Game of Thrones season seven trailer.

[The Romulan Republic]

So, why did he sell her to the Boltons? And a fucking bastard given a name by Lord Bolton. A man he knows little about, but their sigil is a fucking FLAYED MAN! Oh yea, and they murdered the shit out of most of her family, Roose personally delivering the killing blow to Rob.

And how much did he really love Caitlyn? He sold her daughter to the men that helped slit her throat.

He did that because it benefitted him at the time. He might care for Sansa, Hell he might care for a LOT of people, but Littlefinger's rise to the top is always at the front of his mind and being dead puts a stopper on that. Even loved pawns are just pawns and any notions later on that he truly cares for Sansa come off as more lies. I would need a lot more than him just saying it to Sansa to believe it. Like, even something stupid such as him talking in private to Cait's statue in the Tomb about "Imma changin' muh ways. I love yer daughter!"

Note, I said "obsession with", not "love for". Those are two very different things.

Anything else is just more manipulative lies, such as trying to put Sansa in charge. How does that really benefit her? How does that keep her safe? It's just another schism in an already wrecked family which makes them weaker. He has to know Jon would NEVER harm her, Arya is a wild-card. But Jon? Trying to oust him puts Sansa in danger. Even (though not really) from Arya as "she would side with Jon." So, I can't even buy that he was blinded by love because his actions still don't add up.

If he thinks Sansa is still under his influence, then absolutely trying to put her in charge (rather than Jon) is a selfish move, and one that makes sense for him.

Like I said, obsession, not love. My sense of him is that his vision was him ruling everything with Sansa (as a stand-in for Caitlyn) at his side, and all the other Starks dead. Because he's a pathetic, entitled little shit who never got over the fact that the Starks got Caityln instead of him. Maybe that's not all their is to him, but that's a big part of it.

True, but my point was never that he couldn't make a mistake. It's that just continuing to BE AROUND Winterfell is a huge mistake and he is CONSTANTLY reminded of this and.... continues to try and seduce Sansa. Once again, SINGLE EXAMPLE of many: Jon basically threatens to kill him before heading South. THAT GUY then comes back after bending the knee to a woman with an overwhelming military force that is now marching/sailing back North.

We're way past "mistake" here. He's literally poking a dragon.

I get what you're saying, but, while I don't know if this fits Littlefinger specifically, its not uncommon for people who've had a few successes to get an inflated sense of their own cleverness. Or, when they're fixated on a goal and seem close to achieving it, to become stubborn, get tunnel-vision, and insist on "staying the course" long past the point where its really wise to do so.

You see this shit in politics all the time. I could point to possible examples of it on literally every major side of the last Presidential election, for example.

Conversely, why did Democrats ignore all the signs that they weren't in the position they thought they were? But they at least had a "hugbox" of affirmation. Worst case: 50+% of the country supported Clinton. Littlefinger's case? Everyone. Fucking. Hates. Him. No one would, or did, shed a single tear when he died. Little Robin is possibly the only person in Westeros who would mourn his loss. Which is why he should have stayed near HIM as he would be much easier to manipulate than Sansa who is surrounded by Tarth, Jon, Arya, Bran, fuck man, just a whole lot of EVERYONE.

But no, it's not impossible Baelish made such a huge error, but based on his character and the time-frame involved? It's REALLY hard to swallow.

NOTE: My caps are mostly for my own emphasis, not to brow-beat you or anything. The more I think about the situation, the more holes I can poke in it.

Again, I can see why it might reasonably seem implausible to you based on everything you've just described, but I can also make a strong case for it going the other way.

[TheFeniX]

If he thinks Sansa is still under his influence, then absolutely trying to put her in charge (rather than Jon) is a selfish move, and one that makes sense for him.

Like I said, obsession, not love. My sense of him is that his vision was him ruling everything with Sansa (as a stand-in for Caitlyn) at his side, and all the other Starks dead. Because he's a pathetic, entitled little shit who never got over the fact that the Starks got Caityln instead of him. Maybe that's not all their is to him, but that's a big part of it.

Ok, sorry. I picked up on the wrong things. But even with obsession being the key factor, his plan still makes no sense. He's been "obsessed" with the Iron Throne for years and he's killed to try and get closer (Joffrey for one) and the amount of actors and their own motivations outnumbered what he's seeing in Winterfell by leagues.

But what it really boils down to is Littlefinger is in no position to make a move, but he does so anyways. So many new actors are breaking into the scene, even if he pulls off his masterstroke of "Oust Jon, rule Winterfell behind the scenes with Sansa," he's fucked. Like, an 8th grader could see the problems with his plan.

