Hogwarts/Hogsmede are transplanted to Westeros.

[LaCroix]

or there's a secret to doing it that nobody knows.

I'm always going with the Full Metal Alchemist recipe to explain that. Flanell certainly would not tell people what he did if it was something similar.

[Simon_Jester]

What would he be keeping secret in that case? I don't know anything about Full Metal Alchemist

[LaCroix]

What would he be keeping secret in that case? I don't know anything about Full Metal Alchemist

Spoiler

That he had to kill a _lot_ of people to absorb their lifeforce in order to create one.

[Khaat]

Spoilers after quotes! Grr!

Spoiler

That he had to kill a _lot_ of people to absorb their lifeforce in order to create one.

[JLTucker]

Spoilers after quotes! Grr!

Spoiler

That he had to kill a _lot_ of people to absorb their lifeforce in order to create one.

That’s interesting. Horcrux creation is similar.

[Simon_Jester]

Hm.

An element to the creation ritual that would cause him to gain a reputation as an evildoer would certainly explain Flamel keeping the secret of its creation, and promulgating a fake but harmless ritual in its place.

In any case, the basic answer to the speculation by TRR that started all this remains the same: Yes, Voldemort never made his own Philosopher's Stone. This should probably not be surprising, since no one ever made one except Flamel. Either:

1) Flamel is the greatest wizard who ever lived by such a huge margin that hundreds of 'merely good' wizards have tried and failed to emulate him even when he told them how he did it... OR...

2) The published ritual for the creation of the Stone doesn't actually work, either because something was left out or because it's a complete fake... OR...

3) There isn't actually a published ritual for it, which for all I know is true now that I think about it.

...

(3) seems unlikely because if that were true, ALL attention regarding how the stone was made would fall on Flamel. He'd be a massive target for every ambitious wizard who wanted to live forever.

(2) allows Flamel to draw attention from himself by saying "look, this is the ritual, this is the same set of instructions I followed, it only worked once for me and I'm sorry if it doesn't work for you."

(1) is possible but still seems kind of unlikely, if only because Flamel isn't famous for that many other amazing achievements.

[Q99]

The Philosopher's Stone could also involve an ingrediant Flamel had but no-one else has found again.

[Raw Shark]

Who says Jon didn't come back a little wrong? Beric Dondarrion claims that it gets worse every time, and this is only Jon's first rodeo. Compared to him, Beric has a belt buckle the size of a hubcap.

"'Sup? My name is Barry, but you can call me the Lightning Lord. I inspired a guerilla rebellion against five better-armed and better-trained factions, and also got killed by Gregor Clegane this week and shook it off like a paper cut. What the fuck have you done, your laundry?"

[The Romulan Republic]

Hm.

An element to the creation ritual that would cause him to gain a reputation as an evildoer would certainly explain Flamel keeping the secret of its creation, and promulgating a fake but harmless ritual in its place.

In any case, the basic answer to the speculation by TRR that started all this remains the same: Yes, Voldemort never made his own Philosopher's Stone. This should probably not be surprising, since no one ever made one except Flamel. Either:

1) Flamel is the greatest wizard who ever lived by such a huge margin that hundreds of 'merely good' wizards have tried and failed to emulate him even when he told them how he did it... OR...

2) The published ritual for the creation of the Stone doesn't actually work, either because something was left out or because it's a complete fake... OR...

3) There isn't actually a published ritual for it, which for all I know is true now that I think about it.

...

(3) seems unlikely because if that were true, ALL attention regarding how the stone was made would fall on Flamel. He'd be a massive target for every ambitious wizard who wanted to live forever.

(2) allows Flamel to draw attention from himself by saying "look, this is the ritual, this is the same set of instructions I followed, it only worked once for me and I'm sorry if it doesn't work for you."

(1) is possible but still seems kind of unlikely, if only because Flamel isn't famous for that many other amazing achievements.

Flammel might have even conceivably gotten lucky, chanced on the correct formula, but not know what he did or how to duplicate it. I get the sense that the scientific method isn't a huge thing with wizards.

Though... wasn't their a line in Philosopher's Stone that their had been other reports of stones, and that Flammel's was just the only one currently in existence? Or am I misremember/confusing fan fic with canon?

I can also absolutely see Flammel keeping the formula secret. Selfish? Maybe. But their are enough serious implications to introducing casual immortality (not to mention the inflation risk from easy gold creation) that I think he'd have good reason to. But then he'd have to be fairly well-protected, I imagine.

