In my own words, why Mecha aren't better than tanks....

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-27 10:23am

The Dark wrote:Just as an aside, by my calculations using BattleTech and Heavy Gear (converting BT over through the fact that an Autocannon 2 from BT and a Light Autocannon from HG are the same caliber, and assuming equal damage), the AC/20, heaviest 'Mech carried weapon in the game, has an armor penetration capability of 676mm of steel. The typical Medium Laser can penetrate 169mm, and a Small Laser only 100mm. Don't even get me started on the rockets (I refuse to call them "missiles," since even a Katyusha was superior to a BattleTech LRM).

Awhile ago, Graeme & I did a different estimate based on the M1A1's penetrator's KE and the Gauss Cannon's KE (along with a few other things). He came up with 5 damage for the M256 smoothbore firing an APFSDS round. I consider this one of the most generous estimates for BTech, most others have MGs defeating their armor.

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phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-27 10:24am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Your writing is great, Steve - But we all know, technology-wise, what terran army should have been fighting the Clanners!:

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/majsvetlan ... attack.jpg

Dammit, I was looking for that image!

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-27 10:27am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Puny crap, America threw a 240mm howitzer on a SP chassis back in 1945 called the T.92. Just give the thing HEAT and HESH rounds

I was seriously considering making an 8" TD for him, but thought that 175mm was enough

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-27 11:19pm

Besides, he's already going to get his LOSAT-filled fun and goodness....

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-03-28 03:09am

I kinda wish FASA had taken the format from Renegade Legion & Chrimson Skies when they redid Battle tech the third or fourth time....

the whole reactor output-energyload/weight with a base mulitplyer depending on the type of locomotion (Which would give wheels bat out of hell speeds in open ground.) would be a better formulaw, and those shaped charge templates have a better feel, especially when you cover your sheets with plastic and use overhead projector pens for reuse.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-03-28 03:17am

probl;em would be you would need a custom load out sheet for every vehicle USING the sheets from RL.And they looked like a pain to just write up

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-28 01:40pm

Steve wrote:Besides, he's already going to get his LOSAT-filled fun and goodness....

Ahh, LOSAT. Nothing more humiliating to a Mech driver than being killed by a relatively inexpensive, unarmored vehicle.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-03-28 03:21pm

Hundreds of cheap Soviet sholder launched goodness, deployed to ground forces?

Or more to the point, let the damn thing pass bby your building then break out the RPG 7's

It took a couple hundred misses to bring down a Black hawk in Samolia, a mech is a slower moving, more stable target. It shouldn't take more then half a dozen to completly destroy a battle tech mech with a flanking RPG attack.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-28 07:36pm

Given the observed performance of Mechs [e.g. not Steve's in-fanfic uberMechs], a single early RPG-7 should be capable of penetrating the armor and causing some messy damage.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-28 08:04pm

phongn wrote:
Steve wrote:Besides, he's already going to get his LOSAT-filled fun and goodness....
Ahh, LOSAT. Nothing more humiliating to a Mech driver than being killed by a relatively inexpensive, unarmored vehicle.

That can be hauled around by a UH-60L...

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-28 08:10pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
phongn wrote:
Steve wrote:Besides, he's already going to get his LOSAT-filled fun and goodness....
Ahh, LOSAT. Nothing more humiliating to a Mech driver than being killed by a relatively inexpensive, unarmored vehicle.
That can be hauled around by a UH-60L...

Or a HMMWV....

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-28 08:11pm

He meant that the HMMWV+LOSAT combo could be carried by a UH-60

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-28 08:12pm

Steve wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
phongn wrote: Ahh, LOSAT. Nothing more humiliating to a Mech driver than being killed by a relatively inexpensive, unarmored vehicle.
That can be hauled around by a UH-60L...
Or a HMMWV....

I meant the HMMWV carrying LOSAT can be picked up as a sling load by a UH-60L.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-28 08:12pm

phongn wrote:He meant that the HMMWV+LOSAT combo could be carried by a UH-60

Oh....

I'll make a

smiley anyway.

Those poor, doomed Clanners.

8)

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-28 08:14pm

Bah, if we ignore your supply uberMechs, then mass-produce RPG-7s and we'll end the threat for good.