"Chaos is a Ladder" but there's really no chaos right now. It's coming all on it's own, but it's not here yet. All the actors are going to culminate at Ground Zero (Winterfell) where Baelish is. He's trying to create chaos and the creation would bite him in the ass as pissing off Jon (ergo: Danny) is a straight trip to the chopping block. If the walkers hit in the middle, he loses everything anyways.

Did he all the sudden forget his advice to "bide time to make a move?" Yes, but it's not played like that. It's played as if he's still being clever.

I get what you're saying, but, while I don't know if this fits Littlefinger specifically, its not uncommon for people who've had a few successes to get an inflated sense of their own cleverness. Or, when they're fixated on a goal and seem close to achieving it, to become stubborn, get tunnel-vision, and insist on "staying the course" long past the point where its really wise to do so.

Yes, when they're dealing with problems within their context. Even ignoring Dragons, Unsullied, Dothraki, White Walkers, etc: Baelish has zero contingencies. His hold is incredibly tenuous. He's at the point where people are overtly threatening his death. He's dealt with this before, but he actually had "outs" in those instances. He was completely in his element in King's Landing. Even in the Vale, no one but Little Robin likes him and it's clear only his marriage to the now dead Lysa is the only reason he's tolerated. Oh, and Little Robin threatening to Moon Door dissenters.

He's got nothing here. And he's so far from his goal he WOULD have to be clinically insane to think otherwise. He's thousands of miles from King's Landing and there's a whole other Queen playing the game and she has dragons. He's looking at "long game" no matter what. Moving quickly should be last on his list. Even Cersei has the right idea here: "Let the big guns duke it out and make your move then."

You see this shit in politics all the time. I could point to possible examples of it on literally every major side of the last Presidential election, for example.

If you lose an election in the U.S., no one slits your throat. Your entire house of cards doesn't collapse around you. You've (hopefully) got a support system to get you into other areas or make another bid (or both).

You have contingencies. Or you've been propped up your whole life, so you being a dumbass is understandable. No one ever propped up Littlefinger. That says a lot. You think a dumbass like Trump would be anywhere without his daddy's money and last name? No. No one would do shit for some noname, but they'll give "Trump" all the seed money he wants. Same way GW failed his way into job after job by being "Son of the president."

Again, I can see why it might reasonably seem implausible to you based on everything you've just described, but I can also make a strong case for it going the other way.

You've got a fair point, but "obsession leading to downfall" doesn't fit Baelish for me. At least in this particular instance. And even if I bought it, it isn't played that way. It's played to the audience that Sansa "finally learned and outwitted him." But nothing actually adds up to that conclusion other than: "we wrote Littlefinger as a moron for a season so we could get a happy ending."

She beat a world-class Poker-player at "Go Fish" because someone roofied his drink. That's what I took out of it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Maybe rushed to tie up a plot thread then. Good idea poorly executed due to limited time and excess plot threads?

But I can see him getting stupid from a combination of obsession, perhaps impatience, and overestimating the hold he had on Sansa.

Edit: I also wouldn't call Petyr Baelish a world-class poker player. That requires having a good poker face. I may be biased due to having behind the scenes knowledge/audience perspective, but while he may know how to keep secrets, I find that the sense of smugness, cynicism, and general perviness just rolls off of him. He screams "don't trust me", even if he can keep the particulars of his plots quiet.

[Simon_Jester]

Edit: I also wouldn't call Petyr Baelish a world-class poker player. That requires having a good poker face. I may be biased due to having behind the scenes knowledge/audience perspective, but while he may know how to keep secrets, I find that the sense of smugness, cynicism, and general perviness just rolls off of him. He screams "don't trust me", even if he can keep the particulars of his plots quiet.

You could say a lot of the same about, for example, Ted Cruz- just the first example I thought of, of a powerful politician with a reputation for being oily, obnoxious, disagreeable, or conspicuously untrustworthy in some way.

For some reason, sleaze works on a lot of people, enough that some can ride into power on waves of it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah. I'd point at the most obvious example: the Orange One himself. His whole life and persona just screams crass, bullying, duplicitous sleaze. But millions of people saw that as "telling it like it is" or "anti-establishment" or just (as John Oliver put it) "Donald being Donald".

Now, that's not really Littlefinger. But yeah, you can absolutely turn sleaze into an effective persona, if you do it with enough confidence and absolutely no shame. As I've said before, its like... bullshit dialed up to such a degree that it circles 'round and becomes a perverse form of credibility.

[TheFeniX]

Maybe rushed to tie up a plot thread then. Good idea poorly executed due to limited time and excess plot threads?

I don't even think it was that good of an idea. They played it up like they beat Baelish at his own game. They didn't. Sansa and Co while obviously justified in what they did basically just flipped the chess board over and said "I WIN BITCH! Also wizards."

This part is pure opinion: The only person who could possibly beat Baelish at his game would have been Tywin Lannister. A shame they never even shared a scene together IIRC.