Who says Jon didn't come back a little wrong? Beric Dondarrion claims that it gets worse every time, and this is only Jon's first rodeo. Compared to him, Beric has a belt buckle the size of a hubcap.

"'Sup? My name is Barry, but you can call me the Lightning Lord. I inspired a guerilla rebellion against five better-armed and better-trained factions, and also got killed by Gregor Clegane this week and shook it off like a paper cut. What the fuck have you done, your laundry?"

Well, Jon did follow up his resurrection by fucking his aunt. Though by Targaryen standards, that's pretty tame.

[Simon_Jester]

The big problem with Flamel (one M) keeping the formula secret is that everyone has every reason to try and beat or sneak the Stone's secrets out of him.

There are ways around this (publicly swear an Unbreakable Oath to never reveal anything about it, become a perfect Occlumens, and so on). But it still means there will be a lot of dark wizards who, like magical Woody Allens, don't want to achieve immortality through their Horcruxes, they want to achieve immortality through not dying.

By contrast, if he publishes a credible recipe for the stone, this is less of a problem. At least somewhat less.

[Raw Shark]

Well, Jon did follow up his resurrection by fucking his aunt. Though by Targaryen standards, that's pretty tame.

Oh c'mon, that's a little tame by my standards. I never actually banged my aunt, or had a sister, but one cousin and I were pretty close.

[The Romulan Republic]

The big problem with Flamel (one M) keeping the formula secret is that everyone has every reason to try and beat or sneak the Stone's secrets out of him.

There are ways around this (publicly swear an Unbreakable Oath to never reveal anything about it, become a perfect Occlumens, and so on). But it still means there will be a lot of dark wizards who, like magical Woody Allens, don't want to achieve immortality through their Horcruxes, they want to achieve immortality through not dying.

By contrast, if he publishes a credible recipe for the stone, this is less of a problem. At least somewhat less.

Yeah, that works. Publish a fake recipe and, when no one gets it right, just shrug and go "well, I guess you all must be crappier wizards than me."

Though I still like my idea of "Got a lucky break, and has not the foggiest how to reproduce it."

[Simon_Jester]

Your version would have some advantages.

[Lord Revan]

Those don't have to be mutually exclusive it could be possible that Flamel himself (especially if he's not only one to make the stone just the most recent) was following a "fake" recipe that had a critical ingredient or step removed or altered so that it wouldn't work, but accidently was able to reproduce the missing part but since that was an accident he has no idea what he did differently from the recipe and thus can't tell anyone.

[The Romulan Republic]

You know, if not for the fact that a lot of Rowling's recent writing on Pottermore is of dubious quality, I'd love a flashback story about Nicholas Flamel. Either the manufacture of the Philosopher's Stone, his work with Dumbledore, or both.

Anyway, presuming wizards do decided to throw out the SoS at some point (and they really, really should, because as messy as that would be, it would be nowhere near as messy as trying to implement it in a world that is well aware of magic with such limited numbers, and then have to deal with the likelihood that it will eventually catastrophically fail anyway*)- what would be the most likely point for them to decide to come into the open? And what sort of strategy would they be likely to pursue?

As to when, I think that there are basically four ways that it can happen.

1. Wizards decide to come into the open voluntarily. Unlikely, even for a fairly progressive Wizarding community and government with no ICW to enforce compliance. Though since magic is already known in this world, they'd have to actively work to erase knowledge of its existence, which is going to be a tall order with so few people, no established Ministry, and the dragons and White Walkers about to come back.

2. Some dark wizard breaks the secrecy. Quite likely, if nothing else does it first. It nearly happened on two occasions at least in the 20th. Century. The first serious Dark Lord that comes along will likely blow everything open. And that would be a really bad way for the Muggles to find out.

3. Someone on the Westrosi side of things with magical abilities finds them and exposes them. Melisandra and Bran being prime candidates, I believe. Bran probably will once his abilities develop, if nothing exposes them sooner. Especially since I placed them in Stark Lands, and Winter is Coming.

4. The wizards intervene openly against the White Walkers, which is probable given the scope and magical nature of the threat (unless they have a complete imbecile/bastard for a leader at the time, anyway, and even then, I'd expect members of Dumbledore's faction going rogue). This might be the best time for them to do it from a PR perspective, since they get to be the Big Damn Heroes. Mass incendios (or Fiendfyre) from stealthed flying units would potentially mop up the White Walkers with zero casualties, at least if they can deal with, or prevent, the undead dragon issue.

