Star Trek: Discovery

[FedRebel]

I'm looking forward to the Discovery writers completely ignoring the differences between their klingons and TOS klingons. Despite only 10 years in-universe separating them.

Apparently it's a lost house in hibernation for 200 years

I'm more interested in them ignoring the differences in the uniforms (and why both the Shenzhou and Discovery are using The Enterprise's insignia.) Especially since the Enterprise is meeting the Talosians precisely when Discovery kicks off.

Personally I completely tune out everything I know about previous Star Trek while watching Discovery. Otherwise there are too many problems with continuity.

If I may make an personal assumption: Discovery is a new timeline created by Archer stopping/preventing the Temporal Cold War in the Prime-Timeline. The Prime timeline is where the temporal cold war has happened/ happens/ will happen /will have happened. (Daniels put Archer back into the Prime-timeline to stabilize the macguffing field)

I just look at it as a hard reboot. Nothing applies past or future.

Overall, I can...adjust to "Battlestar: Discovery"...just not as Prime Trek.

[bilateralrope]

Does anyone else think Discovery would work better as a post DS9/VOY series ?

- If they used a new race instead of their Klingons, my complaints about the comparisons between Discovery and TOS Klingons wouldn't apply. If it's a race that has been around, but vanished around the ENT era they could keep the 'Vulcan Hello'.
- Holograms for communicating is a technology that was tested on DS9. Holoemitters all over the ship is something we saw on Voyager.
- TOS often had the Enterprise as the only ship in the area. DS9 had larger fleets.

They apparently established somewhat peaceful interaction with the klingons. So in this case, yes, violence is the solution.

Is that detail new to Discovery or not ?

No.

They do this several times to Klingons. Picard suddenly yelling and squaring up to guards, Riker on his officer exchange attacks the first officer, Nog yells at Martok to move along the promenade, just off the top of my head.

Nearly all times this happens, the Klingons at first look shocked, then annoyed, then they burst out laughing and make a comment about "courage" and then move on.


This is how Klingons work.

Those are TNG era Klingons. Discovery is set 10 years before TOS, so you should be comparing them to TOS Klingons.

I'm looking forward to the Discovery writers completely ignoring the differences between their klingons and TOS klingons. Despite only 10 years in-universe separating them.

Apparently it's a lost house in hibernation for 200 years

What about the other Klingons that showed up when the beacon was lit ?

[Simon_Jester]

Granted, there's a bit of a gap between "to get Klingons to talk to you, yell at them," and "to get Klingon spaceships to talk at you,
chuck a nuke in their general direction."

I mean, if the Klingons really do insist that you shoot at hem before talking... You have to wonder how the Klingons would cope with a really violent or determined threat. One that doesn't just exchange a few blows and then laugh and start talking, but just straight-up murders you. Would they find that unnerving?

But the only thing that is still stupid is the Federations "we come in peace crap.

Would "shoot first ask questions later" be more appealing? If so, Star Trek might not be the show for you...

I aloso noted the whole Darwin award part with "uuu look Klingons, lets wait here and die" "Why run from danger when we can be goodie two shoes retards in space"

Having not yet seen the pilot (though not being spoiler-averse) I couldn't comment.

- ST:D is set 10 years before TOS. In TOS, the only non-human on the ship was Spock. Here we have species never heard of before.

The flip side of this is that within a decade or two after TOS (in the "movie era," the Federation contains a huge number of species; the Federation Council of the 2280s has a lot of diversity, including a number of species never seen before or since. Unless we assume the Federation was literally just Earth in 2260 and ballooned to huge size by 2280 or so, which seems kind of unlikely...

Yeah, we basically have to acknowledge the Doylist issue here, which is that the makeup budget for TOS wouldn't stretch to having a large number of alien bridge crew appearing frequently. Which is why most of the aliens we actually saw were either indistinguishable from humans, or indistinguishable from humans with some kind of body paint on.

- We could create a new vulcan character for our story. But lets used an existing character. One that creates a lot of problems.

Now this one I agree with.

Those are TNG era Klingons. Discovery is set 10 years before TOS, so you should be comparing them to TOS Klingons.

I'm looking forward to the Discovery writers completely ignoring the differences between their klingons and TOS klingons. Despite only 10 years in-universe separating them.

