Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[LadyTevar]

Ok... Let me go over this again...

THEY EXPLAINED THE HYPERSPACE TRACKING
Or did you tune out all that Finn and Rose were talking about after she stunned him?
I'll bet you did, because you thought "Oh, she's not important, this is just bullshit filler, I don't have to listen to it.
FOOLED YOU ASSHOLE!

Oh, and BTW, this was one of the Research Topics that Jyn Erso 'flipped through' while looking for the Death Star Plans in Rogue One. Yes, the Empire was researching it while building the Death Star, and only NOW did the First Order get it working.

[Me2005]

Ok... Let me go over this again...

THEY EXPLAINED THE HYPERSPACE TRACKING

Where did I say they didn't explain that? They explained it just fine; it just seemed that they explained it a little too quickly. Jumping straight to hyperspace tracking as the answer seems absurd when we SEE them send messages out (at first I thought it'd be a spy/turncoat) and we know Leia is related to the main badguy and that force sense is a thing (second thought). Their first thought is that the FO is using some (in their world) nigh-fictional technology.

In SHEILD or MiB, this would be ok, since everything they deal with is of the ridiculous. This is STAR WARS. Canonically, technology hasn't changed significantly for thousands of years.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Technobabble problem with technobabble solution? Is that where Star Wars is at now?

A turncoat would have made more sense, and the ship manufacturer selling the frequency code of a hidden beacon installed in each rebel ship would have fit more thematically with the side quest.

[Me2005]

A turncoat would have made more sense, and the ship manufacturer selling the frequency code of a hidden beacon installed in each rebel ship would have fit more thematically with the side quest.

Now there is a good way to wrap all the actual scenes up with a nice tidy bow.

[JI_Joe84]

Ok... Let me go over this again...

THEY EXPLAINED THE HYPERSPACE TRACKING

Where did I say they didn't explain that? They explained it just fine; it just seemed that they explained it a little too quickly. Jumping straight to hyperspace tracking as the answer seems absurd when we SEE them send messages out (at first I thought it'd be a spy/turncoat) and we know Leia is related to the main badguy and that force sense is a thing (second thought). Their first thought is that the FO is using some (in their world) nigh-fictional technology.

In SHEILD or MiB, this would be ok, since everything they deal with is of the ridiculous. This is STAR WARS. Canonically, technology hasn't changed significantly for thousands of years.

Tech changed in the clone wars, new ships were developed and there were many episodes where Skywalker or Obi wan went some where to get some new tech that will fix some deficiency in their military.
The death star was new tech, nothing like it had ever been built. If it was then people forgot about it which is not impossible given how their galaxy goes throu periods of massive decline and outright disaster very often.
Darth Bane for example.
They did not just launch directly into "zomg HYPERSPACE TRACKING!" It was Fin that suddenly realized it was hyperspace tracking tech from the empire's old science projects, maybe some thing Galen for got to mention while trying to stop the death star?
And Fin was in a medical tube because he tried to fight a trained force user with their preferred weapon, he is not bright. They were lucky he woke up to give them that tid bit, a bit convienent but we have to move the movie allong mkay?

[KraytKing]

But they can't take out the ship. We always see bombers having to be used for that. The First Order did not bring bombers to that fight. Maybe they don't have them due to fleet doctrine differences or whathaveyou, I don't know.

This is grasping at straws and you know it. Why in all hell would the FO have no bombers on any of the many, massive ships in their fleet? Even without bombers, five hundred starfighters doing as much damage as Kylo and his wingmen did would be more than enough to kill the entire Rebel fleet.

the best parts of the Empire and the best of the Republic and melding them into one. An Empire, but a good one.

There are no "best parts" of the Empire, it is a fucking empire. By definition they are evil as fuck, and only appear good if you are on the side of them. If you are part of the people's being held in imperium, life is at best, oppressive.


