Who do you consider the most sympathetic Game of Thrones character?

[The Romulan Republic]

Similar to my Star Wars protagonist thread, but a bit different.

This one interests me because, well...

Let's face it, their aren't a lot of sympathetic characters in GoT, or at least not a lot of unambiguously good/heroic characters. Its a pretty dark setting, where even the closest thing we have to conventional epic fantasy protagonists (long-lost prophesied heir/chosen one Jon, and exiled heir returning Daenerys) have done some seriously questionable things, while probably the most unambiguously noble major character (Ned Stark) gets his head chopped off about one season in.

So I'm curious... which characters do people actually like, and why?

Selection was hard, because there are a lot of characters, and like I said, none of them are shown in an unambiguously positive light. So there's the "other" option, and my apologies if you feel someone worthy got cut.

Edit: Incidentally, this forum's spell check apparently recognizes "Lannister" as a word. If found that fairly amusing.

[The Romulan Republic]

Anyway, for me its probably good old honest Ned, though I like Brienne of Tarth (both as one of the more "noble" characters in some respects, and as a woman defying gender roles in a feudal society), Jon, and Tyrion as well (most of the time). Tyrion, though, its more just that he's fun to watch rather than that I think he's a particularly sympathetic person. He's GoT's version of Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for me- the amusingly snarky and well-acted asshole.

Cersei gets sympathy points despite being a horrible person, because NOBODY deserves to have Tywin Lannister as a father AND Robert Baratheon as a husband.

Jaime is slowly growing on me of late, but still has too much baggage from his actions in earlier seasons for me to really like him.

[TheFeniX]

Jon Snow hasn't done a whole lot all that questionable morally IIRC. He killed the half-hand due to circumstance and has made some tactical blunders, but is otherwise probably the most stand-up man in westeroes. Tarth is likely the most stand-up woman. Sansa would garner more sympathy for me but the writers took her to a "whip the dog" event horizon that made me lose interest.

Ned is also a stand-up guy killed by his own code. But he also had every chance to put his foot down to Cat and say "Jon Snow is now Jon Stark, deal" and he never did. He also let the son of his dead sister take the Black without ever offering up any truth about his origins.

Rob Stark gets an honorable mention, at least the book version concerning his marriage and accompanying slaughter. Just like his father, done in by his own rigorous adherence to his code. Greyworm also had a shit start at life. There are actually plenty of honorable and heroic characters in GoT. Martin just generally eschews heroic plot devices, not the characters themselves. If Robin Hood kept his "head down" in original GoTs, he could get a lot done. But if he acted like he was in a Robin Hood movie, he'd be dead in 5 seconds.

Danny and Tyrion aren't even on the same level as Ned, though they are salvageable.

Really though,... all the people who got fucked over. Like the family the Hound robs and leaves to die... who then die. You know, with the father having to slit the daughters throat with a knife? Yea, (as much as I hate to be that guy) as a new father, shit was rough to watch.

[FaxModem1]

I voted Jon Snow. Of the characters presented, he is the one who got handed a bad hand from the start. Everyone else, from Brienne, Arya, Cersei, Jaime, Ned, etc., are all characters who have had a rather good starting point, and through situations beyond their control, their lives have gotten worse or better. However, there is still a choice in how that character reacts to such a situation, and how they react to everyone else.

Ned Stark, and most of the Starks, in general, have a very black and white view of the world. This, combined with their medieval version of right and wrong, means that being a bastard, or some other issue, makes one less. Sansa's sympathy was abused by the writers too often, as for most of the series, she was a walking chewtoy for the villain of the season. Her finally having some agency in the final seasons is one of the few reasons I actually like her as a character as opposed to the walking prop she's been for most of it. Until about season 6, Sansa could have been played by a Mrs. Potato Head doll for all the variation she got as a character and agency she had. It's hard to be sympathetic when that's all the character is there for.

Cersei and Jaime are more ruthless in their actions, and less black and white. Their main thought process is more 'us vs them'. You have to be their thrall, or are against them. Jaime is growing out of this as time goes on, but he is still someone who is very willing to cut down those in his way.

