Does Batman have super powers?

[The Romulan Republic]

Reposting a topic of mine from the SFDebris forums:


Simple question. Or not.

Now, people often joke that Batman's real super power is being rich. But that's not what this is about. Its also true that he (in typical action hero style) pulls off physical feats and takes physical beatings that ought to be impossible, or cripple or kill a real person. That is also not what this is about.

My idea is that Batman does have a super power, but its a subtle one, and not usually thought of as one. Namely, super human strength of will. After all, extraordinary will power is a mental trait, and mental powers are nothing new. And Batman has a ridiculous level of dedication to his cause. Its that will that has driven him to become a super hero, to train himself and dedicate his resources, indeed his entire life, to the cause.

Is it beyond what any real human could posses? Maybe, maybe not. Probably depends on the version. But its an interesting thought.

Its also basically spelled out in both the Justice League cartoon and Batman Begins, I believe. In one episode of the former, IIRC, a villain comments on Batman's lack of powers and he replies that his power is that he never gives up. And in Batman Begins, when Ras is training Bruce, they have an exchange which goes something like this:

Ras: "Your parents' death was not your fault. It was your father's."

(Bruce attacks Ras).

Ras: "Anger does not change the fact that your father failed to act."

Bruce: "The man had a gun!"

Ras: "Would that have stopped you?"

Bruce: "I've had training."

Ras: "But training is nothing! Will is everything. The will to act."

(Emphasis mine).

Thoughts?

[mr friendly guy]

It would be hard to test it. For example, super strength could be tested by seeing how much someone can lift. How do you test super will power? I mean even a determined man cannot lift more than what his body is physically able to, even if he has super will power.

The only way you could potentially test this in comic book universes, is to have some sort of mind control power and Batman is strong enough to resist whereas X number of ordinary people were taken over simultaneously.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, I suppose.

Though maybe if neuroscientists figured out which genes or which chemicals in the brain control strength of will, they could measure that and determine if Bruce has abnormally high levels of those?

[Bedlam]

Yeah, I suppose.

Though maybe if neuroscientists figured out which genes or which chemicals in the brain control strength of will, they could measure that and determine if Bruce has abnormally high levels of those?

It may depend on how you qualify a super power. By that measure Olympic level athlete's have super powers, if you measured gene expression and hormone levels you'd probably find many of them as outliers which abnormally high (or low depending on gene function) levels. At what point do you stop being merely gifted and become superhuman?

[The Romulan Republic]

That's a fair point. It might not (in fact, probably doesn't) qualify as something literally superhuman/super natural- or at any rate not quantifiably so. And indeed, part of Batman's character is that he does NOT have super powers, but made himself into what he is through training and discipline. But that's kind of the point: his extraordinary will and dedication is arguably, more than anything else, what makes Bruce Wayne capable of being Batman, and thus fills the same role that super powers do for other characters.

Of course, partly it also depends on weather you regard something like "strength of will" (or thought processes) in general to be purely physical, the result of genes and chemical reactions, or something more- weather, in other words, you believe in things like free will and the soul.

[mr friendly guy]

There are a few problems with the chemical concentration method.

1. Does double the concentration of a chemical responsible for willpower = double the willpower?

While I can accept an increase in the chemical will cause an increase in willpower, I am not sure if its a 1:1 correlation.

2. What happens if the chemical receptors become saturated?

If every receptor has the chemical binding it, increasing the concentration of the chemical isn't going to help. Although it might be useful to resist "will sapping chemicals" if they compete for the same receptor assuming the will sapping chemical is a reversible agonist.

I think if you're going to have a super hero with super willpower, I think you either going to have
a. My example of mindcontrol resistance
b. Have writers outright state it.

[mr friendly guy]

If every receptor has the chemical binding it, increasing the concentration of the chemical isn't going to help. Although it might be useful to resist "will sapping chemicals" if they compete for the same receptor assuming the will sapping chemical is a reversible agonist.

Too late to edit. It should read reversible antagonist, not agonist.

[Zixinus]

His semi-official superpower is that he has reached a peak of human potential and self-control. Physically, martially, mentally, psychologically. Near-endless willpower is more of an outward manifestation of this, as well as his self-control and dedication. All the rest of his character is to make the rest of him possible. All of his being is dedicated to the higher cause of justice. Any strength he can have comes from within, not without. This seems to be a rather consistent trait: he is utterly under control of himself in all but the most heated and emotional moments.

He is Doc Savage in a costume and more tragic backstory, no guns or military background.

[Crazedwraith]

"That man won't give up so long as he draws breath. None of my team will." Superman on Batman, JLU.

Are we talking superhuman for reality or superhuman for DC here? Because there are a lot of fictional protagonists with that kind of willpower. Take the lead of almost any action film for example. Or anyway who gets a 'determinator' entry on tvtropes.

[Batman]

In-universe there should be a reasonably easy and verifiable way to test for this-am I excessively more resistant to telepathic mind control than others?
The DCU universe is lousy with mindbenders, surely if I were all but immune to them that'd have come up by now?

[Isolder74]

In-universe there should be a reasonably easy and verifiable way to test for this-am I excessively more resistant to telepathic mind control than others?
The DCU universe is lousy with mindbenders, surely if I were all but immune to them that'd have come up by now?

My mind is not a nice place to be…

As far as I've ever seen, Batman isn't immune but he's taken the precaution of seeking out and learning as many mental control technics as he can. While he's not immune getting into his mind, if he knows you are trying, is fairly difficult or just plain frustrating. Attempting it could result in getting a very annoying tune stuck in your head for days afterwards at best or a head ache especially after Batman punches you for trying.

