Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[Elfdart]

lazy writing and horrible act of plot

I think we might as well get used to this as the new normal for the sequels. I want to be proven badly wrong, but the fact that they have abrams coming back for IX makes me very pessimistic.

Look on the bright side: At least it will be shot on FILM with REEEEEEEEAL SETS and PRACTICAL EFFECTS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_XMTN0QeWI&index=106

Oh, and he'll bring back that Mystery Box!

[Kojiro]

One other thing in this movie that did bother me was the use of cloaks. Leia has a 'cloaked beacon' whatever the hell that is as a plot device for Rey to find her way back to them. Now if your plan is hyperspace somewhere safe, turn on beacon, let friend find you, you don't need stealth. The galaxy must be full of people tracking shipments, broadcasting meeting locations, tracking their kids, whatever. There's no need for a 'cloak'- as if that makes sense anyway. The second is the transports. They're cloaked... just.. because they are. But not in any meaningful way, a quick 'decloaking scan' finds them and renders their cloaks useless. Which I don't know, I thought detecting shit you couldn't just look out the window and see was kind of the point of sensors- why exclude stealth detection?? I mean ok, if you can't add the feature sure, but if you have it available?? WTF? And thirdly the stolen luxury transport. This is actually a ship I'd buy having a cloak but no- apparently it can hyperspace in undetected and then- by plugging in a console and punching some buttons- the ship acquires a cloak!

Three cloaks of various kinds, just to make it all work.

[AniThyng]

It should also be considered that even a sympathetic world with a strong local defense fleet would not take kindly on the resistance kiting the FO fleet to thier world and forcing them to spend blood in a fight they didn't want. It seems Star killer base has the opposite effect of the death Star, in the latter case it galvanised resistance to the Empire, in the former it galvanised a selfish every planet for itself attitude

[Knife]

One other thing in this movie that did bother me was the use of cloaks. Leia has a 'cloaked beacon' whatever the hell that is as a plot device for Rey to find her way back to them. Now if your plan is hyperspace somewhere safe, turn on beacon, let friend find you, you don't need stealth. The galaxy must be full of people tracking shipments, broadcasting meeting locations, tracking their kids, whatever. There's no need for a 'cloak'- as if that makes sense anyway. The second is the transports. They're cloaked... just.. because they are. But not in any meaningful way, a quick 'decloaking scan' finds them and renders their cloaks useless. Which I don't know, I thought detecting shit you couldn't just look out the window and see was kind of the point of sensors- why exclude stealth detection?? I mean ok, if you can't add the feature sure, but if you have it available?? WTF? And thirdly the stolen luxury transport. This is actually a ship I'd buy having a cloak but no- apparently it can hyperspace in undetected and then- by plugging in a console and punching some buttons- the ship acquires a cloak!

Three cloaks of various kinds, just to make it all work.

When I was watching the movie, I honestly thought they'd use the cloaked beacon as the way they were tracking the resistance. But I guess not.

[NecronLord]

So, if the flotilla went to a sympathetic system, say Mon Calamari, and went there. The First Order would have to deal with both the Resistance flotilla and the Mon Calamari home fleet.

Which means that Holdo had a bad plan.

Flighty woman in a cocktail dress.

Home fleets are basically EU/sensible though. The canon doesn't include them.

[Kojiro]

When I was watching the movie, I honestly thought they'd use the cloaked beacon as the way they were tracking the resistance. But I guess not.

Given that Rey turns herself over to the FO a matter of hours later, the entire plot could have been written around that being the mechanism. Just have the information not be revealed to the larger audience. The FO is now tracking them, they don't know how and what was a refuelling stop off at the Crait base becomes a dig in last stand. Take out the casino stuff and the mutiny, focus more on Luke training Rey and make Finn and Rose's (though I'd use Leia) mission to various allies- the same ones they were calling out for help to. Turn it into a proper siege instead of a two day 'follow and plink'. Leia's allies aren't convinced to go- the spark is dying. But then reports of the Falcon arriving start coming through- and a lone, old style X wing. While they're sitting around the holo map debating whether to send help, a familiar voice comes over the speakers- "This is Red Three. Luke Skywalker going in!" Cue the Death Star assault music and we see Luke's Xwing flip and go on down towards the First Order. Meanwhile the room full of Rebel allies are all looking at Leia with smiles and confidence... Naturally Luke can only hold them off so long, but it's enough time for the allies to rock up and bust the survivors out. Luke can still die if need be, heroically, reigniting the spark. He tells Rey something like 'The spark is lit. Be the flame that burns the First Order down.'