Dany is very sympathetic, and starts out as someone who is in exile, and is building up her own forces to take the throne, through her own achievements. She, however, has had a rather conditional viewpoint on compassion, and has had to be taught multiple times over the series that, you know, setting people on fire is bad, and maybe shouldn't do it.

Jon Snow, in contrast to everyone else, has not been raised as nobility, and when pointed out to him that he needs to stop being so put out about where he came from, and how good he has it, he learns, and adapts. He cares for people, and tries to be compassionate. Compassion goes a long way in my book, and he's one of the few survivors who has it. Note how he does all he can to try and help his fellow brothers, or people in bad situations in general. Not many in the show do that. And he's one of the few who does that still has a pulse.

[JLTucker]

Anyway, for me its probably good old honest Ned

Fuck Ned. He was a moron and it's his fault all of this shit happened. He bears responsibility for every Throne-related death in Westeros

[Q99]

What, no Joffrey?

[Mr Bean]

This is a hard choice because most of the most sympathetic characters are not on the poll. Jamie started horrible but is getting better (To SPITE you sister!) while Tyrion started in a good place but is getting worse. Jon is technically the most sympathetic but he's made some terrible decisions.

If you want sympathetic you need look no further than the King beyond the wall himself Mance Rayder. He gathers the free folk not to conquer but to deny the walkers the bodies they will need to swell their armies of the dead. Sure he intends to carve out a Kingdom but it's as a practical consideration. His people need food and places to farm and being north of the wall will be death sooner rather than later.

[JLTucker]

I would have added Robert Baratheon given that Ned knew the fucking truth of the matter with Lyanna and let his friend go to war anyway. Such BS.

This is going by the TV series. I'm reading the books now and I'm not sure if the war started after Lyanna's death or before.

[Terralthra]

The battle at the Tower of Joy happened pretty much after the war had ended. The last major battle was the sack of King's Landing, when first Ned entered the castle to see Jaime Lannister sitting on the Iron Throne with King Aerys II dead at his feet, then saw Robert Baratheon presented with the bodies of the King's wife and children, Ser Gregor Clegane having raped/murdered Elia Martell and murdered Rhaenys and infant Aegon. Robert was pleased by the presentation, Ned was disgusted. They argued and Ned left King's Landing alone to go do clean-up on the few remaining trouble spots in the south. He helped lift the siege at Storm's End, then rode south to the Tower of Joy. The war was basically over by the time he saw Lyanna.

[B5B7]

For me this was a choice between John Snow and Tyrion Lannister. I chose Tyrion, as though John is a good man, that is simply his nature; but Tyrion has chosen to act for the good of all that is practicable.

[Crazedwraith]

Anyway, for me its probably good old honest Ned

Fuck Ned. He was a moron and it's his fault all of this shit happened. He bears responsibility for every Throne-related death in Westeros

Bullshit. It's Littlefinger's fault he intentionally instigated the War of Five Kings. Ned merely failed to prevent it.

[Simon_Jester]

The thing that limits my sympathy for Ned, who remains high on the list of sympathetic characters...

It's not that what happened is his fault. It's that he couldn't step far enough outside his role of "impeccably honorable Lord Paramount of the North" to do the job of "Hand of the King."

He basically... didn't try to prevent the Lannisters from totally suborning the legal system and security forces of King's Landing, as far as I can remember. And it's a blind spot for him. He's not actually stupid, he's certainly not incapable of imagining that other people might do evil or treacherous things. He's just got this massive blind spot. On a battlefield against guys with swords and spears he wouldn't make a mistake like forgetting to block an obvious and building attack just because it would be somehow "dishonorable" to notice what they were doing.

Don't get me wrong, he warned Robert that he didn't want to be Hand and didn't think he'd be good at it. But I feel like in that situation, he owed it to his friend to at least be enough of a political animal to be more tuned in to what was happening around him.

