Modern Germany in WWII

[KraytKing]

Apologies for the source material and general lack of sense, but here goes:

#1: Pre-WWII Germany is suddenly replaced with modern Germany. However, leadership and general national sentiment remain the same. Essentially, modern Germany versus WWII Allies. This occurs immediately prior to the invasion of Poland.

#2: Entire Axis gets the same treatment. Any territories not controlled by the modern country but controlled by the WWII nation are placed under the control of puppet governments with technology of the era. Areas under control of modern country but not 1930's country are placed under control of modern country.

#3: Same as above, but without leadership changes. Modern country is identical to ours in every way. However, the switch occurs in 1942.

Inspired by an old Archinist thread. I sort of miss him.

What happens?

[The Romulan Republic]

Apologies for the source material and general lack of sense, but here goes:

#1: Pre-WWII Germany is suddenly replaced with modern Germany. However, leadership and general national sentiment remain the same. Essentially, modern Germany versus WWII Allies. This occurs immediately prior to the invasion of Poland.

This right here renders the whole scenario ridiculous. Modern Germany is nothing like WWII Germany, and not strutted in the same way.

#2: Entire Axis gets the same treatment. Any territories not controlled by the modern country but controlled by the WWII nation are placed under the control of puppet governments with technology of the era. Areas under control of modern country but not 1930's country are placed under control of modern country.

See above.

#3: Same as above, but without leadership changes. Modern country is identical to ours in every way. However, the switch occurs in 1942.

Everyone in the world freaks out when they realize that spontaneous temporal/dimensional shifts are possible, and have to deal with the political, social, and scientific implications of that?

Honestly, that kind of outweighs the significance even of the war.

Inspired by an old Archinist thread. I sort of miss him.

What happens?

See above. I actually think who'd win the war is just about the least interesting part of this scenario.

[Elheru Aran]

Mm. The question is mainly if the technology Germany has is sufficient to overwhelm the entirety of the Allies. I don't think they even have enough BULLETS... let alone bombs, missiles, rockets, tank shells, etcetera. Technology can do some pretty cool things (a few Tornadoes for example might be sufficient to overwhelm most of a B-17 attack on their own) but the stark reality is that quantity has a quality of all its own... something which the Allies, in particular Russia, won't scruple to use. One major statistic is that the modern German military is a fraction of the WWII military...

If it's something like 'modern Germany with historic Nazi leaders', the war gets a lot bloodier for the Allies all of a sudden, and depending on how much hurt they can lay down on the Russians (who will NOT back down otherwise after Barbarossa) they might be able to negotiate a peace given time.

This is all assuming that the population magically doesn't look around and go 'WTF something's wrong', analyze the situation, and conclude that the ploin-fruit is thoroughly fornicated, then promptly surrender to the Western Allies.

[KraytKing]

This is all assuming that the population magically doesn't look around and go 'WTF something's wrong', analyze the situation, and conclude that the ploin-fruit is thoroughly fornicated, then promptly surrender to the Western Allies.

Yes, this was my intent. I may have oversimplified it in the OP.

[Alyrium Denryle]

#3: Same as above, but without leadership changes. Modern country is identical to ours in every way. However, the switch occurs in 1942.

The temporally translocated Bundesrepublik Deutschland freak right the fuck out because they just got transported to the 1940s. They shut the death camps Right The Fuck Down. They fucking immediately tender an unconditional surrender to the western allies and introduce them to several things.

1) Absolute proof that they just got temporally translocated from the year 2017. They can... you cant fake modern jets and Leopard IIs.
2) Modern technology. Oh glorious modern tech.

They Soviets might not back down at that point, but the Germans might be able to make them, and keep them out of Poland long enough for the western allies to redeploy forces to make the soviets think twice. At that point, they likely council the americans to, if not cancel then at least postpone nuclear weapons tests long enough to get the soviet spies out of the Manhattan Project. A handful of German Eurofighters take out the japanese fleet as a show of good faith and gobble up all the air to air kills those modern pilots ever dreamed of but otherwise never got to have... why? Because modern germans are still going to be very very sorry about a history that now no longer exists and they will do just about anything to put it right.