[Batman]

Yes, but that brings us back to 'is it a superpower or something everybody (at least in the DCU) can learn to do?' Because what you describe sounds like mental discipline and training, not an inherent advantage.

[Isolder74]

Yes, but that brings us back to 'is it a superpower or something everybody (at least in the DCU) can learn to do?' Because what you describe sounds like mental discipline and training, not an inherent advantage.

In the context of the DCU, it isn't a superpower as it's something that anyone can learn to do. it's just that no one else seems to bother to go about it in such a large scale.

[Batman]

Can't say I blame them. Look at what I had to become to get there.

But I mainly wanted to get the superpower yes or no out of the way so thank you for the clarification

[Q99]

Batman is beyond human level in most areas... buuut so are most other high-end 'normal human' supers and a lot of cimenatic movie and TV heroes.

Also... Batman has hit the limits of his mental endurance before. Sure, he comes back, but he's still been in some pretty down places. Tis why the Batfamily is so important.

[Bedlam]

Yes, but that brings us back to 'is it a superpower or something everybody (at least in the DCU) can learn to do?' Because what you describe sounds like mental discipline and training, not an inherent advantage.

In the context of the DCU, it isn't a superpower as it's something that anyone can learn to do. it's just that no one else seems to bother to go about it in such a large scale.

By the same argument there are possibly a fair amount of 'super powers' anyone could learn by hard work and study in the DC Universe. As far as I know you don't actually need anything special about you to learn magic. Certainly in some cases it seems to be a bloodline thing (Zartara) but I don't think there's anything special about say John Constantine (Although there has been some mention of some sort of curse on his family).

[Elheru Aran]

IIRC, whenever he gets his hands on a Green Lantern ring-- it's happened a few times in the mainstream continuity-- it takes him as its wearer immediately, no questions asked. That suggests that the 'super-willpower' angle, at least, may be a thing.

[Batman]

Unless otherwise instructed Lantern rings will accept anybody as their wearer. Willpower merely affects how effective said wearer is at using them.

[Elheru Aran]

Unless otherwise instructed Lantern rings will accept anybody as their wearer. Willpower merely affects how effective said wearer is at using them.

You sure? Pretty certain they've rejected people before... (but it's been a pretty long time since I've read any Lantern stuff)

[Batman]

'Sure'? Hell no. We're talking half a century's worth of material. But I don't think the issue ever was lack of willpower

[Q99]

Depends on when one is talking about.

Random jerks- I think they were loggers- tried using the rings on Guy and Hal once. They were so weak that even at a distance Guy and Hal could override their wills and prevent the constructs from working.

Only Kyle could use Kyle's ring when it was just the one, genelocked.

Ollie used a copy-ring Hal left him (rings have the ability to duplicate themselves to an extent) in Rebirth.

Nowadays, they'll often fly off in search of a new bearer pretty quick.

----

Personally, I don't think Bruce has any superpowers that Dick Grayson doesn't have.

[Simon_Jester]

The question isn't "do the Green Lantern rings accept Batman as a wearer?"

The question is, "how well does Batman perform with a Green Lantern ring?"

A random bozo trying to use the ring won't get much traction out of it. Hal Jordan gets a LOT of traction because of incredible willpower. Where does Batman fall on that scale?

[Elheru Aran]

We don't know, in the mainstream; he has gotten a Ring a few times but never used it and gave it back. In an Elseworlds story he became the Green Lantern instead of Batman, seemed to get on pretty well. There's a current event right now involving multiple versions of him and one is a Lantern, but I don't know anything about that.

EDIT: it's easy to assume that he would be exceptional with it, of course. A Yellow ring was drawn to him at one point. Don't know about any other Rings. But as noted, he does have impressive willpower, making him a natural fit for the Green.

[Q99]

The question isn't "do the Green Lantern rings accept Batman as a wearer?"

The question is, "how well does Batman perform with a Green Lantern ring?"

A random bozo trying to use the ring won't get much traction out of it. Hal Jordan gets a LOT of traction because of incredible willpower. Where does Batman fall on that scale?

Honestly all the main heroes would be great with a ring- Wonder Woman, Superman, Batman, etc..

Though I gather one of the big arguments for him not having it is he's already effective without a ring, and there's only so many rings (the ring duplication trick is supposed to be a limited-time thing, I think there's rules on it). Batman is effective sans ring. Batman plus KyleGL or HalGL is more effective than BatmanGL plus non-GL Kyle or Hal.

That and Bruce is always worried about becoming lazy and being too reliant on powers once he has them, and has criticized Hal for overusing his ring's power rather than his brain. Heck, one of the first fights with Amazo went down because Amazo neglected the non-ring powers it had.

[Elheru Aran]

IIRC, a while ago (okay, a pretty good while ago) I want to say the superheroes were talking about who would make a good Green Lantern or something like that, and the conversation turned to Batman and everybody got nervous at the thought. That says something about how they feel about Batman to start with, and when augmented by actual superpowers...

Honestly Bruce isn't one for superpowers. He prefers mechanical augmentations like the Bat-suit from New 52 that could counter the entire Justice League (which was kinda stupid-cool). I'd say his 'powers', if anything, are the peak performance/high level of training his body is in, his powerful intelligence, and willpower to carry through said intellect. So 'super' powers... not necessarily... but definitely exceptional in that he manages to be basically peak-human in pretty much every aspect. Except being able to maintain decent relationships with people, but who needs that when you could brood forebodingly on a gargoyle instead...