Christ, how old are you? Because setting aide the history and political economies of empire, the Galactic Empire s explicitly a fascist oppressive monarchy that in the canon is getting more reactionary and repressive as time goes on. It's a complete blundering clusterfuck of egos, insecurities, and sexual pathologies making idiotic decisions. What are the possible "best parts" of that? Which part of the explicit Space Nazis do you want to emulate?

Alright, perhaps I misspoke. I am sorry, and I mean that sincerely. What I meant was to take the structure of the Republic and wipe away the corruption. A meritocracy, advised jointly by the cold, emotionless wisdom of the Jedi and the fiery passion of the Sith.

That's a good point: What did we actually know of the Emperor in the OT?
TESB: He's a weird ghostly hologram, that Vader takes orders from directly, and wants Skywalker.
ROTJ: He seems to know what a 'jedi weapon' is, and knows what the force is. We don't know how he became Emperor, or whatnot aside that he is.

Sith is never mentioned as a word.

So really, Snoke has exactly as much information about him as Palps. He's a weirdo force user, who is trying to gather powerful force users to serve him, wants to destroy Skywalker, and is leader of an empire.

The difference is in setting. Empire and Jedi set up the world. As far as we knew, nothing else had ever happened in the galaxy. We have no data, nothing that the existence of the Emperor could contradict. With Snoke, we already know what has happened in the last few decades, and we know it doesn't involve him. In fact, much of our data specifically suggest he cannot exist. The Rule of Two (still canon, right?) means that he would have had extraordinary difficulty obtaining power as a Sith. The lengths Vader and the Emperor went to attempting to find other Force users make it hard for him to have gained power in other ways during their reign. And thirty years isn't really long enough for the galaxy to reset so he can start from scratch, pull what Palpatine did originally. So, we need them to tell us what happened.


Also, it still makes more sense that Kylo was pulling the same shit Vader did in both Jedi and Tarkin, tracking family members and tracking through hyperspace, both with the Force. The hyperspace tracking is just some BS they pulled out of a hat to fix a plot hole.

[JI_Joe84]

Also Fin thought the hyperspace tracking was only on snokes ship, which makes little sense.
Why only his ship? It shouldn't be on the front lines, its got the supreme leader on it. Their destroyers should have it. They are likely to be attacked by rebels hit and run tactics, knowing where they went would be a good thing to know.
Now that I say that some thing in TFA strikes me as odd.
On starkiller base the red headed general says " we tracked their reconasance bird to the Ilenium system. We have their base, we should strike now" did star killer base have a hyperspace tracker? We are never shown how the rebel ship is tracked, just told that it is.
I suppose we just assumed one of the fighter patrols spotted it and fallowed it, but that does not jive with what we know about FO naval doctrine or their fighters capabilities.
I suppose some one could have had a spark of brilliance and had some patrols up looking for trouble after firing the hyperspace canon, because should we expect some one to come snooping then?
But that seems out of character for them, way to competent.

[PhoenixKnig]

F.U.C.K. Last Jedi. Seriously, who wrote this fuck? That dick should be force choked and skewered with a lightsaber!!!
.

Fuck Rian Johnson. I hope you get mugged on the streets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell us how you really feel

[NecronLord]

Also Fin thought the hyperspace tracking was only on snokes ship, which makes little sense.
Why only his ship? It shouldn't be on the front lines, its got the supreme leader on it. Their destroyers should have it. They are likely to be attacked by rebels hit and run tactics, knowing where they went would be a good thing to know.

In fact they do say that the tracking would restart from another ship if it went down, they'd only have a brief window before that happened.

But as for why the Mega class.

Resolution. That thing is massive, that means it can span sensors across its surface like a Very Large Array and get much better resolution than others. That might also be why it has a very flat, wide shape, the better to do this exact thing.

Now that I say that some thing in TFA strikes me as odd.
On starkiller base the red headed general says " we tracked their reconasance bird to the Ilenium system. We have their base, we should strike now" did star killer base have a hyperspace tracker? We are never shown how the rebel ship is tracked, just told that it is.
I suppose we just assumed one of the fighter patrols spotted it and fallowed it, but that does not jive with what we know about FO naval doctrine or their fighters capabilities.
I suppose some one could have had a spark of brilliance and had some patrols up looking for trouble after firing the hyperspace canon, because should we expect some one to come snooping then?
But that seems out of character for them, way to competent.