[Simon_Jester]

Do territories that were within the boundaries of 1936, 1938, or 1939 Germany... but not within the boundaries of the present German state... get transferred? I ask because, for example, pretty much all of what was then easternmost Germany is now part of Poland or Russia.

[KraytKing]

Do territories that were within the boundaries of 1936, 1938, or 1939 Germany... but not within the boundaries of the present German state... get transferred? I ask because, for example, pretty much all of what was then easternmost Germany is now part of Poland or Russia.

They are placed under control of a puppet government loyal to the German state, but with technology of the 1940's. They can be annexed at any point. The same is true for Japan. Keep in mind, this is before the attack on Poland but after the Munich conference.

[Simon_Jester]

Uh... I'm not even sure how this is supposed to work. Are the people in these areas mind-controlled drones or something? You can't talk meaningfully about "modern Germany but with Nazi views" or "governments I created out of nothing whose sole relevant trait is that they are 'loyal.' "

[KraytKing]

Imagine a Vichy-type thing. The individuals aren't necessarily loyal, but the state is.

As for Nazi-Modern Germany, I don't care. It exists because I say so. Perhaps a device similar to that featured in Kingsman, stimulating aggression centers. Maybe some brains got swapped around, these people actually ARE Nazis, updated with modern expertise. Pick whichever suits you.

[Elheru Aran]

I think the problem here is that the *people* in the modern day world are dramatically different from how they were in the 1930s-40s as far as mindsets go. You can't simply do an ISOT and say 'okay they're now on the side of the bad guys' without rationalizing it *somehow*, and to be frank, whatever rationalizations you've given kinda suck, down to ultimately being 'because I say so' which is... well, it's pretty weak.

'Nazi Germany with Modern Germany's military forces' might have worked better.

[KraytKing]

Someone like trump came around (Hitler). All the shit that's been living in the woodwork for the past eighty years just came out. The people of Germany who don't believe in him are shouted down by those that do and eventually change their minds to avoid mob justice. In the scenario, Nazism never actually died, just went underground. Now, with the perfect opportunity, it returns.


Happy?

[Simon_Jester]

Imagine a Vichy-type thing. The individuals aren't necessarily loyal, but the state is.

As for Nazi-Modern Germany, I don't care. It exists because I say so. Perhaps a device similar to that featured in Kingsman, stimulating aggression centers. Maybe some brains got swapped around, these people actually ARE Nazis, updated with modern expertise. Pick whichever suits you.

No, because it's stupid.

"Isle in the Sea of Time" scenarios are interesting because you have to think about how modern people would react to a pre-modern situation. If you instead randomly replace the modern people with mind-controlled demonic fake "modern" people, you just get a stupid scenario.

if you don't care about how your scenario gets started, and don't care if it comes across as stupid, you were wasting time suggesting it in the first place.

Someone like trump came around (Hitler). All the shit that's been living in the woodwork for the past eighty years just came out. The people of Germany who don't believe in him are shouted down by those that do and eventually change their minds to avoid mob justice. In the scenario, Nazism never actually died, just went underground. Now, with the perfect opportunity, it returns.

Happy?

No, because it's still stupid. You may be too ignorant about modern German history to know this, but the actual Germans have been madly de-Nazifying their society for the past seventy years or so. There are not hordes of crypto-Nazis sitting around waiting to come out of the woodwork and take over the country again. The entire structure of modern German politics is based on this fact.

As I understand it, the recent comments by Arnold Schwarzenegger in the wake of the Charlottesville demonstrations and terror attack illustrate the attitude of today's Germans (and Austrians) towards Naziism pretty well:

"Let me be as blunt as possible: [The Nazis] are losers... Believe me, I knew the original Nazis. I was born in Austria in 1947, shortly after the Second World War. Growing up, I was surrounded by broken men, men who came home from the war filled with shrapnels [sic] and guilt. Men who were misled into following a losing ideology. And I can tell you, these ghosts that you idolize spent the rest of their lives living in shame. And right now, they're resting in Hell."

