Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[ray245]

So nothing feels consequential?

[Vympel]

It's wierd. It's like they were so desperate to put the characters in a similar situation to ESB so they could hit/'subvert' all their story beats (plus some RoTJ thrown in) that they decided to completely ignore any continuity from the previous film.

In the very first line of the opening crawl we are told the Republic is just sort of.. gone now, so we can get back to evil monolithic superpower Empire hunting down plucky ragtag Rebels again. We are even referring to them as Rebels again now.

Why would you think otherwise? There's no evidence in Episode 7 to lead the audience to believe the New Republic could oppose the First Order after the destruction of Hosnian Prime.

Wasn't there a large, albeit largely demilitarised New Republic and a tiny rump pariah state Empire that only Leia and her shady paramilitary antifa friends took seriously? Why bother setting that up if you just wanted to sweep it all away offscreen?

Episode 8 begins immediately after Episode 7 and covers a period of a few days. Why would any of this be a factor in that timeline?

We have to have a big family rug-pull reveal moment, of course. But wouldnt it be clever if it turned out Rey's parents were literally just some randoms and her backstory was just entirely as presented? But then how do you explain all her implausible skills as demonstrated in the previous film? Surely they were planning to go somewhere with that?

Why would her parentage explain those things? She's strong in the Force, that's the explanation. Not everyone needs to be someone's father's cousin's former roommate's best friend. I thought it was a wonderful subversion of expectations.

Sure, let's do a bit like the Emperor's throne room from RoTJ. Wouldnt it be an awesome twist if Vader had actually killed the Emperor and taken his throne like he was planning? But we know fuck all about Snoke and what his deal is. He's just some puppet guy with evil force powers out of nowhere. Werent they ever planning to reveal his backstory and how he got involved with all these First Order types? Oh well, doesnt matter, he's dead now, I guess.

A movie is not a wookiepedia article. Are you watching it for the plot or are you watching it to just get a lore dump that's totally redundant and irrelevant to anything that's actually going on? What did we know about the Emperor's 'deal' in the original trilogy? Nothing. Literally nothing. It didn't matter.

Needless to say, I enjoyed the film a lot. In terms of flaws, it was somewhat overlong and could've used some editing in the Canto Bight segments, the Leia Poppins scene was goofy as fuck, but there's a shitload of stuff to love and it's easily the best movie since Disney acquired the franchise.

Cross-post:

Last Jedi builds on Force Awakens’ foundation with a thoughtful, often funny, awesome sci-fi action flick that continually subverted expectations. Easily the best SW movie to come out since Disney acquired the franchise.

My spoiler comments:

- I'm so surprised they killed Snoke off - and pleasantly so. Who is he and what does he want? Well - who cares? A story isn't a wikipedia article, like Rian Johnson said. Also, the way Kylo killed him was really clever.
- The fight with the praetorian guards was cool, the only thing that would've improved it would be more force powers from both Rey and Kylo.
- I was surprised they broke Luke's lightsaber. I guess Rey will have to make a new one.
- Captain Phasma was sort of wasted. Disappointing, but I liked the fight scene. I guess they decided the franchise simply had no room for her.
- General Hux was totally subverted as a semi-bufoonish 'cur', as Snoke said. It worked for me.
- It wasn't really clear what was going on with the Raddus' shields - Kylo seemed to get through them or somehow bypass them, but then it seemed like he couldn't and he had to turn back, and no futher fighter attack was attempted. We now know that shields are able to deal with turbolaser bolts more easily with distance, though.
- The shield graphic display for the Supremacy was interesting.
- How the hell did the Raddus skewer multiple ships? Were they all in its path? It wasn't really clear on one viewing, but it was an awesome looking shot.
- So much for Rey's parentage. She's nobody, just strong in the Force, like any number of random people in the galaxy.
- The Knights of Ren are only mentioned by implication - they're Luke's former students who joined him, and that is it. They'll definitely be seen in Episode IX.
- I'm disappointed we only ever saw Luke's green lightsaber in a flashback. With Luke dead, I guess we'll never know what happened to it.
- Speaking of lightsabers - what lightsaber did Ben use to defend himself from Luke's attack? Was it his own? I couldn't get a clear view. If so, what may have happened is that he made his kyber crystal bleed so hard he cracked it.
- The attack on Crait was great in that the Resistance was only saved by Luke and those clapped out ski-speeders achieved precisely nothing - inflicting not even a single kill. Surprisingly, Kylo should've listened to Hux and gone in regardless.
- The entire casino subplot was probably the least essential part of the movie, but still required to give Finn something to do. It should've been edited for time though.

[ray245]

I heard people are saying this film makes the new films into a 2 act saga, leaving very little thing for the 3rd/final act?

[Ender]

- I'm so surprised they killed Snoke off - and pleasantly so. Who is he and what does he want? Well - who cares? A story isn't a wikipedia article, like Rian Johnson said. Also, the way Kylo killed him was really clever.

There is a difference between "Character is a wikipedia article" and "we don't know the character's motivations or who he is".

Go look at RoTJ. We have the Emperor. We know next to nothing about him - he is definitely not a wikipedia article. But we are damn clear on who he is (ruler of the galaxy who turned anakin evil to take the throne) and what he wants (replace vader with luke). That he rules a galaxy spanning empire and has those resources is well established. We learn he is a force user, and get a taste for how powerful he is, in the indulgent and casual way he undoes Luke's cuffs.


