episodes earlier last weekend, my opinion flipped. Sansa is smart enough to know Jon is a dumbass (she even says he can't afford to be stupid like Ned and Robb) and when she met with Arya and Bran to discuss the knife, the Pimp, and share happy memories, they would have had to be lobotomized to fall for Littlefinger's bullshit and turn on each other. Arya's conspicuous display of her fighting skill; her obvious shadowing of the Pimp and his "agent" (the servant), her not-so-stealthy intrusion into his room, her leaving an open bag of faces in easy view for anyone who might enter the room and arguing with Sansa in a way that any eavesdropper could hear with a little effort were pretty telling. Sansa showing a look of alarm at Arya's fighting skill, telling LF she's genuinely scared, sending Brienne away and her biggest giveaway, sending the same fumbledick guards who lost Arya five episodes earlier to bring her to the main hall (like those clowns could have made her go anywhere she didn't want to go!).

But the biggest giveaway of all that the Stark girls were setting up Littlefinger is the maester in the black robes. Apparently, this guy is 110% loyal to whoever is lord of the castle at that particular time. He started for Roose Bolton, but when Ramsay killed him, he sent the ravens, spreading that psycho's bullshit story. He also led Roose's wife to the kennels so Gordon Ramsay Snow's dogs could kill her and her infant son. This guy is blindly obedient to the person in charge, so it's odd that he would bring a raven scroll that makes Sansa look bad right to Littlefinger's room unless she told him to do so. Looking back at Jon's election as King of the North, the alarmed look on Sansa's face as she turns to Littlefinger could very well be disappointment that she can't kill the Pimp because while she might be up for destroying him, Jon is too fucking stupid. Which explains why she waited so long: Jon would have never agreed to killing an "ally" who saved him, and certainly not by subterfuge. So they had to wait until Jon was gone. This might apply to Brienne as well.

The rest of the episode seemed like checking items off a list, except when the Forrest Gump of Westeros decided he couldn't lie to Cersei even though HE thinks the most important thing is the coming war with the Deadites. We had several friends over to watch and only two of us (myself and one of my girlfriend's co-workers) didn't flip the fuck out. Yes, Jon went Full Retard even by Stark standards, but come on folks:

THERE WAS NO FUCKING WAY CERSEI WAS GOING TO HELP THEM!

Jon's stupidity combined with Jamie's waxing/waning conscience might very well have saved them, provided Jamie manages to tell Danerys that Euron is picking up 20,000 troops and Team Dany can do something about it. I'm thinking Theon and Yara will try to stop their uncle's fleet. What would be funny is if they somehow commandeered the fleet (again) and used it to drop the Golden Company at Eastwatch, right behind the Deadites. They'll have no choice but to fight their way south and instead of Cersei having this trump card in her pocket for dealing with the winner, it will be all used up fighting for Team Dany whether they realize it or not.

[Elfdart]

Maybe deconstruction is the wrong word.

Its just nice to see the smug twit finally taken down, especially when he seems to have so many fan boys on-line (wish fulfillment for assholes?).

I would have preferred Sansa feeding him to the dogs like she did Ramsay, but humiliating him in front of all those people then cutting his throat like pig was satisfying enough.

[SpottedKitty]

The old ways are sort of gender-specific. You wouldn't expect a lady to have to kill a man in medieval times. Arya was doing it more for pleasure than business.

I dunno, looking at the conversation between Arya and Sansa later on the battlements, I saw it as she was doing it for business; family business. And, being Starks, the three of them dealt with the situation as a family.

Not that Arya was going to let that stop herself enjoying it, though...

[TheFeniX]

The rest of the episode seemed like checking items off a list, except when the Forrest Gump of Westeros decided he couldn't lie to Cersei even though HE thinks the most important thing is the coming war with the Deadites. We had several friends over to watch and only two of us (myself and one of my girlfriend's co-workers) didn't flip the fuck out. Yes, Jon went Full Retard even by Stark standards, but come on folks:

THERE WAS NO FUCKING WAY CERSEI WAS GOING TO HELP THEM!

I laughed when Ceresei chastised Jamie with her tired lined about "blah blah blah, I learned from father" and once again her master stroke is so fucking childish in it's simplicity: "ok, so I'll give a big speech about going, then I JUST WON'T GO! BRILLIANT!"