There are other ways to track through hyperspace that could have been used on the reconnaissance ship in TFA.

The same technology is used in Episodes II and IV ("the homing beacon is secure aboard their ship?")

[NecronLord]

That's a good point: What did we actually know of the Emperor in the OT?
TESB: He's a weird ghostly hologram, that Vader takes orders from directly, and wants Skywalker.
ROTJ: He seems to know what a 'jedi weapon' is, and knows what the force is. We don't know how he became Emperor, or whatnot aside that he is.

Sith is never mentioned as a word.

So really, Snoke has exactly as much information about him as Palps. He's a weirdo force user, who is trying to gather powerful force users to serve him, wants to destroy Skywalker, and is leader of an empire.

To be fair.

Prologue

ANOTHER galaxy, another time.

The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that... it was the Republic.

Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.

Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.

But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.

From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples...

Of course, only when Empire came around did we know he was a master of the dark side, but we knew a little about his rise to power at least. We also knew a little about the Sith from the same book.

An exceptionally violent explosion shook the passage, drowning him out. A lung-searing miasma of carbonized component filled the air, obscuring everything.

Two meters tall. Bipedal. Flowing black robes trailing from the figure and a face forever masked by a functional if bizarre black metal breath screen-a Dark Lord of the Sith was an awesome, threatening shape as it strode through the corridors of the rebel ship.

Fear followed the footsteps of all the Dark Lords. The cloud of evil which clung tight about this particular one was intense enough to cause hardened Imperial troops to back away, menacing enough to set them muttering nervously among themselves. Once-resolute rebel crew members ceased resisting, broke and ran in panic at the sight of the black armor-armor which, though black as it was, was not nearly as dark as the thoughts drifting through the mind within.

Nothing about their details, of course. But the name was out there, and the fat that there were (or had been) more Sith Lords out there.

Snoke's details have been kept super-secret in a different way. We don't know if he's part of a tradition.

The difference is in setting. Empire and Jedi set up the world. As far as we knew, nothing else had ever happened in the galaxy. We have no data, nothing that the existence of the Emperor could contradict. With Snoke, we already know what has happened in the last few decades, and we know it doesn't involve him. In fact, much of our data specifically suggest he cannot exist. The Rule of Two (still canon, right?) means that he would have had extraordinary difficulty obtaining power as a Sith. The lengths Vader and the Emperor went to attempting to find other Force users make it hard for him to have gained power in other ways during their reign. And thirty years isn't really long enough for the galaxy to reset so he can start from scratch, pull what Palpatine did originally. So, we need them to tell us what happened.

That said, yeah he's mysterious but he doesn't require a special background.



There's no grounds to assume Snoke is anything but an upjumped inquisitor really. There's an unspecified number out there in Disney-canon materials.

It'd be nice to know that say, he was elected by the moffs or something and that he learned to use the force as an inquisitor. That'd be about all we would need to know and would be the same as we knew about Vader/Emperor Palpatine in the 70s.

[KraytKing]

If he's an Inquisitor, it really makes him feel less dangerous. I suppose we see him to be somewhat limited in his wisdom when he dies, but I just take issue with this whole idea of a second Emperor in such little time. Especially given said Emperor is not Vader, the one man directly trained to replace Palpatine.

[NecronLord]

Thirty years is Cpl. Hitler to Führer time. It is totally plausible to have someone rise to be Supreme Leader from no-one in thirty years.

[KraytKing]

Yes, but we're not talking about some fuck like Hux. Thirty years is plenty of time for some general to pick up the reins, but not nearly enough time for someone as singularly powerful as Palpatine to evolve. Palpatine had the advantage of thousands of years' Sith knowledge passed down from Plagueis. Snoke can't possibly be nearly as wise or powerful considering he was not a SIth, unless he's actually been around for centuries, Lost Tribe of the SIth-style. And for that, we need a backstory.