Whereas here "who the fuck is this guy, how does he have all these ships?" was established in TFA and we get nothing.

[Vympel]

There is a difference between "Character is a wikipedia article" and "we don't know the character's motivations or who he is".

Go look at RoTJ. We have the Emperor. We know next to nothing about him - he is definitely not a wikipedia article. But we are damn clear on who he is (ruler of the galaxy who turned anakin evil to take the throne) and what he wants (replace vader with luke). That he rules a galaxy spanning empire and has those resources is well established. We learn he is a force user, and get a taste for how powerful he is, in the indulgent and casual way he undoes Luke's cuffs.

We know his motivation. He rules the First Order, he wants to destroy Skywalker to prevent the new Jedi rising. What more do we need than this? It's identical to what we have about the Emperor, in detail. We never knew who the Emperor was either. Apart from his role. Rules the Empire, rules the First Order. Whats the difference?

Whereas here "who the fuck is this guy, how does he have all these ships?" was established in TFA and we get nothing.

I don't think where he got the ships is at all relevant to the story. It's implicit in what we see of the First Order that they have a capable military industrial complex and significant manpower - why does it need to be justified?

[Mange]

I don't think where he got the ships is at all relevant to the story. It's implicit in what we see of the First Order that they have a capable military industrial complex and significant manpower - why does it need to be justified?

Because it's stupid. When I watched TFA (I haven't seen TLJ yet) I found it to be akin to Nazi escapees to Argentina using local scientists to build a hydrogen bomb, using the local resources to build a massive fleet and airforce and using local recruits to man them. Then plan on invading the United States that, despite intelligence and knowing there's a build-up, sits on its hands doing nothing. It breaks suspension of disbelief.

I'm sorry to see that it seems as if TFA's poor worldbuilding was carried over to TLJ.

[Ace Pace]

So nothing feels consequential?

If anything, the opposite. The amount of important things going on in this film is crazy. Just listing the changing of the guard is immense.

Vympel, I'm going to try to answer some of your comments.

- It wasn't really clear what was going on with the Raddus' shields - Kylo seemed to get through them or somehow bypass them, but then it seemed like he couldn't and he had to turn back, and no futher fighter attack was attempted. We now know that shields are able to deal with turbolaser bolts more easily with distance, though.

It seems, to continue the OT/PT assumption, that if you're close enough you can bypass the shields using small fighters.

- How the hell did the Raddus skewer multiple ships? Were they all in its path? It wasn't really clear on one viewing, but it was an awesome looking shot.

They weren't, I'll double check on the 2nd viewing but the fleet was spread out yet it mostly skewered. I'm not exactly sure what parts of the fleet remained and were capable of transporting the First Order to that planet.

- Speaking of lightsabers - what lightsaber did Ben use to defend himself from Luke's attack? Was it his own? I couldn't get a clear view. If so, what may have happened is that he made his kyber crystal bleed so hard he cracked it.

Yes, it wasn't a recognisable saber.

- The entire casino subplot was probably the least essential part of the movie, but still required to give Finn something to do. It should've been edited for time though.

Total agreement.

[Ace Pace]

I don't think where he got the ships is at all relevant to the story. It's implicit in what we see of the First Order that they have a capable military industrial complex and significant manpower - why does it need to be justified?

Because it's stupid. When I watched TFA (I haven't seen TLJ yet) I found it to be akin to Nazi escapees to Argentina using local scientists to build a hydrogen bomb, using the local resources to build a massive fleet and airforce and using local recruits to man them. Then plan on invading the United States that, despite intelligence and knowing there's a build-up, sits on its hands doing nothing. It breaks suspension of disbelief.

I'm sorry to see that it seems as if TFA's poor worldbuilding was carried over to TLJ.

And if it was the Nazis escaping to North Korea and waiting what seems to be 30 years? Because that's more akin to what happens. If you want to go all in on the universe, the galaxy is vast and it seems to be trivial to hide out in entire regions. The mere existence of the Unknown regions and lost planets, never mind obscure ones, shows it's definitely possible in the height of the PT, never mind a war ravaged galaxy.

[Meest]

Really disappointing. ADHD film making has taken over. No tension, no dread, problem to solution instantly, skip world building or characterization. Superweapon #281731, it's ok we'll send one or two to disable it after 30 seconds of deliberation and no explanation why they have this information. Say what you want about Empire but they did pace and tone and characterization way better, of all the movies to try to be different too that's not the one you skip. Take out leader = no trouble for First Order, but for rebellion that one last Jedi that can barely swing a blade is galaxy wide trouble.

For nerdy technical stuff, the lobbing turbolasers were so bad, we get it it's a "battleship", same for the the big target lumbering bombers. Luke is indeed the worst teacher, and add Yoda to the mix. Can track in hyperspace but can't jam communications. Wasn't that a plot point in Rogue One? These guys making personally calls no problem. Really minimalist and lazy continuity all over. Literally down to the last ship, hey hope wins, that's all that matters some kid with a broom will save the galaxy if we timejump in Ep 9. They really need a powerful villain or this turns into bad comic movie territory. Rey and Kylo having some trouble with praetorian guards and they are supposed to be enough to balance the war either way?

