Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Elfdart wrote: 2017-12-29 01:47am I guess I'm the only one who liked the part where Finn and Rose saved the horse-elk creatures. I thought it was sweet in a 50s live action Disney sort of way.
I liked it, I just think the chase around the casino / streets as a whole should've been edited down.
Thanas wrote: 2017-12-28 09:43pm First of all, it would have been better if it had been cut by about 30 minutes. The casino scenes really do not serve any purpose. Even the ending scene with the children did not require the casino.
The casino scenes serve both Finn and Rose's arc. They're part of Finn becoming a Resistance fighter rather than just caring about saving his friends, and Rose becoming the kind of hero she idolises. It could've been tighter, though. Similarly, the ending scene with the children may not have required the casino but it certainly made more sense than it would have without it.
Likewise, Finn is useless for most of the plot. Right now his whole character seems like a waste of screentime which is really bad because the actor is good. Phasma was superfluous. I don't understand how you can make a movie that feels epic and is thrilling like Rogue One and then come up with this clunker.
Without Finn going off on Poe's stupid plan, none of the movie's climax would have happened. Phasma's just a boogey-woman for Finn to defeat.
Second - and this is a gripe I still have from TFA - the whole setup and backstory makes little sense. It devalues RotJ immensely to have every single character from it being an utter failure (Leia fails to stop the new order, Luke fails as a teacher, Han just fucks off and abandons his family, Ackbar does nothing and is not a tactician but a ship pilot in this movie, R2 becomes a closet decoration etc.) I could believe one or two failing, but all of them? And the idea of the New Republic being taken out by unprofessional wankers just points out that the writers have no grasp of history and do not know how states fall (hint: It is not by having incompetent enemies).
IMO, RotJ doesn't lose any 'value' because 34 years later things have gone to shit. If you're going to continue the franchise, then happy endings can't be permanent. Absent some sort of EU-type "and our heroes then proceed to keep saving the galaxy from sort-of-serious-I-guess threats and everything always pretty much turns out fine" film trilogy, that is.

I personally am not intersted in "and Scooby and the gang save the galaxy and everything is great" as a story. Luke being a broken man and coming back from that is far more interesting to me than "wise old grand master Luke Skywalker is so great and if he does stuff up its only in small ways".

As an aside - who gives a shit about what Admiral Ackbar is doing? He's a puppet with an iconic line and his big tactical move is concentrating all fire on a target. He can't carry a scene. Also, his voice actor died.
Third - Incompetent enemies just wreck this movie. Kylo Ren is still utterly unconvincing as a villain. It is a bad thing when I - who likes conflicted characters with angst - go "Yeah I could take that whiny bitch" and regularly shook my head at the villains. Who in the world ever felt terror at the approach of the Greater Imperial Clown Brigade of Hux and Ren? FFS, even the butchered version of Thrawn the Rebels show is presenting is ten times more threatening. I can handle plotholes (like how the fuck did Finn go from "I need a pilot" to "I can fly" within a few hours?") or bad pacing or bad villains but not all three at the same time. Yeah I get it this is supposed to be all about "subversion" etc. But ffs. At some point make them actually competent.
Did Finn ever fly anything? I mean sure, he flew a ski-speeder - but that's basically a glorified hovercraft.
Nine - Luke's death was very anticlimactic and served no purpose other than to kill him off. Maybe it will pay off in SW: IX but this was a pretty bad exit from the franchise. A hero, especially one with such a huge pop culture status like Luke deserves a better send off.
Of course his death had a purpose. He gave his life saving the Resistance from the First Order in a display of Force power we had never seen before, and thereby ignited a new legend (as we saw with the kids re-enacting it at the end of the film). And yes - Luke's got to be killed off. These are not his movies. How else can you justify him staying around and not just wtf-pwning everyone with his Force powers? Have Kylo kill him? I can imagine the howls of protest right now. Also, this obviously isn't an 'exit from the franchise'. Force ghost, anyone?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Elfdart wrote: 2017-12-29 01:47am I guess I'm the only one who liked the part where Finn and Rose saved the horse-elk creatures. I thought it was sweet in a 50s live action Disney sort of way.
I thought it was fun, if a bit long. I just hope that the whole "the only people who win wars are profiteers" line is continued in the next film somehow.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Just going from pure movie canon: Ackbar is in charge of literally the entire Rebel fleet. His best trait is that he is listens to his subordinates. When there is no reading on the shields they expected to be down, he calls for the fleet to break off their attack. When Lando suggests they close to point-blank range he initially protests because it's contrary to normal doctrine, but he acknowledges the point given that the DS2 will just wreck them otherwise, and orders them to commit to the brawl.

A puppet with an iconic line? Is this a Galactic rebellion or the Skywalker saga?