[Crazedwraith]

I'm not saying Ned didn't fuck up, but he did recognise he needed forces on his side to combat the Lannisters. He just made the mistake of trusting Littlefinger to get him those forces. Ironically the two things he does that really steps out of his honourable nature: bribing the city guard and confessing to treason to save Sansa are the one that's really bring him low.

If he'd stuck to what he could do honourably, even if he had to secretly quit the city and escape to dragonstone to serve Stannis. Thing might have turned out better.

Of course, part of the reason his plans didn't work is Sansa telling Cersei exactly what they were. Yet no-one's blaming her. (not that they should but the same logic applies.)

I can see that people see what he did is stupid and might limit their sympathy for him, mostly what I was arguing against was placing every one's death square on his shoulders and his responsibility when there are many more people directly culpable for those deaths. eg) the people who intentionally set the events off and actually killed people.

[JLTucker]

Anyway, for me its probably good old honest Ned

Fuck Ned. He was a moron and it's his fault all of this shit happened. He bears responsibility for every Throne-related death in Westeros

Bullshit. It's Littlefinger's fault he intentionally instigated the War of Five Kings. Ned merely failed to prevent it.

Wrong. His “honor” was not keeping his mouth shut and letting things be. Instead he got himself and most of his family killed.

[Crazedwraith]

Fuck Ned. He was a moron and it's his fault all of this shit happened. He bears responsibility for every Throne-related death in Westeros

Bullshit. It's Littlefinger's fault he intentionally instigated the War of Five Kings. Ned merely failed to prevent it.

Wrong. His “honor” was not keeping his mouth shut and letting things be. Instead he got himself and most of his family killed.

What is that supposed to mean? Yeah, he got himself killed. That's not the same as 'He bears responsibility for every Throne-related death in Westeros', Not only did Littlefinger organise it intentionally, Stannis and mostly likely Renly were going to raise their banners regardless of what happened to Ned.

Ned didn't start the War of Five kills nor does he bear 'responsibility for every Throne-related death in Westeros'

I'm not saying you have to like him or feel sympathy to him, I'm just saying you can't lay the whole war at his feet.

[Tribble]

Ned's biggest problem was that he was portrayed by Sean Bean, which is usually a death sentence for a character (Sharpe being a notable exception of course). Even though I never read any of the books I knew from the moment he entered the scene that it was only a matter of when and not if he was going to snuff it. He has my sympathy though.

[JLTucker]

CrazedWraith: it means that had he stopped looking for John Arryn’s killer, heeded Cersei’s warning, stopped trolling Jamie, then Littlefinger’s plans would not have gone any further. And given Ned’s conversation with Lord Varys re LIttlefinger, he would have known not to trust him. He was a fucking idiot of the highest order.

[The Romulan Republic]

Anyway, for me its probably good old honest Ned

Fuck Ned. He was a moron and it's his fault all of this shit happened. He bears responsibility for every Throne-related death in Westeros

This is ridiculous. Being outmaneuvered, or even making honest mistakes with good intentions (and the only really crucial mistake he made was trusting Littlefinger, which a lot of people made) does not mean that he bears all the blame for every bad thing that happens (including things he could not possibly have foreseen). Surely the bulk of the blame goes to the evil men and women who deliberately did horrible things, not the honest man who merely failed to stop them.

I see Ned as a tragic figure- a good man for the most part, who tried to do the right thing but got tangled up in conflicting obligations and loyalties and ended up getting swallowed up by a corrupt system. Though his legacy lives on through his children, who in the show are well on their way to defeating his enemies.

To be honest, I think that a lot of the hostility toward Ned is due to his being "honorable", because that offends the internet tough guy/cynics/"ends justify the means" crowd. So they Flanderize Ned, playing up the "honour" as though its the totality of his characterization, and then using it as proof of the folly of morality and the superiority of "necessary evil" and realpolitik. And because enough people push this, it becomes a meme, and other people start to buy into it. Until people aren't seeing Ned Stark the character- they're seeing Ned Stark the caricature. Basically an exaggerated straw man of the naïve, blind idealist.