[DarthPooky]

Ok just saw it and in my opinion we have a contender for best Star Wars film ever.

[streetad]

Saying "a movie doesn't have to be a wikipedia article" just seems like a nicer way of saying "I'm going to force the story I want/have been instructed to tell, regardless of pre-established plot and characterisations".

As far as we were told, the galactic situation is as follows. There is a New Republic ruling over most of the galaxy. They have recently been demilitarising because everyone is tired of war. There is a small rump Empire known as the First Order, which is basically an isolationist, pariah state tucked away in the corner of the galaxy that nobody takes seriously.

Apart from Leia and her old rebel friends like Ackbar, that is, who suspect the First Order are up to something, and have been building up a kind of private paramilitary force known as the 'Resistance' to combat them.

The new film opens days after the First Order launched a murderous terrorist attack and destroyed the Republic's capital. They were then dealt a stunning defeat by the Resistance - their superweapon is lost, the galaxy at large is now aware of their intentions, and people everywhere are surely going to be pissed. They should be in the back foot but instead they now arbitrarily rule the galaxy with no explanation. This is a galaxy where every major corporation, every regional power, every criminal organisation has sizeable military forces - are we really supposed to believe that the entire galaxy is filled with secret Empire sympathisers just waiting for a moment like this to pull the black uniform out of the back of the wardrobe like that episode of the Simpsons where the Soviet Union came back at the push of a button?

The writers basically wanted to write a chase where an evil, unstoppable empire is pursuing some plucky rebels just like ESB so that's what they wrote, regardless of any context.

As for Rey, she is an ace pilot and lightsaber duellist, able to effortlessly use Force powers to achieve exactly the effect she wants with zero training or even really knowing what the Force is, immediately good at everything she tries whenever the plot demands. If she hasn't got some kind of hidden backstory to explain that, and she really is just some random abandoned in the desert as a child, then she actually IS just the irritating Mary Sue character that people were moaning about at the time.

Snoke? Well without the context of the prequels, the Emperor is just the Emperor. He leads the galaxy-spanning Empire with all its resources and has scary force powers. He wants to win Luke over to his side so he can have a new apprentice. That all makes sense and is all you need to know. If there is an evil empire, there has to be an evil emperor.

Snoke arrives with all the baggage of six previous films and fuck knows how much other material establishing how the Force, the jedi and the sith, and the wider galactic situation exist and interact with each other. He's been set up as a mysterious villian with mysterious motives. But it turns out that he's just basically a pointless cardboard cutout of the Emperor that the writers can kill off in our RoTJ 'homage' bit so they can 'subvert expectations'. He has no context - we literally don't know who he is.

[Mlenk]

I saw TFA exactly once, and that was on opening night in theaters. The Last Jedi, while not perfect, is miles beyond TFA in that I might go see it a few more times in theaters and maybe get the blu-ray when it comes out.

[Nephtys]

I was saying that Episode 8 will determine what they want with Star Wars. It's ok for EP7 to be simple and straightforward, a soft reboot--- because the last thing we need is badly done space politics ala Ep3 and unlikable characters. We need to set up a new cast. Got it.

EP8? Well. It was about subverting expectations.
Rey didn't get much training. Kylo didn't fight her, really. People died and people survived. The heroes plans failed pretty much completely. Thankfully there wasn't a death star and the thing on that one poster was just a gun barrel. Vietnamese women are in space.

Quite frankly, most of the criticisms are in that fanboy camp of 'It's stupid that they can hyperspace bypass shields' category. Who cares that the lady from my local Whole Foods was 2nd in command? Who cares that the turbo-lasers fire ballistic artillery shells? It's about feeling. And incidentally, nobody gives a shit about Snoke. That's the point, he doesn't matter. He's not special or important, and neither is Rey's family. What's important was for example, that Kylo Ren grew as a character. Rey realizes she doesn't need to uncover a past to understand what she wants for her future. Finn learns he doesn't need to be driven by merely smashing the first order. Poe learns he can't just go and be a hero and has to take a loss. Luke realizes his entire magical wizard heritage are a bunch of failure space cops, and that's fine.

The film had probably too many setpieces, and shouldn't have had the casino detour, that's the principal criticism I have, as it detracts from the flow of the story. But the rest was just fine. Fill in the dumb blanks yourself.

[ray245]

I was saying that Episode 8 will determine what they want with Star Wars. It's ok for EP7 to be simple and straightforward, a soft reboot--- because the last thing we need is badly done space politics ala Ep3 and unlikable characters. We need to set up a new cast. Got it.

EP8? Well. It was about subverting expectations.
Rey didn't get much training. Kylo didn't fight her, really. People died and people survived. The heroes plans failed pretty much completely. Thankfully there wasn't a death star and the thing on that one poster was just a gun barrel. Vietnamese women are in space.

