Colin Trevorrow replaced with Abrams as 'Star Wars: Episode IX' Director

[Khaat]

I'm just about done being patient when you trot out "she could be a Skywalker" as an excuse for crap characterization and writing. Rey is a Mary Sue: she is better than established characters for no reason. An explanation in a kids' book, or "maybe in the sequel", or whatever the fuck else excuse they/you care to make is just a lame ass excuse: tell the story, include your character or don't, but don't expect me to let you get away with a half-cooked shitfest writing and pretend it's "TEH AWESOM3!" when you justify it in other media: you had over 2 hours run time, there was plenty of time to introduce your characters properly and tell us about their adventure! Luke was a Skywalker when he was introduced: he got his ass handed to him by everybody.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm just about done being patient when you trot out "she could be a Skywalker" as an excuse for crap characterization and writing.

Oh, I beg your pardon. I'd hate to try your patience.

Also, I said fuck all about characterization in this case. I was talking about a clear canon precedent for her level of ability. Don't like it? Whine to George Lucas, not to me.

Rey is a Mary Sue: she is better than established characters for no reason.

I fucking loath the term "Mary Sue", because it has come to have little meaning beyond "character I don't like" or "female character who's just as capable and lucky as male action heroes".

Its original meaning, an author self-insert, has zero applicability here so far as I am aware. Thus, any use of it is a meaningless non-argument, substituting an insult for actual substantive criticism.

An explanation in a kids' book, or "maybe in the sequel", or whatever the fuck else excuse they/you care to make is just a lame ass excuse: tell the story, include your character or don't, but don't expect me to let you get away with a half-cooked shitfest writing and pretend it's "TEH AWESOM3!" when you justify it in other media: you had over 2 hours run time, there was plenty of time to introduce your characters properly and tell us about their adventure! Luke was a Skywalker when he was introduced: he got his ass handed to him by everybody.

Well, until he blew up the Death Star at the end of the first film, a feat even a Rebel fighter pilot thought was outright impossible, while being one of the ten percent or so of Rebel pilots to survive the battle despite never having flown an X-wing before.

But he had a dick, so that's perfectly plausible, I guess.

[Khaat]

Also, I said fuck all about characterization in this case. I was talking about a clear canon precedent for her level of ability. Don't like it? Whine to George Lucas, not to me.

Yeah, Lucas gave us Luke Skywalker long before he jumped the shark and had to shoe-horn Anakin into three films.

Rey is a Mary Sue: she is better than established characters for no reason.

I fucking loath the term "Mary Sue", because it has come to have little meaning beyond "character I don't like" or "female character who's just as capable and lucky as male action heroes".

Its original meaning, an author self-insert, has zero applicability here so far as I am aware. Thus, any use of it is a meaningless non-argument, substituting an insult for actual substantive criticism.

Actually, you stopped reading too soon when you looked up "Mary Sue": it isn't "just an author self-insert" the trope-origin was in fact a caricature of "a new character who is better than established characters for no discernible reason". Just like child-Anakin is a Gary Stu. But, hey, stop reading when you find some evidence to support your position.

An explanation in a kids' book, or "maybe in the sequel", or whatever the fuck else excuse they/you care to make is just a lame ass excuse: tell the story, include your character or don't, but don't expect me to let you get away with a half-cooked shitfest writing and pretend it's "TEH AWESOM3!" when you justify it in other media: you had over 2 hours run time, there was plenty of time to introduce your characters properly and tell us about their adventure! Luke was a Skywalker when he was introduced: he got his ass handed to him by everybody.

Well, until he blew up the Death Star at the end of the first film, a feat even a Rebel fighter pilot thought was outright impossible, while being one of the ten percent or so of Rebel pilots to survive the battle despite never having flown an X-wing before.

But he had a dick, so that's perfectly plausible, I guess.

Ok, thing to file away: TRR is into dick.

Hmm, you're right: that one anonymous young pilot (probably the star of a series of EU novels since) is the absolute arbiter of what is or is not possible. Especially since the rebel leadership chose to commit all available starfighter resources to the plan instead of just running the fuck away. Good thing the next line Luke drops is something about bull's-eyeing womp rats in his T-16 back home, and relative target size, clearly defining that he only ever rode around in his landspeeder. Huh, except that his landspeeder was defined as being a different thing (and not a T-16), when he was selling it at Mos Eisley.... Oh, and that part where Han saved his ass from Vader's wing of TIEs, so Luke had time to make the shot.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, Lucas gave us Luke Skywalker long before he jumped the shark and had to shoe-horn Anakin into three films.

See previous comments regarding Luke.

And Anakin's abilities are canon, like it or not.

Actually, you stopped reading too soon when you looked up "Mary Sue": it isn't "just an author self-insert" the trope-origin was in fact a caricature of "a new character who is better than established characters for no discernible reason". Just like child-Anakin is a Gary Stu. But, hey, stop reading when you find some evidence to support your position.

Oh go fuck yourself.

I didn't come here looking for a fight. But apparently, my disagreeing with you about a Star Wars film means you have to make it personal and be a condescending shit heel, and insinuate that I am both ignorant (of a term literally anyone who ever engages in SF debates on-line is likely familiar with) and dishonest.

Kiss my ass.

Now, I looked up the term again, and quickly found a couple of definitions, though neither does your argument much good:

From TV Tropes: "The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment."

Which is both sexist (the term singles out female characters specifically), and inapplicable to Rey on at least two different grounds, as TFA is not a fanfic and there is no evidence that Rey is an idealized stand-in for JJ Abrams or whatever.

And from Wikipedia: "A Mary Sue (if female) or Gary Stu (if male) is often identified as an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. However, with this definition, you rope in many common, good characters in mainstream media. More accurately, a Mary Sue is a character who warps the reality around them, making a Sue-centric story. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both sexes."

Which is closer to your definition, but still acknowledges mine, and you might want to take note of the qualifying second sentence.

I'd also say that "warps the reality around them, making a Sue-centric story" is vague to the point of meaninglessness. Applied broadly enough, it could apply to any protagonist, particularly any protagonist with supernatural abilities and/or a "chosen one" role.

Ok, thing to file away: TRR is into dick.

Oh, hey, questioning my sexual orientation. I'm more offended by the fact that you would resort to schoolyard homophobia than I am by the (factually incorrect, as it happens) insinuation that I am gay.

Hmm, you're right: that one anonymous young pilot (probably the star of a series of EU novels since) is the absolute arbiter of what is or is not possible.

Never said that, did I now? But one assumes that he has at least some idea of what an X-wing fighter is typically capable of. If you're not being a stubborn, dishonest jack ass, anyway.

Especially since the rebel leadership chose to commit all available starfighter resources to the plan instead of just running the fuck away.

Because it was literally a case of losing the war if they couldn't destroy the Death Star. Missed that minor detail, did you? I'm not surprised- its only the basis of the main plot of two entire films.

Gambling on a small chance when the alternative is absolute defeat is the smart move. It doesn't change the fact that that was considered an exceedingly difficult shot, possibly impossible for a non-Force user.

But hey, having misrepresented my arguments, I suppose you might as well misrepresent canon evidence too.

Good thing the next line Luke drops is something about bull's-eyeing womp rats in his T-16 back home, and relative target size, clearly defining that he only ever rode around in his landspeeder.

Oh, look, more dishonesty. Since my argument was never that Luke had only driven a land speeder, but that he had never flown an X-wing before.

Huh, except that his landspeeder was defined as being a different thing (and not a T-16), when he was selling it at Mos Eisley.... Oh, and that part where Han saved his ass from Vader's wing of TIEs, so Luke had time to make the shot.

You mean like how Rey had Finn helping her as gunner during the Tie chase, and how he wore down and wounded Ren a bit for her before their duel?

[Khaat]

See previous comments regarding Luke.

And Anakin's abilities are canon, like it or not.

Well, one: I'm not stalking you, so whatever point you think you made about Luke? I don't see it. I have taken issue with in the characterization of Rey (and Anakin in Ep I.) Feel free to repeat yourself some more, and point out what point you think were making that isn't in the last seven pages. I used Luke as a counterpoint example of a hero with limits, faults, and growth.

And two, I just did (liked it not), you raging egomaniac. Do you honestly think "canon is beyond critique!"? The other PT Eps, Anakin wasn't doing things outside of the realm of what a ten-years-on student strong in the Force would be expected to do, and hardly that far removed from what the rest of the stronger Jedi were doing. Did you miss the important part, there? Ten Years Training later. And there was that other thing, Obi Wan was an even match in their battle at Mustafar, only the positional advantage gave him victory.

I didn't come here looking for a fight. But apparently, my disagreeing with you about a Star Wars film means you have to make it personal and be a condescending shit heel, and insinuate that I am both ignorant (of a term literally anyone who ever engages in SF debates on-line is likely familiar with) and dishonest.

Kiss my ass.

I never said you were dishonest. I insinuated that you were lazy and a poor researcher. For a writer, you aren't thinking meta here, and you stop short where it causes offense against a fictional (female) character. A writer has to see past the immediate, obvious, social offense and see the writing offense that created it: look to the root of the issue; it isn't that Rey is female, it's that her character is unnecessarily "(Wo)Man With No Name". From age: left on Jakku to age: start TFA, Rey's story doesn't need to be a secret.