Which strategies and tactics they'd be likely to employ beyond that would of course depend on the circumstances, and on who's in power at the time. I think, again, that Dumbledore would probably try to minimize involvement with the Muggles, not because he's prejudiced, but because he has a lot of unpleasant associations with trying to intervene in Muggle affairs "for the greater good". In short, he will fear becoming a second Grindlewald.

If a pure blood fanatic takes power... then either hardline isolationism or conquering the Muggles via Imperius Curse and/or terror campaigns, depending on the situation and the individual in question.

If they do decide to involve themselves, then they can go basically four routes:

1. Remain hidden while occasionally conferring with Muggle leaders, as per their traditional approach. I don't know if the lords would accept that, but I doubt they'd have much choice in the matter. Obliviate witnesses, etc. Problematic for a number of reasons, and probably infeasible long-term.

2. Power behind the throne. Imperius the lords. Kill those who can't be imperiused. I can't imagine Dumbledore or any of his inner circle sanctioning this willingly, though. And it could lead to major revolts if enough of the Westrosi figure out that their leaders are puppets. Maybe the Faith Militant? History repeats itself...

3. Come into the open as just another sect of magic users. Maybe set themselves up as consultants to Muggle leaders. Trade magical goods. Again, I don't think Dumbledore would go for this very readily, but they could probably establish a fairly prosperous and respected niche for themselves, and the Starks will deal fairly with them. However, they'd have to "bend the knee", and I don't see them doing that willingly, nor the Starks or Crown being able to force them to.

Probably a state of cold war results. Wizards die if they get caught outside their lands, but the Muggles can't find their way in, unless they get their own magical allies to help penetrate the defenses (in which case, the Hogwarts wizards will try to assassinate or capture their counterparts on the other side).

Wizards on the side of the Starks (as unlikely as it is) would utterly change (or prevent) Robert's Rebellion/the War of the Five Kings, however. Apparition/disillusionment, properly applied, is a game-breaker. Walls don't matter. Guards don't matter. Armies don't matter. Dumbledore or Harry could apparate into the Red Keep, apparate out with Aerys and Rhaegar in a full body-bind, then use magic to find Lyanna, and heal her after childbirth, in a matter of hours or days potentially (I only say "potentially" because the mechanics of how things like long-range tracking spells work is a bit unclear from the books). Or break into the dungeons and rescue Ned Stark. Sansa too. Etc.

Potterverse magic is only mediocre in open conflict, but if you're using it to fight a pitched battle in the field, especially again Muggles, then you've fucked up. It is horrifyingly well-suited to espionage and insurgencies.

4. Openly declare themselves as a sovereign state and dare the Starks and Crown to do anything about it. They could probably get away with this, at least until Daenerys and her dragons show up (and maybe even then). They've got enough advantages in terms of manufacturing, healing, etc. that they could probably eventually be accepted in exchange for trade deals, once it became clear that attacking them meant paying to have an army march in circles for a few months, unable to see through their concealment charms.




*I've argued before that the SoS in the Potterverse is pretty much doomed to fail sooner or later, due to the increasing population and Muggle surveillance technology, as well as attempts by various wizards to break it (Grindlewald nearly succeeding in the '20s). And when it does come down, its going to be an ungodly disaster, because you're going to have the entire Muggle human population suddenly finding out that they've been lied to, manipulated, and sometimes killed by a shadowy secret society of "superior" beings who can kill them or rewrite their reality on a whim. I'd fully expect mass witch hunts and insane paranoia, genocides, surveillance states, and death camps to be the norm, with Muggle society possibly taking a hard swing back towards theocracy, and experimentation on captured wizards/witches/magical creatures. While on the magical side, Death Eater-type sentiments would become the predominant political view in response. Civil liberties become a historical relic, and the world is plunged into a new dark age of despotism and war.

And the horrible thing is... their are probably people smart enough to know that this is where its heading, but they can't do a damn thing about it, because ending the Statute of Secrecy risks the very disaster they'd be trying to prevent. So they're stuck trying to uphold a bad policy that maybe made some sense five hundred years ago, even though they'll inevitably fail, and the longer they hold out, the worse it may be when it all comes crashing down.

Its quite hideous, when you think about it. Almost makes you think that a Grindlewald victory in the '20s really would have been "for the greater good". So if I was a wizard, and had a chance to start over in a new world, with a clean slate- fuck yes, I'm taking it.

Oh, another nice thing about being in a new world- no more fucking Dementors.

Huh. You know, it says some not very nice things about the Potterverse that their are at least two big ways in which fucking Westeros is arguably less grimdark.