But I can see him getting stupid from a combination of obsession, perhaps impatience, and overestimating the hold he had on Sansa.

I could as well. And it would make more sense, but that's not what I feel I was shown on the screen nor what was the writer's intention. I actually SHOULD go back and watch the "Behind the Scene" bullshit for that part, even though those are mostly just self-masturbatory for whoever narrates them. That said, the actors who do some narration don't do this.

Edit: I also wouldn't call Petyr Baelish a world-class poker player. That requires having a good poker face.

As Simon beat me to the punch: Hehe, no it doesn't actually. Daniel Negreanu has, as said by him and others, possibly the worst poker face in the business and he does exceptionally well by it. And there's a reason (a REALLY good scene, which is what we get now: greats scenes loosely tied together like a clip show) why Petyr analyses everyone else: what they have, why they have it, what they want/might do with it. Because you know what you have, what you are: you need to know your opponents and what they have and what they might do with it.

That said, in the "sport" of murder and bribery, you don't need a pokerface when you have dirt on everyone.

I may be biased due to having behind the scenes knowledge/audience perspective, but while he may know how to keep secrets, I find that the sense of smugness, cynicism, and general perviness just rolls off of him. He screams "don't trust me", even if he can keep the particulars of his plots quiet.

Look at his results. He's pretty much the primary mover behind the whole series. The only person who has anything "on" him is Sansa and honestly (under normal circumstances) she would be in a shit spot to spill the beans about Lysa's death since she said nothing about the true nature of her Aunt's death for years. Not that it mattered, but the only person who called him out for being the man behind Ned Stark's death was a literal wizard. Talk about being out of your element, how do you plan for that? A fucking wizard magics up the "evidence."

EDIT: I got off ranting, my point is that Baelish helped do all this shit and completely change the face of Westeros and no one has a fucking clue he was involved in most of it. Without Bran, this might not even make it into the history books. That's what I call RESULTS![/edit]

Think about that for a second. Imagine Baelish has to go through a more modern justice system, or even one while Ned Stark still has his head. I doubt "magic" would be all that admissible, it's really just Brann's word. His description of what happened to Ned only matter to Baelish as he's the only one who could corroborate it. The one witness against him in the death of Lysa would burn alongside him. He's actually in a pretty solid spot. We, the audience, know what a huge murdering shitbag he is, people in GoTs just suspect it. They "know" it. Look at Al Capone.

This is my problem with the scene: it's about playing to the audience. It's there solely for OUR benefit. It's a pay-off. A "you go girl" moment. NOTE: in this context, I am actually not referring to the gender of Sansa or Arya, but more to that scene the director/writer wanted you to "pump you fist" at. I don't mind those at all

in something that isn't Game of Thrones.

[FaxModem1]

For all that Littlefinger wouldn't do something stupid and suddenly shanked bullshit:



Littlefinger gets cocky sometimes, and it's only by chance that he's survived this far.

[TheFeniX]

For all that Littlefinger wouldn't do something stupid and suddenly shanked bullshit:

True. Littlefinger likely thought he was in a position where he could respond to Cersei in kind (though while surrounded by armed guards, this comes off as stupidly brazen) and for some reason didn't think Cersei was impulsive enough to actually have him killed. Maybe she was bluffing, maybe not. But even if all Cersei had to do was give a lie about why she had him killed, she'd still assumingly have to come up with something. And this assumes Baelish didn't have more concrete dirt on Cersei and still expected it to fly.

This is a bit different than "continues to hang around a place where everyone hates him, more than a few want him dead, and no questions would be asked if he ended up dead." I also could completely buy (as I think I've stated before) Baelish doing something impulsive to get himself killed. Anyone can do that, but to continue taking a bath while the water comes to a slow boil? Or to just LET the water rise over his head?

Littlefinger gets cocky sometimes, and it's only by chance that he's survived this far.

Same could be said for a lot of GoT characters.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, as I said before, its important for characters, particularly ones who are exceptionally popular and/or capable, to get cut down to size from time to time. If they never make mistakes and always win, they start to come off as wish fulfillment/author's pets.

Of course, if you have them screw up and survive too many times, the same thing can happen. But we don't need to worry about that with Littlefinger any more.

[TheFeniX]

Well, as I said before, its important for characters, particularly ones who are exceptionally popular and/or capable, to get cut down to size from time to time. If they never make mistakes and always win, they start to come off as wish fulfillment/author's pets.

I hadn't thought about that even though the writing around Ramsey was "he's a wizard" levels of absurd. And he's dead only because of Baelish-ex-machina. That's a good point: perfect characters are generally boring. Everyone needs to take at least a few licks to be taken seriously.

