Being Transgender in a Fantasy/Magical Setting.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Last night was at an LGBT gaming party and started a discussion with some Trans friends of mine as we were playing DND.

In a world setting that ACTUALLY HAS A "Belt of Change Gender" how would being Transgender be effected?
For many I know, The single most difficult aspect is "Transition" the change from being Physical one gender to another.
Of course in many magical settings, People can change gender with a simple magical

Likewise, would there be the same sort of reservations people have for someone saying they a gender than what they 'appear' to be in a world setting where people can magically change ones Gender?

[Simon_Jester]

The first thing to do is to clarify the difference between biological sex and psychological gender, because that affects the mechanics of what happens, and for that matter of whether gender dysphoria would even be a thing in a given setting.

In the real world, we have reason to think that gender dysphoria is caused by people having a male-structured brain in a female-structured body or vice versa. If the chunk of your head that tells you whether you're male or female is wired the wrong way compared to what your chromosomes say, dysphoria seems the likely response.

But fantasy settings tend to adopt pretty strict mind/body dualism; souls are a thing, and they carry all your memories and personality traits with them. At the same time, there often seem to be ways for a person to lose their soul and not die or be rendered mindless. So there's this weird, partially-redundant mind/body/soul triad-ism going on.

The question is, which of those three things carries gender identity, and can it wind up mismatched with the physical body the way that real life brain structures can?

[Crossroads Inc.]

Its interesting you mention how brains are structured in terms of Gender Dysphoria.
For friends of mine who don't always "Get" transgender, I have found using the analogy of "Hardware / Software" to be a good way of explaining that they can understand. It took the longest time to try and explain it to my mom until I used the analogy of an Apple computer that had Microsoft installed on it. ;P

On the topic of "Souls" I could see a situation of souls being "mixed up" where say a "female soul" gets put into a male body. Also with "gods" being a thing, well gods DO like to dick around with the lives of Mortals, so doing things like that could be a thing. The other thing would be "twin souls" ones that are male and female. Shoot that was a thing in ancient greek dramas.

[Zixinus]

Just a minor thought: just how available IS "belt of gender change" and similar gizmos? Because what is available to high-powered, possibly-rich and world-traveled adventures who make a living raiding artifact-filled dungeons and such. Your average farmer, craftsman and so on might not have the same opportunities and access as them.

As for how it would work, it would depend on the culture (and details of the setting). Having a "belt of gender change" (or a spell/potion/whatever with permanent effect) just changes the means of gender-changing. Today in the modern world, a gender-change is a pretty lengthy and expensive. If the society is accepting of gender-change, then sure being transgener is mostly non-issue. But just because that is possible doens't mean that is the case. For example, if there is also a magic spell or psychic or whatever that can make you comfortable with your own gender. If you can change the whole body, why not just change the mismatched brain?

[Lord Revan]

Something to consider, which Crossroads alluded to, is that more of then not gods are real in these universes, so your gender can be literally divinely ordained and trying to change can lead to seriously problems, especially if the society has sharply definied gender roles.

That's not say that it could not make a good side-story, character motivation or character backstory for them to suffer from gender dismorphia in a society where changing ones gender is forbidden thru devine edict. Though one should be careful there as to not end up with a transphobic story there (especially if members of the gaming group belong to that minority)

EDIT:To give an example of the gender roles thing IIRC Drow are highly matriachal (sic) and this comes from their patron goddess, so a male wanting to change gender could be seen as "trying to get to position that doesn't belong to him" by said goddess (Loth IIRC), basically what fundies say about female to male sex changes but this time from an actual divine creature rather then from mortal bigots.

[Q99]

Older D&D stuff didn't really address it, but, say, Pathfinder D&D? In the 'Wrath of the Righteous' adventure path there's a lesbian couple, one of whom sold her family's ancestral sword in order to buy a potion for transition, and the sword-seller is a Paladin. Golarion is relatively LGBT-positive and most major deities are fine with it.

That said, you have to have a fair amount of wealth to afford to do so (most people do not have magic swords passed down to them!), so a fair amount of transgender people won't get the magic- or may chose not to mess with it for various reasons.


Of some note, in Neil Gaiman's Sandman, there was a transwoman, and an old asshole god was like, "No, you're a man!"... but when she died, she was a woman when she met Death.

So one can have different deities or different cultures have different views. Though I like the 'they've had the magic ability for awhile and some supernatural creatures are naturally shapeshifters or agender or such, so generally it's not that big of a cultural issue,' in general.

[Simon_Jester]

On a side note, in First Edition, the magic item that did this was called the "girdle of sex change;" changing to 'gender' was more recent and probably done to avoid the word 'sex.' Given what the item actually DID, "sex change" is a more accurate description, because it magically zaps the wearer and turns them from male to female or vice versa biologically, while having no effect on their mind (unless a given DM houseruled that).