[NecronLord]

Why? Why's he so powerful in your estimation? In TFA Snoke is *terrified* of a confrontation with Luke Skywalker.

His response to the Resistance getting the map to Skywalker is to order Hux to blow up D'qar at once.

Edit: This is Snoke moments after being told that the Resistance have the map to Skywalker:

Look into his eye. That's fear.

[KraytKing]

My problem is that he ISN'T powerful. If the Rebellion could defeat the Empire in twenty years with Palpatine at the helm, why can't they pull down this little shit with his dregs of a military in thirty years? The only solution: he is really fucking smart.

[NecronLord]

Blotus the Hutt from Legends was probably the most successful Republic Chancellor ever, leading the Republic for two hundred seventy five consecutive years of peace and prosperity. He became so revered that his favourite seat in the senate house was kept vacant for four thousand years after his premiership. Doubtless he was an incredible leader and ruler, probably far better than Palpatine, whose sham empire lasted less than a tenth of Blotus' reign.

None of that required him to be strong in the force.

Nothing Snoke has done requires him to be more than an inquisitor. His political achievements (such as they are) are small, he has yet to contend with ruling the galaxy (and never will, now) he has simply exploited the fact that the New Republic's disarmament treaty was apparently enforced by goodwill alone to lead an arms buildup in the unknown regions. Anyone could do that. Krennic could do that.

[KraytKing]

Blotus had lived for six centuries prior to taking office in an established government well liked by the people, supported by the Jedi, and with no external enemies. Snoke may just be eighty years old and has taken control of a hated Empire with a disintegrating military and as many enemies as there are planets in the galaxy, including everyone with the Force. The two are very, very different.

[NecronLord]

Not really. The point there is that political acumen is not related to force power in any way (as witnessed by the fact that Leia was not able to run the galaxy!) Even Palpatine (who inherited a position with the same power as the aforementioned Hutt and even less external enemies) managed to have a legacy that didn't last beyond his own lifetime, except in the form of, well, see below.

The difficulty of ruling a culture is internal dissent. The First Order has literally no internal dissent. Finn is considered remarkable for his mental conditioning failing, and the First Order has nothing but slaves directly under its rule. The army is literally inculcated by machine with loyalty to him. That's supremely easy to run. All Snoke has to do is smack people about with the force (like Hux) if they try to question him. The prospect of confronting someone who can resist being smacked about in person with the force terrifies him.

We know that large parts of the Imperial Fleet just hyperspaced off into the unknown regions; that's how the First Order came to be powerful; the New Republic was literally too dumb to live, and the writers had no idea whatsoever how disarmament treaties work in the real world.

A child could come up with what Snoke did.

[AndroAsc]

- Is Snoke dead? HE CAN'T BE DEAD. I've seen a few theories that he's still alive, that his dead body was a projection and that Rey/Kylo are still linked, so Snoke should still be alive. You CANT continue the story with brat teenger Kylo Loser as the main villain. Why wasn't Snoke backstory explained?!! And if Snoke and Luke is dead, WHO THE FUCK DO WE HAVE LEFT? One loser teenager emo loser, and one untrained chick. Fuck this shit man!!!!
- Ditto for Rey. Isn't she Luke's daughter? Her parents are not some no-named junkers, it has to be a feint. If her parents are really nobody, i.e. not from the Solo/Skywalker/Kenobi lineage (which is all major theories), someone has to lose his/her head for this.

I mean, they go to some lengths to make it pretty clear that yes, Snoke is dead. They show his carcass cut in two numerous times, and do at least one close up (possibly more) on his dead-face with his tongue hanging out and his eyes glazed over. IMO they wouldn't do that if he weren't really dead.

Then how are Rey and Kylo linked at the end of the movie? Why could the body and corpse not be a force projection like Luke's, but only more powerful which Snoke was implied to be.

[NecronLord]

If I link my devices by bluetooth and you shoot me, they stay linked. He said he created a link. Not that it was through him.