EDIT: To be clear, I'm okay with a 'war hero' dying off screen, even if it's Ackbar. It's war. Shit happens. Not everybody who dies in a war gets a five minute long heroic sacrifice sequence.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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GuppyShark wrote: 2017-12-29 02:41am Just going from pure movie canon: Ackbar is in charge of literally the entire Rebel fleet. His best trait is that he is listens to his subordinates. When there is no reading on the shields they expected to be down, he calls for the fleet to break off their attack.
Yeah, Lando gives that order, Ackbar follows along. I don't think it's some sort of amazing thing that the Admiral decided not to smash his fleet into a raised deflector shield.
When Lando suggests they close to point-blank range he initially protests because it's contrary to normal doctrine, but he acknowledges the point given that the DS2 will just wreck them otherwise, and orders them to commit to the brawl.
Again, that's Ackbar listening to Lando's ideas.

Why? Because Billy Dee Williams is a real person who can carry a scene, and Admiral Ackbar is supporting cast.
A puppet with an iconic line? Is this a Galactic rebellion or the Skywalker saga?
The Skywalker saga.

I'm not saying I don't think Admiral Ackbar is cool, but I'm certainly not going to give a shit that the new movies give him short shrift and then kill him off. He's not important to the story at all.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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The differences are pretty stark:
ROTJ: Ackbar listens to subordinates, gathers information, makes the right calls.
TNJ: Poe just get everyone killed because YOU DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE PLAN (that you were not across but somehow shared with a slicer you never met).
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Gandalf wrote: 2017-12-29 12:33am Maybe it's just that after a few decades of chasing mobile rebel fleets someone invested in better tracking tech, which only works on those bizarrely huge starships?
The tracking tech would have worked from any Star Destroyer, but only one ship can be doing the tracking at a time (presumably they interfere with each other). That's why the plan was to turn it off rather than destroy the ship doing the tracking, because it would take longer to notice and turn another tracker on.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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GuppyShark wrote: 2017-12-29 02:57am The differences are pretty stark:
ROTJ: Ackbar listens to subordinates, gathers information, makes the right calls.
TNJ: Poe just get everyone killed because YOU DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE PLAN (that you were not across but somehow shared with a slicer you never met).
And? Are you saying that Ackbar shoudn't have been killed off so we can watch the puppet bark correct orders? Or maybe Poe should just not make any mistakes, learn, grow or change?

(TESB is such a stupid movie. Dumb Luke, going to Bespin and getting his hand cut off. If only he had stayed behind and not done anything that Yoda didnt' tell him to do, it would be a far superior film)

Further, we explicitly see DJ listening in when Poe is telling Finn and Rose that they're loading the transports. That's all DJ needed to know to give it away.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Gandalf wrote: 2017-12-29 02:38am
Elfdart wrote: 2017-12-29 01:47am I guess I'm the only one who liked the part where Finn and Rose saved the horse-elk creatures. I thought it was sweet in a 50s live action Disney sort of way.
I thought it was fun, if a bit long. I just hope that the whole "the only people who win wars are profiteers" line is continued in the next film somehow.
I hate that whole subplot and every single line.

Somehow every single person in that huge Casino is an arms dealer, every one of them evil. It's just so childlish and naive.

And of course the Galactic Civil War was won by evil arms dealers, not the people of the Galaxy freed from an oppressive genocidal dictature... but the worst thing is that in the context of the sequel trilogy it's probably true, it was a pointless struggle that achieved nothing.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Vympel wrote: 2017-12-29 04:10amAnd? Are you saying that Ackbar shoudn't have been killed off so we can watch the puppet bark correct orders? Or maybe Poe should just not make any mistakes, learn, grow or change?
No, the idea that Ackbar was an empty puppet pre-Disney is what I'm railing against.
Vympel wrote: Further, we explicitly see DJ listening in when Poe is telling Finn and Rose that they're loading the transports. That's all DJ needed to know to give it away.
Doesn't actually refute my point, but only cements it further.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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eMeM wrote: 2017-12-29 04:39amI hate that whole subplot and every single line.

Somehow every single person in that huge Casino is an arms dealer, every one of them evil. It's just so childlish and naive.

And of course the Galactic Civil War was won by evil arms dealers, not the people of the Galaxy freed from an oppressive genocidal dictature... but the worst thing is that in the context of the sequel trilogy it's probably true, it was a pointless struggle that achieved nothing.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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GuppyShark wrote: 2017-12-29 04:44am
Vympel wrote: 2017-12-29 04:10amAnd? Are you saying that Ackbar shoudn't have been killed off so we can watch the puppet bark correct orders? Or maybe Poe should just not make any mistakes, learn, grow or change?
No, the idea that Ackbar was an empty puppet pre-Disney is what I'm railing against.
As far as RotJ is concerned he's literally just a realistic souding board for all of Lando's good ideas (since Lando can't credibly be the admiral). Yes he's a fun part of RotJ, but story doesn't owe him anything.
Doesn't actually refute my point, but only cements it further.
I was addressing your complaint that Poe somehow shared a plan he was not across.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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After waiting one more day and collecting my thoughts I would actually rate this movie worse than TPM and ROTS. It is better than AotC though.