It was treated as a pretty straightforward example of a 'cursed magic item,' one that would occasionally show up on loot tables along with the more common "Girdle of Giant Strength" that adventurers would be willing to put on. Sort of how there were "Cloaks of Invisibility" and "Cloaks of Protection" with an occasional "Cloak of Poisonousness" that would kill you stone dead from poison mixed in.

For example, if there is also a magic spell or psychic or whatever that can make you comfortable with your own gender. If you can change the whole body, why not just change the mismatched brain?

Because that raises deep philosophical questions about which more accurately represents the real person-the body, or the mind/soul?

In a setting without mind/body dualism, by changing the gender identity of the mind you've arguably destroyed and rewritten the person. You could get volunteers for such a process, but gender dysphoria can cause people to voluntarily go jump off a cliff (very high suicide rate), so that doesn't prove much.

In a setting with mind/body dualism, fixing the brain may not actually change anything, there may be no disorder there to fix. Or it may involve altering the mind/soul/spirit/whatever, which maps right back to the problem you have in the absence of mind/body dualism.

[Zixinus]

If belt of "sex change" is supposed to be a cursed artifact, does it deliberately alter one's perception of one's own sex?

Because that raises deep philosophical questions about which more accurately represents the real person-the body, or the mind/soul?

No, that would just make D&D clash with the modern "the mind is the brain" understanding of gender versus the canonical D&D understanding of "soul-body duality". If alterations to the body cannot work to make someone suffering from dysphoria to not have dysphoria, then you have discovered that souls have gender and thus gender dysphoria becomes a expensive-to-cure bodily problem. If not, then from the perspective of someone living in-universe, gender dysphoria is just another strange mental illness*.

* I am not calling gender dyphoria a mental illness in real life.

Actually, I meant it as a "bad solution" where instead of curing the dysphoria, they forcefully alter and damage the mind. Here's a possible nitpick: if the person suffering from "dysphoria" picks this solution over a potion of sex-change, are they wrong?

[Zixinus]

Actually, an interesting conondrum: you are born with what is verifiably a female soul in a male body (or vice-versa). Yet you live in a society where you also know that gods give you your bodies.

What the hell does that mean? The gods made a mistake? The gods punished you? For what?

I'm wondering just from a purely theological standpoint what sort of triple-backflips you need to do.

In a setting without mind/body dualism, by changing the gender identity of the mind you've arguably destroyed and rewritten the person.

On second reading, this reminds me about military boot-camp, where they psychologically deconstruct and reconstruct the person.

So if you are doing that, to the person's benefit (as far as you can tell), are you doing harm? Or are you trying to cure someone? After all, if you rewrite somebody to not have gender dysphoria, aren't you in effect curing them? Are you wrong to do so?

Because the reason nobody respectable talks about curing dysphoria without actual gender-reassignment is that it doesn't work and is just conservative ideology trying to override reality (as far as I know anyway).

[Crossroads Inc.]

Some rather interesting responses so far.
I did some looking into thing, and DND setting in general seems similar to our current world in some things.
Gay and Lesbian individuals seem relatively accepted and not something "Sinful" except for a few Gods who tend to mirror the nastier aspects of Western religions. But, Transgender individuals are basically non existent within the universe.

Actually, I meant it as a "bad solution" where instead of curing the dysphoria, they forcefully alter and damage the mind. Here's a possible nitpick: if the person suffering from "dysphoria" picks this solution over a potion of sex-change, are they wrong?

I can attest from the friends I know and others... That I have yet to meet a Transgender individual who wished for themselves to be "Edited" to feel they are the gender that goes physically vs what is in their brain. So in a setting like DND if there WAS Something like a "Make a MALE Soul believe if it is a FEMALE soul" if said male soul is in a female body... I would imagine it would NOT be utilized unless forced upon someone.

Another question are for rare cases of 'physical' transgendered individual, which are the VERY rare cases of someone whose physical body is typically hard to identify as male or female. These are usually people that get labeled as "Herm" people, even though technically that term is completely incorrect. I would imagine that is a situation that wouldn't come up at all unless a Player Character wants it as part of their story arch.

[Vendetta]

Worth noting:

“Folks, the Realms have ALWAYS had characters (mortals and deities) who crossdressed, changed gender (and not just to sneak past guards in an adventure, by way of shapeshifting magic or illusions), were actively bisexual, and openly gay. How underscored this was by TSR and later Wizards varied over time, and was always softpedaled, because D&D wasn't a sex game, and we generally don't rub the reader's nose in sex unless there's a good in-story reason for it.