Apparently it's a lost house in hibernation for 200 years

What about the other Klingons that showed up when the beacon was lit ?[/quote]The artistic problem is that to make the Klingons of Discovery similar to TOS Klingons, you have to basically ignore all non-TOS characterization of Klingons. Ten or so seasons of Worf? Irrelevant. Multiple story arcs involving Klingon politics? Irrelevant. Multiple movies exploring interaction with some very memorable Klingon characters, like [i}Star Trek III[/i] and VI? Gone.

It's unsurprising that the writers decided that TOS nostalgia just ain't worth it.

[bilateralrope]

The flip side of this is that within a decade or two after TOS (in the "movie era," the Federation contains a huge number of species; the Federation Council of the 2280s has a lot of diversity, including a number of species never seen before or since. Unless we assume the Federation was literally just Earth in 2260 and ballooned to huge size by 2280 or so, which seems kind of unlikely...

Yeah, we basically have to acknowledge the Doylist issue here, which is that the makeup budget for TOS wouldn't stretch to having a large number of alien bridge crew appearing frequently. Which is why most of the aliens we actually saw were either indistinguishable from humans, or indistinguishable from humans with some kind of body paint on.

Fair point.

The artistic problem is that to make the Klingons of Discovery similar to TOS Klingons, you have to basically ignore all non-TOS characterization of Klingons. Ten or so seasons of Worf? Irrelevant. Multiple story arcs involving Klingon politics? Irrelevant. Multiple movies exploring interaction with some very memorable Klingon characters, like [i}Star Trek III[/i] and VI? Gone.

The difference in behavior between TOS and TNG Klingons can be explained by a major cultural shift over the decades between them. The movies are a bit of a problem there. Discovery makes the problem worse, by requiring a major shift from Discovery Klingons to TOS Klingons in 10 years.

I've thought of one way that Discovery could make their Klingons work, along with making the movie Klingons fit better: Include some TOS Klingons. Show them as being part of the Empire, ones engaged in the kinds of activities Kirk encountered them doing. The ones sent to deal with the Federation, while the rest of the Empire are doing other things. For example, TOS Klingons deal with the Federation while bumpy forehead Klingons are busy fighting some other war.

It's unsurprising that the writers decided that TOS nostalgia just ain't worth it.

Deciding that TOS nostalgia isn't worth it would have been a good move. But they didn't. They chose to set the show 10 years before TOS. They chose to involve Sarek when they could have used a new vulcan. They clearly wanted to invoke some nostalgia, while ignoring parts of TOS whenever they feel like it (eg, coming up with a new design of Klingons instead of using any of the existing designs). Them wanting to have it both ways is the core of my complaint.

[Xisiqomelir]

I dunno if Enterprise just lowered the bar so much, but despite the Hippo-faces and Stargate costumes I liked watching these Klingons fuck around.

Mildly off-topic, does Michelle Yeoh basically work for Netflix now? I have zero objections to that

[Dartzap]

Watched both enroute to work this morning, will probably watch again on a bigger screen, as it's very pretty.

Felt like a nice combo of Kelvinverse visuals and, - although it's still pretty early to get a true grasp - DS9 story telling.

Plenty of treknobabble, moral quandries and cheesey lines.


To think we have this and Orville at the same time.... :whatatimetobealive:

Overall intro is 7.5/10. Netflix money well used.

[Adam Reynolds]

It really is too bad for Americans that we are stuck having to pay another subscription fee for literally this one show.

Is this enough of a narrative show that it would be better to wait and watch most of it at once? That would certainly be cheaper.

[biostem]

I can see the Federation setting a policy that, if they have to choose between prisoners dying or escaping, they choose to let them escape in most cases.

A policy like that, sure; Allowing a prisoner to talk the computer into changing its mind, no.