Vympel wrote: 2017-12-29 02:23am The casino scenes serve both Finn and Rose's arc. They're part of Finn becoming a Resistance fighter rather than just caring about saving his friends, and Rose becoming the kind of hero she idolises. It could've been tighter, though. Similarly, the ending scene with the children may not have required the casino but it certainly made more sense than it would have without it.
All we need is some children having a hard time. We don't need an explanation for it. How did it make more sense?
IMO, RotJ doesn't lose any 'value' because 34 years later things have gone to shit. If you're going to continue the franchise, then happy endings can't be permanent. Absent some sort of EU-type "and our heroes then proceed to keep saving the galaxy from sort-of-serious-I-guess threats and everything always pretty much turns out fine" film trilogy, that is.
Like I said, one or two of them failing would be ok. But the entirety of them being fucking bad at their jobs is just horrible writing. It is as realistic as everything being fixed forever.
I personally am not intersted in "and Scooby and the gang save the galaxy and everything is great" as a story. Luke being a broken man and coming back from that is far more interesting to me than "wise old grand master Luke Skywalker is so great and if he does stuff up its only in small ways".
Well, that is your personal preference. From a story perspective however what bothers me is that they essentially ripped his story from him and gave it to Rey. I also do not like how his story makes little sense even in the context of TFA (why does he leave a map?) and in the context of the OT. In fact his defining characteristic from the OT is that he always trusts in his friends and is always there for them. It makes no sense that he would just abandon friends and family. Take some time off ok. But this is just useless and goes against everything established about his character. I don't know if it is entirely character assassination but it comes quite close to it at least.
Of course his death had a purpose. He gave his life saving the Resistance from the First Order in a display of Force power we had never seen before, and thereby ignited a new legend (as we saw with the kids re-enacting it at the end of the film). And yes - Luke's got to be killed off. These are not his movies. How else can you justify him staying around and not just wtf-pwning everyone with his Force powers?
The same way competent writers in the EU (see Zahn) did it. Zahn managed to make Luke not overshadow everybody else even when he was at the height of his power (see the HoT duology). And he did so even without using ysalamiri.
Have Kylo kill him?
Honestly I would have preferred Luke training Rey, then sacrificing his live to help her escape a massive assault from the knights of ren etc. Probably would have been a better movie than 1-hour chase scene in space that goes nowhere too.
I can imagine the howls of protest right now. Also, this obviously isn't an 'exit from the franchise'. Force ghost, anyone?
For all intents and purposes of his storytelling arc it is. They ripped his arc from him and gave it to Rey.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Thanas wrote: 2017-12-29 07:51am All we need is some children having a hard time. We don't need an explanation for it. How did it make more sense?
Because we would have never seen those children before. We'd be sitting there in the cinema going "who are these kidsnow?"
Well, that is your personal preference. From a story perspective however what bothers me is that they essentially ripped his story from him and gave it to Rey.
Well he's supporting cast, not the protagonist. It's right that Rey should get the story.
I also do not like how his story makes little sense even in the context of TFA (why does he leave a map?) and in the context of the OT. In fact his defining characteristic from the OT is that he always trusts in his friends and is always there for them. It makes no sense that he would just abandon friends and family. Take some time off ok. But this is just useless and goes against everything established about his character. I don't know if it is entirely character assassination but it comes quite close to it at least.
I've seen people assume that Luke 'left' a map a few times now, but it's incorrect. The map is to the first Jedi temple - where Luke is rumored to be. Luke didn't make that map, Max von Sydow's character and friends put it together*. It was assembled on the basis of rumors and what not that that's where Luke went (as Han told Rey and Finn). No one in TFA ever says that Luke left a map.

*Note also Kylo Ren saying he needed the 'last piece' to find Luke because they had already assembled the rest from the old Imperial archives.