Quite frankly, most of the criticisms are in that fanboy camp of 'It's stupid that they can hyperspace bypass shields' category. Who cares that the lady from my local Whole Foods was 2nd in command? Who cares that the turbo-lasers fire ballistic artillery shells? It's about feeling. And incidentally, nobody gives a shit about Snoke. That's the point, he doesn't matter. He's not special or important, and neither is Rey's family. What's important was for example, that Kylo Ren grew as a character. Rey realizes she doesn't need to uncover a past to understand what she wants for her future. Finn learns he doesn't need to be driven by merely smashing the first order. Poe learns he can't just go and be a hero and has to take a loss. Luke realizes his entire magical wizard heritage are a bunch of failure space cops, and that's fine.

The film had probably too many setpieces, and shouldn't have had the casino detour, that's the principal criticism I have, as it detracts from the flow of the story. But the rest was just fine. Fill in the dumb blanks yourself.

From a world-building perspective, it doesn't feel fun to root for anyone. So they bring everything back to order in the Galaxy? Well we know that peace will once again be destroyed in another 30 years.

Who cares if the good guys win? Who cares about their struggle? Because what this does is to unveil the curtains behind story-telling and world-building, and letting the audience know that nothing matters in the long run. What are the consequences of winning a civil war? Well it doesn't matter. What are the consequences of killing the last sith/dark sider? Doesn't matter, a new bad guy will magically pop out of nowhere in 30 years time.

The appeal of the Star Wars franchise is not about being invested in the individual movies, but being invested in the larger world. Why do you think Tolkien and LOTR has so many fans till today? Consistent world-building matters. Lucasfilm is basically run by those who don't care about world building, judging by the comments of Pablo.

[wautd]

I'll go see it in a few weeks (when the theaters are less filled). Being thoroughly dissapointed by The Force Awakens, I don't really have high hopes for this one

I saw TFA exactly once, and that was on opening night in theaters. The Last Jedi, while not perfect, is miles beyond TFA in that I might go see it a few more times in theaters and maybe get the blu-ray when it comes out.

I hope I'll feel the same. TFA was OK the first time I saw it, but quickly became my least favorite SW movie when I saw it for a second time. In contrast, I can see enjoying Rogue One every time I see it again

[Vympel]

Saying "a movie doesn't have to be a wikipedia article" just seems like a nicer way of saying "I'm going to force the story I want/have been instructed to tell, regardless of pre-established plot and characterisations".

As far as we were told, the galactic situation is as follows. There is a New Republic ruling over most of the galaxy. They have recently been demilitarising because everyone is tired of war. There is a small rump Empire known as the First Order, which is basically an isolationist, pariah state tucked away in the corner of the galaxy that nobody takes seriously.

Apart from Leia and her old rebel friends like Ackbar, that is, who suspect the First Order are up to something, and have been building up a kind of private paramilitary force known as the 'Resistance' to combat them.

The new film opens days after the First Order launched a murderous terrorist attack and destroyed the Republic's capital. They were then dealt a stunning defeat by the Resistance - their superweapon is lost, the galaxy at large is now aware of their intentions, and people everywhere are surely going to be pissed. They should be in the back foot but instead they now arbitrarily rule the galaxy with no explanation. This is a galaxy where every major corporation, every regional power, every criminal organisation has sizeable military forces - are we really supposed to believe that the entire galaxy is filled with secret Empire sympathisers just waiting for a moment like this to pull the black uniform out of the back of the wardrobe like that episode of the Simpsons where the Soviet Union came back at the push of a button?

The writers basically wanted to write a chase where an evil, unstoppable empire is pursuing some plucky rebels just like ESB so that's what they wrote, regardless of any context.

As for Rey, she is an ace pilot and lightsaber duellist, able to effortlessly use Force powers to achieve exactly the effect she wants with zero training or even really knowing what the Force is, immediately good at everything she tries whenever the plot demands. If she hasn't got some kind of hidden backstory to explain that, and she really is just some random abandoned in the desert as a child, then she actually IS just the irritating Mary Sue character that people were moaning about at the time.

Snoke? Well without the context of the prequels, the Emperor is just the Emperor. He leads the galaxy-spanning Empire with all its resources and has scary force powers. He wants to win Luke over to his side so he can have a new apprentice. That all makes sense and is all you need to know. If there is an evil empire, there has to be an evil emperor.

Snoke arrives with all the baggage of six previous films and fuck knows how much other material establishing how the Force, the jedi and the sith, and the wider galactic situation exist and interact with each other. He's been set up as a mysterious villian with mysterious motives. But it turns out that he's just basically a pointless cardboard cutout of the Emperor that the writers can kill off in our RoTJ 'homage' bit so they can 'subvert expectations'. He has no context - we literally don't know who he is.

It's telling that so much of what you complain of isn't in any of the films at all. It's all extraneous, basically expanded universe assumptions that have no actual place in the plot of any of the films. For example, you call the First Order 'a small rump' - a claim for which there is no evidence whatsoever in the films (nor is this claimed in the expanded material either).

You then claim they 'arbitrarily rule the galaxy', except that hasn't happened yet, because the movie literally takes place hours after the last one ended, and Rey worries the First Order will be in control of the major systems in "weeks" when speaking to Luke. This should tell you what you need to know about their actual capabilities and the state the galaxy actually is in, but instead you're complaining the film isn't following your head-narrative of what you think should have happened. But it didn't happen. The movie isn't wrong, your assumptions are wrong.

Hosnian Prime hasn't finished scattering yet, and you're complaining that there isn't some military rebellion in full swing yet.