“But even deities have changed gender, sometimes for good, and the servants of deities (Elminster, in Elminster: The Making of a Mage) have sometimes been forced by the deity to "spend time as the other" to learn what life is like.

“So it has always been there, and is an integral part of the Realms. With that said, I've never met a gamer yet who doesn't tinker with every adventure to "make it their own" at their own gaming table, so if trans, LGBT, or sexual matters at all don't suit your tastes and needs in your gaming sessions, leave it out or change it.

“But D&D has half-orcs, and half-dragons, and half-elves, and has magic items that specifically change gender, right there in the rules. Surely, if you can handle the basic notion of cross-SPECIES sex, having a full variety of gender roles should be something that doesn't blow your mind.

“If it's not for you, that's fine. I hate wearing certain shades of yellow. But I don't scream and yell at someone I see wearing those shades of yellow, and call them names, and threaten things. My right to dislike yellow applies to me; it doesn't extend to others. Because somehow, through an incredible oversight on the part of the universe that still hasn't been rectified, no one made me a god.”

(Ed Greenwood is the creator of the Forgotten Realms setting, for most people the "standard" D&D setting).

[bilateralrope]

That I have yet to meet a Transgender individual who wished for themselves to be "Edited" to feel they are the gender that goes physically vs what is in their brain.

Is that because they don't like the idea, or because they are limiting themselves to options which are viable today ?

[Crossroads Inc.]

Is that because they don't like the idea, or because they are limiting themselves to options which are viable today ?

It is pretty much antithetical to their personality.
If you woke up tomorrow in a physical body the opposite gender from what you are...
Would you rather work to return your physical form?
Or chang your enter sense of self to conform to the Physical form?

[Simon_Jester]

Put this way, Zixinus.

If I woke up tomorrow with one arm, I wouldn't want a pill to make me feel like I was naturally a one-armed man and that being one-armed was normal for me. I would want my arm back. I might grumble and kvetch about the cost of getting prosthetic arms fitted, but I'd still want one, the best one I could acquire.

If I woke up tomorrow as a woman, I wouldn't want a pill to make me feel like I was naturally supposed to be a woman, I'd want my masculinity back. For basically the same reason. If it took medical treatments or expensive magical spells to turn me back into a man, I'd grumble and kvetch about it and wish there were a cheaper way... but I wouldn't consider "just stay a woman" to be that way.

Transgender people tend to feel much the same way about their situation as would you, a man who is firmly aware of his gender identity, if he abruptly woke up transferred into a woman's body. Insofar as they wish they could be "normal" members of their own biological sex, it is usually because of society and their upbringing giving them a huge reason to wish they could take the 'easier' road.

Sort of like how there are gays raised by religious fundamentalists who wish that some kind of brainwashing could make them "normal." That's not because it is in the nature of gayness to wish you were straight. That's because they have been socialized to believe that their nature is wrong.

If belt of "sex change" is supposed to be a cursed artifact, does it deliberately alter one's perception of one's own sex?

It is almost never played that way.

Some poor hapless schmuck puts on the belt without knowing what it does and ZAP! He's a woman now, biologically. Or she's a man now. And in general, the character (if they're being RPed by someone who gives a shit and isn't in it for giggles) immediately starts trying to find a way to change things back. Gender identity doesn't change, usually.

It's not really a Belt of Change Gender. It's a Belt of Being Pre-op Transgender. The reason it's generally seen as a cursed item is because hey, it turns out gender dysphoria sucks, and most people grasp this when they have to imagine being stuck in the wrong body.

Actually, I meant it as a "bad solution" where instead of curing the dysphoria, they forcefully alter and damage the mind. Here's a possible nitpick: if the person suffering from "dysphoria" picks this solution over a potion of sex-change, are they wrong?

Well, I'd argue it's a better choice than jumping off a cliff, but by how much it's a better choice, I'm not sure.

[Shroom Man 777]

In settings with shapeshifters, shapeshifting as an ability learned through mystic disciplines like druids and whatnot, and heck even connecting to real life old-as-dirt practices of gender fluidity and also societies with more than binary genders, trans-ness really shouldn't be a big deal. There are fucking draggins and magics and dungeons and dinobonoids so what's the big deal, *I'm a smarmy asshole*?

In 7th Sea they went egalitarian and their Abrahamic figure was a divine androgyne supposedly, so even though their swashbuckling Duma-style adventure Renaissance Europe thing is the main theme, we have stuff like normalized gay and other non-cis and non-hetero relations, that's actually practiced by their mainstream religions without any remarks (of course, it's a bit weird that their not-Catholic Church is doing this while otherwise having an alchemist-persecuting, witch-hunting Inquisition).

Jodorowsky has androgynes and other non-cis gender concepts and mythic archetypes played around in his works.