Mange wrote: ↑2017-09-13 02:35pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2017-09-13 02:06pm
Why do people suddenly hate TFA so much? Is it just because its expected in internet fandoms that all new Star Wars films will be bad? Is it about JJ Abrams specifically? It feels sometimes like "everything Abrams makes is horrible" has become a ubiquitous meme, not because his work is actually that bad, but because a few bitter Trekkies started whining and the meme took off, as memes do.
"Suddenly"? I don't hate TFA, but my thought when I walked out of the theater that cold December evening almost two years ago was that I simply didn't like it and I hoped I would with repeat viewings, but... I didn't have any expectations and I didn't have much of a problem with Abrams then. Though it was flawed, I thought that his first Star Trek movie was decent, but I thought
Into Darkness was absolutely terrible (and with that eyesore inducing lens flare...) and far too derivative. I then watched
Super 8...
So Abrams has made some good films, and some bad films.
I do think expectations probably have a lot to do with it though, at least for some people.
I say "suddenly", though, because when TFA came out, the fan response seemed to be a pretty even mix of "good", "okay", and "shit" (I expect most of the general public enjoyed it, but didn't and don't feel very strongly about it). Yet now, it seems that the consensus is largely settling on "shit". And I'm wondering why.
As I wrote earlier, I think TFA is a boring soft remake of ANH with slightly different characters, the same locations and with sprinkles of TESB and ROTJ and I think it's far too derivative.
Somewhat derivative plot-wise, but I actually think that its got some rather original characterization. And I'm not just talking about the increased demographic diversity, though that's certainly welcome.
Finn is something completely new in a Star Wars film, a stormtrooper/ex-stormtrooper protagonist, and I find his journey from a frightened, horrified man running from danger to one who is willing to take a stand and even go on the offensive out of loyalty to the only friends he's ever had to be a very compelling one, or at least it would be if it was more fleshed-out or less buried amid other material of more dubious quality. Its also very different from Luke's or Anakin's characterization, and quite different from Han's or Obi-wan's as well (their are some superficial parallels to Han, but they have rather different personalities). Finn has no real counterpart in any previous Star Wars film.
Kylo Ren, meanwhile, is an interesting deconstruction of Dark Side fanboyism and the "bad ass" Darksider, and has some interesting implications to contemporary politics when viewed in a certain light, which I'll get to shortly.
Even Rey, who has the flattest characterization of the three main new characters, is quite distinct from Luke in that while Luke jumped at the chance for adventure, Rey is more reluctant, wanting to remain on Jakku to wait for her missing family. She also has a number of subtle and not-so-subtle parallels to Anakin, though she's a much nicer person than Anakin was at her age. You could draw a comparison to Anakin as a child, almost, aside from the fact that Rey has a less annoying and less, well, childish personality.
And of course, you have the Abrams approach (which he used in Trek too) of having duel protagonists, with more development being given to the ostensibly secondary protagonist. Which may or may not be a good thing, but is at least distinctive from prior Star Wars films.
Of course there are a lot of similarities to the OT, but Star Wars has always been built on familiar archetypes and such. At its best, Star Wars tells a fairly idealistic story of good vs. evil, using classic archetypes and tropes but giving them a new spin. The best example of this, to me, being the Vader redemption plot from the OT. In four simple words-"I am your father"-the story was transformed from a traditional, simple (though quite serviceable) Hollywood action story of good vs. evil, hero fights villain, hero eventually slays villain; to a story about saving the villain, which gives us, in my opinion, one of the most powerful and original of cinematic resolutions.
TFA lays the ground work to do the same (if not as well)- to take classic tropes and take them in a new direction. It just needs more fleshing out.
Incidentally, and since it relates to and illustrates a lot of the above, I absolutely love the moment during the final duel when Rey pulls Anakin's lightsaber to her, and away from Kylo Ren. Granted, I don't know how much of this was intentional, but in just a few seconds of footage, it conveys a great deal about the characters and concepts very effectively, at least to me. Let's see:
-Its a satisfying moment of heroism when we see Rey come to Finn's rescue.
-It establishes her and Finn more as equals, with him rescuing her, and then her returning the favour, as opposed to either a) making Rey the damsel in distress who must be rescued at the end, or b) simply having her save herself, and thus render the other characters' efforts somewhat redundant.
-It establishes, again, that Rey is stronger than Kylo Ren, and, since ability to use the Force is so heavily-tied to one's mental/emotional state, it establishes her as a stronger person.