As for Rey's abilities, the 'Mary Sue' argument is interminable and stupid, and I'm sorry but Rey having magical blood from space wizard royalty doesn't change anything. Snoke told us why Rey is powerful. Because she is the light rising to meet the dark. It's not complicated, and some bullshit hereditary tale isn't necessary to explain it. The Force doesn't belong to just the Skywalkers, or the Kenobis, or the Palpatines.

Snoke doesn't 'arrive' with the baggage of six films. He arrives in a 30 year lull in time. The only baggage is that which you're walking in with. We literally didn't know who the Emperor was either. We didn't know his actual name unless we read the novels.

Quite frankly, most of the criticisms are in that fanboy camp of 'It's stupid that they can hyperspace bypass shields' category. Who cares that the lady from my local Whole Foods was 2nd in command? Who cares that the turbo-lasers fire ballistic artillery shells? It's about feeling. And incidentally, nobody gives a shit about Snoke. That's the point, he doesn't matter. He's not special or important, and neither is Rey's family. What's important was for example, that Kylo Ren grew as a character. Rey realizes she doesn't need to uncover a past to understand what she wants for her future. Finn learns he doesn't need to be driven by merely smashing the first order. Poe learns he can't just go and be a hero and has to take a loss. Luke realizes his entire magical wizard heritage are a bunch of failure space cops, and that's fine.

Pretty much this. A lot of the criticisms are a bunch of nitpicky nonsense that can be explained away in a book for people who actually care about that stuff.

[ray245]

Saying "a movie doesn't have to be a wikipedia article" just seems like a nicer way of saying "I'm going to force the story I want/have been instructed to tell, regardless of pre-established plot and characterisations".

As far as we were told, the galactic situation is as follows. There is a New Republic ruling over most of the galaxy. They have recently been demilitarising because everyone is tired of war. There is a small rump Empire known as the First Order, which is basically an isolationist, pariah state tucked away in the corner of the galaxy that nobody takes seriously.

Apart from Leia and her old rebel friends like Ackbar, that is, who suspect the First Order are up to something, and have been building up a kind of private paramilitary force known as the 'Resistance' to combat them.

The new film opens days after the First Order launched a murderous terrorist attack and destroyed the Republic's capital. They were then dealt a stunning defeat by the Resistance - their superweapon is lost, the galaxy at large is now aware of their intentions, and people everywhere are surely going to be pissed. They should be in the back foot but instead they now arbitrarily rule the galaxy with no explanation. This is a galaxy where every major corporation, every regional power, every criminal organisation has sizeable military forces - are we really supposed to believe that the entire galaxy is filled with secret Empire sympathisers just waiting for a moment like this to pull the black uniform out of the back of the wardrobe like that episode of the Simpsons where the Soviet Union came back at the push of a button?

The writers basically wanted to write a chase where an evil, unstoppable empire is pursuing some plucky rebels just like ESB so that's what they wrote, regardless of any context.

As for Rey, she is an ace pilot and lightsaber duellist, able to effortlessly use Force powers to achieve exactly the effect she wants with zero training or even really knowing what the Force is, immediately good at everything she tries whenever the plot demands. If she hasn't got some kind of hidden backstory to explain that, and she really is just some random abandoned in the desert as a child, then she actually IS just the irritating Mary Sue character that people were moaning about at the time.

Snoke? Well without the context of the prequels, the Emperor is just the Emperor. He leads the galaxy-spanning Empire with all its resources and has scary force powers. He wants to win Luke over to his side so he can have a new apprentice. That all makes sense and is all you need to know. If there is an evil empire, there has to be an evil emperor.

Snoke arrives with all the baggage of six previous films and fuck knows how much other material establishing how the Force, the jedi and the sith, and the wider galactic situation exist and interact with each other. He's been set up as a mysterious villian with mysterious motives. But it turns out that he's just basically a pointless cardboard cutout of the Emperor that the writers can kill off in our RoTJ 'homage' bit so they can 'subvert expectations'. He has no context - we literally don't know who he is.

It's telling that so much of what you complain of isn't in any of the films at all. It's all extraneous, basically expanded universe assumptions that have no actual place in the plot of any of the films. For example, you call the First Order 'a small rump' - a claim for which there is no evidence whatsoever in the films (nor is this claimed in the expanded material either).

You then claim they 'arbitrarily rule the galaxy', except that hasn't happened yet, because the movie literally takes place hours after the last one ended, and Rey worries the First Order will be in control of the major systems in "weeks" when speaking to Luke. This should tell you what you need to know about their actual capabilities and the state the galaxy actually is in, but instead you're complaining the film isn't following your head-narrative of what you think should have happened. But it didn't happen. The movie isn't wrong, your assumptions are wrong.

Hosnian Prime hasn't finished scattering yet, and you're complaining that there isn't some military rebellion in full swing yet.

As for Rey's abilities, the 'Mary Sue' argument is interminable and stupid, and I'm sorry but Rey having magical blood from space wizard royalty doesn't change anything. Snoke told us why Rey is powerful. Because she is the light rising to meet the dark. It's not complicated, and some bullshit hereditary tale isn't necessary to explain it. The Force doesn't belong to just the Skywalkers, or the Kenobis, or the Palpatines.