[Burak Gazan]

I would like to note that this, "no one seen in 100 years" thing is interesting, and way too much of a coincidence . It's 2253 now, right? Ok, fair enough. In 2154, late in the year , the Augment Virus swept the Klingon Empire. This was cured by the Denebulan Doctor Phlox. 99 years ago. I'm willing to round off, no problem. But we are to now believe, that as soon as Enterprise and Columbia left Klingon space, they sealed themselves off and hid for a century?? Seems very out of character for the Klingon. In the extreme. Plus, it is going to be amusing when someone asks them in their feedback shows , how come we don't see any Constitution-class starships in the fleet? For THEY ARE in service, right now. The look is pure JJ-verse. I'm almost willing to give the Klingon's look a pass. But they seem to have gotten more retarded, not smarter. Start a war for shits and giggles? With zero intel , and no idea how advanced the Federation may have become? What if they have jumped you in tech? (which actually happened in the real TOS-verse) It's almost like they never thought this thing completely through in the writers room. Plus, apparently I hear the word "Romulan" is a complete No-NO there

[FaxModem1]

I would like to note that this, "no one seen in 100 years" thing is interesting, and way too much of a coincidence . It's 2253 now, right? Ok, fair enough. In 2154, late in the year , the Augment Virus swept the Klingon Empire. This was cured by the Denebulan Doctor Phlox. 99 years ago. I'm willing to round off, no problem. But we are to now believe, that as soon as Enterprise and Columbia left Klingon space, they sealed themselves off and hid for a century?? Seems very out of character for the Klingon. In the extreme. Plus, it is going to be amusing when someone asks them in their feedback shows , how come we don't see any Constitution-class starships in the fleet? For THEY ARE in service, right now. The look is pure JJ-verse. I'm almost willing to give the Klingon's look a pass. But they seem to have gotten more retarded, not smarter. Start a war for shits and giggles? With zero intel , and no idea how advanced the Federation may have become? What if they have jumped you in tech? (which actually happened in the real TOS-verse) It's almost like they never thought this thing completely through in the writers room. Plus, apparently I hear the word "Romulan" is a complete No-NO there

Maybe the virus is what crumbled the Klingon Empire? 24 Houses vying for control due to all the Ethnic purging, etc.?

Honestly, I doubt this has any connection to TOS or the rest of the Prime-universe, and aside from having things like Harry Mudd, Sarek, and Klingons in them, that we shouldn't treat this as part of it.

Note that these Klingons entomb their bodies to their ship, and do not throw them away, as the Klingons of the original timeline do. Mostly, they are throwing away whatever they don't want, and it's impossible to reconcile the two different canons.

[Burak Gazan]

Until THEY stop screaming that it DOES,then I must only take them at their word. Even if that looks like a pile of bullshit
And the problem with the houses , well; remember when they said we were going to see all sorts of Klingons, including the ones we all familiar with? Nope. With little variation, they ALL looked like the ones in the mortuary. I tend to agree, this is NOT the prime timeline. But they keep insisting it is. So lets see how it plays out

[Knife]

Trek prime died with Nemesis, with a guest appearance in that god awful show Enterprise.

That said, I watched Discovery, sitting on my couch cringing. Expecting at any moment that large globs of shit would be expelled from my TV, aimed at my head. And at no time did that happen.

Visually, I thought it was pretty. Story wise (only watched the first episode) I thought was ok. Sure, sitting there a couple hundred meters off a Klingon battle-something was dumb. Doubly dumb to sit there and do the standard dumb fuck Federation 'I can't attack first' even though there was actually a logical argument of doing so. Sitting a couple hundred meters off the Klingon battle-something with a blinding light and not being able to see, especially after accepting the fact they have some sort of cloak/stealth/scatter screen; was incredible dumb.

That being said, it made me empathize with the main character even though it makes me think the Capt'n is a dumb ass. The Klingon's I'd thought I'd hate, I actually get. So cool.

I'm actually stuck, and impressed, with something as simple and dumb as the bridge of the ship being on the bottom of the craft. Kind of thought it was different and fun. I like the setting, I like the dark (but not grim dark) and kind of like the characters.

TOS trek died a long time ago. TNG carried it for a long time including DS9 and Voy. But it's gone. There are parts of JJ verse that are cool. They actually tried hard to put TOS type ship in. I wish they'd have put those things in this series. That said, I'm willing to give it a couple more episodes which is big, since I fully expected to watch one and rage about it.

Still not thrilled with what I've seen of the USS Discovery though, that fucking thing is ugly.