I mean, I'm not saying that he's perfect, and I can even understand not liking him, for various reasons. But your reaction to him seems very slanted.

What, no Joffrey?

I thought about putting on LittleDick as a joke option (and because he actually has a disturbing number of fanboys online), but I had limited poll options. Hence the "Other" option. And no, that wasn't meant to refer to the Others. I probably should have clarified that.

Edit: I'm not too surprised by the results thus far, except that I'm a bit surprised that Daenerys has yet to net a single vote. Is she really that disliked by fans? Or is it just that their are other people who are liked more?

[The Romulan Republic]

Although, I'm tempted to vote "the smallfolk", since they're the ones who get fucked over the most, and with the least cause, even if we don't get to know them and love them so much as individual characters.

Its arguably one of the flaws of Game of Thrones, and a lot of fiction (particularly fantasy fiction) in general- we primarily follow the nobles, the aristocrats, the "special" people. Which can be interesting, and somewhat understandable, especially since they tend to be in the thick of things and their actions tend to have the biggest effects, but it can lead to forgetting the fact that its the common folk who are getting ground beneath their royal heals, regardless of who wins. Who get raped and killed not for what side they're on or even what side their family is on (not that that excuses it), but simply because they're there, and they're poor, and they're in the way. Who never get to enjoy the benefits of wealth and power before its snatched away from them.

[TheFeniX]

Edit: I'm not too surprised by the results thus far, except that I'm a bit surprised that Daenerys has yet to net a single vote. Is she really that disliked by fans? Or is it just that their are other people who are liked more?

I don't think it has much to do with "like" more than "the only person who can assail her is herself." She near literally has an invincible army at her back if used correctly. She's held back solely by writer's fiat in order to give us another season of GoT. With the apparent speed of the dragons, she could just fly them high over King's Landing every other day, to show people "here's what's coming," during her lunch break.

It's been a while since I've been able to sympathize with Danny. She's rarely, if ever, in a dangerous position. And if she is, it's almost always because she dove head first when she A. had other options and B. allowed the situation to deteriorate due to inaction.

Like I said, she doesn't have to "burn men in their keeps," but she can get out there and show the world what she has. She could just park her army outside King's Landing to siege them and burn any incoming ships with her dragons. And that would even make more sense because how exactly is she feeding her armies that are camped at Dragonstone?

[Crazedwraith]

For my vote and judging by books not the show.... Other -Davos. A smallfolk made good. Man of concience and honour who like most other of those characters doesnt break an oath in the series that I can recall. Loyal to Stannis and a beleiver in the ideal version of him but not blind to to his flaws. Willing to stand up to him for whats right. He's also lost four sons if we go by hurt endure as a measure of sympathy.

Brienne rates very highly on these scores as well.

I'm amazed Cersei beat either of them to the shortlist. Maybe it is a show thing but theres one wonderful thing about her PoV chapters. Shes the opposite of jaime. He got more and more human and sympathetic in his chapters. Cersei's just make it clearer and clearer how batshir insane she is.

[The Romulan Republic]

Edit: I'm not too surprised by the results thus far, except that I'm a bit surprised that Daenerys has yet to net a single vote. Is she really that disliked by fans? Or is it just that their are other people who are liked more?

I don't think it has much to do with "like" more than "the only person who can assail her is herself." She near literally has an invincible army at her back if used correctly. She's held back solely by writer's fiat in order to give us another season of GoT. With the apparent speed of the dragons, she could just fly them high over King's Landing every other day, to show people "here's what's coming," during her lunch break.

One thing I like about the show is that, reputation aside, they've actually shown that dragons aren't invincible game-breakers. They're powerful, but they're not the be-all and end-all of GoT warfare.

I mean, look at the battle against Jaime last season- as Tyrion, I believe, pointed out, an arrow might not slay a dragon (barring a lucky shot to the eye, anyway), but any of those arrows could have shot Danny. And who else can control the dragons, or lead her faction to victory? And Bronn, ordinary sell-sword who struck it rich Bronn, nearly killed Danny and Drogon with a simple piece of field artillery- a fairly advanced weapon for the setting, but hardly unique I'd imagine. And this isn't even getting into the magical side of things, though Bronn shooting Drogon nicely foreshadowed how Viseryon went down.