That's how I'd have done it.

[Nephtys]

I posted like 12 pages ago: What at all is unrealistic about a much weaker military (The first order) destroying with an utterly unprecedented weapon the Republic fleet anchorages? Since Hyperspace is so fast, they could easily respond to attacks across the Republic with a few fleet bases as unlike the Empire, they aren't militarily occupying their systems. The Republic discounted the First Order as shitty Space North Korea which they surely could crush if the FO got out of hand and did anything harder than frothing or picking on rim planets.

Boom. Starkiller base fires. Suddenly instead of 5:1 fleet odds in favor of the New Republic, you get 1:3 in favor of the First Order, which also just launches a broad surprise attack that also happens to decapitate government. Very plausible given that we see Snoke's personal fleet has perhaps a dozen SDs, while you see hundreds of NR cruisers explode at Hosian.

People are nitpicking and making much wilder assumptions than this. Again, I haven't read any New-EU materials but this makes more sense than the strawmans of some unarmed galaxy we're seeing. Do you live in a coastal down? How many naval battlegroups are stationed there for local defense?

Also, Luke being a ghost somehow diminishes what he was doing? That was one of the best parts of the film where he confronts and increasingly unglued Kylo. Were we even watching the same movie?

[GuppyShark]

When I was watching the movie, I honestly thought they'd use the cloaked beacon as the way they were tracking the resistance. But I guess not.

In any other movie that would be the logical conclusion, and would at least lead to some interesting drama: If they destroy the beacon, they are effectively giving up on Luke and Rey.

[Shroom Man 777]

Also, Luke being a ghost somehow diminishes what he was doing? That was one of the best parts of the film where he confronts and increasingly unglued Kylo. Were we even watching the same movie?

That he didn't even need to be physically on the same side of the galaxy to punk Kylo in front of his troops is the best thing ever, it's the refutation of Dooku's "this cannot be decided by one's knowledge of the Force, but by one's skill with a lightsaber" crap in AOTC that gave us jumping Yoda ninja turtle lols.

It shows that he didn't even have to truly raise his hand against his nephew, which redeemed him of how he nearly lightsabered Kylo in his sleep back then. Luke's always won without using his weapon, like in ROTJ. His ultimate victories are either being an incapacitated whiny loser being electrocuted who gets his dad's pity, or this grizzly old sarcastic asshole who totally trolls grimdark McSitherson.

It's just like how Kylo punking Snoke by tricking him, while Snoke was saying that his immense powers meant he couldn't be betrayed and could foresee everything, is also a display of his growth as a character and also his abilities.

Screw Prequel-style World of Warcraft Jedi Force power spam. C'mon.

[Crazedwraith]

I posted like 12 pages ago: What at all is unrealistic about a much weaker military (The first order) destroying with an utterly unprecedented weapon the Republic fleet anchorages? Since Hyperspace is so fast, they could easily respond to attacks across the Republic with a few fleet bases as unlike the Empire, they aren't militarily occupying their systems. The Republic discounted the First Order as shitty Space North Korea which they surely could crush if the FO got out of hand and did anything harder than frothing or picking on rim planets.

Boom. Starkiller base fires. Suddenly instead of 5:1 fleet odds in favor of the New Republic, you get 1:3 in favor of the First Order, which also just launches a broad surprise attack that also happens to decapitate government. Very plausible given that we see Snoke's personal fleet has perhaps a dozen SDs, while you see hundreds of NR cruisers explode at Hosian.