As to the point of character assassination - well I get it, but shit happens and people change in 30 years. It's not terribly uplifting, but its not unrealistic.
The same way competent writers in the EU (see Zahn) did it. Zahn managed to make Luke not overshadow everybody else even when he was at the height of his power (see the HoT duology). And he did so even without using ysalamiri.
That would never work for this film - in those books Luke is unquestionably a protagonist. Luke is not the protagonist of these films, keeping him around and active would just turn him into the Poochie of the trilogy, i.e. if Luke isn't around, everyone would simply be constantly wondering where he was and why he wasn't fixing everything. You could go back and make that movie, but frankly you'd need to do in the 1990s, with him as main cast. No one is writing a movie where Luke is stealing the story oxygen from the new cast in the late 2010s - the commerical considerations (i.e. the need to introduce a new generation of fans to new characters to keep the whole thing going) are hard to fight.
Honestly I would have preferred Luke training Rey, then sacrificing his live to help her escape a massive assault from the knights of ren etc. Probably would have been a better movie than 1-hour chase scene in space that goes nowhere too.
Sure, but how do you explain why he fucked off for a decade and refused to help (Luke closing himself off the Force also solves the problem of him sitting around while the Republic capital was annihilated)? The Knights of Ren attacking Ach-To does sound kind of awesome though.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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eMeM wrote: 2017-12-29 04:39amI hate that whole subplot and every single line.

Somehow every single person in that huge Casino is an arms dealer, every one of them evil. It's just so childlish and naive.
I thought the "arms dealer" statement was Rose's own perspective on the place, and that it was supposed to be a planet with every variety of rich arsehole using their wealth to have consequence free lives under the First Order.
And of course the Galactic Civil War was won by evil arms dealers, not the people of the Galaxy freed from an oppressive genocidal dictature... but the worst thing is that in the context of the sequel trilogy it's probably true, it was a pointless struggle that achieved nothing.
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As a struggle it got rid of an Emperor and his centralised bureaucratic killing machinery (yay!), but evidently the new Republic just couldn't make it work in the subsequent fallout. Maybe everyone overreached and tried to bring back the old Republic on day one as opposed to some sort of long term rehabilitative program. It's not like that idea is without precedent.
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Re: FUCK TLJ, Rian Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy, and other responsible

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Gandalf wrote: 2017-12-28 08:32pmWait, what did it really reject from TFA?
Generally look for the most polarizing differences between the two movies, and you'll find them. The big one is the whole thing with Rey's parents which, even if you agree with the decision, causes a lot of discrepancies between the two movies. They spent a bunch of time in TFA foreshadowing and teasing some connection between her and the Skywalker clan, which the big reveal in TLJ renders meaningless, pointless, and/or unnecessary padding.

I actually like the decision when taken in isolation, since heroes from humble origins is a common trope, but the decision to apply it to Rey after spending an entire movie teasing the opposite is an explicit rejection of TFA.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Thanas does bring up something I had been hoping for after TFA: Master Luke going up against ALL of his traitorous students that later became, supposedly, the Knights of Ren. There was zero mention of them at all in this.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Bob the Gunslinger wrote: 2017-12-28 12:06pm
fractalsponge1 wrote: 2017-12-28 11:59am
eMeM wrote: 2017-12-28 07:05am I hate that every criticism of this movie is met with either "u don't like because your theories got destroyed", or "To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand the themes of The Last Jedi...".

A LOT of people dislike this movie because it's a boring, derivative string of plotholes, scenes lifted straigth from the OT, plotholes, and countless cheap bait and switches, sprinkled with plotholes, and ungodly ammount out of place humour. That it shits all over the OT is a minor point because TFA has already done that, TLJ just doesn't try to fix anything.
This. A lot. I don't know why some people are so defensive about this movie. I liked a lot of it but I hated a lot of it, even before we get to things about the EU or what you thought the OT characters should've done or whatever. It can be commercially successful, fun even, despite being flawed, but goddamn people are being dumb about it.

Half the commentary I've seen about it seems to boil down to Person 1: "I didn't like it." Random other person: "No you didn't. Because X"
[...]
In many ways, the film works beautifully, but in many ways it is also a terrible mess. Considering the disdain with which it treats the science fantasy rules of the setting, I feel like the film might stand well on its own but is poison for the franchise as a whole.
You hit the nail on the head on want I have to say about TLJ after seeing it a second time around.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PhoenixKnig »

Shroom Man 777 wrote: 2017-12-28 02:05pm
Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-12-28 06:35am
Shroom Man 777 wrote: 2017-12-28 06:01am Then again their Star Wars fans, they'd miss the point even if it went down their vent shafts.
:roll: yeah glad we're not the nerds and star wars fans here on stardestoyer.net, that would be terrible.
:lol: :P

Assume they are spherical masses of iron, if you will.
eMeM wrote: 2017-12-28 07:05amI hate that every criticism of this movie is met with either "u don't like because your theories got destroyed", or "To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand the themes of The Last Jedi...".
IMO a lot of the dislike of the movie comes from nerds who are kinda stuffy and rigid. I just think it rubbed them off the wrong way due to their possessiveness, which the movie blatantly tried to address.

I mean, we're a board based on people who've spent godless amounts of hours arguing that a Star Destroyer can paste the Enterprise because of footage of pew-pew asteroids. Lets be real here, the nerd community's not the most level-headed of groups.