[The Romulan Republic]

Imperius Joffery into not being a murderous shit head- the one justifiable use of the Imperius Curse?

[Solauren]

Imperius Joffery into not being a murderous shit head- the one justifiable use of the Imperius Curse?

Better: Imperius on Robert to actually love Cersei. Make require potions as well.

[The Romulan Republic]

Imperius Joffery into not being a murderous shit head- the one justifiable use of the Imperius Curse?

Better: Imperius on Robert to actually love Cersei. Make require potions as well.

No, because that would be rape.

Better to just mind-control Tywin so he never arranges that miserable cluster fuck of a marriage to begin with. And Jaime or Cersei or both so that they stay on opposite sides of the continent.

Although, in all seriousness, I can see Tywin being one of those who could throw off an Imperius through strength of will. He's a monster, but I can't see him being easy to control.

[Elheru Aran]

Realistically: Hogwarts/Hogsmeade can't declare itself a sovereign state. Certainly it could *try*. But it'd be more trouble than it's worth since Aerys won't stand for it, and the Houses give him at least nominal loyalty.

More likely they take the maester approach, and promote the image of themselves as powerful yet without any particular factional loyalty. Magical artifacts and toys would be pretty useful items of trade. The fact that there's a whole community of them springing out of nowhere is going to concern the Powers that Be, there's no way around that, so their only realistic course of action is to either a.) hide (which won't last, one way or another) or b.) come out on their own terms.

Particularly if they meet up with the Starks first, or any of the Houses with only a nominal loyalty to the Targaryens, they'll come to understand the political situation is extremely tenuous and intervening materially on one side or another could endanger them. Active neutrality is the best practical solution, if not the ideal one, sort of a similar situation to the Maesters and the Watch.

[The Romulan Republic]

Realistically: Hogwarts/Hogsmeade can't declare itself a sovereign state. Certainly it could *try*. But it'd be more trouble than it's worth since Aerys won't stand for it, and the Houses give him at least nominal loyalty.

Well, I figure that realistically, its that or secrecy, because given wizarding norms, laws, and culture, their is simply no way that they submit to a Muggle feudal king, or can be made to submit by force of arms unless said king acquires his own magic users.

I also don't see why they couldn't. I mean, long-term, complete isolation might possibly screw them due to inbreeding, due to their small population. And as previously discussed in this thread, food shortages might be an issue (though I suspect one that magic can somewhat mitigate). But otherwise, why not?

The question is how long it would take the Muggle lords to recognize that reality, and weather the wizards would say "fuck it" and either try to Imperius the leadership or go back to secrecy first.

More likely they take the maester approach, and promote the image of themselves as powerful yet without any particular factional loyalty. Magical artifacts and toys would be pretty useful items of trade. The fact that there's a whole community of them springing out of nowhere is going to concern the Powers that Be, there's no way around that, so their only realistic course of action is to either a.) hide (which won't last, one way or another) or b.) come out on their own terms.

Perhaps, but that still entails being expected to bow to the king and serve his will.

Also, its not really like the Maesters (or the Watch), because being a wizard isn't a career you choose in exchange for taking an oath and accepting certain limitations (like not having families)- its something you are born with, and they already have a distinct culture and society.

Particularly if they meet up with the Starks first, or any of the Houses with only a nominal loyalty to the Targaryens, they'll come to understand the political situation is extremely tenuous and intervening materially on one side or another could endanger them. Active neutrality is the best practical solution, if not the ideal one, sort of a similar situation to the Maesters and the Watch.

See above.

Although, I wonder if (depending on when they come into the open and how informed they are about local politics first) they could make some sort of a deal. Like- we help you kick Aerys off the throne/rescue Lyanna etc., in exchange for giving us our independence after the war. After all, we're only claiming a few square miles of previously uninhabited land in the very large and sparsely-populated North, and you do owe us...

Maybe even officially acknowledge the authority of the Crown, and pledge to offer the Crown aid in time of war, in exchange for being given complete self-governance over their own affairs. After all, they're willing to at least give token acknowledgement to the British PM in canon (or is that only in the books- I don't recall if it ever came up in the films). Hum, I've probably been mixing up book and film canon quite a bit in this thread, though I doubt it changes the overall conclusions much- my apologies nonetheless.

I don't know if the Starks would make such a deal (though desperation can be a real motivator), but its not an unreasonably huge price to demand for the aid the wizards could offer them, and I'm damn sure Ned would honor it once it was made, and urge Robert to do so as well.

If it happens as late as the White Walker invasion, Jon would make that deal, and stick by it, I think. He was flexible enough regarding tradition to ally the Watch with Wildlings, then quit the Watch. He'll take the practical route here.