[AndroAsc]

F.U.C.K. Last Jedi. Seriously, who wrote this fuck? That dick should be force choked and skewered with a lightsaber!!!

Random shit off the top of my head that pisses me off, will collect my thoughts at a later post:
- Ackbar died without saying "it's a trap": come on how hard is that to write that in the scene?

...Seriously? You're pissed off about that?

Yes, Ackbar deserved better than an off-screen "hey he's dead"

- Hyperspace tracking. Was never explained.

And if they did explain it, you'd be complaining about an infodump.

No I won't.

- The initial space battle. Who the fuck designed those bombers? They move SLOW LIKE FUCK. Seriously, who the fuck designed it? And how does ONE fucking bomber destroy AN ENTIRE dreadnaught? Do they not have shields?

That is why fighters exist, you shitgibbon. They are able to bypass shields and get close to the ship. Close enough to drop proton bombs. As for the bombers, I agree, the design was crap. I actually think that with their resource base completely fucked, the Resistance resorted to using dedicated ground attack bombers.

If that's the case, they could have name-dropped, "these bombers weren't meant for space battles".

- Superwomen Leia flies through space. SERIOUSLY WTF. Leia doesn't have Jedi training right? Can Jedi even fly through space????

Why not? They can move objects far bigger than themselves using the force, why not themselves? Hell, it doesn't even take that much because inertia is a thing.

Leia may not have had Jedi training, but there are plenty of non-jedi force traditions, she's strong in the force, and has had thirty years to develop her abilities in her own way.

Name another Jedi portrayed on screen, who can be hit by a blaster bolt (aka INJURED), and fly in vacuum.

- The chase scene. This is like the BIGGEST FUCKING DICKHOLE. Does the First Order not have more ships to surround the Mon Cal cruiser? Can you not sent a few ships to micro-jump ahead and trap them? Why the fuck can Mon Cal cruisers outrun everything the First Order have? Why did they need to pull back their fighters when most of the Mon Cal's fighters were blown up? And what's with the hyperspace manveuer that the end that blew up Snoke's flagship? Why didn't they do this with the other 3 smaller frigates?

They probably can't do a microjump that small. The First Order fleet isn't actually that large potentially, and is likely engaging in mop up actions against a decapitated new republic. They are, afterall, an imperial rump state. Why can't a mon cal cruiser outrun star destroyers?

Fighters probably had to pull back because without the capital ships being in effective range, they'd be unsupported against a mon cal and several frigates with formidable anti-fighter armament, and only capable of doing superficial damage.

Show me evidence that Mon Cal cruisers are faster than Star Destroyers. The only thing special about Mon Cal cruisers is their shields are above-average. They literally were at sublight speed for almost 24 hours, seriously stop making excuses.

Mon Cals do not have a lot of anti-fighter weaponry. With no fighter screens, it would be the time to press the attack.

- The entire side-trip to the casino really was pointless.

Except for, you know, character development and setting up the future of the universe.

Ok to each his own.

- The ending was really bad. The rebels are fucked. Where are their allies? Is everyone on the Falcon it? Are we expecting a 10-year time jump for episode 9? Seriously, WHO THE FUCK is left in the entire galaxy? Did Starkiller base wipe out the entire New Republic? It's like Washington DC got nuked and suddenly, all of American military power vanishes. Now replace Washington DC gets nuked with the capital worlds of New Republic gets blown up... so where are the other republic forces?? Unless you are telling me they cluster ALL their forces on the capital planets???????

They talked about this in TFA. The NR DID cluster most of it's fleet assets around five planets after largely demilitarizing post galactic civil war. The remainder is probably in the middle of being mopped up. This movie took place a few days after TFA. The NR fleet is in chaos and the heroes are not omniscient.

No they did not talk about this during TFA. Maybe in the novelization, but not on screen. I don't recall saying "OMG, we clustered our forces in those few planets and they got vaporized".