Though for some reason, Tyrion buys it. He buys that she's going North while pregnant (for just one reason) after one conversation. After her show at the official meeting. Also of note, she's so bad at this since she didn't have to kill Jamie, but letting him go is moronic for multiple reasons. But hey, at least the audience gets more Jamie. Like I said, I can't complain too much.

EDIT: She doesn't even offer up Elaria or Yara as another good show of faith after Yuron's bullshit. Hell, Elaria doesn't even get a mention. These ARE Targaryan POWs. Danny is remiss to not bring them up. Oh well, moving on. Next Scene.

Maybe deconstruction is the wrong word.
Its just nice to see the smug twit finally taken down, especially when he seems to have so many fan boys on-line (wish fulfillment for assholes?).

I didn't feel much. Same way with Ramsey. They dragged it out too long and relied on whimsey to just kind of magic the story where it needed to be. I'm honestly getting a bit tired (though like I said, this is still some of the best stuff on TV right now) of the writers giving me what I want at the expense of the story and/or characterization.

I remember the first huge cockblock I can recall. Jamie and Ned square-off. After episodes of verbal jousting, the tourny king is about to fight the grizzled war vet. It's ON! OH man, kick his ass 006. Aw yea.. this is fucking awesom.....aaaaaand, Random Lannister guy with a spear to the calf. I was like "aw.. COME ON!" I was both infuriated and couldn't stop laughing at the same time because it's just the kind of shit this show pulled because audience wish fulfillment always seemed last on Martin's mind.

And not just that, but Ned, Rob (both of them), and many other characters are dead mostly do to their own characterization doing them in. Their deaths make 100% complete sense in context even as some characters walked themselves into Death's embrace.

Meanwhile, Littlefinger is dead because he forgot he was Littlefinger and got way to comfortable in a house where he helped stock the tombs with bodies. And like, the motherfucking MICROSECOND Bran said "Chaos is a ladder," Littlefinger should have jumped on the first available horse and got the Hell out of dodge. It's this giant red flag that screams: "You are not in your element. The GoTs rules no longer apply here. We are now in a Standard LOTR fantasy setting. Guys like you 'get what's coming to them' in these types of worlds. FLY YOU FOOL."

[Guardsman Bass]

Tyrion's like Jon. They just keep on failing over and over again, but the story needs them to be competent and have Daenerys' ear (and bed in the case of the latter), so they're treated as such.

[Vympel]

You're probably right. Iceland has these little ponies and having several burly dudes (like the Hound) riding them would be great comedy -not something for an Urgent Quest To Save The World. A throwaway line like "I wish we'd brought horses" and maybe the Brothers saying they rode like mad and their mounts are played out.

Ah well. Previous seasons had several writers but this season has only Benioff & Weiss. That's more than a coincidence.

Yeah - Bryan Cogman did an episode too, he always does at least one, as did Dave Hill. The rest were D&D, and I reckon they probably controlled a lot of the overall plot of the eps the other guys did too.

But the biggest giveaway of all that the Stark girls were setting up Littlefinger is the maester in the black robes. Apparently, this guy is 110% loyal to whoever is lord of the castle at that particular time. He started for Roose Bolton, but when Ramsay killed him, he sent the ravens, spreading that psycho's bullshit story. He also led Roose's wife to the kennels so Gordon Ramsay Snow's dogs could kill her and her infant son. This guy is blindly obedient to the person in charge, so it's odd that he would bring a raven scroll that makes Sansa look bad right to Littlefinger's room unless she told him to do so. Looking back at Jon's election as King of the North, the alarmed look on Sansa's face as she turns to Littlefinger could very well be disappointment that she can't kill the Pimp because while she might be up for destroying him, Jon is too fucking stupid. Which explains why she waited so long: Jon would have never agreed to killing an "ally" who saved him, and certainly not by subterfuge. So they had to wait until Jon was gone. This might apply to Brienne as well.

This is actually a book plot point (and referenced in the show back in Season 2 between Maester Luwin and Theon) - the Citadel assigns Maestersigned to strongholds, not families. So if you're the Maester of Winterfell, you serve the lord of Winterfell, whoever that is at the time.