Snoke doesn't 'arrive' with the baggage of six films. He arrives in a 30 year lull in time. The only baggage is that which you're walking in with. We literally didn't know who the Emperor was either. We didn't know his actual name unless we read the novels.

Quite frankly, most of the criticisms are in that fanboy camp of 'It's stupid that they can hyperspace bypass shields' category. Who cares that the lady from my local Whole Foods was 2nd in command? Who cares that the turbo-lasers fire ballistic artillery shells? It's about feeling. And incidentally, nobody gives a shit about Snoke. That's the point, he doesn't matter. He's not special or important, and neither is Rey's family. What's important was for example, that Kylo Ren grew as a character. Rey realizes she doesn't need to uncover a past to understand what she wants for her future. Finn learns he doesn't need to be driven by merely smashing the first order. Poe learns he can't just go and be a hero and has to take a loss. Luke realizes his entire magical wizard heritage are a bunch of failure space cops, and that's fine.

Pretty much this. A lot of the criticisms are a bunch of nitpicky nonsense that can be explained away in a book for people who actually care about that stuff.

Except you can't pretend the OT didn't come first. People are more invested in the galaxy far, far away more so than the new characters.

[Dartzap]

Although it is a cardinal sin of film making to expect people to get stuff from elsewhere.... , alot of this is partially resolved in the EU, in particular the latest Battlefront 2 campaign DLC. All cutscenes are available on YT.

For instance it explains where and how the FO gets its troops from in such numbers, and how it manages to get a decent number of fleets.

It's known as Operation Resurrection, which unlike the old EU, where it would probably have been a Palpy clone, refers to an long term strategy of rebuilding in the shadows. This mainly involves strip mining planets to death and large scale kidnapping by Smugglers etc.

Such fun!

[Anacronian]

Just saw it and I can't say I'm impressed.

Lots of humor, Some of it is funny and a lot of it isn', That's not so good.

Stuff happens, Yup a lot of stuff happens whether or not characters have any motivation to do stuff is a different discussion but stuff happens and that is good I guess.

Characters do stuff for the sole reason that the script wants them to do stuff like: Spoiler

WTF Rose you seemed nice and all but WTH would you have done if Luke did show from nowhere to save your bacon, would you just sit there and watch all your rebel friends die because you just had to interrupt Finn sacrifice??

that is not so good.

Effects range from Pretty good to subpar (this film littery have some of the worst animatronics seen in ANY SW film) that's bad.

[Ender]

We know his motivation. He rules the First Order, he wants to destroy Skywalker to prevent the new Jedi rising. What more do we need than this? It's identical to what we have about the Emperor, in detail. We never knew who the Emperor was either. Apart from his role. Rules the Empire, rules the First Order. Whats the difference?

The primary difference with RotJ is that in Jedi, that Anakin fell is all that matters, the how is not pertinent to the plot (his redemption).

How Kylo Ren fell is a pretty fucking major part of the story in TLJ. Like, it is the big twist of it. And that Snoke has "already turned his heart" goes to the core of it. We need to know what happened there - what made Ben someone who needed immediate execution before he did anything when even Vader was worthy of redemption. What was that corruption so much worse than the Emperor's malign influence on Anakin? Which means we need to know more about Snoke in general and his relationship to Been in particular.

And we don't know.

[ray245]

We know his motivation. He rules the First Order, he wants to destroy Skywalker to prevent the new Jedi rising. What more do we need than this? It's identical to what we have about the Emperor, in detail. We never knew who the Emperor was either. Apart from his role. Rules the Empire, rules the First Order. Whats the difference?

The primary difference with RotJ is that in Jedi, that Anakin fell is all that matters, the how is not pertinent to the plot (his redemption).

How Kylo Ren fell is a pretty fucking major part of the story in TLJ. Like, it is the big twist of it. And that Snoke has "already turned his heart" goes to the core of it. We need to know what happened there - what made Ben someone who needed immediate execution before he did anything when even Vader was worthy of redemption. What was that corruption so much worse than the Emperor's malign influence on Anakin? Which means we need to know more about Snoke in general and his relationship to Been in particular.

And we don't know.

Also, where was Snoke when the empire was in power. Why didn't he take over from Palpatine? If the questions that fans are asking makes a more interesting story than the actual movie we are getting, then there is a problem with the storyline.

[Nephtys]

Fill in the blanks yourself. This need for everything to be explained is what got us the Prequels.

Rey's powers are because fate decided that she just happens to be powerful, possibly (hinted at) a reaction of the force to balance a returning dark. It doesn't need to be explained by special parents, or a midichlorian count over 9000, which cheapens it.

Snoke is just another evil forceman that appears from time to time. Perhaps he was a minor cult in hiding during the empire, or one of Palp's backup pupils. Doesn't matter. He could lift rocks real good, but wise he was not. How much did we know about the Emperor in TESB? I mean, we just knew an empire had one. And then a hologram of a cloaked man that we didn't even know was magic, only that he commanded Vader directly.

What happened in the Galaxy? Extrapolate. Starkiller base is shown blowing up Hosnian, and dozens of cruisers in orbit in TFA. Presumably, that was enough to shift the balance and for the First Order to militarily start steamrolling the New Republic. If TLJ took place a few weeks after Starkiller Base was destroyed, that could make sense.