Any country in which a resurgence of Naziism in 'modern Germany' is possible would not be recognizable as modern Germany. It would be some other, entirely different country. Probably one that had been grimly dismembered and reduced to a pastoral state a la the Morgenthau Plan after the Western Allies realized that the Soviets were right and that there was no way to de-Nazify these inexplicably evil beings walking in human form.

[KraytKing]

I wouldn't guess that any Nazis who DO happen to live in Germany are too keen on admitting it, unless they suddenly find themselves in a scenario where it is suddenly quite acceptable. That is not to say that the majority of Germans are secretly Nazis; I put this in Fantasy for a reason. This is a world where time travel is possible, and German de-Nazification efforts failed dismally. If that requires an alternate end to WWII, more similar to the first one, so be it. As long as the end result is a similarly modernized and economically powerful country.

Whatever you feel about this, do you have any thoughts on the other part, where our Germany gets put back in time without modifications? What about if the switch occurs in 1944? 1945 (before VE day, naturally)?

[Simon_Jester]

I wouldn't guess that any Nazis who DO happen to live in Germany are too keen on admitting it, unless they suddenly find themselves in a scenario where it is suddenly quite acceptable.

The precise reason such views are not accepted in Germany is because there aren't enough neo-Nazis to matter; the majority of the population has a very firm anti-Nazi opinion. You can't just magic that away and pretend you haven't changed anything important.

That is not to say that the majority of Germans are secretly Nazis; I put this in Fantasy for a reason.

The problem is, it's a "fantasy" that invokes real or realistic people, places, and things. You didn't ask "what if a bunch of suspiciously Nazi-esque space aliens replace 1939 Germany?" or "what if the 1939 Germans are replaced by orcs?" You asked "what if the 1939 Germans are replaced by modern Germans?"

But then you specified a single specific change, presumably to force the outcome of the scenario in your desired direction, I guess.

And the problem is that this specific change breaks suspension of disbelief, in a way that the other fantastic elements in the scenario don't. There's an unspoken convention in scenarios like this that while you CAN do weird things like change physics or travel through time, you can't change human nature. Probably because it's hard to talk about and identify with a society where human nature fundamentally changes, more so than it is to talk about a society where physics is different, or to talk about traveling to the past.

This is a world where time travel is possible, and German de-Nazification efforts failed dismally. If that requires an alternate end to WWII, more similar to the first one, so be it. As long as the end result is a similarly modernized and economically powerful country.

It wouldn't be. If the Allies had become convinced that Germany couldn't be de-Nazified, they would have ground Germany into the dust.

You can try to construct a timeline in which this does not happen, but I wouldn't recommend it; it's likely to come across very poorly to people who know things about Germany and about history.

Whatever you feel about this, do you have any thoughts on the other part, where our Germany gets put back in time without modifications? What about if the switch occurs in 1944? 1945 (before VE day, naturally)?
[/quote]If it's really, clearly, recognizably our Germany, you mean? As opposed to being a bunch of pseudo-modern-Germans who have had their brains reprogrammed so that they can be Nazi brains wearing the skins of modern Germans?

[KraytKing]

Whatever you feel about this, do you have any thoughts on the other part, where our Germany gets put back in time without modifications? What about if the switch occurs in 1944? 1945 (before VE day, naturally)?

If it's really, clearly, recognizably our Germany, you mean? As opposed to being a bunch of pseudo-modern-Germans who have had their brains reprogrammed so that they can be Nazi brains wearing the skins of modern Germans?

[sigh] Yes.