Wow, for someone who just fucking asked me to feel however I wanted to feel, you certainly take this all very personally when I disagree with your "everything can be worked out later" mantra, specifically when I began my address with how this is poor writing and characterization. That a good screenwriter won't leave a giant hook unanswered in the movie for the kiddie books, or posters, or ICS books? A good writer can have a strong (insert any) protagonist without some justification, leaving only the parts that need to be mysteries mysterious? "Hey, a wookiee at Niima station would have been too complicated! A few binary-whistling droids rolling around, too, would be hard. We'll save it for the comic books and novel adaptations and kiddie guides to Star Wars! You can't expect to get a full story for only the $15 ticket price! Merchandising!"

Hmm, you're right: that one anonymous young pilot (probably the star of a series of EU novels since) is the absolute arbiter of what is or is not possible.

Never said that, did I now? But one assumes that he has at least some idea of what an X-wing fighter is typically capable of. If you're not being a stubborn, dishonest jack ass, anyway.

Actually, you wrote

...a feat even a Rebel fighter pilot thought was outright impossible...

Now where, in all of a galaxy far, far away, would I have gotten the impression that you thought that one young pilot's opinion was really, really important? Oh, right: when you used it to make out that the plan was "possibly impossible". Y'know, in a scene where the tactical analysis is on the board and even the veteran pilots are "sure, we can do this!" So fresh-faced kid next to Luke? Pardon me if I take his comment as hyperbole, and not narrative fact.

Especially since the rebel leadership chose to commit all available starfighter resources to the plan instead of just running the fuck away.

But hey, having misrepresented my arguments, I suppose you might as well misrepresent canon evidence too.

Yeah, there, PUT UP OR SHUT UP:
Where am I misrepresenting your arguments? With direct quotes? By not assuming an off-the-cuff line from a junior pilot is gospel?
Where am I misrepresenting canon? By providing more canon evidence?

Good thing the next line Luke drops is something about bull's-eyeing womp rats in his T-16 back home, and relative target size, clearly defining that he only ever rode around in his landspeeder.

Oh, look, more dishonesty. Since my argument was never that Luke had only driven a land speeder, but that he had never flown an X-wing before.

Odd, I was showing you what a fleshed out backstory for a character looks like: Luke has reason to be able to do what little he does in ANH. We were shown and told what he did before the story, and he wasn't better than established (veteran pilot) characters; Rey doesn't have that in TFA, unless you collect all the other media; this defines poor screenwriting. It certainly isn't the characters' fault: we can only blame the writer (and possibly director and editor, if they mangle the script).

The one time Luke wasn't handed his ass in ANH: that one shot he took on the 2m exhaust port, that the rebel leadership sent them to take. Desperate moment? Sure, dramatically tense. "Possibly impossible"? Red Leader didn't think so. Gold Leader didn't, either. Hell, Red Leader came damned close, considering he was still being chased by Vader's wing.

And offending your personal, hallowed, sanctified definition of Mary Sue? Fuck you and fuck that. The trope was never "just a self-insert", considering it began as a caricature of unjustified characters that were also self-inserts. And consider this is a trope reflecting bad writing. Does the trope name target female characters specifically? Yes, but no more than "Gary Stu" targets male characters specifically. You want to Fight The Power? Start a thread and lament about how for so many years unjustified male characters were accepted no-questions-asked in media. Want to be a better writer? Consider how a handful of small changes would have altered the baseless skillset for this character.

So let's count my sins:
1) I brought up an example of poor characterizations in a previous outing by the director named to helm the final film of the Sequel Trilogy
2) I offended TRR's shrine of his personal definition of "Mary Sue"
3) I made a stupid crack by twisting his words, once. Okay, for that, I apologize; it was a juvenile jab. Mea culpa.

[Patroklos]

But he had a dick, so that's perfectly plausible, I guess.

Do you want to talk about things nicely including actual arguments, or are you just going to accuse everyone who disagrees with you as being a misogynist to avoid addressing arguments? Can your worldview contemplate reasons for disliking things other than being a "ist" of some sort?

You know for a fucking fact Anakin gets just as much, if not more, flack for being a Mary Sue (as well as a thousand other things) as Rey.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, one: I'm not stalking you, so whatever point you think you made about Luke? I don't see it.

You know, about two posts back, when I referred to Luke's destruction of the Death Star as proof that he also exhibited abilities that might be seen as implausible? Yet never gets called a Mary Sue for?

Now, granted, the presentation was better in Episode IV than in Episode VII, absolutely. But the fact remains that Luke gets a pass on extraordinary abilities, where Rey does not.

And I find it just a bit creepy that you apparently feel the need to clarify that you are not stalking me when no one accused you of doing so.

I have taken issue with in the characterization of Rey (and Anakin in Ep I.) Feel free to repeat yourself some more, and point out what point you think were making that isn't in the last seven pages.

If I repeat myself, its because people keep missing the point, or the same topics keep coming up over and over again.

And I don't care if you think that its poor characterization. I wouldn't even necessarily disagree, except that you have conducted yourself as such an incoherent and offensive manner in this discussion that I now feel an urge to dispute anything you say on principle. But the fact remains that their is a pretty clear canon precedent for a Force user, particularly one of the Skywalker lineage, demonstrating the level of ability that you evidently find so implausible in Rey.

My point is not that TFA is some flawless gem, as you seem to think (or pretend to think). Merely that the criticisms of it are exaggerated, specifically that Rey's powers can be explained in the context of the Star Wars franchise, and that most of the issues with it are explicable/fixable.

I wasn't even addressing you until you got irrationally offended by a conversation I had with someone else in which I cited the canon precedent of Anakin Skywalker, and noted that Rey might also be a Skywalker.

I used Luke as a counterpoint example of a hero with limits, faults, and growth.

And I will (again) respond by pointing out that Luke, like Rey, exhibits abilities that might be seen as implausible.

And two, I just did (liked it not), you raging egomaniac.

What the hell are you even referring to here? I'd refute the accusation of being an egomaniac, except that I can't for the life of me figure out what prompted it in the first place, or to what you are referring.

Do you honestly think "canon is beyond critique!"?

Um, no?

But it is canon that Force users can do the shit that Rey does. You don't have to like that it is. But it is regardless of weather you like it or not.

The other PT Eps, Anakin wasn't doing things outside of the realm of what a ten-years-on student strong in the Force would be expected to do, and hardly that far removed from what the rest of the stronger Jedi were doing. Did you miss the important part, there? Ten Years Training later. And there was that other thing, Obi Wan was an even match in their battle at Mustafar, only the positional advantage gave him victory.

Edit: Okay, what the hell just happened? I wrote a full reply, posted it...

And only half of it posted.

[The Romulan Republic]

But he had a dick, so that's perfectly plausible, I guess.

Do you want to talk about things nicely including actual arguments, or are you just going to accuse everyone who disagrees with you as being a misogynist to avoid addressing arguments? Can your worldview contemplate reasons for disliking things other than being a "ist" of some sort?

I'm not aware of any obligation to be "nice" on this board, but I'll try to be civil if you are, although this is a rather accusatory way to start a "nice" talk.

I have never accused anyone of being a misogynist unless I felt that they were actually being a misogynist. In fact, I haven't accused anyone of being a misogynist exactly here. I have said that "Mary Sue" is a sexist term (though I doubt Khaat meant it that way), and that people give Luke less flack because he's a man. Which I think is, to some extent, true. It is certainly not the only, or the primary, argument that I have made in this thread.

You don't get to start off with a false implication of dishonest debating against me, and then blame me when things aren't civil.

You know for a fucking fact Anakin gets just as much, if not more, flack for being a Mary Sue (as well as a thousand other things) as Rey.

Yes, he does.

My point in bringing up Anakin was not to say that Anakin gets a free pass where Rey does not (I only brought up the double standard in conjunction with Luke). It was simply to say that Anakin provides a canon precedent for the kinds of abilities Rey demonstrates.

Edit: In short, what I am saying is "This is how the Force has been show to work in Star Wars (admittedly somewhat inconsistently). So... maybe you find it ridiculous, but its not out of place in the context of this universe, any more than Neo downloading Kung Fu into his brain in a few seconds or minutes is out of place in the Matrix-verse. Its just how the silly rules of this fictional reality operate.

[Patroklos]

You know, about two posts back, when I referred to Luke's destruction of the Death Star as proof that he also exhibited abilities that might be seen as implausible? Yet never gets called a Mary Sue for?

Except it doesn't, as has been pointe out dozens of times. Key differences:

1.) We get multiple lines of dialogue with some specific details about Luke being a pilot, the context about why he would be interested in piloting (hot rodding with friends (remember this was in the 70s...) and wanting to join the academy), what he piloted, and why that is specifically relevant to a feat he pulls off later (flies in tight spaces, shoots small things).

Rey gets one vague line, and while it establishes she has flown literally junk before, the way its given also has the effect of providing a hard cap to what the audience's expectations of her are vice being open ended like Luke's. And nothing about that line is specifically relevant to what she does later (example of how to do this: Random Unammed Scrapper Walking By - "Rey, can you helm me with my next trip to the Lucrehulk in secter 34? There are some real tight spots I need to get the hawler though, and I remember you threading that ISD engine cone like a boss last year!" Rey - "You should have seen me shoot that SSD gunport, but I got better things to do that help your scrawny ass". That took me two seconds).