-It shows that Rey, not Kylo, is the one worthy of being the heir to Anakin/Vader's legacy. I've previously made comparisons to Arthur pulling the sword from the stone, and I think its quite apt- Rey pulls the saber from the snow, and reveals herself as the one true Jedi. And it does this without beating you over the head with the symbolism, which is always appreciated.
It'll also be an effective piece of foreshadowing if Rey does indeed turn out to be a descendent of Anakin, and a quite brilliant one if the "Rey is a reincarnation of Anakin/the Chosen One" theories turn out to be true.
-In doing so, Rey symbolically defeats Kylo Ren utterly, thus completing the deconstruction of the "bad ass" Darksider that Ren aspires to be. His whole life was about trying to live up to the idealized shadow of his infamous grandfather. To this end, he sacrificed his home, his family, his human decency, his freedom... even murdered his father. And it was all for nothing, because in that moment, Rey proves that she is more deserving of being Anakin's successor. And Kylo Ren knows it. The actors play that moment very well. The confusion from Ren when he can't pull the saber to him, the shock and wonder on Rey's face as she realizes her potential as a Jedi, and the mix of disbelief, resignation, exhaustion, and fear in Kylo Ren's face and posture when she does.
Granted, plot-wise, it feels like a resolution that maybe ought to have happened later in the story, but if it spurs Kylo Ren to become more of a threat, or go in a different direction, that might not be a big issue.
-If you want to be juvenile about it, you can view the lightsaber as a phallic symbol, in which case Rey's taking it represents her symbolically taking Kylo Ren's manhood. Alternatively, it could symbolize her proving herself, as a female protagonist, the equal of the male characters who preceded her. Now, both of these have a lot of potential for "unfortunate implications", (the equation of sex with power and dominance, as well as that strong women are somehow disempowering to me; or that a woman must be like a man, or have power over a man, in order to be their equal). But it could also fit with the interpretation I've seen (I can't recall where) that Kylo Ren represents basically an angry privileged young white man, since such people are generally threatened (however unjustifiably) by empowered women. That certainly fits with him being basically a space Neo-Nazi terrorist, as well.
Basically, Kylo Ren the Alt. Rightist.
And all of those different layers of possible meaning and interpretation are elegantly conveyed in maybe five-ten seconds of film, without a word of dialogue spoken. Masterful.
Now, again, I don't know how much of this was deliberate and how much of it is me reading my own interpretations, or others', into it. But in either case, it
works.
The rest of the film may be only on the high end of mediocre, perhaps, but for this alone, I will forever defend JJ Abrams as a director (he also earned my respect by being one of the few directors in Hollywood who still uses actual
film, and is keeping the use of film, as opposed to just using video, alive).
Say what you will about TFA as a whole, I consider that moment one of the best in the franchise, every bit the equal of Vader storming the ship in
Rogue One, "I am your father" in
Empire Strikes Back, and Luke refusing to turn/Vader's redemption in
Return of the Jedi.
Add to that Abrams inability when it comes to worldbuilding (when I watched the movie, I couldn't understand what planet that was destroyed by the Starkiller as it was only mentioned in passing. Heck, I first thought it was Coruscant and there was absolutely no punch to it and it didn't give the audience a sense of the stakes. This was also the seventh, not the first, Star Wars movie) and the giant plotholes. I've also never thought that Abrams is a good director and that he's an even worse storyteller (especially when it comes to visuals and scenes that needs an emotional punch) who never seems to know where to go with his "mystery box" (that seems to be quite empty), but I've already outlined why. And with the exception of TPM, I do like the prequels and I really, really like Rogue One (but that movie was pure nerd service).
Fair enough. I don't entirely agree, but you are entitled to your opinion.
Apparently, though, their was some more material filmed on Hosnia (which Starkiller Base destroyed), which was cut, likely at least in part because of fan whining about the political scenes in the PT. Which just proves that one of the worst mistakes one can make is to listen overmuch to the fan base. Its the ultimate example of "written by committee", with a committee that will never, ever, be fully satisfied.
And yeah, I made the Coruscant mistake too, as I recall.
Thanas wrote: ↑2017-09-13 03:10pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2017-09-13 02:06pm
Why do people suddenly hate TFA so much? Is it just because its expected in internet fandoms that all new Star Wars films will be bad? Is it about JJ Abrams specifically? It feels sometimes like "everything Abrams makes is horrible" has become a ubiquitous meme, not because his work is actually that bad, but because a few bitter Trekkies started whining and the meme took off, as memes do.