CaoCao wrote: 2017-12-28 11:16am Oh, it's a great story that only disciples of Einstein can get. It's amazing how:

- They need to send a message asking for allies to help and need to get to an old installation after over 18 hours of crawling...but they can speed dial they favourite cantina owner in a jizz.
Broad transmissions across the galaxy sent to anyone listening might not work the same as point to point personal comms between linked transmitters and receivers? It's not just speed dialing Maz, Poe also was in constant communications with FInn...
IMO it's "everyone can someone else for point to point , but few have a broadcast towers in their yards for mass sig transit
[/quote]
[/quote]
- Luke dies...but the projected dice he gave Leia (and she left behind) remain in place so that he can troll his nephew.
It's all mystic and shit. Why would physical death prevent him from projecting images? It's not as if the previous movies had Jedi masters create images after they passed on... :lol:
I wondering about that but I'll take that answer
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Vympel wrote: 2017-12-29 08:21am Because we would have never seen those children before. We'd be sitting there in the cinema going "who are these kidsnow?"
I dunno, worked in plenty of other movies before where they show people - without knowing anything about them - being inspired by the actions of a hero.
Well he's supporting cast, not the protagonist. It's right that Rey should get the story.
It is however not quite right that she gets Luke's story. This to me speaks of a lack of creative writing. This random character who has had a saber for a few days, had a few days of training and some books is having his arc. Which is pretty ridiculous on its own, but my main gripe is this:

They don't have to tear the old characters down to make the new ones great unless the new ones are so bad that they cannot stand on their own in the presence of legends. Which again speaks to writing.

I think we will luke see training her. But for how long? Another two lessons? Or is he going to be hanging around for years to train her so she can fully tap into her mary-sueish wank potential? Then why kill him in the first place.

Honestly it seems like they just want to wipe the board clean of the OT people so the new ones can do everything instead of building off of it. Which begs the question of why use the OT characters in the first place? Well, the out of universe answer is of course that they wanted to do a cash grab. And the in-universe reason? I cannot find one that necessitates this diminishing of well-loved heroes.
As to the point of character assassination - well I get it, but shit happens and people change in 30 years. It's not terribly uplifting, but its not unrealistic.
If it goes against everything of an established character then there needs to be a better explanation than "people change". People do not change their core characteristics for no reason.
That would never work for this film - in those books Luke is unquestionably a protagonist. Luke is not the protagonist of these films, keeping him around and active would just turn him into the Poochie of the trilogy, i.e. if Luke isn't around, everyone would simply be constantly wondering where he was and why he wasn't fixing everything. You could go back and make that movie, but frankly you'd need to do in the 1990s, with him as main cast.
If shoestring-budget TV shows regularly manage to do so in this day of age I see no reason a billion dollar movie cannot do the same thing. It is just a lack of creativity.

I also disagree that Luke is not in the main cast of this movie. Mark Hamill is credited before any of the new heroes and certainly treated as a main character by all the media.
No one is writing a movie where Luke is stealing the story oxygen from the new cast in the late 2010s - the commerical considerations (i.e. the need to introduce a new generation of fans to new characters to keep the whole thing going) are hard to fight.
And yet he gets plenty of screentime here and his parts are widely considered the strongest of the movie.

Do you agree or not agree that this version of Luke is a realistic one? This is a difference of opinion. I vehemently disagree on that, mainly because while I can accept one or two of the OT heroes utterly failing at everything after Endor, I cannot accept all of them failing at the same time. That is completely unrealistic.
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Re: FUCK TLJ, Rian Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy, and other responsible

Post by Gandalf »

Civil War Man wrote: 2017-12-29 09:49amGenerally look for the most polarizing differences between the two movies, and you'll find them. The big one is the whole thing with Rey's parents which, even if you agree with the decision, causes a lot of discrepancies between the two movies. They spent a bunch of time in TFA foreshadowing and teasing some connection between her and the Skywalker clan, which the big reveal in TLJ renders meaningless, pointless, and/or unnecessary padding.

I actually like the decision when taken in isolation, since heroes from humble origins is a common trope, but the decision to apply it to Rey after spending an entire movie teasing the opposite is an explicit rejection of TFA.
Yeah, to be honest I never took that stuff to mean Rey was a Skywalker, so that's probably affecting my viewpoints somewhat.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vendetta »

If you thought there was a plan for anything in TFA you were not paying attention to seven years of evidence of how JJ Abrams treats mysteries and questions on Lost.