If you tell me you've driven some jalopies around the junk yard for food rations I will not accept you wining the Indy 500 two scene and a day of movie time later. If you tell me you are a hotrod with your friends in your free time and dirt race Devi's Gouge while shooting raccoons out the drivers window I'll accept accomplishing something more difficult but essentially the same thing later in the same film.

Hell even Anakin, my favorite character to hate, got the history of being in pod races before we see him win one. It wasn't just "I drove a pod racer once, down the street, to get slave mom milk" and then straight to "I won the planetary Grand Prix!!!" The fact that he had pod raced before and lived to tell about us establishes some level of skill relevant to the movie race scene all by itself. As the audience we realize this while watching said race scene, which is great (Again, I don't praise the prequels lightly).

2.) Luke was not alone. He was flying with a group of veterans, and its established at several points that without them he would have died. He would have died again if one of the most capable pilots in the galaxy (Han, established again through great in movie characterization...) intervened on his behalf near the end of the sequence. And this was just to get him to the damn port, where he is helped AGAIN...

3.) Luke, OVERTLY, had the ACTIVE help of the force. Luke didn't hit the exhaust vent because he had latent force abilities by being a Skywalker. The audience didn't have to assume he wasn't just a Mary Sue with unexplainable skill despite what they saw. They are outright told he DOES NOT HAVE that skill, or at lease he can't access that skill by himself. Obi Wan, a supernatural force at this point even by Jedi standards, has to actually tell Luke to use the force. And this is even though Luke already knows about the force and that he has some access to it, unlike Rey.

4.) Luke's feat just isn't that impressive. The fact is he was shooting at a stationary target, a target several normal humans thought difficult to hit but clearly not impossible. If you think the issue was targeting and the others just missed then all Luke did was shoot at the right time, which literally anyone could do thorough normal skill or luck. I personally feel the forces contribution was literally pushing the torpedoes down the shaft via telekinesis, but unfortunately the move focuses on the targeting and timing.

Its also less impressive because there is no indication that Luke is the last person available to make the shot due to skill or force powers. He was just lucky. There is no supernatural reason why he wasn't assigned as a wingman to one of those earlier trench runs, to die helplessly just like those who were assigned as wingmen. Tweak one TIE fighter selecting a different target space side and it might have been Luke in the trench for the first run, and probably not as the lead torpedo shooter either. The randomness of combat circumstances and all that.

The point is we have no reason to believe that if it had been Red Leader making the same run because he happened to be the last one left, and Han had saved HIM from Vader (because Han had no freaking clue what the situation was when he decided to return), and he got to make an unopposed run on the exhaust port like Luke, that he wouldn't have blown up the Death Star with his MK1 forceless targeting computer.

Being heroic is often not the deciding factor on who gets a medal. Its being heric and lucky enough to survive. Or not being heroic at all, "I'd rather be lucky than good" and all that.

The point is, timing a shot on a stationary target while flying in a straight line unharassed (Luke was unmolested for his shot, unlike the previous shooters...) is not as impressive as flying your freighter through multiple derelict hulls in wildly altering and restricted terrain while being harassed by incoming weapons fire in a dogfight. Note Luke never used the force when he was in his own more stressful dogfighting situations, there was no latent Skywalker effect. He called his squadron mates for help, or coordinated his movements with them, because there was no force to save his ass otherwise.

I have said that "Mary Sue" is a sexist term (though I doubt Khaat meant it that way), and that people give Luke less flack because he's a man.

You realize that saying this in a conversation with people who are giving Luke less flack is calling them misogynists. You are making a statement at random regarding what nebulous unidentified "people" think. You are have a conversation with people making this exact claim with copious justifications.

Your only justification for saying what you did in that context is to excuse away the actual justifications given. Why did you mention it unless you think the people saying that here are only doing so because "he's a man"?

[Khaat]

You know, about two posts back, when I referred to Luke's destruction of the Death Star as proof that he also exhibited abilities that might be seen as implausible? Yet never gets called a Mary Sue for?

Now, granted, the presentation was better in Episode IV than in Episode VII, absolutely. But the fact remains that Luke gets a pass on extraordinary abilities, where Rey does not.

Yeah, the farmboy who has a history of piloting? You're all alone in clinging to "the shot was possibly impossible!" And it was one action in the film where he was beat by (0 - his buddies at Anchorhead) 1) his aunt and uncle, 2) sand people, 3) drunk thugs in a bar, 4) a garbage snake, 5) a TIE fighter, 6) Darth Vader. But, hey! That one thing he did without falling on his ass totally makes up for a movie entirely composed of them around Rey and kid Anakin!

And I don't care if you think that its poor characterization. I wouldn't even necessarily disagree, except that you have conducted yourself as such an incoherent and offensive manner in this discussion that I now feel an urge to dispute anything you say on principle.

*emphasis mine*
So this is half-concession (the characterization may in fact be poor characterization), but you're going to double down because... I think "explain all of it later" is crap? That's the same point, buttercup. Has serial television really rotted the mind of the average movie-goer where they'll let crap writing slide because "there are two more movies, plenty of time to fix it!"?

You maybe don't see it, but you do this thing where you vacillate between actual arguments and petty defensiveness, and you apparently put more effort into the latter. Just an FYI, outside observer.

But the fact remains that their is a pretty clear canon precedent for a Force user, particularly one of the Skywalker lineage, demonstrating the level of ability that you evidently find so implausible in Rey.

Shame you still don't understand that:
MY POINT IS THAT THE CHARACTERIZATION OF REY IS POOR AND INCOMPLETE AND THE DEFENSE OF IT IS UNWARRANTED SIMPLY BECAUSE THE CHARACTER IS FEMALE. "FIX IT LATER" IS AN EXCUSE FOR POOR WRITING.

Here, I'll try another angle: RPG-wise, the Force has never granted skills, only bonuses (or even penalties) to skills and only at dramatically appropriate times. Only after (any) training can the Force be drawn on intentionally by a limited number of people (space wizards, their apprentices). If you haven't taken a level in Space Wizard, you don't get to cast spells.

My point is not that TFA is some flawless gem, as you seem to think (or pretend to think). Merely that the criticisms of it are exaggerated, specifically that Rey's powers can be explained in the context of the Star Wars franchise, and that most of the issues with it are explicable/fixable.

*my emphasis again*
... by bringing in a writer skilled enough to actually drop in enough backstory to explain the list of skills a protagonist has (preferably in the same damned movie), upon which any supernatural exploits can be supported, as the character grows into it.

Your actual position reduces to "the Force wants it that way". Except the history of the franchise includes writing where the protagonist grows to become a hero of extraordinary ability instead of starting there ["Good" characterization]. It also includes some pretty crap characterization that doesn't involve a female character, and this has been called out for you, too.

I wasn't even addressing you until you got irrationally offended by a conversation I had with someone else in which I cited the canon precedent of Anakin Skywalker, and noted that Rey might also be a Skywalker.

You may find coherent writing irrational. You may even find good screenwriting anathema. I don't fucking care what your position is. "We'll fix ALL of it later" is irresponsible screenwriting. For a writer to hold the position that it's excusable...? WTF, man?

I used Luke as a counterpoint example of a hero with limits, faults, and growth.

And I will (again) respond by pointing out that Luke, like Rey, exhibits abilities that might be seen as implausible.

Not "implausible" to the extent you maintain, nor as frequent or character-defining.

And Anakin's abilities are canon, like it or not.

... I just did (liked it not), you raging egomaniac.

What the hell are you even referring to here? I'd refute the accusation of being an egomaniac, except that I can't for the life of me figure out what prompted it in the first place, or to what you are referring.

Aww, lost your special snowflake place, kitten? You are making excuses for poor writing, I called you on it. You said there was canon poor writing and said I could not like it, I "not liked it". Ok, go!

But it is canon that Force users can do the shit that Rey does. You don't have to like that it is. But it is regardless of weather you like it or not.

... after backstory dropped in character development. Qui-gon didn't stick Anakin in a pod racer for the first time ever to race: Anakin's character development included a history of piloting, and a "premonition sense" (not "Force take the wheel!") that made him appear to react so quickly. He still had piloting skills and the fastest pod racer at the race that didn't come through the Force/plot in a ham-fisted way.

[Civil War Man]

Here, I'll try another angle: RPG-wise, the Force has never granted skills, only bonuses (or even penalties) to skills and only at dramatically appropriate times. Only after (any) training can the Force be drawn on intentionally by a limited number of people (space wizards, their apprentices). If you haven't taken a level in Space Wizard, you don't get to cast spells.

Wouldn't this actually support the idea that Rey's piloting feat was fine? She didn't cast any spells to outfly the TIE pilots. The Force just decided it was a dramatically appropriate time for her to get a bonus to her Pilot (Light Freighter) skill.

The big problem with the establishment of Rey's piloting skills is that they committed one of the cardinal sins of major franchise storytelling: they put critical characterization in supplemental material. One of the books establishes that she practiced starship piloting using a flight combat sim she salvaged from one of the wrecks on Jakku (which also explains why she did fine flying the Falcon, but crashed into a bunch of stuff while trying to take off). If they actually showed her fooling around with the flight program when she was chilling in the home she carved out of the destroyed AT-AT, there would have been no problem.