My thoughts re the episode (which I forgot to post):

Ok that episode was pretty fucking cool.

- They doubled the size of the Golden Company to 20,000 men. And they actually mentioned the elephants!
- Who's Cersei going to target with them (plus the Lannister forces left)?
- Yes, the Wall fell due to their stupid ass plan and now the Night King got a dragon, but in exchange we got Jaime abandoning Cersei - for a reason that's better than the reason he abandoned her in the books. Who saw that coming? Also, sellsword-dress Jaime (with Widow's Wail) going North. Another piece of Ice returns.
- Aegon? Should've been Jaehaerys. But then him and Dany would've had matching names.

- Tyrion and Cersei together again was an excellent scene I didn't know I needed.

- Jon and Theon: fuck they knocked it out of the park. Also, Theon's scene - didn't know I needed that either, but I sure did.

- Fuck you Littlefinger. Ahem:

The thing with Arya and Sansa may have been manipulative (last episode especially so) but I see why they did it that way. First of all, because writing is hard and characters in conflict = drama. Coming up with something Sansa can do in Winterfell alone is pretty difficult. But they deftly handled Bran, and in a way that makes sense narratively. Put simply, having a scene where Bran tells Arya and Sansa all of Littlefinger's crimes would be really boring, tell the audience something they know already, and would just create the impression in the audience that Arya and Sansa should kill him right away.

Instead, Bran got them up to speed off screen and Arya and Sansa set it up so Littlefinger is outed as a traitor and murderer in front of Lord Royce, and by creating the expectation that it was actually Arya on the chopping block, ensured Littlefinger couldn't say - run off with Lord Royce before it all went down.

It's not perfect by any means, but it works.

- I really hope we actually see Jon and Daenaerys riding through the North and being seen by people. It sounds cool.

- No, of course they didn't kill Tormund and Beric off screen.

- Where's Gendry, anyway?

- They should've made Rhaegar look a little bit more differnet from Viserys. I mean - he even had Viserys' falchion-type sword from Season 1. Same clothes too.

[Lord Revan]

Isn't Rhaegar a full blood Brother to Viserys and Daenerys? If he should look a lot like them. Also aren't all of the 3 officially known House Targaryen children products of brother/sister incest, if so then the House specific features should be even more prominent.

[Ralin]

Another thing I think people are missing is that to insist on rights like trial by combat you have to have, oh, a functioning society that hasn't been ripped apart by multiple civil wars and that is probably teetering on the edge of starvation and collapse even without the zombie horde. Sansa didn't care about any rights Littlefinger might have had, and neither did anyone else present. Lysa didn't care about Tyrion's rights either, but she had to deal with the fact that she'd face punishment by the king and potential mutiny from her own retainers.

Littlefinger didn't have that going for him. No one, absolutely no one, was going to stick their neck out for him.

[TheFeniX]

Yea, any claims of this being "official" are kind of out the window when the "Trial" (read: farce) ends when a teenage girl slits the throat of the accused in the middle of a "courtroom." Poetic justice, I guess, as Littlefinger is downed by his own knife. But even as haphazard as the execution of Slynt was, Jon still had him dragged outside and beheaded, which I assume is the official form of execution in Westeros.

Unless you happen to have dragons.

Sansa is obviously a fan of the Cardassian justice system as the whole thing was for the benefit of everyone but the accused (including the audience).

[The Romulan Republic]

Also: I really liked Jaime walking out on Cersei, and to me it feels like the character coming full-circle in a way. It has a nice symmetry to it as well- he lost his "honour" by doing the right thing and killing Aerys, and in a way, I feel, he's regained it, at least in part, by turning on Cersei to honour her false truce.

Say what you will about Jaime (and there are a lot of very unpleasant things that you could say about him)- he's an adulterer, incestuous, a rapist, a traitor, a murderer, shoved a little boy out of a tower...

He's always had one redeeming quality, which is that he's the man who, when millions of lives are on the line, put those lives over loyalty to the Crown. The man who will tell a mad king (or a mad queen) "no".

Jaime's two finest moments are definitely stabbing Aerys, and walking out on Cersei.