Plus, even dragons can't be everywhere at once, and could presumably die of natural causes. Danny only has three. Well, now two, against an enemy with one undead dragon of their own. Which kind of proves my point again.

They're a powerful weapon, but they're no more the final word in warfare than having top of the line bombers and helicopters is (and yet, the US lost Vietnam, and managed to royally fuck up Iraq and Afghanistan too).

It's been a while since I've been able to sympathize with Danny. She's rarely, if ever, in a dangerous position. And if she is, it's almost always because she dove head first when she A. had other options and B. allowed the situation to deteriorate due to inaction.

I think that from what I've seen (keeping in mind that I have missed chunks of the show), Danny, like Jon, is driven almost entirely by her heart, not her brain. Her heart often leads her in the right direction, just like Jon (though I also think that she comes off as more arrogant and cruel at times than him, albeit not without reason given her history, and the power she now wields). But her strategy and tactics too often seem to be little more than "I have dragons, bow before me or burn". She's not really subtle. She and Jon both need a Tyrion or a Davos to counterbalance their personality.

Like I said, she doesn't have to "burn men in their keeps," but she can get out there and show the world what she has. She could just park her army outside King's Landing to siege them and burn any incoming ships with her dragons. And that would even make more sense because how exactly is she feeding her armies that are camped at Dragonstone?

Shipping supplies from Essos/raiding the mainland, probably?

For my vote and judging by books not the show.... Other -Davos. A smallfolk made good. Man of concience and honour who like most other of those characters doesnt break an oath in the series that I can recall. Loyal to Stannis and a beleiver in the ideal version of him but not blind to to his flaws. Willing to stand up to him for whats right. He's also lost four sons if we go by hurt endure as a measure of sympathy.

Brienne rates very highly on these scores as well.

I'm amazed Cersei beat either of them to the shortlist. Maybe it is a show thing but theres one wonderful thing about her PoV chapters. Shes the opposite of jaime. He got more and more human and sympathetic in his chapters. Cersei's just make it clearer and clearer how batshir insane she is.

Hmm, forgot about Davos.

As to Cersei... I do think to some extent she gets sympathy because she's sexy, which I'll admit isn't really fair. And possibly also because she has a good actor. But like I said, she also gets sympathy points for having the world's shittiest father followed by the world's shittiest husband (well, that's a slight exaggeration). At least for me.

Though I do agree that I like Jaime more and more as the show goes on.

Another point is that who you like more depends somewhat on weather we're talking books or show, at least for me. I've mostly discussed the show here, because I'm more familiar with it (I've heard nearly all of the first book on audiobook, but that's it). But if we're talking books- well, Ned would still be on my short-list, and perhaps Tyrion, but I'd actually probably put Catelyn on their as well, just in terms of being written as a believable, nuanced character.

[Q99]

What, no Joffrey?

I thought about putting on LittleDick as a joke option (and because he actually has a disturbing number of fanboys online), but I had limited poll options. Hence the "Other" option. And no, that wasn't meant to refer to the Others. I probably should have clarified that.

The White Walkers are a pretty chill bunch...

[TheFeniX]

They're a powerful weapon, but they're no more the final word in warfare than having top of the line bombers and helicopters is (and yet, the US lost Vietnam, and managed to royally fuck up Iraq and Afghanistan too).

IIRC, the original Targaryans showed up in Westeros with 3 dragons and they used them. There was no response for them.

You have ballistas? Fucking great, I'll just fly in from above in the dead of night and burn you out of your home. You march out to meet me, I fall back or sit behind my actual army of Unsullied and Dothraki, and wait till you camp for the night. Then I fucking wreck you.

Unlike modern tech, no one has man-portable laser/radar guided SAMs. They don't even have flashlights, much less spotlights. And their ballistas can't aim up more than maybe 45 degrees.