[Khaat]

Here, I'll try another angle: RPG-wise, the Force has never granted skills, only bonuses (or even penalties) to skills and only at dramatically appropriate times. Only after (any) training can the Force be drawn on intentionally by a limited number of people (space wizards, their apprentices). If you haven't taken a level in Space Wizard, you don't get to cast spells.

Wouldn't this actually support the idea that Rey's piloting feat was fine? She didn't cast any spells to outfly the TIE pilots. The Force just decided it was a dramatically appropriate time for her to get a bonus to her Pilot (Light Freighter) skill.

Yes, that would have been fine, had they included her piloting-skill background in the movie itself.

The big problem with the establishment of Rey's piloting skills is that they committed one of the cardinal sins of major franchise storytelling: they put critical characterization in supplemental material. One of the books establishes that she practiced starship piloting using a flight combat sim she salvaged from one of the wrecks on Jakku (which also explains why she did fine flying the Falcon, but crashed into a bunch of stuff while trying to take off). If they actually showed her fooling around with the flight program when she was chilling in the home she carved out of the destroyed AT-AT, there would have been no problem.

This. A thousand times this. The character was poorly written in the movie, and instead had "mystery skills" right out of the box. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with her gender. Where she came from, what she did before being ditched on Jakku can be a mystery (provided it wasn't Sifo Dyas again - which was never answered in-film), but everything she's done on Jakku shouldn't be.

[Civil War Man]

Here, I'll try another angle: RPG-wise, the Force has never granted skills, only bonuses (or even penalties) to skills and only at dramatically appropriate times. Only after (any) training can the Force be drawn on intentionally by a limited number of people (space wizards, their apprentices). If you haven't taken a level in Space Wizard, you don't get to cast spells.

Wouldn't this actually support the idea that Rey's piloting feat was fine? She didn't cast any spells to outfly the TIE pilots. The Force just decided it was a dramatically appropriate time for her to get a bonus to her Pilot (Light Freighter) skill.

Yes, that would have been fine, had they included her piloting-skill background in the movie itself.

Though, going by the RPG angle you brought up, a lot of systems still allow you to attempt skill checks without training, at least for skills that don't require formal education, though you will often be operating at a penalty if you do this. If we go all Darths and Droids on TFA, Rey rolled poorly on her initial Pilot (Light Freighter) check, since she crashed the Falcon into several different structures while trying to take off, and the Force gave her a progressively higher bonus on subsequent rolls as she familiarized herself with the controls.

Also, considering that later on she showed enough familiarity with the Falcon to list off previous owners and the modifications they installed, it does establish that she at least has passing familiarity on the inner workings of the ship, so the controls wouldn't be completely alien to her. If they established that earlier, it also would have been less of a problem.

My general stance is that the writers should have done better to establish her existing skills, but it's not necessarily as bad as you contend.

[Khaat]

My general stance is that the writers should have done better to establish her existing skills, but it's not necessarily as bad as you contend.

If it had been one thing (piloting the Falcon), maybe, but it was most everything this character did. As far as the RPG angle goes, you don't get better (spend xp on improvements) in the same scene, you don't get reduced penalties without significant in-game time, and the bonus happens once per scene at most. Handing the player a handful of "20" chits to spend on character rolls isn't fun to play or fun to watch. If the Force is being written as that puppeteering, may as well have just picked a sandstorm or random wave to bring balance to the Force, it has as much agency.

Is Rey more important in achieving her pre-destined result than Anakin was his? Than Luke was? Are the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker going to get a "PT/OT LOL!" at the end of the Sequel Trilogy? Is what Rey has to do so important that she literally cannot fail?

[Civil War Man]

My general stance is that the writers should have done better to establish her existing skills, but it's not necessarily as bad as you contend.

If it had been one thing (piloting the Falcon), maybe, but it was most everything this character did. As far as the RPG angle goes, you don't get better (spend xp on improvements) in the same scene, you don't get reduced penalties without significant in-game time, and the bonus happens once per scene at most. Handing the player a handful of "20" chits to spend on character rolls isn't fun to play or fun to watch. If the Force is being written as that puppeteering, may as well have just picked a sandstorm or random wave to bring balance to the Force, it has as much agency.

Is Rey more important in achieving her pre-destined result than Anakin was his? Than Luke was? Are the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker going to get a "PT/OT LOL!" at the end of the Sequel Trilogy? Is what Rey has to do so important that she literally cannot fail?

So, let's take a look at what she actually does in the movie, and the implications of it.

1. We're introduced to her as a scavenger on Jakku, with several clues that she's been a scavenger for a long time. We can surmise that she, therefore, has skills common to a scavenger on a desert planet. Probably sneaky, an assortment of technical skills, some fighting ability, and the necessary skills for surviving in the desert, for example.
2. Pre-Falcon stuff happens. She's established to know a few languages, including droid speak (likely from interacting with other scavengers and repairing droids). She beats up a couple goons with a staff. Nothing particularly noteworthy.
3. The thing with the Falcon. The movie did a poor job establishing piloting skills specifically, but it can be argued that based on her being a scavenger (a character class that tends to take a lot of technical skills), it's not entirely out of the question that she would have at least some basic understanding on how ships work in general. After the dogfight, there's a throwaway line on how she has flown some ships, but never as well as she did then, since she wasn't expecting the Force-granted skill bonus for Plot Significance.
4. The freighter where Han and Chewie join the party. She does some sneaky stuff and a couple technical things. Honestly, she is not the problem with this scene.
5. Maz's planet. Mostly talking. She has the vision to advance the plot, rejects the Call, runs away, and gets effortlessly captured by Kylo Ren (which contradicts your whole "she never fails at anything" contention).
6. She gets interrogated by Kylo Ren, and turns the tables against him. I see this as less problematic than you might think. If she just hacked his brain directly, then yeah, you'd definitely have a point. But Kylo Ren is actively probing her mind with the Force, and she is actively resisting. Previous movies have established that a lot of wielding the Force is intuitive, so I can buy that turning the tables was unintentional on her part. She was trying to resist, he's in her mind, she accidentally catches on the part of him in her mind and rides the stream back into his mind. And since Kylo Ren was rushed, impatient, sloppy, and not expecting someone with any significant affinity to the Force, he did not put up any defenses against her backhacking him.
7. Mind tricking the Stormtrooper. I view this as one of the biggest stretches, since all previous Mind Tricks in the movies have been done by Jedi with training in how to use the Force. One could argue that she's extrapolating based on what happened during the interrogation, but I view there as less established characterization that she'd be able to do that than there was for her piloting the Falcon on Jakku.
8. A bunch of sneaking around as she tries to escape. Nothing spectacular there.
9. Force pulling the lightsaber. Also a bit of a stretch. Luke was able to use telekinesis with no more training than what Obi-Wan gave him, so it doesn't take a lot of training. But Luke also had a few years of experimentation, and he wasn't contesting the telekinesis of a Force user with more training.
10. The lightsaber fight. We already established she had some skills with melee combat, so that's not a problem. Kylo Ren has more training, but he was also wounded multiple times, and he was still wiping the floor with her until she got the same type of Force-granted skill bonus to her Melee Weapons skill that she got when she was piloting the Falcon.

Beyond picking up on certain Force things faster than normal and the movie not doing a good job establishing how much skill she had as a pilot, she really didn't do all that much that could not be explained by "she grew up alone working as a scavenger."

[ray245]

Being a scavenger doesn't automatically equates to knowing those skills, at least based on people's common assumptions. Luke has some direct implication that he's trained as a pilot. We do hear about how Luke claimed to be a decent pilot before we finally saw him in an X-Wing. There's some build-up to his skills being shown throughout ANH.

Anakin? Well, we actually hear about him saying it's not the first time he's been a pod-racer. His mother and slave-owner also provided sufficient evidence that Anakin flew a pod-racer before.

Rey needs some form of active building-up of her abilities before she is shown to be awesome at that particular skill. Give her scenes of people she can talk to about her piloting skills (say a smuggler wanting her to be on the crew of a ship for her flying abilities). What we got is an immediate jump to her piloting something new for her, and being a far better pilot than Luke and Anakin ever was on their first spacebattle/dogfight.

Anakin crashed into the control ship despite having an autopilot help. Luke could have been shot down multiple times without his fellow pilots to save him.

Rey? Outflew and destroyed all the TIE chasing her basically on her own ( Finn is just manning the guns instead of flying another ship).

[Khaat]

I have been clear that this is the whole issue: Rey has been poorly expressed as a character. Her "known skills" have to be hand-waved because JJA does "show and not tell" to such extremes as to be detrimental to her quality. We didn't hear about her skills in dialog, we didn't see or hear of routine use of skills she would exhibit later at great proficiency. This has the effect of removing her agency: she is a puppet to the will of the Force, if that's what ensures she succeeds at everything. Shine-up the plot's railroad tracks, she's got the cheat codes enabled.

[Patroklos]

5. Maz's planet. Mostly talking. She has the vision to advance the plot, rejects the Call, runs away, and gets effortlessly captured by Kylo Ren (which contradicts your whole "she never fails at anything" contention).

Except that amazing, off hand, limp wristed, unsupported storm trooper head shot with a blaster at 30 yards when just seconds earlier in the same scene she is characterized as having never held a blaster before.