I really hope Jon and Danny have the sense to look past family enmity and put Jaime in a command position against the White Walkers as well. Because, let's face it, from what I've seen neither of them strike me as brilliant tacticians. Jon got goaded (understandably, but still) into charging recklessly into a trap by Ramsey Bolton, and would have gotten his whole army slaughtered for nothing (leaving the North wide open) without Sansa and Littlefinger's reinforcements. He had to be bailed out of his own battle by fucking Littlefinger. And Danny's approach to warfare seems to be little more than "kill it with fire"- she's reliant on her dragons. They both have a rather blunt approach to warfare, if these examples are anything to go by.

Contrast that to Jaime when his troops were surprised by Danaerys: He was able to quickly organize a defence, then when hit with something he couldn't possibly be prepared for (dragon fire), he came up with not one but two tactics to counter it on the fly. He lost, sure... but he very nearly won the war (if Danaerys's dragon had not recovered from Bronn's ballista shot), and he did as well as anyone could have hoped to under the circumstances.

He also managed to outmaneuver Tyrion on the strategic scale earlier in the season.

He just needs someone to reign in his tendency towards risking himself with suicidal individual heroics, which as Bronn pointed out is not really the job of a commander.

[Elfdart]

I'm disappointed Bronn didn't go with him.

[FaxModem1]

I'm disappointed Bronn didn't go with him.

I think it was necessary for Bronn to stick with Cersei. Currently with recurring characters on Cersei's side are Qyburn, the FrankenMountain and Bronn. If Bronn leaves, that only leaves a giant mute, and a mad scientist who has always been rather submissive to Cersei with her wishes. Having Bronn around at least gives the possibility for banter, and for an alternate perspective regarding what to do regarding military actions.

[Iroscato]

I'm disappointed Bronn didn't go with him.

I think it was necessary for Bronn to stick with Cersei. Currently with recurring characters on Cersei's side are Qyburn, the FrankenMountain and Bronn. If Bronn leaves, that only leaves a giant mute, and a mad scientist who has always been rather submissive to Cersei with her wishes. Having Bronn around at least gives the possibility for banter, and for an alternate perspective regarding what to do regarding military actions.

Not if the current situation between Jerome Flynn and Lena Headey continues IE not being able to be in the same room as each other due to previous bad blood.

[Simon_Jester]

Yea, any claims of this being "official" are kind of out the window when the "Trial" (read: farce) ends when a teenage girl slits the throat of the accused in the middle of a "courtroom." Poetic justice, I guess, as Littlefinger is downed by his own knife. But even as haphazard as the execution of Slynt was, Jon still had him dragged outside and beheaded, which I assume is the official form of execution in Westeros.

Unless you happen to have dragons.

Sansa is obviously a fan of the Cardassian justice system as the whole thing was for the benefit of everyone but the accused (including the audience).

Medieval justice was a bit screwy like that. It was on the whole before the invention of things like 'constitutions.' Often, how many rights and protections you had basically boiled down to custom, the number of people loyal to you, and the quality of your reputation, both the hereditary component and the personal component.

Littlefinger has few or no loyalists, a very poor reputation, low hereditary standing, and he's living in a society whose customs have been turned inside out and upside down by multiple overlapping and interlocking civil wars.

A show trial is about the best he can expect, if he falls into the hands of a member of the high nobility who thinks he ought to be dead, in the company of many members of the middle and low nobility who agree or support her on general principles.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hadn't heard that story about Cersei and Bronn's actors. What happened to make them hate each other?

Anyway, I don't really criticize Jon and Tyrion for trying to make peace with Cersei. It was a long shot, but I wouldn't want to leave an enemy at my back while fighting the Walkers either. It was a risk, but losing a dragon to the Walkers was an unforeseen and in my opinion unforeseeable consequence, and if Cersei had betrayed them at the meeting, they'd have lost a few not strictly essential leaders (I'm assuming that Danny with dragons would have likely been fine), and Danaerys had enough firepower (literally) with her to end Cersei's reign right their.