[biostem]

Yeah... the blinding light thing kind of struck me - are you saying that they literally have no way of making the windows opaque, or otherwise tinting them. I can accept that the light was giving off some particles that made the hull resonate, but they didn't even have any curtains or blast panels? Are we to understand that the Vulcans are still withholding information from the Federation, at this point in history, (with regards to their first contact with the Klingons)?

[bilateralrope]

I can see the Federation setting a policy that, if they have to choose between prisoners dying or escaping, they choose to let them escape in most cases.

A policy like that, sure; Allowing a prisoner to talk the computer into changing its mind, no.

The only detail that bothers me about that is that the computer is intelligent enough to understand her argument. Something that seems beyond the TOS Enterprise computer. AI never went well in TOS.

Until THEY stop screaming that it DOES,then I must only take them at their word.

Indeed. They could have easily gone with a post DS9/VOY series. They could have set it 10 years before the Abrams Trek movies. Either would have worked. They could have done another Trek reboot, which probably would have worked. Instead they advertised it as TOS era in the prime timeline.

Until they say that it's not part of the prime timeline, I'm going to treat it like it is.

Sure, sitting there a couple hundred meters off a Klingon battle-something was dumb.

Agreed. Backing off to a safe distance would have been a smart move.

Doubly dumb to sit there and do the standard dumb fuck Federation 'I can't attack first' even though there was actually a logical argument of doing so.

The 'logical' reason to do so was:
- First officer uses a personal contact. The fact that it happened in her quarters, not the bridge or the ready room, makes me wonder how much the captian knows about who the contact is.
- Personal contact gives information that sounds like something the vulcans should have shared.
- First officer was one of the few survivors of a klingon attack on a civilian population.

So now the captian has a choice:
- Stick to Federation protocol.
- Trust the word of a human first officer with reason to hate klingons when she says to attack first.

Sitting a couple hundred meters off the Klingon battle-something with a blinding light and not being able to see, especially after accepting the fact they have some sort of cloak/stealth/scatter screen; was incredible dumb.

Lets try navigating to a safe distance in an area with at least one ship capable of hiding from us while we are completely blind. That will go well.

Yeah... the blinding light thing kind of struck me - are you saying that they literally have no way of making the windows opaque, or otherwise tinting them.

Didn't someone say that the tinting was at maximum ?

I can accept that the light was giving off some particles that made the hull resonate, but they didn't even have any curtains or blast panels?

They did have blast panels later in the fight.

Are we to understand that the Vulcans are still withholding information from the Federation, at this point in history, (with regards to their first contact with the Klingons)?

I see only two possible conclusions:
- The vulcans are withholding information for no apparent reason.
- Sarek was lying. Again, for no apparent reason.

[bilateralrope]

It really is too bad for Americans that we are stuck having to pay another subscription fee for literally this one show.

That is a big problem. I doubt I'd be watching Discovery if I had to pay for CBS all access. But, since it's on Netflix here, I'll be watching it.

Is this enough of a narrative show that it would be better to wait and watch most of it at once? That would certainly be cheaper.

If you are subscribed to Netflix, try using a VPN to make Netflix think you're in a country where it had Star Trek Discovery. I know the reverse worked when my ISP was running a VPN to let us onto the US Netflix. I could switch between US and New Zealand Netflix by just turning the VPN on and off, the same Netflix account worked for both.

[biostem]

Didn't someone say that the tinting was at maximum ?

So "fully opaque" or "completely shut the windows" are not options? Still seems odd - especially since the light didn't seem any brighter when Mikey went to her quarters. The fact that the light also cast a noticeable glow on Sarek's hologram, or he was able to lean on her desk, were odd IMO.

[JLTucker]

I like the show but wish the acting didn’t suck so much. And the pilot is too similar too Abrams’ Star Trek 09.

[Burak Gazan]

It is annoying, that still, they have the JJ big window... and they persist in putting the bridge of the ship on top and a big, fat target. Didn't ANY of these guys ever see a goddamned WWII movie and comprehend what "CIC'' is, for the love of god? I get that they still want to pretend they are Jacques Cousteau on the Calypso, but that boat wasn't ARMED to the teeth and facing a nasty, hostile galaxy..
Ah, Jim, what happened to the fleet...

[JLTucker]

Good news is that
Spoiler

Michelle Yeoh is no longer on the show, so we don't have to suffer through her shitty performance.