One, two of these things and I would still be complaining because they are still flaws. When every other scene repeats the same flaw it makes a bad movie. And MaryRey is hardly the only flaw in this movie.

[Adam Reynolds]

The problem with Rey's competence is that no one really saves her all that much, which really drains the tension from the movie. In A New Hope, Luke gets rescued by Obi-Wan repeatedly on Tatooine, his rescue plan is saved by Leia, and he only blows up the Death Star because Han saves him. All of that prevents him from being too powerful.

Name one character who outright saves Rey in the same sense. Finn has the opposite problem in that all of the points in which he should be able to shine are undercut by Rey saving herself without his help. I get wanting to make her a strong character, but strength doesn't mean doing everything yourself.

Except that amazing, off hand, limp wristed, unsupported storm trooper head shot with a blaster at 30 yards when just seconds earlier in the same scene she is characterized as having never held a blaster before.

It just occurred to me that this would have been a nice opportunity for Finn to teach Rey something, as he is actually quite skilled with a blaster. When she took the weapon she could have had no idea how to use it, only for Finn to give her a few quick pointers. That training remote is actually a blaster target as well according to the lore, which could have been an interesting twist on the original scene.

[Patroklos]

Shit, even with all the complaining about "male action heros never get this criticism" even John McClane had to be saved as he walked out of Nakatomi tower. When THE archtype 80s male action hero has more vulnerability that your character, you know you done fucked up.

It just occurred to me that this would have been a nice opportunity for Finn to teach Rey something, as he is actually quite skilled with a blaster. When she took the weapon she could have had no idea how to use it, only for Finn to give her a few quick pointers. That training remote is actually a blaster target as well according to the lore, which could have been an interesting twist on the original scene.

I know I will get flamed here for saying so, but this was on purpose. It was an intentional move to make sure Rey never needed the help of a man, and it was intentional that she was given a male sidekick to outperform and humiliate (he doesn't just need help, he is inept) even when you would expect the opposite. Little girls need to understand they don't need anyone's help.

I totally expect an upstaging "the apprentice eclipses the teacher" moment next film regarding Luke, where Rey demonstrates she is better than him in both innate and learned force skill as well as establishes herself as morally superior.

Yes, there are a hundred opportunities of where characters could have helped/saved Rey constructively, as opposed to condescendingly, and they are so obvious it can't possibly be the case missing them all unintentionally.

[The Romulan Republic]

Except it doesn't, as has been pointe out dozens of times. Key differences:

Luke, with one or two introductory sessions of Force-training, makes a shot veteran star fighter pilots couldn't make, flying a craft he'd never flow before.

That's not implausible? Is it significantly less so than what Rey did?

Not really, when you compare the basic facts. I'll allow that Luke's story is less awkwardly presented (I never claimed that TFA had was a flawless masterpiece of a script), but a few moments' unbiased consideration should make it clear that Rey's feats as a pilot aren't really much more unlikely in the context of the Star Wars franchise. Just not as well-presented.

In other words, the audience has to fill in a few more gaps for themselves, perhaps more than they should ideally have to (but at the same time, there's a reason for the maxim "show don't tell), but its not really hard to do so in a plausible way, if you're familiar with Star Wars.

1.) We get multiple lines of dialogue with some specific details about Luke being a pilot, the context about why he would be interested in piloting (hot rodding with friends (remember this was in the 70s...) and wanting to join the academy), what he piloted, and why that is specifically relevant to a feat he pulls off later (flies in tight spaces, shoots small things).

And we see Rey working with space craft parts, piloting a speeder, etc. And, as you note below, a line that she has flow shit before. Its not as much, maybe- but then, I don't need the film to hold my hand and drop explanations for every single thing Rey knows how to do. I don't need some exposition explaining how she learned to walk, or talk, or salvage space craft parts for that matter. We've seen time and again that being able to pilot a space craft in Star Wars isn't exactly an elite, high-end skill like it is in the real world, even if you aren't Force sensitive. Its something within the means of ordinary citizens- even not particularly wealthy ones or limited to certain professions.

And I'll point to a canon precedent- Anakin Skywalker. Who flew a starfighter and won the battle of Naboo at age nine, despite having previously been a slave on a backwater planet (actually lower in status than Rey appears to have been, and presumably with less life experience due to his age), who's prior flying experience was apparently limited to pod racing.

Now, its fair to say that that got criticism too, as previously noted. And yet, it does remain a clear canon precedent for this sort of thing, especially if Rey turns out to be a Skywalker, and especially if she turns out to be some sort of Anakin Mk. II, as some have theorized.

Is it silly? Yeah, you could say that. But its no more silly, again, than, say, Neo downloading Kung Fu into his brain, or (for a flying-related example) Trinity instantly downloading how to pilot a helicopter like an ace in The Matrix. Its just how this fictional universe appears to work.

Could it have been more effectively presented in the film? Yeah, sure. But there's nothing inherently ridiculous about it by the established standards of the Star Wars universe.

Rey gets one vague line, and while it establishes she has flown literally junk before, the way its given also has the effect of providing a hard cap to what the audience's expectations of her are vice being open ended like Luke's. And nothing about that line is specifically relevant to what she does later (example of how to do this: Random Unammed Scrapper Walking By - "Rey, can you helm me with my next trip to the Lucrehulk in secter 34? There are some real tight spots I need to get the hawler though, and I remember you threading that ISD engine cone like a boss last year!" Rey - "You should have seen me shoot that SSD gunport, but I got better things to do that help your scrawny ass". That took me two seconds).

Yeah, but its also unnecessary.

If you tell me you've driven some jalopies around the junk yard for food rations I will not accept you wining the Indy 500 two scene and a day of movie time later. If you tell me you are a hotrod with your friends in your free time and dirt race Devi's Gouge while shooting raccoons out the drivers window I'll accept accomplishing something more difficult but essentially the same thing later in the same film.

Yeah, because piloting a civilian craft for sport totally prepares you for being a fighter pilot.

This is part of why I bring the gender thing up: because Luke is being held to a different standard in this discussion than Rey.

Now, granted, their might be more than one reason for that- Episode IV is a better-written and directed film. Also, Luke has long been established as an iconic character, which means he gets the benefit of nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses.

But the fact remains that, for whatever reasons, Luke is being held to a different standard, to the point that you and Khaat are both severely twisting canon to justify it- as in you actually asserting that flying a star fighter in combat conditions and making a shot that veteran pilots found difficult is "essentially the same thing" as screwing around in a civilian craft on Tatooine. Or both you and Khaat essentially arguing that no, all the indications that it was a difficult-bordering-on-impossible shot in the film, and the film's clear intent to that effect, don't really count. Anything to make Luke's shot seem more "plausible" compared to "Mary Sue" Rey.

Hell even Anakin, my favorite character to hate, got the history of being in pod races before we see him win one. It wasn't just "I drove a pod racer once, down the street, to get slave mom milk" and then straight to "I won the planetary Grand Prix!!!" The fact that he had pod raced before and lived to tell about us establishes some level of skill relevant to the movie race scene all by itself. As the audience we realize this while watching said race scene, which is great (Again, I don't praise the prequels lightly).

See: this is what I'm talking about.

Rey is show routinely piloting a land speeder, working on and around space craft components, and says she has piloted stuff before. This is reduced to being the equivalent of "I just drove down the street once."

Anakin flies pod-racers (distinctly NOT space-capable), and IIRC its mentioned in the film that he never finished a race prior to the movie. This is treated as a more credible basis for him being a successful starfighter pilot, despite the fact that he's a little kid.

Double-standard. Maybe its not about gender. But for whatever reason, you clearly are not holding Rey to the same standard as her predecessors.

2.) Luke was not alone. He was flying with a group of veterans, and its established at several points that without them he would have died. He would have died again if one of the most capable pilots in the galaxy (Han, established again through great in movie characterization...) intervened on his behalf near the end of the sequence. And this was just to get him to the damn port, where he is helped AGAIN...

Sure. But he was still able to fly a completely unfamiliar type of craft, in combat conditions, and end up as one of the ten percent or so of pilots present who survived, in addition to making that final shot. Hell, he outlasted Wedge fucking Antilese.

The lengths to which you and Khaat are going to bend over backwards to downplay what Luke did in order to make Rey seem more ridiculous are getting quite silly.

3.) Luke, OVERTLY, had the ACTIVE help of the force. Luke didn't hit the exhaust vent because he had latent force abilities by being a Skywalker. The audience didn't have to assume he wasn't just a Mary Sue with unexplainable skill despite what they saw. They are outright told he DOES NOT HAVE that skill, or at lease he can't access that skill by himself. Obi Wan, a supernatural force at this point even by Jedi standards, has to actually tell Luke to use the force. And this is even though Luke already knows about the force and that he has some access to it, unlike Rey.

There is, to my knowledge, no evidence that Obi-wan was actively assisting Luke's use of the Force. He literally just gave him a five second psychic pep talk to remind him to use the Force rather than do things the "conventional" way.

And while you are correct that Luke was not relying on purely latent ability, in contrast to Rey, I will point again to Anakin as a precedent for latent ability aiding piloting.

Its kind of funny that you are actively diminishing Luke's achievements in order to make him seem better as a character compared to Rey. And I'm saying this as an unapologetic Luke fan boy.

4.) Luke's feat just isn't that impressive.

You are really going to some... impressive extents to bash Rey.