People are nitpicking and making much wilder assumptions than this. Again, I haven't read any New-EU materials but this makes more sense than the strawmans of some unarmed galaxy we're seeing. Do you live in a coastal down? How many naval battlegroups are stationed there for local defense?

Also, Luke being a ghost somehow diminishes what he was doing? That was one of the best parts of the film where he confronts and increasingly unglued Kylo. Were we even watching the same movie?

Other than the First Order developing an FTL Volleygun Death Star without anyone suspecting is really stupid. Other than you can't nuke Washington DC and destroy all the US Military for exactly this reason. Other than the backstory of the Republic and Empire calling it quits and arranging peace six months after Endor in the backstory being moronic.

You don't see local defense groups in the US because no-one can sneak up on them. Hyperdrive means yes, a force from anywhere can attack from anywhere in the galaxy at any time with no warning. So yeah you need to defenses (though i suppose not necessarily fleets but ideal you would to protect shipping) when there is a known threat like the FO about.

Anyway, as I said, granting that stupid set up saying the republic's main or active fleet are destroyed and they're off balance makes sense, if they need to pull things out of mothballs or pull in dispersed ships. Thinking that ever republic ship or military ship in the entire galaxy is gone and the only forces left are FO or Resistence because Hux said 'the republic fleet' is kind of dumb.

[Crazedwraith]

Screw Prequel-style World of Warcraft Jedi Force power spam. C'mon.

It's better than the prequel trilogy using force powers because... it's Luke using force powers? C'mon, this is just a gratuitous swipe at the PT.

Damn that PT for showing us Jedi and Sith doing things Jedi and Sith are known to do. It's terribles.

[Vendetta]

So, if the flotilla went to a sympathetic system, say Mon Calamari, and went there. The First Order would have to deal with both the Resistance flotilla and the Mon Calamari home fleet.

Which means that Holdo had a bad plan.

Flighty woman in a cocktail dress.

Home fleets are basically EU/sensible though. The canon doesn't include them.

Home fleets are also a concept based on the old RPG sense that hyperspace took days or weeks to go places, whereas nothing in the films ever suggests anything other than that hyperspace travel is shown in basically realtime and so galactic crossings are actually a matter of minutes.

If you can put your fleet literally anywhere in the galaxy from anywhere else in under half an hour, a highly centralised anchorage makes sense for economies of scale until someone invents a gun that can shoot whole star systems from the other side of space.

[Shroom Man 777]

It's better than the prequel trilogy using force powers because... it's Luke using force powers? C'mon, this is just a gratuitous swipe at the PT.

Damn that PT for showing us Jedi and Sith doing things Jedi and Sith are known to do. It's terribles.

It was gratuitous without the buildup of say ESB. It's like a wrestling match where, without characterization, without in-ring psychology, without working the audience, the wrestlers just start throwing awesome moves that while awesome-looking kind of still fall flat because they didn't build it up. A lot of talented wrestlers make this mistake, and end up overworking themselves, when they could've paced their matches and reserved the high intensity flurries of moves when the audiences were drawn into it, getting more bang out of their buck and also using their showmanship to tell a story and not just rely on their athleticism.

The sequels built things up. When Rey and Kylo were beating the fuck out of each other, after Kylo killed Han and after Rey realized that shit just got real, it was pretty damn awesome. The fight in the snow? With Kylo ragged and Rey really raw and untrained? That was way better than leaping Yoda.

I mean, this is why the OT fights are better than Palpatine doing sith-psychocrushers and throwing senate pods at Yoda.

[Crazedwraith]

So, if the flotilla went to a sympathetic system, say Mon Calamari, and went there. The First Order would have to deal with both the Resistance flotilla and the Mon Calamari home fleet.

Which means that Holdo had a bad plan.

Flighty woman in a cocktail dress.

Home fleets are basically EU/sensible though. The canon doesn't include them.

Home fleets are also a concept based on the old RPG sense that hyperspace took days or weeks to go places, whereas nothing in the films ever suggests anything other than that hyperspace travel is shown in basically realtime and so galactic crossings are actually a matter of minutes.