Edit: And then Daenerys arrives and demands that they bow. Although, given all the changes that would have occurred to the timeline... major events after the first few years (at the latest) are likely to be very, very different. Maybe Jon never goes to the Wall. Maybe Danny dies as a child. Or any number of other possibilities.

[The Romulan Republic]

Another question that occurred to me is the effects of cultural interaction over the long term.

Contrary to how far too many fan fics portray it, Wizarding British culture is really not feudal in nature. Not even close. Its bigoted, and leans authoritarian in law enforcement (with a large side of corruption), but its not at all Medieval/pseudo Medieval, except to a highly limited degree in visual style. Government offices are either appointed or elected, not hereditary, based on all canonical evidence. The only real parallels I can think of are the presence of formalized dueling (although its rare- their are only two clear examples I can recall of formal duels in canon, and one was basically a schoolboy's prank, while the other was Voldemort trying and pathetically failing to show how superior he was to Harry), as well as some vague allusions to "nobility" which don't appear to mean much and might just be posturing by some of the more arrogant and prejudiced wealthy pure bloods. Also, there appears to be zero evidence for arranged marriages of any sort, including as a means of cementing political alliances and/or acquiring valuable assets.

Militarily, there really is no indication of a standing wizarding army, but what standing government forces they do have are full-time professional law enforcement, with other forces seemingly more like private security (Gringotts goblins), private vigilante militias which are only activated in war time (Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore's Army), or local citizens' militias defending the territory of oppressed racial groups (I would guess that this is what the Centaur and Merman fighters effectively are). Very different from what the typical Westrosi model seems to be, that of "King/Lord Paramount calls his banners, those lords under him call the knights sworn to them, plus peasant levies padded out with some mercenaries (though the Lannisters seem to have a more professional army, at least).

Supposing something like my "best case scenario" plays out- wizards come into the open and throw in with House Stark and its allies at some point, in exchange for being granted control over their own affairs and trade with the Muggles, while theoretically acknowledging the pre-eminence of the King and possibly pledging assistance to the Crown in the event of war- How would the two cultures and political systems interact? This is somewhat difficult to answer, partly because the existing Wizarding system would be in turmoil initially, but I have some thoughts on the subject.

You might think that Westrosi lords would be wanting to arrange marriages, (particularly with the possibility of wizard children being born into their house- hmm, would said children then be under the authority of their house, or part of the separate Wizarding nation, or both?). But that's really not in-step with Wizarding cultural values, and the parts of the Wizarding culture that would be most likely to be amenable to telling their kids who they should marry for political reasons are also probably the ones who would be most likely to turn their noses up at intermixing with "dirty" muggle blood. And for that matter, I expect that you'd probably see a lot of lords turning up their noses at the wizards because they may be wizards, but they're also commoners.

Though I suppose its only a matter of time before some wizards earn themselves knighthoods or something, if they're fighting alongside Westrosi and under a Westrosi King. Unless there's explicitly a prohibition on wizards being made knights/nobles (the obligations of a knight might clash with/complicate the treaty arrangements I postulated above).

We might also well have rules against intermarrying, because of the issues that would be created by having some of the noble houses having wizards loyal to them while others didn't, perhaps? The status of the Watch has been previous discussed- it sets a precedent for a group who are forbidden from having families, though as I said before, the circumstances are extremely different.

And then we have incompatibilities of the legal system in general. For example, suppose a wizard is accused of a crime? Would the wizards be subjected to their own justice, or Westrosi justice? Or to the former if they commit a crime in their own territory, the latter if they commit a crime in the rest of Westeros? I mean, its not as though a Westrosi dungeon and guards would have an easy time holding anything above a mediocre wizard, even if said wizard were deprived of their wand. There's a reason, besides sadism and appeasement, that they surround their prisoners with dementors, hideous as it is. If we have wizard nobles, do they get the right to trial by combat? If so, are they required to relinquish their wands and fight with melee weapons to keep the trial from being even more of a farce than trial by combat inherently is? What if a wizard uses wandless magic in a duel? Is that cheating?

On this note, interestingly, I seem to recall reading somewhere (might have been Pottermore, or referencing Pottermore) that back in the day, it was common for wizards to carry weapons (like Gryfindore's sword) in case of duels with muggles, because it was considered unfair to use magic on them. Though I can also see applications against magic-resistant creatures like dragons and giants (if the wizard or witch in question was either very desperate or extremely ballsy Gryffindore).