I mean, I sure thought that the film sure treated it as impressive. I kind of thought that was the point of the big build-up, with the multiple failed runs, including a failed shot by the presumably veteran commander of the squadron, and the Rebel pilot saying it was an impossible shot even for a computer, and Luke having to use the Force to do it, before he saves the entire Rebellion in the nick of time by making that big climactic shot.

But I guess it was nothing extraordinary after all. Silly me.

The fact is he was shooting at a stationary target, a target several normal humans thought difficult to hit but clearly not impossible. If you think the issue was targeting and the others just missed then all Luke did was shoot at the right time, which literally anyone could do thorough normal skill or luck. I personally feel the forces contribution was literally pushing the torpedoes down the shaft via telekinesis, but unfortunately the move focuses on the targeting and timing.

There's no indication that he telekinetically pushed the torpedoes- but if he did, that would likely be a far more impressive feat than simply using the Force to assist his piloting/targeting, and actually make Luke's feat more ridiculously impressive, not less. Which would strengthen my argument.

And sure, he was shooting at a stationary target... while moving very fast, trying not to crash into the walls of the trench, aiming at a target that was only slightly wider than the torpedoes he was trying to fire down it, and which prior attack runs had failed to hit.

Its also less impressive because there is no indication that Luke is the last person available to make the shot due to skill or force powers. He was just lucky. There is no supernatural reason why he wasn't assigned as a wingman to one of those earlier trench runs, to die helplessly just like those who were assigned as wingmen. Tweak one TIE fighter selecting a different target space side and it might have been Luke in the trench for the first run, and probably not as the lead torpedo shooter either. The randomness of combat circumstances and all that.

Or the Will of the Force.

The point is we have no reason to believe that if it had been Red Leader making the same run because he happened to be the last one left, and Han had saved HIM from Vader (because Han had no freaking clue what the situation was when he decided to return), and he got to make an unopposed run on the exhaust port like Luke, that he wouldn't have blown up the Death Star with his MK1 forceless targeting computer.

Being heroic is often not the deciding factor on who gets a medal. Its being heric and lucky enough to survive. Or not being heroic at all, "I'd rather be lucky than good" and all that.

No way to say weather Red Leader would have made it under the same circumstances as Luke. All we know is that Red Leader didn't make it, and Luke did, by using a technique that was unavailable to any of the other pilots there.

But I'm not going to spend any more time trying to convince you that Luke hitting the Death Star port was a big deal, because this is getting too silly.

The point is, timing a shot on a stationary target while flying in a straight line unharassed (Luke was unmolested for his shot, unlike the previous shooters...) is not as impressive as flying your freighter through multiple derelict hulls in wildly altering and restricted terrain while being harassed by incoming weapons fire in a dogfight. Note Luke never used the force when he was in his own more stressful dogfighting situations, there was no latent Skywalker effect. He called his squadron mates for help, or coordinated his movements with them, because there was no force to save his ass otherwise.

I strongly suspect, in hindsight, that he was using the Force latently, just like Anakin and Rey. Because otherwise, him surviving that fight, with or without help, when 90% of the pilots present bought it and he had never flown an X-wing or flown in space combat before, would be every bit as implausible as anything Rey did. I expect, barring some EU statement on it, there's no way to prove it either way, however.

I'll also point out that Rey might have been flying in more difficult terrain, but it was also terrain she personally was likely very familiar with, and it was likely at considerably lower velocities.

You realize that saying this in a conversation with people who are giving Luke less flack is calling them misogynists. You are making a statement at random regarding what nebulous unidentified "people" think. You are have a conversation with people making this exact claim with copious justifications.

Again, I acknowledge that their may be other reasons why people hold Luke to a different standard, but in some cases it is about gender, I think. And unfortunately, once a meme takes root, people start buying into it unthinkingly, even if they don't have the same motives.

I am not calling anyone here a misogynist. The closest I came was probably my "its okay because he has a dick" comment to Khaat earlier, and that was partly just me repaying needless snideness in kind.

Your only justification for saying what you did in that context is to excuse away the actual justifications given. Why did you mention it unless you think the people saying that here are only doing so because "he's a man"?

You make it sound like I am using accusations of sexism to dodge having to refute others' arguments. This is not the case. I have provided multiple counterarguments (which have been met by some of the most ridiculous rebuttals I've ever seen) that had nothing to do with gender.

And I mentioned it because I think that in some cases, it applies. As to weather it applies to any specific person posting in this thread, I can't say.

In summary:

Nothing Rey does is necessarily extraordinarily implausible or rediculous by the established standards of the Star Wars franchise. However, the inferior presentation (and the fact that A New Hope is a beloved classic) may make it harder for some of the audience to suspend disbelieve for Rey and TFA.

Also, for whatever reason (and in some cases, though not all, I do think its partly about gender), I also feel Luke and Anakin are being held to a laxer standard of criticism and evidence than Rey.

[Patroklos]

First of all, thank you for responding even if most if it is just fluff to avoid addressing 90% of what was said.

Luke, with one or two introductory sessions of Force-training, makes a shot veteran star fighter pilots couldn't make, flying a craft he'd never flow before.

Correction: Didn't make. Veteran star fighter pilots didn't make it. And didn't is not the same as couldn't.

That's not implausible? Is it significantly less so than what Rey did?

No, its not implausible. Squadrons of craft have been engaging difficult targets for most of human history in some form or other and it usually comes done to a numbers game where the number of attempts made are as important as the skill of the attempts made. We have a sample size of two here, so its really impossible for you to extrapolate that its an implausible shot to make or that it required the force to make it.

Did anyone say it was impossible to make? I mean, someone did actually make it...

Not really, when you compare the basic facts. I'll allow that Luke's story is less awkwardly presented (I never claimed that TFA had was a flawless masterpiece of a script), but a few moments' unbiased consideration should make it clear that Rey's feats as a pilot aren't really much more unlikely in the context of the Star Wars franchise. Just not as well-presented.

Reys performance is objectively better than anything ever seen on screen in the SW universe before. This is not debatable. I want you to watch the ROTJ Death Star run again, which was the previous benchmark for the best piloting ever seen on screen, and tell me with a straight face Rey's scene is not more difficult. And then I will call you a liar.

In other words, the audience has to fill in a few more gaps for themselves, perhaps more than they should ideally have to (but at the same time, there's a reason for the maxim "show don't tell), but its not really hard to do so in a plausible way, if you're familiar with Star Wars.

The problem is the movie told us she was not a pilot of that level, because the whole gist of the movie up to this point was that she was a street urchin living hand to mouth sleeping in a dumpster. Telling us she scavenged a few star ship parts and moved a few broke ass junkyard lemons around the lot here in there is not establishing her as a good pilot, its establishing a ceiling to her skill. The circumstances box her in, instead of hinting at something open ended.

I think you understand this just fine, you just don't like it.

And we see Rey working with space craft parts, piloting a speeder, etc. And, as you note below, a line that she has flow shit before. Its not as much, maybe- but then, I don't need the film to hold my hand and drop explanations for every single thing Rey knows how to do. I don't need some exposition explaining how she learned to walk, or talk, or salvage space craft parts for that matter. We've seen time and again that being able to pilot a space craft in Star Wars isn't exactly an elite, high-end skill like it is in the real world, even if you aren't Force sensitive. Its something within the means of ordinary citizens- even not particularly wealthy ones or limited to certain professions.

1.) Working on space craft parts means nothing. Watto worked on space craft parts. Jawas work on space craft parts. You have talked yourself into thinking this is some important bell-weather. Even if it was you are following it the wrong way. Once you are a pilot it probably becomes useful to become familiar with some aircraft parts. The second follows the first. A good aircraft mechanic doesn't have to be a pilot to be good at their job. I said this before, but would you be comfortable with me pulling the myraid Boeing qualified engine mechanics out of their hangers and plopping them into your next airfare's pilot seat?

2.) Piloting (is that what we call that, I am pretty sure way DRIVING a speeder) a speeder is to piloting a space craft as driving a Honda is to flying an F15. And of note the speeders we see on this world (and analogous Tatooine) are not the high flying things or Coruscant. You are welcome to object, but the common folk in Sudan are not driving the Ferraris of LA if you catch my drift. The point is driving speeders is irrelevant. Luke drove a speeder, nobody claims this was some foreshadowing of his piloting skills.

3.) I don't need explanations for everything Rey does, but since I am not watching a two hour Rey variety talent show of unexplained marvels (as see on Ripley's Believe It Or Not!) but instead a movie I expect something to make sense. Part of a movie is telling a story. Part of telling a story is explaining why the things we are seeing are the way they are.

And I'll point to a canon precedent- Anakin Skywalker. Who flew a starfighter and won the battle of Naboo at age nine, despite having previously been a slave on a backwater planet (actually lower in status than Rey appears to have been, and presumably with less life experience due to his age), who's prior flying experience was apparently limited to pod racing.

You keep bringing up canon as if that refutes anything anyone has said. Nobody has denied it is canon. The point, the infuriating and saddening point, is that it IS canon. This unimaginative, poorly written, Mary Sue BS is with us forever. Just like Anakin. You don't seem to be understanding that pointing out hat Rey is just like a universally accepted Mary Sue just proves how much she is one too.