Meanwhile, we can teach the Inner Sphere, I dunno, real tactics for warfare and crush the Clans now.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-28 08:15pm

phongn wrote:Bah, if we ignore your supply uberMechs, then mass-produce RPG-7s and we'll end the threat for good.

Meanwhile, we can teach the Inner Sphere, I dunno, real tactics for warfare and crush the Clans now.

Yeah, but then the Giuseppians will still have to be dealt with.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-28 08:28pm

Steve wrote:
phongn wrote:Bah, if we ignore your supply uberMechs, then mass-produce RPG-7s and we'll end the threat for good.

Meanwhile, we can teach the Inner Sphere, I dunno, real tactics for warfare and crush the Clans now.
Yeah, but then the Giuseppians will still have to be dealt with.

Orbital bombardment, it's the only way to be sure.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-29 01:46am

The shaped charge mine should not have blown off the mech's leg
completely clear. Steve, that is NOT how shaped charge warheads work.

800mm penetration route by a demonstration HEAT round from V. Fofanov's
Russian Armor page.

Note the extremely focussed force of destruction.

In the book "No Victor, No Vanquished", on the 1973 Middle East war,
the author recounts how foreign journalists saw knocked out Israeli
Centurions, completely undamaged, except for a neat little hole drilled
into their turret fronts by AT-3 SAGGER HEAT warheads.

What should have happened is the mech is surrounded in smoke from
the warhead's detonation, and it appears to be undamaged, except for
a little hole in the kneecap.

But when the mech pilot tries to walk, the ruined knee joint completely
siezes up much the same way that your leg would sieze up after someone
drilled your kneecap out with a Black and Decker Cordless drill.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-03-29 03:54am

Or for B-tech terms where everything is HE and HESH (Gee, the autocannons and rail guns are used to clear whole hexes of forest in six seconds...), it would be saying 1/4 of the damage is done to the armor, the other 3/4 are automatic internal hits, with one garunteed critical.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-29 08:08am

Very well, I'll change the device to a satchel charge. ComStar-provided, since the Inner Sphere has some nice anti-'Mech weapons for their infantry.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-29 11:20am

MKSheppard wrote: 800mm penetration route by a demonstration HEAT round from V. Fofanov's
Russian Armor page.

Of course, it doesn't show what happens after it penetrates the armor - this one was completely stopped.

I've seen strobelight pictures in various books of a HEAT round penetrating - the jet suddenly expands on the inside of the armor plate, with predictably deleterious effects.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-30 06:21pm

Another nitpick. Why would Merkavas be carrying HEAT rounds in their
main guns during an urban clearing operation? Most of the construction
of the buildings in the West Bank are of very shoddy construction.
You would only need HEAT if you were say, blowing up Yasser Arafat's
palace, to blast thru the thick walls of that place.

By changing the initial Main gun rounds of the Merks from HEAT to HE,
you would be more accurately representing a urban combat clearing
operation.

Also, you'd be able to insert the following soundbite from the Merkava
crew:

"Sir, We have HE loaded, not HEAT!"

"FUCK IT, FIRE ANYWAY!"

*Boom*

It's faster to just fire the round in the barrel, rather than
unloading it to change out the round.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-31 09:39am

MKSheppard wrote:Another nitpick. Why would Merkavas be carrying HEAT rounds in their
main guns during an urban clearing operation? Most of the construction
of the buildings in the West Bank are of very shoddy construction.
You would only need HEAT if you were say, blowing up Yasser Arafat's
palace, to blast thru the thick walls of that place.

See, Shep? Constructive criticism good

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-31 01:49pm

phongn wrote: See, Shep? Constructive criticism good

Urk, I came up with a way for Mechs loaded with Gauss rifles
and autocannons to penetrate tank armor at long range, despite
being unable to penetrate the frontal glacis of the Merkavas in reality...

PLUNGING FIRE

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-31 09:58pm

MKSheppard wrote:
phongn wrote: See, Shep? Constructive criticism good
Urk, I came up with a way for Mechs loaded with Gauss rifles
and autocannons to penetrate tank armor at long range, despite
being unable to penetrate the frontal glacis of the Merkavas in reality...

PLUNGING FIRE

Oooh, nasty. Don't let the Great Leader hear of this treachery, though!