I'm not in any way saying Baelish was or should have been portrayed as a perfect mastermind. I could even buy some long-term plans turning into complete shit as the situation changed or he misread it. But what was provided to me by the writers just does not fit any motivation I can come up for him because the reality is so readily apparent. It's like "he died because he didn't see or hear the freight train coming right at him."

Like I said, the idea that separating Jon - Sansa benefits him in any way or moves him toward either her bed and/or the Iron Throne is insanity.

It forces the hand of multple actors, some of whom he knows little about, all of whom hate his fucking guts, and when the shit hits the fan Sansa would come out generally clean and Baelish is going to eat all the shit. Jon might be all hot for Danny, but I could never believe Jon would allow even her to hurt Sansa. Baelish seems to know this based on dialog and even if he was wrong: if EVERYONE in the North sided with Sansa/Baelish, the Dothraki and Unsullied could stomp the North with Jon in tow, not even accounting for the dragons.

Best case: Littlefinger get executed or flees.
Worst case: same thing, but Sansa dies/flees with him.

And I see no evidence based on action or dialog that Baelish has "lost his shit." The writers seem to be playing at "the player got outplayed." And this is not exactly high-level manipulator stuff. This is extremely evident information. So I have to go with "bad writing is bad."

He'd be much better off setting up something like a marriage between Sansa and Little Robin and convincing Jon to let her come South for "protection" while he's free to try and mind-fuck her more. Tarth is put in a tough spot here as she has to choose between Arya and Sansa (though she know Sansa obviously is in more need of protection than Arya). Brianne can be "easily" neutralized while in the Vale. His loudest opponents in his house can be left North as "we'll need experienced soldiers in the war against the undead." Make contingencies if they survive the war against the undead. Jon is a fighter, he's likely to die as well. Danny could lose a lot of troops/dragons. Strengthen his emotional hold on Little Robin.

This buys him one thing he's good with: time. Time to take stock of the new players and the damage they do. Time to then check the remnants for weaknesses and try to drive wedges where he can. Time to (possibly) even worm his way back into Cersei's good graces. In the meantime, he has an army untouched by the Walkers and he could plan to (once again) save the day, dispose of Little Robin, try to take control of the whole North, and just say "I'm marrying Sansa, do something about it."

I doubt it would WORK OUT in the end, but it's a much better plan and IMHO much more suited to someone like Baelish.

Alternatively, I would have been cool with the second Arya became aware of Baelish's plan, she just murdered his ass. Or even the second she found out Baelish was responsible for selling Sansa to the Boltons. Or because she just hadn't killed anyone in a while.

[Lord Revan]

The way I saw it is that Littlefinger became the one thing a chessmaster like him should not ever become if they want to remain successful. He became complacent. He thought Sansa was still the naive easily manipulated little girl from season 1 and most likely thought that obessesion masking itself as love was 2 sided. I wouldn't surprice me at all if Littlefinger thought the Northren lords were stupid hicks he could easily manipulate as well.

In essense he was a shark who didn't realize he had beached himself as he though such a thing wouldn't be possible due to his success getting to his head.

It's not that he stubbordly played the game he knew he would loose but rather he had became so arrogant over the years, that he though he could play the game regardless of the rules chaning. The idea of him loosing had become unthinkble to him.

In many ways he's similar to Cercei both are way out of their depth because they thought they were much smarter then they actually were and that others were a lot less intelligent then they actually were.

TL:DR. It wasn't that Littlefinger suddenly grabbed an idiot ball for no apparent reason but rather Littlefinger had thought of people as nothing more then tools for his own end that he forgot that people are capable of independent thought.

[Elfdart]

I laughed when Ceresei chastised Jamie with her tired lined about "blah blah blah, I learned from father" and once again her master stroke is so fucking childish in it's simplicity: "ok, so I'll give a big speech about going, then I JUST WON'T GO! BRILLIANT!"

Though for some reason, Tyrion buys it. He buys that she's going North while pregnant (for just one reason) after one conversation. After her show at the official meeting. Also of note, she's so bad at this since she didn't have to kill Jamie, but letting him go is moronic for multiple reasons. But hey, at least the audience gets more Jamie. Like I said, I can't complain too much.

EDIT: She doesn't even offer up Elaria or Yara as another good show of faith after Yuron's bullshit. Hell, Elaria doesn't even get a mention. These ARE Targaryan POWs. Danny is remiss to not bring them up. Oh well, moving on. Next Scene.

She had about as much standing to ask about Elaria, Yara or Tyene as Cersei had asking about the Tarleys.

Maybe deconstruction is the wrong word.
Its just nice to see the smug twit finally taken down, especially when he seems to have so many fan boys on-line (wish fulfillment for assholes?).