But since you brought it up AGAIN, Anakin is so much better than Rey. For one, most of the piloting we see Anakin do was autopilot. And "try spinning" and subsequently crashing ain't exactly comparable to what we see Rey do. If you are reading some sort of competent ability into what you we see Anakin do in that scene, latent or otherwise, you missed the point. That scene was about slapstick luck, so divorced in tone and stucture from what we see Rey OR Luke do in their scenes its sort of laughable you feel the need to compare them.

This is one of the primary complaints about TPM, that we are subjected these cartoon kiddie romps in what otherwise a relatively standard (if boring) SW tone drama, whether it be cartoon whatever tripping over themselves in what is supposedly a life or death ground battle or an unnamed Sesame Street extra kid spinning WHEEEEEEE!!!! through a droid command ship supposedly violently oppressing an entire planet of people.

If you are holding Rey up to the light (the garish cartoon light) of TPM for points you have already lost.

Is it silly? Yeah, you could say that. But its no more silly, again, than, say, Neo downloading Kung Fu into his brain, or (for a flying-related example) Trinity instantly downloading how to pilot a helicopter like an ace in The Matrix. Its just how this fictional universe appears to work.

Are you completely oblivious to the amount of time and dialogue devoted to setting up all of that to happen. Literally the entire first movie is about explaining that to you in excruciating detail. This demonstrates the exact opposite of what you are intending it to. Are you thinking about these examples at all before you bring them up?

If you tell me you've driven some jalopies around the junk yard for food rations I will not accept you wining the Indy 500 two scene and a day of movie time later. If you tell me you are a hotrod with your friends in your free time and dirt race Devi's Gouge while shooting raccoons out the drivers window I'll accept accomplishing something more difficult but essentially the same thing later in the same film.

Yeah, because piloting a civilian craft for sport totally prepares you for being a fighter pilot.

You do understand that is EXACTLY how you train actual fighter pilots, right?.

The point isn't that they both use a lesser capable version of the same thing. The point is that in one movie a character does something broadly similar and relevant in the first as he later does in the second, and in another movie the character does nothing at all resembling what she does in the second in the first.

Do you think it was a coincidence that ANH pointed out he was used to flying in canyons and just happened to be end up flying in a (metal) canyon? Do you think it was a coincidence that ANH point it out he was used to shooting a exhaust port sized rodents while flying in said canyon when he just happened to end up shooting a rodent sized exhaust port in a steep sided metal trench?

This thing you seem confused about is called movie writing. I understand your issue as we very rarely see it these days, but its absence is acutely noted when a modern film is intimately linked a quality property from a time people knew how to do it.

This is part of why I bring the gender thing up: because Luke is being held to a different standard in this discussion than Rey.

You have yet to establish this in any way shape or form. And now its confirmed you are using this as a screen to avoid addressing the arguments arrayed against you.

Now, granted, their might be more than one reason for that- Episode IV is a better-written and directed film. Also, Luke has long been established as an iconic character, which means he gets the benefit of nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses.

But the fact remains that, for whatever reasons, Luke is being held to a different standard, to the point that you and Khaat are both severely twisting canon to justify it- as in you actually asserting that flying a star fighter in combat conditions and making a shot that veteran pilots found difficult is "essentially the same thing" as screwing around in a civilian craft on Tatooine. Or both you and Khaat essentially arguing that no, all the indications that it was a difficult-bordering-on-impossible shot in the film, and the film's clear intent to that effect, don't really count. Anything to make Luke's shot seem more "plausible" compared to "Mary Sue" Rey.

Yeah, I gave you a long, reasoned, numbered list supporting all of this. A list you have yet to address. So this is technically a concession by you.

News flash, rookies put in good and even amazing performances all the time. Above and beyond what you expect, but even rookies get recruited out of somewhere. Even walk ons have to pass tryouts. This is what Rey is missing, this bare minimum of characterization. The problem isn't that Rey performed something amazing, its that it was not set up correctly in a dramatic enterprise.

See: this is what I'm talking about.

Rey is show routinely piloting a land speeder, working on and around space craft components, and says she has piloted stuff before. This is reduced to being the equivalent of "I just drove down the street once."

1.) She is not shown routinely piloting a land speeder. We are SHOWN her doing that twice.
2.) Space craft components are irrelevant.
3.) Her piloting establsihment is to stress how little she has done, not how very much.

Yes, this is exactly "grandpappy let me drive his Caddy down the driveway once. (now with TRR bonus commentary track "WHHHHOOOAAAA THATS AWESOME!!!! THATS SO MUCH COOLER THAN THOSE BOYS")" That's all she is given. Sorry, thats the breaks.

Anakin flies pod-racers (distinctly NOT space-capable), and IIRC its mentioned in the film that he never finished a race prior to the movie. This is treated as a more credible basis for him being a successful starfighter pilot, despite the fact that he's a little kid.

Exactly? Was your intent to tell us how just how superior Anakin's driving experience characterization is to Rey's?

Double-standard. Maybe its not about gender. But for whatever reason, you clearly are not holding Rey to the same standard as her predecessors.

There's our comfortable safety blanket again...

There is no double standard for anyone here but you. I am using a single consistent standard, "how much characterization did a protagonist get for the things we see them do later." This has been consistently applied by everyone else here. You literally just typed out the evidence for both Rey and Anakin and then willfully stated 1+1 = 3 for Rey, and 0 for everyone else .

You see the problem, you even state it outright, you just don't like the answer. You have admitted over and over again that Rey is under characterized compared to Luke and Anakin but insist the result is the same. Learn to math son!

Sure. But he was still able to fly a completely unfamiliar type of craft, in combat conditions, and end up as one of the ten percent or so of pilots present who survived, in addition to making that final shot. Hell, he outlasted Wedge fucking Antilese.

Just from looking at them visually, not even taking into consideration form and function, which do you think is more dissimilar? Luke's T-16 and an X-wing or Rey's landspeeder and the MC? This is am objective comparison, the right answer is obvious but I'll just quote someone more knowledgeable on such things:

"T-16s are a lot like the snubfighters we're using." "I know, I looked one over. I'm sure I can handle it."

I'll let you puzzle of who said that, and when. Hint: Its REALLY relevant.

The lengths to which you and Khaat are going to bend over backwards to downplay what Luke did in order to make Rey seem more ridiculous are getting quite silly.

You could say it as that, or you could say its just evidence we are not into wanking characters like you are with (to?) Rey?

There is, to my knowledge, no evidence that Obi-wan was actively assisting Luke's use of the Force. He literally just gave him a five second psychic pep talk to remind him to use the Force rather than do things the "conventional" way.

And while you are correct that Luke was not relying on purely latent ability, in contrast to Rey, I will point again to Anakin as a precedent for latent ability aiding piloting.

I didn't say Obi Wan assisted him using the force, I said he REMINDED him to use it himself. He had to do that because he, a Jedi Master, did not believe in this latent force ability mumbo jumbo you peddle.

Its kind of funny that you are actively diminishing Luke's achievements in order to make him seem better as a character compared to Rey. And I'm saying this as an unapologetic Luke fan boy.

Translation: You are saying this as an nonobjective observer, so we should be discounting most of what you say as unreliable.

Here is your problem, you are wanking Luke. As much as you complain about double standards you are the one putting the male on the pedestal here. You are the one downplaying Rey. You haven't really provided reasons for doing either. Its almost like you have a predilection to build up the achievements of one character over another due a quality unrelated to the actions on screen....

Oh, you don't like that (and don't pretend your sphincter didn't clench in rage as you read that, nobody would believe you)? Then stop doing it to others.

And by the way, I am saying not impressive relative to what we are comparing them to, which is Rey's performance. This is literally the topic of this entire exchange, so yeah...

You are really going to some... impressive extents to bash Rey.

I mean, I sure thought that the film sure treated it as impressive. I kind of thought that was the point of the big build-up, with the multiple failed runs, including a failed shot by the presumably veteran commander of the squadron, and the Rebel pilot saying it was an impossible shot even for a computer, and Luke having to use the Force to do it, before he saves the entire Rebellion in the nick of time by making that big climactic shot.

But I guess it was nothing extraordinary after all. Silly me.

Again, impressive relative to Rey.

However, you seem to have misunderstood that scene. The triumph of it comes from the consequences of what takes place, not from the performance of Luke. Nor does it matter if it was Luke, unless you think if Red Leader had done it the response would have been different. Do you think Luke or Red Leader wouldn't have gotten a medal if they had strolled up the exhaust port unopposed and came back proclaiming it was a piece of cake?

You don't seem to be up on your military culture but there are lots of stories where soldiers try and refuse medals because while the results of their actions turned out momentous or consequential they don't consider their actions individually noteworthy. They were just the ones in the right place at the right time. They just happened to be the SECOND person out of the trench. The enemy just happened to throw that grenade in the foxhole five feet over there. They just happened to be they guy who survived, so they are there to get the medal. They are promptly chastised for thinking they are getting that medal for their own vanity, instead of wearing it for others both to honor (the dead) and inspire (the living). People need heroes, even if we foist that honorific onto the best vessel available because of pesky things like most heroes dying during events that prompt awkward movie finale medal ceremonies. Its even better if the stand in is an involved hero himself (like Luke). That ain't the best lense, however, to evaluate the mechnics of that persons actually involvement in the affair. As I said, Luke just stayed alive, partly because he was being protected by those who died, and got to make an unopposed (eventually) torpedo run.