Let me just say, while it does toy with the suspension of disbelief, I don't think simply stating "modern Germany, Nazi leadership and general sentiment" has quite the effect you claim. I tested this out with some personal friends of mine, and we were quite capable of having a civil discussion on the topic. We concluded that the American and Soviet industries were too powerful, and that the loss of the entire Japanese navy was too difficult to overcome. Suspension of disbelief requires not only a believable scenario, but also a willing audience.

[Simon_Jester]

It requires three elements.
1) A believable scenario.
2) A willing audience.
3) Convincing presentation.

The more you have of any one of these, the easier it is to get the others. Your friends made up for your lack of (1) and (3) by being (2). We didn't. And you had a deficiency of (3) because you just baldly stated "current Nazi leadership" without talking plausibly about how that could happen. The local culture when it comes to this kind of random "Random Alternate Reality" scenario usually isn't kind to situations where a nation-state randomly 'breaks character' by acting in ways that are utterly implausible, as a result of mind control.

The only person who regularly tries/tried that around here, Zor, usually just has random mind-controlled artificial beings "spawn" without even the pretense that they're real people who exist in the real world. Or, more and more often since I joined, he'd actually give his "randomly appearing beings!" some kind of recognizable motivation.

[Patroklos]

Modern Germany would run out of energy and grind to a halt within days or arrival. From the best I can find German WWII domestic oil production peaked at 32,000 bbl/d in 1944. Current domestic German production is roughly 46,000 bbl/d. That sounds good, until you realize that unlike WWII Germany, Modern Germany's economy is 100% reliant on oil (despite recent green initiatives) in nearly every way and has a LOT more demand. Modern Germany's peace time consumption is 2,338,000 bbl/d. Ouch. Not only that, Germany is not a wave maker in oil extraction technology so that production would quickly grind to a halt.

Also for the 1942 scenario upwards of 5-6 million (maybe more) Germans were outside of the replaced areas, fully armed. Modern Germany is essentially a defense backwater by modern Western standards, here they are essentially pacifists nestled in the heart of a giant armed camp with no reason to love them. The garrison and leave units of Poland alone would probably quickly overcome and take control of modern Germany in short order.

[KraytKing]

I didn't think about the oil consumption. Historically, that was a pretty major factor, and I can't imagine everyone having a car, among other factors, would help. If they had seized Caucasus oil fields, would it make a dent? Is wartime rationing even feasible on the scale required?

[Patroklos]

In short, no. Whatever the output they would get from the war ravaged sabotaged Caucuses isn't going to quintuple the actual wartime oil production of Germany to cover the Modern Germany domestic demand, which is to say nothing about continuing to support the oil demand of contemporary armies outside of Germany and all of the territory under German control.

Modern Germany gets its oil from outside of Europe now, from an industrial and transportation base that doesn't exist in the 1940s. For good reason, as the amount of oil it uses doesn't exist inside Euripe. Your scenario doesn't change this just because you warp them into 1942.

Also keep in mind that there will be no internet. No satellites for communications or imagery or GPS. Germany has very little industry for most of its raw material supplies. In short none of the modern technology in Modern Germany will work, at least well, but probably not at all. All of Germany's fighter aircraft are from European consortium production lines, which means they don't even build most of them themselves. They probably have to start cannibalizing on day one, as an example.

And above we were talking about only oil, yet we know Modern Germany has a rather strong strategic weakness regarding Russian and natural gas currently. Now imagine there is no source for it whatsoever...

[Simon_Jester]

I didn't think about the oil consumption. Historically, that was a pretty major factor, and I can't imagine everyone having a car, among other factors, would help. If they had seized Caucasus oil fields, would it make a dent?

The thing about all German attempts to "seize oil fields" is that it never worked. Oil fields rely heavily on specialist equipment that is manufactured in only a small number of places. It's fairly easy to sabotage an oil refinery or an oil well beyond the capacity of easy repair. Large quantities of oil really need to be transported in pipelines, and pipelines are stupidly easy for a retreating enemy to sabotage.

The main supply of outside oil for Germany during World War II came from Ploesti, which the Germans didn't conquer, they just got the Romanians to sell the oil to them.