For JJ the mystery is the point, the answer is irrelevant and he isn't even thinking about what it might be. He's just crafting a mystery box that people on the internet can talk about for as long as they want because it's sufficiently vague that no interpretation is ever wrong.
Thanas wrote:If it goes against everything of an established character then there needs to be a better explanation than "people change". People do not change their core characteristics for no reason.
One of the most established parts of Luke Skywalker's* character is making ill advised decisions or dallying with the Dark Side out of fear. When he goes into the cave on Dagobah his fear makes him lash out at the image of the Dark Side and he sees himself in it, he leaves Dagobah out of fear for his friends and walks into a trap and they have to save him, and then in the throne room at the very end of his arc he gives in to fear for his sister and taps into the power of the Dark Side to beat his father, and only manages to pull back at the last moment after he inflicts a wound that mirrors the one he suffered the last time he made that mistake.

And because that happens right at the end of his arc you can't argue that he's learned his lesson and wouldn't do it again. The end of a character's arc is when you show them not making the mistake because the lessons throughout the arc taught them not to.



*Runs in the family, too. Anakin's fall was also driven by fear of what might happen.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Thanas »

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-29 11:40am One of the most established parts of Luke Skywalker's* character is making ill advised decisions or dallying with the Dark Side out of fear. When he goes into the cave on Dagobah his fear makes him lash out at the image of the Dark Side and he sees himself in it, he leaves Dagobah out of fear for his friends and walks into a trap and they have to save him, and then in the throne room at the very end of his arc he gives in to fear for his sister and taps into the power of the Dark Side to beat his father, and only manages to pull back at the last moment after he inflicts a wound that mirrors the one he suffered the last time he made that mistake.

And it also ties in with his attempts to redeem people who fell to the dark side, both in canon and in EU. And yet here he goes "nope, imma fuck off to a planet for a decade or so and wait to die there."
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by CaoCao »

Vympel wrote: 2017-12-28 11:05pm
CaoCao wrote: 2017-12-28 10:13pm There was only one Jedi Academy. You may need to rewatch TFA scene.
I'm not sure what this means. We see Kylo and what are presumably the Knights of Ren standing in the middle of a rainy, muddy field. Why are you assuming this has anything to do with Luke's Jedi academy?

We see Luke presumably looking at his Jedi academy burning immediately prior, but the rain starts to fall on R2's dome - and the vision changes - at the end of this particular vision. There is no reason to assume they are connected in place and time, anymore than it connected to Rey standing in the Starkiller Base forest she hadn't even arrived in yet.
Abrams said that the vision, at least that part, was of the past. The past of the Force (Kylo, the Knights and Luke) and her past (when her parents abandon her).

Now, if you want to believe it's about a cosplay party Ben and friends went to...well...I won't say anything.
Vympel wrote: 2017-12-28 11:05pm
Yoda aknowledges what Luke said about the Jedi Order and went forward to do the deed. It wasn't supposed to be literal, or the burning tree has 0 meaning.
What wasn't meant to be literal?
That she had the knowledge because she had the books. It is clearly implied that she had everything she needed inside of her (the connection to the Force and her good personality). That was a particular moment of good writing.

Then someone decided to dumb it down and make a more literal passing of the baton (screwing the previous scene).
Vympel wrote: 2017-12-28 11:05pm
Nothing points to that on the Jedi issue.
Yes it does. Luke wanted to the Jedi to end and wanted to be the last Jedi. Then he changed his mind.
You're pulling this out of...nowhere. He explained in detail why he thought the Jedi must end, never why they should continue nor did he recognize a mistake in what he said. He "returns" to save his sister, risking his death, in a close to in-character moment.
Vympel wrote: 2017-12-28 11:05pm
He didn't return, he was never there. Which means he never returned anything to Leia.
The point of Luke's return is not to give a souvenir to Leia.
It's closure, a good bye. Something he could have done in person and would have mattered. Making it an astral projection (force ghosts are translucent and blueish), cheapens the moment.
Vympel wrote: 2017-12-28 11:05pm
You realize everything went back to the Rebellion vs Empire scaled down, right?
So what? That's got nothing and less to do with theme.

As to "but it went back to Rebellion vs Empire" as if this is somehow a problem, I couldn't give less of a toss. It's not like Rian Johnson had been given a choice on this aspect, nor is "exactly like the Rebellion but larger and its called the New Republic" some sort of gold mine of dramatic unique material.
The real theme was, to let go of the past, and they dumbed it to be pretty obvious. Even in interviews when facing criticism.

And that it's Rebellion vs Empire in a wacky scale (bigger but smaller). Point is, noone learned from any past mistake if you're rehashing the OT, and everything happens in almost the same way.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FedRebel »

"Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" - Lord Dark Helmet, 'Spaceballs'

1: Holdo can't communicate the plan to one of her senior officers, demotion or not Poe is the ranking Starfighter Corps officer on board it is pertinent for him to be read in as to ensure the cooperation of the pilot corps on board

2:That lack of communication leads Poe to formulate his own plan and to likewise leave Holdo out of the loop, Finn and Rose botch the plan by landing on a beach instead of a starport...which gets them pinched by the Espos.