I didn't feel much. Same way with Ramsey. They dragged it out too long and relied on whimsey to just kind of magic the story where it needed to be. I'm honestly getting a bit tired (though like I said, this is still some of the best stuff on TV right now) of the writers giving me what I want at the expense of the story and/or characterization.

I remember the first huge cockblock I can recall. Jamie and Ned square-off. After episodes of verbal jousting, the tourny king is about to fight the grizzled war vet. It's ON! OH man, kick his ass 006. Aw yea.. this is fucking awesom.....aaaaaand, Random Lannister guy with a spear to the calf. I was like "aw.. COME ON!" I was both infuriated and couldn't stop laughing at the same time because it's just the kind of shit this show pulled because audience wish fulfillment always seemed last on Martin's mind.

Which, more than anything else (yes, even more than the blood, beheadings, tits and dragons) is the reason I tune in every Sunday night. Fuck fan "expectations". I really don't want the Clegane brothers to duel, simply because the internet can't shut the fuck up about "Clegane Bowl".

And not just that, but Ned, Rob (both of them), and many other characters are dead mostly do to their own characterization doing them in. Their deaths make 100% complete sense in context even as some characters walked themselves into Death's embrace.

Meanwhile, Littlefinger is dead because he forgot he was Littlefinger and got way to comfortable in a house where he helped stock the tombs with bodies. And like, the motherfucking MICROSECOND Bran said "Chaos is a ladder," Littlefinger should have jumped on the first available horse and got the Hell out of dodge. It's this giant red flag that screams: "You are not in your element. The GoTs rules no longer apply here. We are now in a Standard LOTR fantasy setting. Guys like you 'get what's coming to them' in these types of worlds. FLY YOU FOOL."

He probably couldn't go back to Moon Door Palace. It would only be a matter of time before word got back to Robin that LF killed his mom. He wouldn't be welcome anywhere else either.

Actually, you know what?

On second thought, I'm going to say that if not for the unfortunate loss of a dragon, Jon and Tyrion would have come out ahead on their plan to talk to Cersei, simply on the basis of it successfully driving a wedge between her and her chief ally/Lt. (Jaime), and transferring Jaime's services, at least temporarily, to their cause.

Were it not for one mishap, I'm sure Mrs Lincoln would have had a swell time at Ford's Theater.

It may not have been the intent, but damned if it isn't a nice consolation prize.

Tyrion hatched this moronic plan, and like his other moronic plans, it kept Cersei in the game when she would already be dead if anyone with half a brain had planned Team Dany's campaign. They had lost so much (Viserion, Dorne, Highgarden) because of his fatuous schemes that he almost had to go begging his sister to reconsider. He inadvertently drove a wedge between Jamie and Cersei? Big fucking deal -I mean, how many men does he have? His only value is to race north and warn Team Dany about the 20,000 mercenaries (plus elephants!) that are about to get ferried over*. Or maybe he can scrape together a few Lannister troops who might be loyal to him personally or maybe even free Edmure Tully and his men to go fight in the north -if any are left. Other than that, I don't see him as being any great addition, though his Valyrian steel sword should come in handy against the Deadites.

*Looking at the map, Braavos isn't very far from White Harbor.

What's the play here? There is no play, the writers just wanted Littlefinger to continue playing cards while the casino burns down around him.

Even if he got what he wanted: Sansa is in his pocket, Arya is jailed, Jon is ousted. What his end-goal? Him and Sansa being together forever as either walking or non-walking corpses? He doesn't even have the advantage of being a Stark (or liked at all), so Jon/whoever would take no mercy on him like he would Sansa. His play was dumb, the entire setup was dumb and tired.

Like I said, audience gratification was it's only real purpose. That and to tie up another loose thread to get to the "real plot" of the next expansion: Wrath of the Lich King.

It could just be a matter of Littlefinger scheming for the sake of scheming because that's really all he has left. Or maybe he was playing a longer game where he sends Sansa's head to Cersei and gets back in the queen's favor, but every time he turns around there's a new Stark coming home. Whether he's looking to betray Sansa to Cersei or marry her and unite the North and the Eyrie, having three long lost siblings turn up makes that impossible -so he has to get rid of them. I also suspect that he didn't take the Deadites seriously or he thought they might be a way to pressure Sansa into marrying him.

For all that Littlefinger wouldn't do something stupid and suddenly shanked bullshit:



Littlefinger gets cocky sometimes, and it's only by chance that he's survived this far.

Here he is trying to put the move on Catelyn after he helped kill her husband:



He's like a serial rapist or serial killer -a serial plotter. He keeps pushing people's buttons, trying to stir up shit even when he knows (or should know) that at some point he'll get caught. He got away with it for so long that maybe he just couldn't help himself.

[MKSheppard]

I realized a day or so ago, WHY Sansa sent Brienne down South to act in her stead.

