The Prince's View on current Events

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-03-28 06:27pm

Well it got started when someone brought up the fact that The US, & Turkey "created"* Saddam, armed him, and in the last 12 years have used him to like a Machevellian "Bad General". So what would Niccolo think of current events?

*It was help from Turkey that allowed him to first sieze power, his military was greatly strengthed by US involvement during the 1980s when we kept a blind eye to his attrocities. Since the Gulf war his rearment has come in from Turkey, purchased from China and Russia.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-03-28 06:52pm

GWB fucked up big time. He managed to go past "feared" territory and become hated.

I predict a one-term presidency.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-03-28 06:57pm

What I find scary is that even at 4 to 5 centuries old, Machevelli is still very much up to date.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-03-28 06:58pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:What I find scary is that even at 4 to 5 centuries old, Machevelli is still very much up to date.

The classics never die.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-28 07:34pm

Iceberg wrote:GWB fucked up big time. He managed to go past "feared" territory and become hated.

I predict a one-term presidency.

Let's see how this ends up and how the economy goes before declaring the election. In 1995, they were declaring the same for Bubba Clinton, remember?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-03-29 02:08am

True, but I can't exactly handle much more of this (I am thousands in debt, because of my Car loan, the massive hike in Health Insurance, & Auto Insurance after 09-11-2001)

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-03-29 02:21am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:True, but I can't exactly handle much more of this (I am thousands in debt, because of my Car loan, the massive hike in Health Insurance, & Auto Insurance after 09-11-2001)

My health insurance tripled between Oct. '99 and March '02....

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-03-29 02:27am

My car insurance went from $60/month to $150 a month!
My health Insurance has more then tripled, while my wages have only risen by 2.5% a year.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-29 03:30am

Frank Hipper wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:True, but I can't exactly handle much more of this (I am thousands in debt, because of my Car loan, the massive hike in Health Insurance, & Auto Insurance after 09-11-2001)
My health insurance tripled between Oct. '99 and March '02....

This is a result of spurious lawsuits affecting the entire healthcare industry as a whole - And your own changing insurance profile. (IE: It would have gone up regardless of who was in office and what was happening economically, because of who you are, how old you are, what's wrong with you, etc).

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-29 03:40am

Iceberg wrote:GWB fucked up big time. He managed to go past "feared" territory and become hated.

I predict a one-term presidency.

Hated by who? About twenty percent of the populace, Mark, at best? Extreme Core Democrats, Greens, Pat Buchanan, LaRouche, and Harry Browne's merry band of ruinous nuts?

The Bush Presidency rests on two things - The economy and the Iraq War. And those two things are interconnected. We've see that pretty clearly already. If we win the war we won't be dipping below 8,000 again, at least, though we not be doing spectacularly like during the bubble - And we'll have long enough of that sort of performance before the election for the idea of Recovery with a capital R to permeate.

The combination of the two is going to result in whichever of those lamer candidates your party fields - only Gephardt and Lieberman have any really personality and/or genuine ideas, the others are either radicals with no chance or play-dough - and Gephardt is tainted by the midterms, while Lieberman remains too conservative, and too pro-war, considering that will be the devisive, even if it isn't the decisive, issue of the 2004 campaign, to appeal to the current Democrat Core.

The end result is that some John Playdough guy is going to run for the Democrats in 2004 and short of something happening to the USA that I know you don't want to happen to the USA, he will be crushed worse at the polls than Walter Mondale was by the Gipper.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-03-29 03:42am

Iceberg wrote:GWB fucked up big time. He managed to go past "feared" territory and become hated.

I predict a one-term presidency.

30% would have hated him no matter what. Most of the outside world would have hated him no matter what. To put it in perspective, even Clinton, who is the beloved President of the modern times, recieved less than 50% of the popular vote in 98. Getting 40% of the vote is a good thing in the current political climate in the US of A.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-03-29 03:44am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Iceberg wrote:GWB fucked up big time. He managed to go past "feared" territory and become hated.

I predict a one-term presidency.
Hated by who? About twenty percent of the populace, Mark, at best? Extreme Core Democrats, Greens, Pat Buchanan, LaRouche, and Harry Browne's merry band of ruinous nuts?