3: Finn and Rose get the 'wrong' codebreaker, consciously settling for an unvetted criminal, whom sells not only them out but the Resistance at large by enabling the First Order to track the Resistance transports and destroy them.

4: Rose whom is clearly borderline psychotic....prevents Finn from making a suicide run which would have spared the base

And all this would have been prevented if Holdo had just briefed Poe in the beginning.

That critical act of non-communication has handed the galaxy over to The Resurgent Galactic Empire on a golden platter.

*The Galactic Sectors went Full France and ceded authority to the First Order
*the Resistance has no warship, no army, no starfighers, no bases, no allies....just a dozen people crammed into a YT-1300, a Jedi and a Wookie

The resistance has proven the adage..."poor communication kills"

Ep9 is going to start in a very, very, very dark place...especially as we all know the first sentence of it's opening crawl....

"GENERAL Leia Organa Solo is DEAD..."
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

NeoGoomba wrote: 2017-12-29 10:00am Thanas does bring up something I had been hoping for after TFA: Master Luke going up against ALL of his traitorous students that later became, supposedly, the Knights of Ren. There was zero mention of them at all in this.
The Knights of Ren are implicitly mentioned when Luke says that Ben left with some of his apprentices while killing the rest.
Thanas wrote: 2017-12-29 10:24am I dunno, worked in plenty of other movies before where they show people - without knowing anything about them - being inspired by the actions of a hero.
Maybe, but there's nothing wrong with showing kids you've already seen.
It is however not quite right that she gets Luke's story. This to me speaks of a lack of creative writing. This random character who has had a saber for a few days, had a few days of training and some books is having his arc. Which is pretty ridiculous on its own, but my main gripe is this:
This isn't a writing criticism to me. This is like that old addage Lucas said about looking at a house the artist has painted white and wanting it to be green. That's fair enough as far as it goes, but I don't see how Rey has Luke's 'arc'. Luke isn't entitled to any particular arc.
They don't have to tear the old characters down to make the new ones great unless the new ones are so bad that they cannot stand on their own in the presence of legends. Which again speaks to writing.
It's not just about tearing old characters down to build up new ones, but also to make the old characters go through interesting changes from which you can mine dramatic material. We've seen the wild old teacher three times in these movies now (Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda).
I think we will luke see training her. But for how long? Another two lessons? Or is he going to be hanging around for years to train her so she can fully tap into her mary-sueish wank potential? Then why kill him in the first place.
I doubt we'll see him training her. He'll pop in and out to give advice. Possibly even harass Ben. If Luke could train Rey, why didn't Obi-Wan continue Luke's training after his death?

If they're smart, they'll effect a significant multi-year time jump where we can infer Rey taught herself further from the Jedi texts. It's not like we didn't infer that with Luke's massive increase in competence in between TESB and ROTJ even though he had never returned to Yoda in between that time.
Honestly it seems like they just want to wipe the board clean of the OT people so the new ones can do everything instead of building off of it. Which begs the question of why use the OT characters in the first place? Well, the out of universe answer is of course that they wanted to do a cash grab. And the in-universe reason? I cannot find one that necessitates this diminishing of well-loved heroes.
Ben's relationship to his parents is pretty essential to the plot of the film.
If it goes against everything of an established character then there needs to be a better explanation than "people change". People do not change their core characteristics for no reason.
I don't think it does. What about RotJ's ending would lead us to believe that Luke would be an amazing Jedi master who would never make a terrible mistake, suffer a terrible reverse, and sink into a funk? He was a young man saddled with the responsibility of training and incredibly powerful apprentice, and he fucked it up. Worse, it was his own nephew. This is not something he ever dealt with before. He had no measure of responsibility for Darth Vader's fall. Luke dying, pleading for his life wasn't going to turn Ben's heart as it did Vader.

https://www.avclub.com/this-is-not-goin ... 1821472840
But then, this is always the risk—and the inevitable disappointment—of epilogues. When Disney first acquired Lucasfilm and announced a new series of movies to take place after Return Of The Jedi, it was an implicit announcement that the victory our heroes had achieved, the one that fans had been celebrating for decades as an example of light always winning out against the dark, was about to be undone. Star Wars fans had dealt with this idea before in the post-Jedi stories of the Expanded Universe, in which new threats arose to take up the mantle of the not-wholly-vanquished Empire. But there Luke, Han, Leia, et al. were still young-ish and virile, and imbued with the lasting confidence of their win. They—and we—knew there wasn’t anything they couldn’t handle now, and there was little to challenge that notion—or to upset ROTJ’s perfect holiday photo ending of them all basking in their triumph while the Ewoks drummed joyfully on the hollowed-out skulls of the Stormtroopers they just ate. (They definitely ate them.) It’s why, when George Lucas decided there was more story to tell, he retreated to the safety of history, knowing there would still be that happy ending out there waiting. Nothing can erase that.