As it is, aside from the unexpected disaster North of the Wall, they lost nothing by talking to her but a little time, and gained Jaime Lanister (and a rift between him and Cersei). Otherwise, the result is exactly the same as if they'd never met with her at all- they still have an enemy at their back. Though actually, it might be a little bit better- Cersei won't help, but won't be wanting to actively fight them either if I understand her plan- certainly if she has any sanity left she'll try to avoid doing anything big enough to make Danaerys divert one of her dragons back down South for a few days. Given how weakened her throne is, and how little support she likely has outside of the Lannisters and their troops, I can't see her doing much more than further fortifying King's Landing and reclaiming Casterly Rock. And honestly, letting Cersei have the entire kingdom South of the Neck would be a small price to pay for stopping the White Walkers.

Although, I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the guy holding back their demonstration zombie and been a little slower or weaker, or the chain had broken, and the wight had torn Cersei apart right their in the meeting.

[Khaat]

Hadn't heard that story about Cersei and Bronn's actors. What happened to make them hate each other?

Bad IRL breakup. "The two allegedly dated very briefly back in 2002 and the break-up was messy."
http://hollywoodlife.com/2017/08/30/got ... ome-flynn/

[The Romulan Republic]

Actually, you know what?

On second thought, I'm going to say that if not for the unfortunate loss of a dragon, Jon and Tyrion would have come out ahead on their plan to talk to Cersei, simply on the basis of it successfully driving a wedge between her and her chief ally/Lt. (Jaime), and transferring Jaime's services, at least temporarily, to their cause.

It may not have been the intent, but damned if it isn't a nice consolation prize.

[TheFeniX]

Littlefinger has few or no loyalists, a very poor reputation, low hereditary standing, and he's living in a society whose customs have been turned inside out and upside down by multiple overlapping and interlocking civil wars.

And he continues to hang around given the situation to try and play an incredibly dangerous game, going all-in on it with no contingencies. I mean, this is the guy who "Chaos is a ladder" is a sticking point, then starts walking into walls during crunch-time.

Honestly, I didn't have much of a point when I made that post. But it kind of turns into one considering the end-result: there's no "wiggle-room" in Winterfell. The moment Sansa wanted Littlefinger dead: he's dead with zero consequences. I'm sure he had contingencies even for Cersei in this regard. He's essentially got deuce high, it's being constantly thrown in his face how little he has, people keep showing up to the table showing monster hands (Dragons, Unsullied, 3-eyed Ravens, White Walkers), and even the smaller hands what with Jon taking charge, Arya, Cersei, and others.

He shows his duece high and is like "oh shit, that's what I was holding onto?" It's just such a shitty culmination of the character. This wasn't someone cut-off midstream or ambushed out of fucking nowhere. He didn't make one small misstep. He didn't just.... get rando-murdered like Barriston (which was still stupid the Queen's Bodyguard didn't immediately go back to guard that body when the riot started). He wasn't stabbed for the coin in his pockets.

He fucking WALKED into this situation, stayed, and died, all while ignoring all the characterization that was built up for him over 7 seasons. And, cheap-shot, if he had been more popular or a "good guy" Little Robin would have burst in at the last moment, but now he's all built and heroic, and been like "I will stand for Baelish!" And then shenanigans.

Because that's just kind of how this show goes about it now.

[The Romulan Republic]

Actually... that's kind of what I like about it. Because I don't see Littlefinger, primarily, as this brilliant schemer. He's ultimately a pathetic man, who destroys thousands or millions of lives for the sake of his selfishness and grudges, while acting like his cynicism and sociopathy makes him smarter than everyone else. Oh, he can plot... but because he's not as clever as he thinks he is, he eventually schemes himself into a corner, and can't scheme his way out.

Was it contrived? I don't know, maybe. There are parts of the show I've missed, so I can't say for sure. But it worked, for me at least.

[TheFeniX]

Littlefinger went from a nobody, smacked around by a Stark, to Regent Lord (that the right term?) of the Vale. This is accomplished near solely based on his shrewdness at manipulation by giving the right people want they want, while "taking his cut in the process," and also making sure dividends are paid out when needed. The list of shit he pulled on pretty much anyone who had access to 10,000 times over the resources to wipe him and his name from history is staggering.

His biggest downfall seems to be banking on Sansa at all since this cost him any future ties to Cersei.