It the case of Rey, however, her performance doesn't matter to anyone at that point. Had she died the entire SW universe wouldn't have even spared the energy to yawn. And of course she didn't get a medal ceremony. However, I hope you realize your reaction to the post DS explosion in ANH is skewed if you though they were all cheering and happy just because Luke is so freaking awesome. There was a bit more to it that that.

There's no indication that he telekinetically pushed the torpedoes- but if he did, that would likely be a far more impressive feat than simply using the Force to assist his piloting/targeting, and actually make Luke's feat more ridiculously impressive, not less. Which would strengthen my argument.

Yeah, that was my point. But it didn't so your position remains weak.

And sure, he was shooting at a stationary target... while moving very fast, trying not to crash into the walls of the trench, aiming at a target that was only slightly wider than the torpedoes he was trying to fire down it, and which prior attack runs had failed to hit.

We wend over this already, however do you think Begger's Canyon was straight as an arrow? Do you think womp rats are stationary? Which one's more impressive again, flying straight and shooting stationary targets or flying not straight and hitting moving targets?

As noted, Red Leader was being shot at. Luke wasn't.

Or the Will of the Force.

Simple viewers require simple movies.

No way to say weather Red Leader would have made it under the same circumstances as Luke. All we know is that Red Leader didn't make it, and Luke did, by using a technique that was unavailable to any of the other pilots there.

Red Leader didn't make it....while being shot at. You can't make the comparison you want to, Luke had the easiest run of all the pilots that got a shot at the port. This doesn't suggest the force was needed to make the shot.

But I'm not going to spend any more time trying to convince you that Luke hitting the Death Star port was a big deal, because this is getting too silly.

You concession is accepted. Thats what it means when you refuse to address arguments made.

I strongly suspect, in hindsight, that he was using the Force latently, just like Anakin and Rey. Because otherwise, him surviving that fight, with or without help, when 90% of the pilots present bought it and he had never flown an X-wing or flown in space combat before, would be every bit as implausible as anything Rey did. I expect, barring some EU statement on it, there's no way to prove it either way, however.

In your mind, do you believe that when bomber formations went over Germany in WWII 100% of survivors were veterans, and 100% of rookies were included in the casualties?

You seem to be suggesting that if any rookie survives, all or at least most veterans must be dead already. Or that surviving in and of itself makes you the most impressive person that went out in the first place vice the only one left to honor. That the person who brings the baton across the finish line is more important that the person who passed it to them (and in Luke's case died passing it to him).

When I watch the ANH Death Star scene I see a heroic Luke, but I also see far more competent and brave pilots doing far more impressive things like taking it upon themselves to be the first ones int he trench at the height of enemy opposition. But hey, you go for the shiny living object.

I'll also point out that Rey might have been flying in more difficult terrain, but it was also terrain she personally was likely very familiar with, and it was likely at considerably lower velocities.

I drive by lots of buildings on my way to work. I have even been in many of them. The giant one I work in I know like the back of my hand. I couldn't drive my car through it without killing myself, or at least destroying my car. The chances for me and my vehicle doesn't change if I do it with an F-16 instead of a Toyota.

Again, I acknowledge that their may be other reasons why people hold Luke to a different standard, but in some cases it is about gender, I think. And unfortunately, once a meme takes root, people start buying into it unthinkingly, even if they don't have the same motives.

I am not calling anyone here a misogynist. The closest I came was probably my "its okay because he has a dick" comment to Khaat earlier, and that was partly just me repaying needless snideness in kind.

You make it sound like I am using accusations of sexism to dodge having to refute others' arguments. This is not the case. I have provided multiple counterarguments (which have been met by some of the most ridiculous rebuttals I've ever seen) that had nothing to do with gender.

And I mentioned it because I think that in some cases, it applies. As to weather it applies to any specific person posting in this thread, I can't say.

I didn't make it sound like that. This is exactly what I said. You continue to do this.

In summary:

Nothing Rey does is necessarily extraordinarily implausible or rediculous by the established standards of the Star Wars franchise. However, the inferior presentation (and the fact that A New Hope is a beloved classic) may make it harder for some of the audience to suspend disbelieve for Rey and TFA.

You just called her a Mary Sue.

Also, for whatever reason (and in some cases, though not all, I do think its partly about gender), I also feel Luke and Anakin are being held to a laxer standard of criticism and evidence than Rey.

Do you want to support this (No, you have not done so yet)?

[The Romulan Republic]

Patroklos, I tried to get through that extremely long-winded piece of bull shit but... fuck it.

You started this discussion out by asking that I treat you civilly (followed immediately by an accusatory implication of dishonesty on my part). I have tried to converse with you in a reasonable manner and treat you like an adult.

You have responded by, among other things, repeatedly misrepresenting my arguments, misrepresenting or outright ignoring/contradicting canon evidence to laughable extents (the Death Star shot wasn't supposed to be hard? Really? ), broken-record debating, nitpicking, absurd standards of evidence (Rey is only shown flying a speeder twice on-screen, so we must assume that she rarely flew it ), and repeated accusations of dishonesty against me. You have also insinuated that I am myself a misogynist because I am putting Luke on a pedestal, and implied that my arguments in defence of Rey's characterization are based on masturbatory fantasies (because a man could never like a female character for reasons other than her body, am I right?- I'd say that implication says more about you than it does about me).

I could repeat all my points, go through your argument line by line, but I have no reason to believe that you would do anything other than continue to ignore and distort my arguments.

As to the accusation of dishonest, I'll say what I always say when someone falsely tries that line against me: either put your money where your mouth is and report me, or retract the accusation.

As to your argument that the writing of TFA is inferior to A New Hope's: I agree. But it does not follow from that that Rey is a "Mary Sue", by any definition*. Her actions and abilities are all explicable within the established rules of the Star Wars universe, and you more or less acknowledged this yourself. The film's failing in depicting her abilities is that it requires the audience to fill in some of the blanks themselves (if failing that is), but its not hard to do if you're at all familiar with the franchise.

Rey is neither an author insert, nor is she an implausible character or one who bends the setting around her (at least no more than other high-end Force users). Ergo, not a Mary Sue.


*Well, other than "capable female character who makes Alt-Reich man-children uncomfortable, anyway.

[Gandalf]

Shit, even with all the complaining about "male action heros never get this criticism" even John McClane had to be saved as he walked out of Nakatomi tower. When THE archtype 80s male action hero has more vulnerability that your character, you know you done fucked up.

Interestingly, despite the eighties being a period of crazed masculinity in film, the heroes tended to end up pretty bloodied by the end. Even Commando, which I use as a teaching aid to show students that not all screen violence is equal as it's basically a cartoon in places, has Schwarzenegger being helped a lot and he still takes a few decent wounds before the story ends.

[Patroklos]

Patroklos, I tried to get through that extremely long-winded piece of bull shit but... fuck it.

You started this discussion out by asking that I treat you civilly (followed immediately by an accusatory implication of dishonesty on my part). I have tried to converse with you in a reasonable manner and treat you like an adult.

You have responded by, among other things, repeatedly misrepresenting my arguments, misrepresenting or outright ignoring/contradicting canon evidence to laughable extents (the Death Star shot wasn't supposed to be hard? Really? ), broken-record debating, nitpicking, absurd standards of evidence (Rey is only shown flying a speeder twice on-screen, so we must assume that she rarely flew it ), and repeated accusations of dishonesty against me. You have also insinuated that I am myself a misogynist because I am putting Luke on a pedestal, and implied that my arguments in defence of Rey's characterization are based on masturbatory fantasies (because a man could never like a female character for reasons other than her body, am I right?- I'd say that implication says more about you than it does about me).

I could repeat all my points, go through your argument line by line, but I have no reason to believe that you would do anything other than continue to ignore and distort my arguments.

As to the accusation of dishonest, I'll say what I always say when someone falsely tries that line against me: either put your money where your mouth is and report me, or retract the accusation.

As to your argument that the writing of TFA is inferior to A New Hope's: I agree. But it does not follow from that that Rey is a "Mary Sue", by any definition*. Her actions and abilities are all explicable within the established rules of the Star Wars universe, and you more or less acknowledged this yourself. The film's failing in depicting her abilities is that it requires the audience to fill in some of the blanks themselves (if failing that is), but its not hard to do if you're at all familiar with the franchise.

Rey is neither an author insert, nor is she an implausible character or one who bends the setting around her (at least no more than other high-end Force users). Ergo, not a Mary Sue.


*Well, other than "capable female character who makes Alt-Reich man-children uncomfortable, anyway.

Blah Blah Blah, you cowardly whiny concession is noted. You just don't or can't address the arguements so we are back to outraged petulant TRR, a defense mechanism as predictable and effective as a rolled armadillo on a highway.

That's not how this board works, however. By the rules of this board you have to say it. Whithout all of the meally mouthed self congratulatory virtue signally woe is me I'm so oppressed self indulgent quibbling to caveat your way out of losing the argument.

What, you think someone's going to report you for your transparent mysogony misdirect, and that pathetic alt-right smoke screen in the last one? You are trying to distract wolves by throwing apples here, nobody gives a fuck about you lame attempts to identity politic your way out of the argument other than to note how pathetically ineffective it is. You think THAT is what you will get reported here? Seriously?