And yet, that’s not how life works. Victories fade, replaced by new challenges. Heroes get older. They become broken-down and kind of pathetic, bearded and cynical. Sometimes they even end up all alone, stewing over decades-old fuck-ups, suckling at the nipples of sad, mutant cows. Happy endings are always undone because “endings” don’t really exist. Time doesn’t stop when you want it to. Your “destiny” can and will be slowly eroded away by the many small, cumulative abrasions of life that inevitably follow after you achieve it. This is real, and it’s disillusioning, and it can fill you with righteous anger at the unjustness of it all. And then, you die.

In tackling this notion head-on—in being willing to not only challenge Star Wars’ happy ending, but to question whether happy endings actually exist—these new films are giving the saga something that it’s always somewhat lacked, even in all its constant grappling with themes of the spirit versus the machine: humanity. That’s not always an easy fit with the kinds of myths that Star Wars updates; rarely do we talk about the fact that Hercules, for example, triumphed over his Twelve Labors, only to end up a twice-married widower who got killed by a shirt. And the very idea of it pisses off people who cling to the illusion that their own hero’s journey will someday be “complete.”

And yet, that’s the story of life. We get to what seems like a comfortable end—married with children, say, accomplished in our careers, content to just let things remain status quo forever. Then life intrudes, because we’re only one small chapter within its story. Those things change and slip away. We may “fundamentally disagree” with what life decides for us. Life writes its epilogue anyway.
Essentially, Luke got a dose of real life.
If shoestring-budget TV shows regularly manage to do so in this day of age I see no reason a billion dollar movie cannot do the same thing. It is just a lack of creativity.
TV shows go for like 12-13 hours over a single season. It's a question of time, not budget.
I also disagree that Luke is not in the main cast of this movie. Mark Hamill is credited before any of the new heroes and certainly treated as a main character by all the media.
Because he's the actor playing Luke Skywalker, not because he's main cast. That's just marketing. The screentime he gets is not on par with those of the actual main cast - Rey, Finn, Poe and Ben.
And yet he gets plenty of screentime here and his parts are widely considered the strongest of the movie.
Of course they are - and he's interacting with Rey in nearly all of them.
Do you agree or not agree that this version of Luke is a realistic one? This is a difference of opinion. I vehemently disagree on that, mainly because while I can accept one or two of the OT heroes utterly failing at everything after Endor, I cannot accept all of them failing at the same time. That is completely unrealistic.
I'm not sure what 'realistic' means in terms of fictional character development. Do I buy Luke becoming how he is based on what happened to him, according to the film? Yes.
CaoCao wrote: 2017-12-29 03:01pm Abrams said that the vision, at least that part, was of the past. The past of the Force (Kylo, the Knights and Luke) and her past (when her parents abandon her).

Now, if you want to believe it's about a cosplay party Ben and friends went to...well...I won't say anything.
So what if it's the past? Is the destruction of Luke's training temple the only thing that could possibly have happened in the past? Kylo and his Knights did nothing in between then and TFA?
That she had the knowledge because she had the books. It is clearly implied that she had everything she needed inside of her (the connection to the Force and her good personality). That was a particular moment of good writing.

Then someone decided to dumb it down and make a more literal passing of the baton (screwing the previous scene).
Or it was always a double-meaning. I see no reason to insert some sort of interfering someone for no reason.
You're pulling this out of...nowhere. He explained in detail why he thought the Jedi must end, never why they should continue nor did he recognize a mistake in what he said. He "returns" to save his sister, risking his death, in a close to in-character moment.
Erm - at the very end of the film Luke literally gloats to Ben that he won't be the last Jedi.
It's closure, a good bye. Something he could have done in person and would have mattered. Making it an astral projection (force ghosts are translucent and blueish), cheapens the moment.
How does him being physically there change anything about their conversation?
The real theme was, to let go of the past, and they dumbed it to be pretty obvious. Even in interviews when facing criticism.
Kylo Ren keeps saying 'kill' the past, I'm not sure the movie is agreeing with him.
And that it's Rebellion vs Empire in a wacky scale (bigger but smaller). Point is, noone learned from any past mistake if you're rehashing the OT, and everything happens in almost the same way.
The only way they're 'alike' is that the First Order has an Imperial aesthetic and the Resistance has (or had) a rebel aesthetic. As of this film, the First Order is threatening to control the major systems in 'weeks' according to Rey (i.e. it does not control the whole galaxy) and the Resistance has been near wiped out.
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