He didn't even scheme himself into a corner. What he's doing is just insanity. For a single example: Sansa gets a Raven that Jon has pledged to Danny. So, "Hey, let's get Sansa to oust Jon" which leaves out that Jon's new woman has an army of Dothraki, Unsullied, and 2-3 Dragons. Jon himself has already called on the Wildlings to save his ass before, so he has them. The Lords might back Sansa, but back Sansa with Littlefinger at her side?

What's the play here? There is no play, the writers just wanted Littlefinger to continue playing cards while the casino burns down around him.

Even if he got what he wanted: Sansa is in his pocket, Arya is jailed, Jon is ousted. What his end-goal? Him and Sansa being together forever as either walking or non-walking corpses? He doesn't even have the advantage of being a Stark (or liked at all), so Jon/whoever would take no mercy on him like he would Sansa. His play was dumb, the entire setup was dumb and tired.

Like I said, audience gratification was it's only real purpose. That and to tie up another loose thread to get to the "real plot" of the next expansion: Wrath of the Lich King.

[Simon_Jester]

I do hope G. R. R. Martin actually ends the book series, because I'd like to see what he has in mind for Littlefinger. I understand your frustration.

The problem, I guess, is whether you see Littlefinger as an amazingly clever operator, or as just an average operator with a gift for the well-timed backstab. Littlefinger's rise to power in the Vale came from a combination of leveraging old connections. Namely that he was the former lover of Lysa Tully, who he only slept with in the first place because he couldn't score with her sister, and that Lysa was literally demented and lacked the sanity and common sense to realize what a horrible idea it was to keep him around. Then he managed a well timed backstab of Lysa, set up someone else to take the fall, and managed to run the place for a while. So... yeah, great I guess?

But he would never have pulled that off the way he did if not for a unique situational advantage, namely being Lysa Tully's childhood flame. So I'm not sure we can say that Littlefinger demonstrates genius because of it.

My honest feeling is that Littlefinger is like a shark. He's very well adapted to his preferred environment and deadly within it, but not deadly outside of it. If a shark fights a wolf, the outcome depends entirely on whether the fight takes place in the water or on land. In King's Landing and in the Vale, they were in the metaphorical ocean; at Winterfall they were on land. The question you seem to be asking is, "why was Littlefinger so foolish as to 'beach' himself in the first place?"

Do I have that right?

[The Romulan Republic]

That sounds about right to me.

Littlefinger went from a nobody, smacked around by a Stark, to Regent Lord (that the right term?) of the Vale. This is accomplished near solely based on his shrewdness at manipulation by giving the right people want they want, while "taking his cut in the process," and also making sure dividends are paid out when needed. The list of shit he pulled on pretty much anyone who had access to 10,000 times over the resources to wipe him and his name from history is staggering.

His biggest downfall seems to be banking on Sansa at all since this cost him any future ties to Cersei.

He didn't even scheme himself into a corner. What he's doing is just insanity. For a single example: Sansa gets a Raven that Jon has pledged to Danny. So, "Hey, let's get Sansa to oust Jon" which leaves out that Jon's new woman has an army of Dothraki, Unsullied, and 2-3 Dragons. Jon himself has already called on the Wildlings to save his ass before, so he has them. The Lords might back Sansa, but back Sansa with Littlefinger at her side?

What's the play here? There is no play, the writers just wanted Littlefinger to continue playing cards while the casino burns down around him.

Even if he got what he wanted: Sansa is in his pocket, Arya is jailed, Jon is ousted. What his end-goal? Him and Sansa being together forever as either walking or non-walking corpses? He doesn't even have the advantage of being a Stark (or liked at all), so Jon/whoever would take no mercy on him like he would Sansa. His play was dumb, the entire setup was dumb and tired.

Like I said, audience gratification was it's only real purpose. That and to tie up another loose thread to get to the "real plot" of the next expansion: Wrath of the Lich King.

Its not that hard for me to buy Littlfinger's obsession with Sansa blinding him. Given that it can be taken as just a continuation of his obsession with Caitlyn, which is pretty much the motive for a lot of what he did.

Stupid, yes. But implausibly stupid?

Yes, he managed to climb the ladder pretty well until he went North. But that doesn't mean that he's never going to make a mistake.

To use a real-life comparison:

Donald Trump managed to con his way into the Presidency of the most powerful nation on Earth. Does that make him a genius on such a level that he never does anything irrationally self-destructive?