It was to get rid of the Paladin Knight -- either way, kill Ayra or Littlefinger -- Brienne would have intervened as honor demanded, and forced them to do it the "correct" way.

Also, she would have acted as Littlefinger's champion in a Trial By Combat if he'd asked for one. So,....

With her away, either can be disposed of after a perfunctory accusation.

[The Romulan Republic]

Were it not for one mishap, I'm sure Mrs Lincoln would have had a swell time at Ford's Theater.

Well, sure, but there was also presumably no way to predict that Lincoln would get shot in Ford's theatre. Would you argue that the Lincolns were incompetent because they went to Ford's theatre and Abe ended up getting shot?

My point is that I don't think Tyrion and Jon had an awful plan- they needed to get the dumb asses down south who'd never seen a wight to take things seriously, had no way of knowing or anticipating that things would play out the way they did with a dragon getting killed and resurrected to burn down the wall, and they partially managed to accomplish their goal. Everyone important knows the dead are coming, Cersei will if not help them at least probably hold off on attacking them much, and they got Jaime to come help them instead of her. The only thing that went catastrophically wrong, as far as I know, is something that they couldn't have anticipated.

Tyrion hatched this moronic plan, and like his other moronic plans, it kept Cersei in the game when she would already be dead if anyone with half a brain had planned Team Dany's campaign. They had lost so much (Viserion, Dorne, Highgarden) because of his fatuous schemes that he almost had to go begging his sister to reconsider. He inadvertently drove a wedge between Jamie and Cersei? Big fucking deal -I mean, how many men does he have? His only value is to race north and warn Team Dany about the 20,000 mercenaries (plus elephants!) that are about to get ferried over*. Or maybe he can scrape together a few Lannister troops who might be loyal to him personally or maybe even free Edmure Tully and his men to go fight in the north -if any are left. Other than that, I don't see him as being any great addition, though his Valyrian steel sword should come in handy against the Deadites.

*Looking at the map, Braavos isn't very far from White Harbor.

Trying to wrap up the war down South, at least temporarily, without killing any more people or destroying any more supplies they can use against the White Walkers is not a bad idea. Convincing Cersei might have been a long shot, but worth at least a token attempt, especially when they can actually prove to her that the army of the dead is real.

As I said, there was no way that they could anticipate that they would lose Viserion. Likewise, I like Jaime outmaneuvering Tyrion at Highgarden- Tyrion is smart, but Jaime's the one who's been leading men in battle since he was a teenager. It doesn't show that Tyrion is incompetent to me- his plan to take Casterly Rock was fine. It just shows that he's not as good at planning a military campaign as someone more experienced in that particular field.

Having a good plan, and having that plan thwarted by a) a better plan or b) an event you could not reasonably have anticipated does not make you incompetent.

Would you rather Tyrion was a complete "Mary Sue" (Christ I hate that term) who always won and outsmarted everybody?

I also think you're underselling the advantage of getting Jaime away from Cersei. Sure, he's just one man, but:

-As you said, Valyrian steel sword, in the hand of a man who's quite good at using it. Who wants to bet Jaime gets a White Walker kill next season?

-Jaime is a skilled commander. She may have Euron at sea, but does Cersei have any other comparably capable high-ranking commander on land? That command ability will now be aiding, rather than opposing them.

-Jaime will, as you noted, also have a great deal of knowledge of Cersei's plans, if he chooses to share it. Like, a few passes from Drogon, and the mercenary army on which Cersei has pinned all her hopes will be at the bottom of the sea.

Its like if, oh, Rommel had defected to the allies during WWII. That is a gain that can't be measured by a simple head count.

[SCRawl]

I'm going to nitpick your analysis of the benefits of having Jaime along a little, TRR.

Valyrian steel sword, in the hand of a man who's quite good at using it. Who wants to bet Jaime gets a White Walker kill next season?

Jaime's admitted that he's shit at fighting with his left hand. Admittedly, Jaime is making this comparison with being able to fight at his best, which was likely among the best of his era in Westeros, but by the end of Season 7 he might lose in a fight with Podrick. Only his character shields keep him alive in combat these days. The sword will come in handy, I'm sure, and it's even possible that (as you suggest) he'll get a chance to kill some of the Others despite his combat shortcomings.

I'd be interested in knowing which commander it was that out-thought Tyrion's plans -- if it was Jaime, then he's definitely a good guy to have around, but it comes at the potential cost of not having him in Cersei's inner circle to kill her should she go too far. I think it unlikely that he'd murder her while she's carrying his child; he's made the hard decision before -- I'm thinking of Aerys and Bran -- but never with such a high personal cost.

[JLTucker]

I don't think Cersei is pregnant at all. I think she's pretending so she can control Jamie.