- Is Snoke dead? HE CAN'T BE DEAD. I've seen a few theories that he's still alive, that his dead body was a projection and that Rey/Kylo are still linked, so Snoke should still be alive. You CANT continue the story with brat teenger Kylo Loser as the main villain.

Why not?

Fuck you if you can't understand why.

Why wasn't Snoke backstory explained?!! And if Snoke and Luke is dead, WHO THE FUCK DO WE HAVE LEFT? One loser teenager emo loser, and one untrained chick. Fuck this shit man!!!!

Wow. I don't even know where to start with this... so I'll just let your rancidity speak for itself.

Yet, there is no denying that the level of Jedi skill/knowledge is at a minimum, probably the lowest point in SW lore.

- Ditto for Rey. Isn't she Luke's daughter? Her parents are not some no-named junkers, it has to be a feint. If her parents are really nobody, i.e. not from the Solo/Skywalker/Kenobi lineage (which is all major theories), someone has to lose his/her head for this.

What are you, some kind of toxic monarchist? Why cant some rando be strong in the force?

[/quote]

Because it's not consistent YOU FUCKTARD. Why can Rey sense Luke's death? Why does Rey react to Luke's lightsaber. ALL the evidence points to some connection between Rey and Luke.

[Vendetta]

Fuck you if you can't understand why.

I mean if this is the quality of your argument probably don't bother?

You fell for JJ's mystery boxes, accept it and move on. Snoke never meant anything, JJ was just giving you something to wank over for a couple of years that he didn't give a shit about when he wrote it and had no plans for at all.

Snoke was not as clever as he thought he was. The fact that the upper echelons of the First Order consist of people like Admiral Hux, clearly picked for ideological fervour over competence even from TFA, demonstrate that he is not good at this evil overlord thing.

[Shroom Man 777]

I loved The Last Jedi and the reactions of people like AndroAsc are a big part of why it's the greatest.

[NecronLord]

I mean if this is the quality of your argument probably don't bother?

You fell for JJ's mystery boxes, accept it and move on. Snoke never meant anything, JJ was just giving you something to wank over for a couple of years that he didn't give a shit about when he wrote it and had no plans for at all.

Snoke was not as clever as he thought he was. The fact that the upper echelons of the First Order consist of people like Admiral Hux, clearly picked for ideological fervour over competence even from TFA, demonstrate that he is not good at this evil overlord thing.

Just that. If Snoke was a competent leader he would have delegated to men with ability, and Janitorial-Trooper Hux would serve under the command of Admiral Canady. And Admiral Canady would have not lost that Dreadnought, easily sweeping all in his path.

Luckily, Snoke is a fascist strongman with delusions of ability. He even thinks he's being clever by having Hux, who's a demonstrated incompetent, in command, while losing good men under the little shitstain.

[KraytKing]

Not really. The point there is that political acumen is not related to force power in any way (as witnessed by the fact that Leia was not able to run the galaxy!) Even Palpatine (who inherited a position with the same power as the aforementioned Hutt and even less external enemies) managed to have a legacy that didn't last beyond his own lifetime, except in the form of, well, see below.

The difficulty of ruling a culture is internal dissent. The First Order has literally no internal dissent. Finn is considered remarkable for his mental conditioning failing, and the First Order has nothing but slaves directly under its rule. The army is literally inculcated by machine with loyalty to him. That's supremely easy to run. All Snoke has to do is smack people about with the force (like Hux) if they try to question him. The prospect of confronting someone who can resist being smacked about in person with the force terrifies him.

We know that large parts of the Imperial Fleet just hyperspaced off into the unknown regions; that's how the First Order came to be powerful; the New Republic was literally too dumb to live, and the writers had no idea whatsoever how disarmament treaties work in the real world.

A child could come up with what Snoke did.

Alright, perhaps I'm overestimating the writers. I'm going off of the idea that enemies of the Empire are not medically retarded. If that's the case, then yes, Snoke could just be an Inquisitor. But if they displayed any of the competence that brought down the Empire in a generation, then Snoke better be really fucking smart. And again, for that we need a backstory.