[TheFeniX]

But he would never have pulled that off the way he did if not for a unique situational advantage, namely being Lysa Tully's childhood flame. So I'm not sure we can say that Littlefinger demonstrates genius because of it.

Isn't that part of being clever? Of manipulation? Honest Question: to me, knowing when you can and can't leverage personal/emotional investment is a key skill to have. Not all manipulation is murder or bribery.

My honest feeling is that Littlefinger is like a shark. He's very well adapted to his preferred environment and deadly within it, but not deadly outside of it. If a shark fights a wolf, the outcome depends entirely on whether the fight takes place in the water or on land. In King's Landing and in the Vale, they were in the metaphorical ocean; at Winterfall they were on land. The question you seem to be asking is, "why was Littlefinger so foolish as to 'beach' himself in the first place?"

This is pretty much on point. He's completely out of his element, he has other avenues to pursue to take stock and reevaluate. I swear someone made the comment about "Why is Littlefinger still hanging around?" but I could be wrong. And it's such a good question.

If he was physically or logistically "stuck" there and had to "flop around on land" I'd shut my dumb mouth right now. But he's not.

Go South to "shore up against a Lannister attack" or "Prepare the second/third/whatever line of defense" and GTFO. He isn't even in a position to take the North from the Wolves. He ain't Liam Neeson. Much less Dragons and White Walkers.

Its not that hard for me to buy Littlfinger's obsession with Sansa blinding him. Given that it can be taken as just a continuation of his obsession with Caitlyn, which is pretty much the motive for a lot of what he did.

So, why did he sell her to the Boltons? And a fucking bastard given a name by Lord Bolton. A man he knows little about, but their sigil is a fucking FLAYED MAN! Oh yea, and they murdered the shit out of most of her family, Roose personally delivering the killing blow to Rob.

And how much did he really love Caitlyn? He sold her daughter to the men that helped slit her throat.

He did that because it benefitted him at the time. He might care for Sansa, Hell he might care for a LOT of people, but Littlefinger's rise to the top is always at the front of his mind and being dead puts a stopper on that. Even loved pawns are just pawns and any notions later on that he truly cares for Sansa come off as more lies. I would need a lot more than him just saying it to Sansa to believe it. Like, even something stupid such as him talking in private to Cait's statue in the Tomb about "Imma changin' muh ways. I love yer daughter!"

Anything else is just more manipulative lies, such as trying to put Sansa in charge. How does that really benefit her? How does that keep her safe? It's just another schism in an already wrecked family which makes them weaker. He has to know Jon would NEVER harm her, Arya is a wild-card. But Jon? Trying to oust him puts Sansa in danger. Even (though not really) from Arya as "she would side with Jon." So, I can't even buy that he was blinded by love because his actions still don't add up.

But that doesn't mean that he's never going to make a mistake.

True, but my point was never that he couldn't make a mistake. It's that just continuing to BE AROUND Winterfell is a huge mistake and he is CONSTANTLY reminded of this and.... continues to try and seduce Sansa. Once again, SINGLE EXAMPLE of many: Jon basically threatens to kill him before heading South. THAT GUY then comes back after bending the knee to a woman with an overwhelming military force that is now marching/sailing back North.

We're way past "mistake" here. He's literally poking a dragon.

Donald Trump managed to con his way into the Presidency of the most powerful nation on Earth. Does that make him a genius on such a level that he never does anything irrationally self-destructive?

Conversely, why did Democrats ignore all the signs that they weren't in the position they thought they were? But they at least had a "hugbox" of affirmation. Worst case: 50+% of the country supported Clinton. Littlefinger's case? Everyone. Fucking. Hates. Him. No one would, or did, shed a single tear when he died. Little Robin is possibly the only person in Westeros who would mourn his loss. Which is why he should have stayed near HIM as he would be much easier to manipulate than Sansa who is surrounded by Tarth, Jon, Arya, Bran, fuck man, just a whole lot of EVERYONE.

But no, it's not impossible Baelish made such a huge error, but based on his character and the time-frame involved? It's REALLY hard to swallow.

NOTE: My caps are mostly for my own emphasis, not to brow-beat you or anything. The more I think about the situation, the more holes I can poke in it.