There is no logic to Abrams' films. He just creates a picture of OBVIOUSLY COOL SCENE followed by OBVIOUSLY COOL SCENE followed by HAVE YOU SEEN HOW COOL THIS SCENE IS YET. While totally skipping out on everything that makes a movie actually good, like direction and internal logic. He is little better than Michael Bay. Well actually he is worse as Transformers was actually watchable.
I can understand stories not making any sense and even like them if everything else is perfect. Like for example BSG's series finale made no sense but I still enjoyed it for being a character story and the music and the performances. But there is nothing outstanding in Abram's stuff to make up for the glaring deficiencies.
I personally think that's an overstatement, but there is some truth to it, certainly. I remember my brother saying much the same thing after seeing the film.
I just find enough merit in other aspects of the film that I'm willing to overlook/put in the effort to justify the plot holes. I admit that I'm in a rather odd position here, because I'm usually the guy emphasizing the importance of the script and continuity, but film is also a visual medium, and part of the script is also the characterization, and I think TFA scores considerably higher by both those standards, as discussed above.
Adam Reynolds wrote: ↑2017-09-13 03:29pm
I don't think most of the people who are complaining about The Force Awakens are the same one who previously complained about the prequels. In fact it is mostly the opposite. Most of those who complained strongly about one sort of like the other. Not everyone hates the prequels, and you'll likely find that the harshest critics of The Force Awakens at least sort of liked them.
Interesting. I suppose that makes some sense.
Personally I would say they are bad in almost exactly opposite ways. The prequels are bad in the sense that they have less effective known characters and were hampered by being prequels. The Force Awakens is bad in the sense that it had extremely lousy worldbuilding and much less depth. The thing that makes a lot of people like the sequels better is the characters, which are what people get subjectively attached to in stories and cause them to overlook just about any other flaws. Good characters in Star Wars and most people are sold without anything else. TFA also had enough momentum that you could easily overlook the flaws if you aren't paying enough attention to such things, which is why casual audiences mostly liked it.
That sounds about right, albeit only part of the picture. Though I personally enjoy both the PT and TFA, even though I would not consider either to be truly brilliant films on the level of the OT.
The problem with Starkiller Base is a storytelling one. The plot of ANH is about the Death Star, with R2 getting the plans and with them mentioned in the opening crawl. By contrast the thing mentioned in TFA was the map to Luke in the same context as the Death Star plans. Starkiller Base just appeared suddenly, and also served to undercut the main drama of finding the map to Luke. The Luke plot was solved by a literal dues ex machina, while the Starkiller Base plot was solved by utterly no planning whatsoever. Blowing up both Death Stars required the Rebel Alliance undergo costly covert operations to discover their presence and their weaknesses. Starkiller Base on the other hand was destroyed by an entirely improvised plan by Han and Finn.
I don't mind how Starkiller Base was destroyed, particularly. We do see the Resistance (I actually typed "Rebels" before correcting myself
) discussing it, and there's a mention of them sending a scout out to it I believe (which is probably where they get the map/image of it from). So they're aware of it and its location, and already taking steps against it. Having Finn devise the plan itself based on inside knowledge is fine. It gives another way to tie Finn's backstory into the plot and make it useful, and it continues Finn's transition from a man running away from the First Order to one willing to take a proactive role to challenge it out of devotion to Rey. And it moves the overall plot towards the final confrontation along.
The plan also gives Han a last chance to show off his flying skills in a new and interesting way, so that's good.
The resolution of the star map plot, however, was very clumsily-done, yes. I'd consider that probably the worst plot issue in the film (their are three big ones for me: the map resolution, the clumsy Force vision-induced exposition and development in Maz's castle, and the fact that we will now presumably never get a Han/Leia/Luke reunion, though that last is less a hole and more just something that irks me as a fan).
I don't see why the final battle couldn't just have been a jailbreak for Rey in which the heroes steal the First Order half of the map, keeping all of the other plot points. It really would have lifted the movie for me.
It could have been, but let's be honest: this is a big Hollywood action film, and a Star Wars film at that. Of course there was going to be a star fighter battle. At the very least, you'd have had to have Poe and company providing cover/a distraction for the rescue mission, and without giving them a bigger military target than rescuing one woman, it might be hard to justify the Resistance going for that.
But yeah, having the final piece of the star map be recovered aboard Starkiller Base would have been a good call.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Yes, fine. It has the potential to have him be a dick if not carefully handled and even then would still be a shitty retread of previous familial reveals.