If you can put your fleet literally anywhere in the galaxy from anywhere else in under half an hour, a highly centralised anchorage makes sense for economies of scale until someone invents a gun that can shoot whole star systems from the other side of space.

Only if you want an enemy fleet to hang around your system wrecking things for the whole process of getting a message from the attacked system ( which maybe jammed) gathering your fleet and jumping to the world under attack.

The freedom of movement for attack fleets means you need defense ships everywhere to have a hope of intercepting them.

[Shroom Man 777]

Anyway, as I said, granting that stupid set up saying the republic's main or active fleet are destroyed and they're off balance makes sense, if they need to pull things out of mothballs or pull in dispersed ships. Thinking that ever republic ship or military ship in the entire galaxy is gone and the only forces left are FO or Resistence because Hux said 'the republic fleet' is kind of dumb.

What Neph said doesn't preclude local systems having local self-defense forces as you've suggested, to ward off pirates or other scumbags (like the FO). These can range from Naboo-style pimping blinged out starfighter forces, to Kuati/Corellian/Corporate Sector-style local government/corp-owned starships and even Mandators and such.

But if the New Republic sorta federalized or decentralized, then these would all under the purview of the local governments/corps/systems, not under the authority of the central New Republic military. Their jurisdiction of operations and shit would be limited, Naboo defense force starfighters can only cover the Naboo system or area of responsibility, they can't go over to Jakku or whatever and wreck shit there. That's what the New Republic central defense force and fleet's for... and that's what got murdered.

(I bet this was the Republic's arrangement pre-Clone Wars, hence the CIS suddenly building up a galactic-scale military was such a surprise...)

Hence the signal to ask for allies' assistance, and these folks just giving it a pass since they probably don't want their limited system defense forces to get eaten by Super Snoke Destroyers.

[NecronLord]

People are nitpicking and making much wilder assumptions than this. Again, I haven't read any New-EU materials but this makes more sense than the strawmans of some unarmed galaxy we're seeing. Do you live in a coastal down? How many naval battlegroups are stationed there for local defense?

Unarmed galaxy is a lynchpin of the Nu-EU. The New Republic treaties even ban clone-armour protection for individual troopers. IE having a facemask and rebreather is banned. Yeaaah.

[Crazedwraith]

Anyway, as I said, granting that stupid set up saying the republic's main or active fleet are destroyed and they're off balance makes sense, if they need to pull things out of mothballs or pull in dispersed ships. Thinking that ever republic ship or military ship in the entire galaxy is gone and the only forces left are FO or Resistence because Hux said 'the republic fleet' is kind of dumb.

What Neph said doesn't preclude local systems having local self-defense forces as you've suggested, to ward off pirates or other scumbags (like the FO). These can range from Naboo-style pimping blinged out starfighter forces, to Kuati/Corellian/Corporate Sector-style local government/corp-owned starships and even Mandators and such.

But if the New Republic sorta federalized or decentralized, then these would all under the purview of the local governments/corps/systems, not under the authority of the central New Republic military. Their jurisdiction of operations and shit would be limited, Naboo defense force starfighters can only cover the Naboo system or area of responsibility, they can't go over to Jakku or whatever and wreck shit there. That's what the New Republic central defense force and fleet's for... and that's what got murdered.

(I bet this was the Republic's arrangement pre-Clone Wars, hence the CIS suddenly building up a galactic-scale military was such a surprise...)

Hence the signal to ask for allies' assistance, and these folks just giving it a pass since they probably don't want their limited system defense forces to get eaten by Super Snoke Destroyers.

That''s a very long version of what I just said.

eta: tangentially was it ever clarified what Starkiller blew up? Was it five planets in the Hosian system? or Five planets in five different systems. If it was the latter it would be marginally less stupid that significant amount of the Republic fleet was gone.

[NecronLord]

The Starkiller base destroyed the planets Courtsilius, Raysho, Hosnian, Cardota and Hosnian Prime, in the Hosnian System, and the Republic Home Fleet.

[Vendetta]

It returns again to the point that nobody is going to have a military force right now that can protect the Resistance from the First Order's fleet.