[JLTucker]

Would you rather Tyrion was a complete "Mary Sue" (Christ I hate that term) who always won and outsmarted everybody?

That's the way he was in season two, though, and all the way up until this season. He outshone everyone in strategy until the writers decided they needed Cersei, who has never been smart, to outdo him. Cersei doesn't have any competent advisors, anyway. So it was by wtiers' fiat that she has managed to be one step ahead of Dany.

[TheFeniX]

She had about as much standing to ask about Elaria, Yara or Tyene as Cersei had asking about the Tarleys.

I felt that was a missed opportunity here for a good jab from Cersei.

"About Elaria an..."
"I showed the same mercy to those who murdered my daughter, that you showed to the men who made the mistake of surrendering to you."

And it's done. Danny/Tyrion is forced to move on. And that shit would have hit Tyrion fucking HARD and put him totally off-balance. Instead they talk about Joffrey, not that Tyrion (knowingly or not) allied with such shitty people in the Sand Snakes.

Which, more than anything else (yes, even more than the blood, beheadings, tits and dragons) is the reason I tune in every Sunday night. Fuck fan "expectations". I really don't want the Clegane brothers to duel, simply because the internet can't shut the fuck up about "Clegane Bowl".

I wonder how big the box would be that Sandor would have had to stand on if they still had Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson (I had to Google that shit) still playing him. I had a short laugh thinking about that, no pun intended.

He probably couldn't go back to Moon Door Palace. It would only be a matter of time before word got back to Robin that LF killed his mom. He wouldn't be welcome anywhere else either.

Well, he'd still be alive. And even losing everything else, that would still put him in closer to the throne. I just can't get over how Littlefinger did.... all the shit he did after the Battle of the Bastards. It's getting heaped on him how his position is continuing to get worse and worse and he just sticks with it.

It could just be a matter of Littlefinger scheming for the sake of scheming because that's really all he has left. Or maybe he was playing a longer game where he sends Sansa's head to Cersei and gets back in the queen's favor, but every time he turns around there's a new Stark coming home. Whether he's looking to betray Sansa to Cersei or marry her and unite the North and the Eyrie, having three long lost siblings turn up makes that impossible -so he has to get rid of them. I also suspect that he didn't take the Deadites seriously or he thought they might be a way to pressure Sansa into marrying him.

And this doesn't strike you as something Baelish would take as a notion that he is in way over his head? It does to me. Not just one thing, it's multiple red flags that he continues to push through on his way to his shallow grave that gets me.

Like, one slight to Cersei and she's like "I can kill you anytime I want." He seemed to take that to heart. When Jon said "I'll fucking kill you if I have to." Nothing? "Chaos is a Ladder." Nothing? He just keeps taking shit on the chin and walking it off.

I can get him "buying into his own hype." Especially during the aftermath of "I totally saved Jon's ass and I got loads of dudes backing me." And I could easily swallow one "um, ok" moment. Two or three, sure. But man it just keeps piling on that "Hey Littlefinger, you are becoming less and less important here." The look of shock after the "Chaos is a ladder" comment I was thinking he'd take as a wake-up call. But it wasn't, it was just the scene the writers used to tell us Baelish was getting his soon.

If he had become desperate or losing it, cool ok: show me. Instead I was treated to scenes that seemed to show Baelish was a dangerous opponent finally outmatched by the Starks.

[TheFeniX]

Missed the edit window: I just went and watched the behind the episode stuff concerning Baelish's death scene and it's something to the effect of "He's a sociopath or worse, he has feelings for Sansa, he taught her too well, she won't be persuaded by his tears." And that even with his "worst case scenario exercise" he could never see Sansa doing what she did.

Like I said, the idea that Littlefinger thought about " the woman I sold to the men who murdered her family and who raped and tortured her for months is now safe at home surrounded by family and loyal subjects/friends" and couldn't see "will kill my ass if necessary" in his "worst case" scenario is a fool. A dangerous fool, but not someone who "taught her too well." Moreover, they didn't beat Littlefinger as I said before. Bran literally "did wizard things" and informed Sansa that "Baelish + Ned != Ned Living."

Note to Littlefinger: I mean fuck dude, she SAW YOU MURDER HER AUNT. Your wife. And you couldn't even just kill her, you had to rub it in that you only ever loved Caitlyn, her sister.

Sansa is privy to the worst side of Baelish from multiple angles, fucking others over and fucking her over. Murder, lies: these are his bread and butter. And he can't see her coming to the conclusion that he could turn on her? He can't see HER taking him out once he's outlived his usefulness? It's what the show wants me to believe he's been grooming her for.

And for all we know, Bran just took a 5 second look into Baelish's actions on a whim and was like "wow dude, seriously? And I thought the Night's King was an asshole." I mean, is there a time frame Bran can look at Baelish's waking hours and NOT see him conspiring to fuck everyone?