The Bush Presidency rests on two things - The economy and the Iraq War. And those two things are interconnected. We've see that pretty clearly already. If we win the war we won't be dipping below 8,000 again, at least, though we not be doing spectacularly like during the bubble - And we'll have long enough of that sort of performance before the election for the idea of Recovery with a capital R to permeate.

The combination of the two is going to result in whichever of those lamer candidates your party fields - only Gephardt and Lieberman have any really personality and/or genuine ideas, the others are either radicals with no chance or play-dough - and Gephardt is tainted by the midterms, while Lieberman remains too conservative, and too pro-war, considering that will be the devisive, even if it isn't the decisive, issue of the 2004 campaign, to appeal to the current Democrat Core.

The end result is that some John Playdough guy is going to run for the Democrats in 2004 and short of something happening to the USA that I know you don't want to happen to the USA, he will be crushed worse at the polls than Walter Mondale was by the Gipper.

Though you are more elequent, I am scare at how close we seem to be in our thinking.

I need help

I think

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-03-29 09:31am

Remember: Only half the population or so votes. If the percentage that doesn't like Bush gets mad enough to vote en masse, the effect of their vote increases - and we're talking about a president who only got 48% of the voting electorate in what was effectively a two-man race.

20% of the population hating Bush translates to roughly 40% in the electorate if that 20% decides they hate him enough to vote. If it goes up to 30%, that's enough to put somebody else into office, and don't think that victory in war is enough to - all by itself - put GWB over the top. If he wins the war but the economy dumps itself into the septic tank again next year, it's going to screw him as effectively as it did his dad.

I just get the distinct impression that we need a president with more political adroitness than a sea monkey on the international level. Bush is as subtle as a chainsaw and about as good at mending rather than creating rifts.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-03-29 10:23am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:What I find scary is that even at 4 to 5 centuries old, Machevelli is still very much up to date.

As I was reading The Prince, I kept thinking to myself, "You know, this would be FANTASTIC... if it were moral."

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-03-29 10:34am

Iceberg wrote:GWB fucked up big time. He managed to go past "feared" territory and become hated.

I predict a one-term presidency.

Logical left-wingers understand that it's not Bush we should hate, but American corporations. Bush (IMO) seems to be nothing more than a pawn guided by Big Business and Big Oil. Let's not forget his and Cheney's connections to Enron, and their backgrounds in Domestic oil. (And let's not forget that Bush's idea of "cracking down" on corporate crime was increasing maximum sentences from 5-10 years, while posession of 1 lbs. of marijuana gets you at LEAST 10 years.) And though it's entirely speculation, it could be argued that one of the big reasons Bush decided to go to war was to save a struggling economy. It's a fact that war boosts the economy, regardless of how much money we spend in the short-term to finance it. GWB's daddy understood that, and GWB understands it as well. And if that makes him a "hated" individual, then what does that make a leader like Sadaam, who has been accused of hoarding food and medical supplies from his starving people (those he hasn't already murdered)?

::Sighs:: This is a tangent, but I wish the UN had the power to vote leaders out of office in their country. That way we wouldn't have to go to war to get Sadaam out. But then, I suppose that's a little over-simplistic.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-03-29 11:30am

Queeb Salaron wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:What I find scary is that even at 4 to 5 centuries old, Machevelli is still very much up to date.
As I was reading The Prince, I kept thinking to myself, "You know, this would be FANTASTIC... if it were moral."

I keep saying that international politics and morality have absolutely nothing to do with each other...

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-03-29 11:45am

Iceberg wrote:
Queeb Salaron wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:What I find scary is that even at 4 to 5 centuries old, Machevelli is still very much up to date.
As I was reading The Prince, I kept thinking to myself, "You know, this would be FANTASTIC... if it were moral."
I keep saying that international politics and morality have absolutely nothing to do with each other...

Ah. So let's build domestic policy based on Social Darwinism.

[/sarcasm]

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-03-29 11:46am

EDIT: *foreign* policy.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-03-29 11:51am

To all! Here is your very own personal Machevelli personality test.. http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/09/13/machtest/ Take the test and post your score.. I got an 80 high mach baby.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-03-29 11:57am

46. Low Mach. And damned proud.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-03-29 12:08pm

68 High Mach. Oh joy...

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2003-03-29 02:24pm

87 -high Mach

My instincts warn me against posting such a high score. Oh well.