Even if systems have local defence forces none of them are going to have the force to stand up to a dozen Star Destroyers led by the Supremacy.

[Vendetta]

Home fleets are basically EU/sensible though. The canon doesn't include them.

Home fleets are also a concept based on the old RPG sense that hyperspace took days or weeks to go places, whereas nothing in the films ever suggests anything other than that hyperspace travel is shown in basically realtime and so galactic crossings are actually a matter of minutes.

If you can put your fleet literally anywhere in the galaxy from anywhere else in under half an hour, a highly centralised anchorage makes sense for economies of scale until someone invents a gun that can shoot whole star systems from the other side of space.

Only if you want an enemy fleet to hang around your system wrecking things for the whole process of getting a message from the attacked system ( which maybe jammed) gathering your fleet and jumping to the world under attack.

The freedom of movement for attack fleets means you need defense ships everywhere to have a hope of intercepting them.

This is a galaxy that can do realtime video communication between any two points in the galaxy on basically personal communications equipment (Poe calling Maz). All it takes is a phone call and however much of the Republic's fleet is on standby alert can arrive within a few minutes. That's not a lot of time for any attacker to do anything.

[Shroom Man 777]

"System" doesn't necessarily mean a single solar system anyway. Wasn't that how the "local systems" and Senators representing systems worked in the Prequels?

Either way, that the Starkiller beam was visible from Maz' cantina planet was fucking stupid. Like Vulcan exploding being visible... from a planet not orbiting Vulcan. Jesus...

FINE Rey saw it with her Force powers...

Ugh.

[Shroom Man 777]

This is a galaxy that can do realtime video communication between any two points in the galaxy on basically personal communications equipment (Poe calling Maz). All it takes is a phone call and however much of the Republic's fleet is on standby alert can arrive within a few minutes. That's not a lot of time for any attacker to do anything.

Attackers would have to know where the transmission sites are in order to jam them all (outposts could be dispersed, so say if scumbags attack not-Earth, observers in not-Pluto could send a distress signal), PLUS have enough power to jam a transmitter that's probably terrestrial and huge and full of those neutrino-venting bottomless pits or whatever...

AND the local defense forces could either delay the attackers enough for the signal to be sent, or even if all transmitters were jammed or wrecked, a ship could just hyper out and transmit a signal.

Wasn't this the plot of TPM?

[NecronLord]

"System" doesn't necessarily mean a single solar system anyway. Wasn't that how the "local systems" and Senators representing systems worked in the Prequels?

Either way, that the Starkiller beam was visible from Maz' cantina planet was fucking stupid. Like Vulcan exploding being visible... from a planet not orbiting Vulcan. Jesus...

FINE Rey saw it with her Force powers...

Ugh.

Stop being a fatty nerd, Shroom. Eat your popcorn and shut up.

[Crazedwraith]

It returns again to the point that nobody is going to have a military force right now that can protect the Resistance from the First Order's fleet.

Even if systems have local defence forces none of them are going to have the force to stand up to a dozen Star Destroyers led by the Supremacy.

Trying to figure out the bare minimum for what the Resistence seemed to expect to happen at the end. On paper, all their allies combined but have been able to engage or some how sneak past the remaining First Order fleet, engage or bypass the ground forces, put the remaining resistance on their ships ( by the end something the size of the falcon will do) and escape from the fleet.

Now that's the bare minimum in the context of the end. They seemed to think if they'd reach their allies they'd have a fair chance of fighting the FO before they were depleted by the action but that could have be more of an ongoing guerrilla campaign rather than an all out space battle.

I personally would think that individual allies must be able to fight the FO and win on paper, but the morale/lack of hope issue stopped them acting. That was what Luke's final stand was about, the legend to ignite the rebellion etc.

[Vendetta]

Well the original expectation was that they would hide out on Crait, the First Order wouldn't have known they were there and would assume them all dead, and they could be rescued in secret.

When Poe fucked that plan up they had to beg for support anyway, but nobody would or could take even the reduced risk for them.