How could the fleet be tracked? Doesn't matter. Only that Finn and Rose figure out that it's possible based on Rose being a techie and Finn having insider info on what shit the First Order has.

Hyperspace Kamikaze not just mean combat are hyperspace missile shots? Doesn't matter. Maybe warships can easily block smaller hyperspace objects, just not kilometer-sized capital ships nobody's crazy enough to try this with. What matters is that Admiral Whole Foods takes action.

How does Snoke win over Kylo? Well actually, that's kinda hinted that he doesn't until Luke fucks up. Kylo has potential due to his powers. Jedi can read the future, but are inaccurate about it. Presumably, Snoke's been telepathically talking to Kylo using that power he clearly has, and Luke knew. Not wanting the risk of a new sith arising, he goes in and then realizes he fucked up and was wrong, but it's too late.

[Abacus]

- The First Order sucks at being a military force, as they do not know how to adequately utilize their military superiority over the Resistence. When the First Order fleet appears over the rebel base, they had enough ships and fighters present to deal them a blow. Instead they waited and brought in a dreadnought - which they gave no protective screen or cover for - and then did more nothing when said dreadnought (a "fleet killer") is under attack and subsequently destroyed.

- The only competent First Order officer dies in the first five minutes. I salute you Captain of the Dreadnought.

- Resistence bombers seem to operate as if OUTER SPACE is just atmosphere. The "bomb bay doors" open without any telltale sign that there is anything between the bomber's innards or outer space (like hangar bays on larger ships do with their magnetic shields).

- Said bomber's delivery method is horribly, horribly outdated - by about 500,000 years. Not to mention that that is NOT HOW PHYSICS IN OUTER SPACE WORKS.

- The First Order's hyperspace tracking device is ridiculous - not because of what it does (ie tracking ships in hyperspace) - but because it apparently can work no matter if the ship that has the device never encounters the ship it's tracking. Snoke's flagship was never present in the same space as the Resistence "fleet", therefore should not be able to track them without a literal tracking beacon. It makes zero sense except to satisfy plot convenience (aka bad writing).

- Why did the members of the Resistence know that Snoke's flagship was Snoke's flagship? Did he announce that he was now the ruler of the galaxy sometime? Was there a media press release? Something? Because otherwise they should just see *another* giant ship and go "fuck it's another FO uber-ship -- run!" Snoke's presence aboard it should be unknown.

- Still no explanation for what the "Knights of Ren" are. Were they Snoke's bodyguards? We don't know.

- Finn seems to have been the janitor on pretty much *every* First Order installation and vessel: the Starkiller, Snoke's flagship, [insert whatever plot requires].

- First Order sanitation crew apparently are privy to the type of information that the high command should have sole access to.

- Alien Resistence Pilot who could speak English last movie suddenly can't this movie.

- What exactly was Finn's plan after using an escape pod? They were in the middle of no-where and were being followed by the First Order fleet. As soon as he ejects, he's going to get picked off by a TIE Fighter or tractor beamed aboard a ship and captured. Stupid plan is stupid.

- Rey's parents should be important, she sees someone fly away in a nice-looking ship in TFA, they should matter; but they're being shrugged off here when they could be important for plot development and more importantly for her own character development.

- Whereas in older EU the Executor's shields were capable of fending off any damage from THREE star destroyers ramming into it via a screwed up hyperspace jump -- Snoke's big ol' flagship doesn't need shields or those it does have were built by the lowest bidder.

- Arms Dealer's ship was a chance to include some neat SW lore (sienar fleet systems, etc), but instead we got...nothing, even after the [plot convenient] thief-slicer guy purposefully turned on that computer to "find out who's ship it was."

- The minamalist streak is stronger with this movie than it was with TFA. As if *everyone* who was selling arms to either side were all living or visiting the same casino on a single planet (location unknown). No one made their money by selling *anything* else? No? Fuck you movie.

- WHO THE FUCK IS SNOKE ALREADY? Why is he so powerful in the Force? He fucking used Force powers to throw Hux around when he was likely on the other side of the galaxy -- not even on the same ship, as Vader was when he Force choked Admiral Ozzel to death aboard the Executor. Why was *he* not Emperor instead of Palpatine? His character seemed ominous and scary, but then we receive nothing in terms of who he is or how he came to be. He's an empty vase. Meant to be cast aside for plot convenience.

- The movie tries to explain away Rey's powers as if it were a Matrix movie. (Someone re-read "The Dark Comes Rising" before writing a script I'd say, too) Don't be the Matrix, Star Wars, be Star Wars. Only the Matrix can be the Matrix and even it isn't good at doing that at times.

- When the anti-tracking team manages to get onto Snoke's ship and then are captured, how is it that the ship thief guy knows what the Resistence is planning? As far as the tracking team knew, or heard on the comlink, was that the plan was to jump to lightspeed. Why then is the thief somehow knowledgeable about the Resistence's plan to sneak off on cloaked shuttles?

- "Anti-Cloak Sensors"....dafuq?

- The running battle made zero fucking sense. It's like no one has heard of a micro-hyperspace jump. Also, in space, with zero resistance, there should be no change in lethality of turbolaser shots - distance only matters in terms of accuracy; and apparently when it comes to hitting tiny transports the First Order gunners are fucking ace - one shotting them, one after another.