Baelish HAD to have heard about Bran's power. If he didn't believe it, cool. But combine that with "Chaos is a ladder" thrown in his face? He has all the information to put 2 and 2 together and comes up with NULL. Maybe he would blow it off and think "Bran won't bother looking at me... unless maybe I gave him the dagger that was used in his attempted murder..... a murder that I had setup. What if he looks into the events surrounding Ned's death? Nah, why would the son of the man I setup for treason worry about such tripe?"

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm going to nitpick your analysis of the benefits of having Jaime along a little, TRR.

Valyrian steel sword, in the hand of a man who's quite good at using it. Who wants to bet Jaime gets a White Walker kill next season?

Jaime's admitted that he's shit at fighting with his left hand. Admittedly, Jaime is making this comparison with being able to fight at his best, which was likely among the best of his era in Westeros, but by the end of Season 7 he might lose in a fight with Podrick. Only his character shields keep him alive in combat these days. The sword will come in handy, I'm sure, and it's even possible that (as you suggest) he'll get a chance to kill some of the Others despite his combat shortcomings.

I'd be interested in knowing which commander it was that out-thought Tyrion's plans -- if it was Jaime, then he's definitely a good guy to have around, but it comes at the potential cost of not having him in Cersei's inner circle to kill her should she go too far. I think it unlikely that he'd murder her while she's carrying his child; he's made the hard decision before -- I'm thinking of Aerys and Bran -- but never with such a high personal cost.

Seemed implied at least that it was Jaime that outthought Tyrion, but I could be mistaken. Its a nice touch though. It shows that while Tyrion may be smart, he isn't necessarily smarter than an older, more experienced Jaime in Jamie's field of expertise. And it reverses expectations by having the "idiot with a sword" brother outfox the "smart" brother. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a part of it too- overconfidence on Tyrion's part, because he just couldn't imagine Jaime outsmarting him like that.

Granted, Jaime's not as good with a blade as he was.

Though actually, if they were going to kill him in the end (rather than the obvious "kill Cersei and die in the attempt/kill himself afterward"), having him take out (or help take out) a White Walker, but be fatally wounded in the attempt (because he's not season one Jaime any more) wouldn't be a bad way to go.

[The Romulan Republic]

Would you rather Tyrion was a complete "Mary Sue" (Christ I hate that term) who always won and outsmarted everybody?

That's the way he was in season two, though, and all the way up until this season. He outshone everyone in strategy until the writers decided they needed Cersei, who has never been smart, to outdo him. Cersei doesn't have any competent advisors, anyway. So it was by wtiers' fiat that she has managed to be one step ahead of Dany.

I don't know that I'd call Cersei stupid, though, so much as just arrogant and ambitious and probably not as smart as she thinks she is.

I mean.. even before Dany showed up, Cersei had managed to survive years of bloody intrigue and war and get herself on the throne. At a ridiculously high cost in lives, sure, but she managed it.

And, let's face it, Dany doesn't strike me as a military genius either, or at least not consistently so.

[Elfdart]

I don't think Cersei is pregnant at all. I think she's pretending so she can control Jamie.

Or she could be carrying a tumor that gave false signs of pregnancy like Mary Tudor.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think Cersei is pregnant at all. I think she's pretending so she can control Jamie.

Or she could be carrying a tumor that gave false signs of pregnancy like Mary Tudor.

Arguably more interesting if she's actually pregnant, I think, even if I don't usually care for pregnancy as a plot device and it could possibly be seen as backtracking on Cersei's character development.

Cersei's best and worst characteristic, to my mind, has always been her affection for her children. Best because it actually gives her something for personality and motivation other than just being a conniving, vengeful*, selfish monster. And worst because it leads to shit like scheming to make Joffery king.

She doesn't have that now, now that all of her original three children are dead (partly as a result of her own poor choices, granted).


*Not that I blame her for, say, hating Robert. Her hatred of Tyrion is less rational, though still somewhat understandable.

[Elfdart]

I thought one of those maesters in Old Town looked familiar:



It's Julian Firth who played Brother Jerome, the brown-nosing monk in the Cadfael series:



Two decades later, he's still playing the same kind of narrow-minded, dickish tool. Oh well, he still has a job I guess.

[FaxModem1]

Speaking of Maesters, I wish that plot had gone somewhere. Samwell Tarly got some information about Dragonglass, Jon's true heritage, and how to cure Jorah's affliction, but essentially he became a college dropout after not being worshiped by the Maesters for knowing a few things. I was hoping to either see Sam became an intellectual badass, or at least get kicked out of the Maester order for trying to learn 'forbidden knowledge' too fast. Maybe we'll see more of them in season 8 with Qyburn or something. Seems a rather disappointing plot turn to me.