Now if you fly your dragon straight down the "barrel of the gun" manned by a "Heroic unit" in broad daylight like Danny did to Bron. Sure yea, they're not invincible. Used intelligently, not even brutally, her Dragons + Unsullied + Dothraki are effectively invincible. We've actually seen it on screen: use the dragon to break lines and then get them the fuck out of dodge. Bring them back around at odd angles for strafing runs done at full (or near) speed. Then the ground troops mop up the stragglers.

Or more specifically, just use them for nothing but show to keep your enemies off-balance with feints that keep them safely out of Ballista range.

This is not high-order military thinking.

I think that from what I've seen (keeping in mind that I have missed chunks of the show), Danny, like Jon, is driven almost entirely by her heart, not her brain. Her heart often leads her in the right direction, just like Jon (though I also think that she comes off as more arrogant and cruel at times than him, albeit not without reason given her history, and the power she now wields). But her strategy and tactics too often seem to be little more than "I have dragons, bow before me or burn". She's not really subtle. She and Jon both need a Tyrion or a Davos to counterbalance their personality.

Jon has shit most times and makes dumb moves and comes out on top. Danny has a Royal Flush and is just sitting on it, losing for not playing.

Shipping supplies from Essos/raiding the mainland, probably?

Possibly, but nothing is offered. And this begs the question on why Euron's invincible and warp-capable fleet hasn't annihilated that supply line.

[The Romulan Republic]

IIRC, the original Targaryans showed up in Westeros with 3 dragons and they used them. There was no response for them.

Is it believable that in all the time since, no one has bothered to come up with credible anti-dragon tactics for the dragonless?

You have ballistas? Fucking great, I'll just fly in from above in the dead of night and burn you out of your home. You march out to meet me, I fall back or sit behind my actual army of Unsullied and Dothraki, and wait till you camp for the night. Then I fucking wreck you.

How accurate is dragon-strafing in the dark? What is the maximum range of their fire breath?

Unlike modern tech, no one has man-portable laser/radar guided SAMs. They don't even have flashlights, much less spotlights. And their ballistas can't aim up more than maybe 45 degrees.

Massed volleys of arrows. Kill the riders.

Now if you fly your dragon straight down the "barrel of the gun" manned by a "Heroic unit" in broad daylight like Danny did to Bron. Sure yea, they're not invincible. Used intelligently, not even brutally, her Dragons + Unsullied + Dothraki are effectively invincible. We've actually seen it on screen: use the dragon to break lines and then get them the fuck out of dodge. Bring them back around at odd angles for strafing runs done at full (or near) speed. Then the ground troops mop up the stragglers.

Or more specifically, just use them for nothing but show to keep your enemies off-balance with feints that keep them safely out of Ballista range.

This is not high-order military thinking.

Maybe not, but the fact remains that they're not invulnerable. Can they realistically move fast enough and hit precisely enough from long enough ranges to shatter an army and leave it ready to be mopped up, then withdraw before they can be shot at? Even if that army is prepared and disciplined and has a competent commander?

Plus, they have to land some time. Ambush them on the ground.

Jon has shit most times and makes dumb moves and comes out on top. Danny has a Royal Flush and is just sitting on it, losing for not playing.

I agree that Danny is not a very tactically or strategically brilliant commander, but not because she's just sitting around. If anything, she fights too aggressively, and its cost her one dragon, nearly two and her own life, thus far just in the space of a season.

As I said, she's driven primarily by her heart, not her brain. And while her instincts and impulses aren't always bad, she's fairly blunt in her approach to warfare and ruling a lot of the time.

Possibly, but nothing is offered. And this begs the question on why Euron's invincible and warp-capable fleet hasn't annihilated that supply line.

True, I suppose. But realistically, Euron's fleet can't be everywhere at once. According to Cersei, right now its shipping in mercenaries from Essos.

And I bet you if it started hanging around Dragonstone, it'd get roasted by dragon fire real fast.