- Why do turbolaser shots arc in their trajectories? Turbolaser rounds have never before "arced" as if they were literal, physical artillery shells being acted upon by gravity....just...wtf.

- The Disney-branded tradition of giving NO FUCKING CONTEXT FOR ANYTHING HAPPENING IN THE GALAXY continues full steam ahead.

- We now have a love-square(?) or something? Rey and Finn, Finn and Rose, Ren and Rey, Poe and Rey, or maybe even Poe and BB-8 (let's be honest, he was a bit too happy to see BB-8 when they arrived via crash landing on Crait/Krayt).

- Leia's sudden Force powers enabling her to survive was...weird. She'd never been trained, etc, but she is a Skywalker...so...fuck it I guess. Still sad that they didn't give her an ending. Now we're going to have to wonder how the writers and director will handle her in the next movie and I swear if they try to do a CGI MOCAP thing again...ugh.

- General inconsistencies that show me that the writer's don't give a shit about the setting itself, in favor of telling a semi-cookie cutter story that they will jam into whatever shape they think best -- which causes plot holes, etc.

- Luke's character and his plot line in this movie were the best thing about it. Him becoming one with the Force was a nice gesture.

- Why does Rey magically have the Jedi texts aboard the Falcon? They were supposed to have been burned down as part of a final act of closure on the Jedi of Old...but apparently not. Sorry Master Yoda, you expended Force Ghost Energy for nothing.


I watched the movie twice. I enjoyed it the first time around, as I was watching purely for fun with zero expectations.

The second time...suspension of disbelief was far too hard to achieve. To paraphrase a friend of mine: "I feel as if the entire movie was not about the death of the Jedi Order, so much as it was the death of old tropes." He's far more optimistic than I am.

[ray245]

Fill in the blanks yourself. This need for everything to be explained is what got us the Prequels.

Somethings could be self-explanatory, somethings can't. I think there is a big problem with a simple yes/no approach towards world-building. You need to find the right balance for it.

Rey's powers are because fate decided that she just happens to be powerful, possibly (hinted at) a reaction of the force to balance a returning dark. It doesn't need to be explained by special parents, or a midichlorian count over 9000, which cheapens it.

I agree.

Snoke is just another evil forceman that appears from time to time. Perhaps he was a minor cult in hiding during the empire, or one of Palp's backup pupils. Doesn't matter. He could lift rocks real good, but wise he was not. How much did we know about the Emperor in TESB? I mean, we just knew an empire had one. And then a hologram of a cloaked man that we didn't even know was magic, only that he commanded Vader directly.

Why would he be a minor cult? Why would he command loyalty from the FO followers? It's important because the rise of Snoke is directly tied to why our protagonist failed to build a universe to prevent the rise of a new sith right under their eyes.

If that story is more interesting than the one we got, then the story has failed. A good story within a larger universe justify itself by telling the most interesting part of that world.

What happened in the Galaxy? Extrapolate. Starkiller base is shown blowing up Hosnian, and dozens of cruisers in orbit in TFA. Presumably, that was enough to shift the balance and for the First Order to militarily start steamrolling the New Republic. If TLJ took place a few weeks after Starkiller Base was destroyed, that could make sense.

Again, this is tied to the OT protagonist. We cared about the OT heroes because we wanted to see the fruits of their success. Seeing the fruits of their success is more fun than seeing the fruits of their failure.

How could the fleet be tracked? Doesn't matter. Only that Finn and Rose figure out that it's possible based on Rose being a techie and Finn having insider info on what shit the First Order has.

Not my issue because I don't need to care about every little world-building aspect. What I do care is the world-building elements that are important to our OT protagonists.

Hyperspace Kamikaze not just mean combat are hyperspace missile shots? Doesn't matter. Maybe warships can easily block smaller hyperspace objects, just not kilometer-sized capital ships nobody's crazy enough to try this with. What matters is that Admiral Whole Foods takes action.

Again, not my issue. Don't assume I care about this.

How does Snoke win over Kylo? Well actually, that's kinda hinted that he doesn't until Luke fucks up. Kylo has potential due to his powers. Jedi can read the future, but are inaccurate about it. Presumably, Snoke's been telepathically talking to Kylo using that power he clearly has, and Luke knew. Not wanting the risk of a new sith arising, he goes in and then realizes he fucked up and was wrong, but it's too late.

The issue is that story is more interesting than the one we got. Those events feels more dramatic than the current set of events. It feels like we got a few missing episodes between Ep 6 and 7 because of that. Some story needs adqueate build-up. It's why sometimes time-skip fails horribly for a sequel because it feels like the writers are too lazy to bother with making sure there is sufficent build-up.

Ep 7 and Ep 8 doesn't feel like Ep 7 or 8. They feel like Ep 10. That's the problem.

Lucas was clever when he rebranded ANH as Ep 4, because he gave people the impression that we are clearly seeing an incomplete story. That there are missing episodes.

[Abacus]

One thing I forgot to add: Mark Hamill is pure gold in this film. Luke's first minute of the film was the funniest thing I've seen in a Star Wars movie...possibly ever.

*throws lightsaber away*