[Patroklos]

Its a pure TVism. They want their characters connected to the action, which in this case takes place inside a single room most of the time.

I think you can do the CIC thing correctly such as BSG. But there was never really any back and forth between Cylons and humans talking to each other. The BSG CIC got is drama from essentially being a bunker the humans huddled while darkly wondering "will I survive this?" as the missiles hit. In Trek the are CONSTANTLY talking to anyone and anything via that window, and much of the drama of the show comes from those interactions.

I don't think Trek has to do it that way, but it works for them. Also remember the trend was set back in the 60s, when TV drama was rarely anything more than shot/counter shot of people talking. The idea of people just staring at screens all the time was for the common viewer unrealistic because despite real world warships going that route, John Q public didn't use screens for anything except watching TV.

[Burak Gazan]

Maybe that's the problem that has infected some real-life things (eg - See multiple collisions -at -sea recently) the staring at screen thingy. People of a certain age are so damned addicted to it, they can't possible think of doing anything else. Maybe it's the midset; having been an actual navigating officer, I see the value of both looking out the window AND the tactical display. The Gods-eye View would have been a hell of a thing to have when a rook, but it seems abused now.

[Patroklos]

Agreed, as a bridge officer myself people are reliant on technology that people really don't understand the limitations of. Knowing when to look up from the screen or how to continue being effective when that screen is not available is vital.

Now, from a hard scifi setting there really is no looking up from the screen because everything happens at a distance and a light level that there is nothing to look at if you did. But not in ST (or SW for that matter), where everything is really close. You really can direct ST combat like a ship of line of old based on how they do things on screen. Again a TVism, even I don't want to watch a show (at least not episodically) where the visuals are just a ship hovering on screen with zero context clues to attitude or motion, imperceptibly firing invisible lasers and particle beams we never see the effect of, only to barely have time to note the microsecond flash of an enemy nuclear warhead before the reduced to plasma and scrap (via invisible radiation) ship expands off screen in less than a second. You can make that really exciting in print, you have to be a cinematic genius for that to work on screen. And lets be honest here, there haven't been any especially competent people working in ST let alone geniuses, in a very long time.

[houser2112]

Again a TVism, even I don't want to watch a show (at least not episodically) where the visuals are just a ship hovering on screen with zero context clues to attitude or motion, imperceptibly firing invisible lasers and particle beams we never see the effect of, only to barely have time to note the microsecond flash of an enemy nuclear warhead before the reduced to plasma and scrap (via invisible radiation) ship expands off screen in less than a second. You can make that really exciting in print, you have to be a cinematic genius for that to work on screen. And lets be honest here, there haven't been any especially competent people working in ST let alone geniuses, in a very long time.

I don't think even a cinematic genius could pull it off. When the number one rule of making visual content is "show, don't tell", what is there to do if there's nothing to show? It would be about as interesting as a game of Battleship. "Firing lasers, sir. Hit!"

[Patroklos]

I agree generally.

That said, I think you can make a very niche product showing the banality of modern space warfare. The boring yet nerve wracking trauma of being trapped in a metal box watching your impending doom approach impersonally on a screen, helpless to do anything about it, a slave to the limitations of your equipment where no amount of human effort through strength, patience, resilience or even intelligence will change anything.

Think submarine movies like Das Boot, where most of the movie never leaves the pressure vessel, the characters are forced to just ride out whatever is happening to them more often than not with little agency to change things once discovered.

[Mange]

A meh. Not terrible, but not very good. A few thoughts:

* The (again) reimagined Klingons looked pretty bad. They could hardly move and the actors didn't seem quite able to articulate their mouths.

* Though the series is set in the Prime Universe, it shares visuals with the Kelvin Timeline, down to the awful JJ'esque lens flare. The phasers acts more like they did in the Kelvin Timeline. The stupid light thing aside (that magically seems to have been observed throughout the quadrant), to quote the Star Trek Writer's Guide about the viewscreen: 'This is not a window'

* Starfleet regularly communicated with hologram technology ten years before Kirk? What happened?

* The commander and the first officer beams over to an enemy vessel without any backup...

* I suppose that Michael is supposed to be a bit stiff, but I think Sonequa Martin-Green came off as both wooden and stiff.

Let's see where this goes...