Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[tezunegari]

[...]
Admiral dumb ass has a shit plan solely for plot contrivance.

The situation the writers made happen is flawed and had no foresight into it, or didn't listen to anyone if they ever brought up the problem.

In universe Holdos plan is quite sound. The FO cannot overtake the Resistance fleet and a hidden Rebel base is nearby. Get there or as close as possible with the remaining fuel and evacuate the personal. Then have the FO follow an empty ship until its fuel runs out or if possible make a hyperspace jump as far as possible from Crait away.

Now this would imply that the FO fleet cannot just make a short hyperspace jump in front of the fleeing Resistance.

The problem is Holdo is does not appear to be a competent leader. (both to me as viewer and apparently Poe as character)

It appears that noone on the ship knew there was a planet nearby they were heading towards.
A good leader would have inform the whole crew about the evacuation as soon as possible both to ensure a speedy preparation of the evacuation and preparation of the landing on Crait (what to do when they land). And more importantly upholding morale.

The moment Poe gets mad (and accuses her of cowardice and treason) because the transports are being fueled she should have had him detained for clear insubordination.

Even after this display she is surprised when he and his fellow pilots mutiny. While the plan was already compromised at this point and telling him would be useless, she doesn't know this but didn't even attempt to explain her plain to stop the mutiny. Just "I hope you know what you are doing."

And once Leia is back she tells Leia "He is trouble, but I like him."

Another problem is Rose.
There were three desertion attempts which she stopped. Did the higher ups know about this and did nothing? Or did Rose keep those attempts hidden?
If the higher ups knew about desertion attempts they should have revealed at least part of the plan to raise morale.
If Rose hid those attempts she made a bad situation worse.

---

About the whole chase plot.
Out of universe the chase plot line makes no sense to me. The only time fuel was a problem was during an episode of Rebels when Phoenix Squadron had to steal fuel for the carrier IIRC.
Leias Resistance wasn't a hidden illegal guerilla force. (at least I never got the feeling it was supposed to be more like a has-been general playing doomsday-prepper) Fuel should not have been an issue after a single jump or those ships are the worst gas-guzzlers I have heard of.

Now if they had taken nBSG as template and made the Resistance jump to hyperspace at very short intervals and mentioned that the engines aren't made to sustain this it would have felt better to me. Maybe ad a line of "We can't lead a fleet of this size to any system. There are no defense fleets that could stand against it." would have made it clear why they have to jump to empty space.
Or it would have allowed for them to jump to different possible allies just to encounter other FO fleets already entangled with the defense fleets present, forcing them to leave.

IIRC the First Order isn't supposed to be the Imperial Remnant but a part of the Imperial fleet that fled into the Unknown Regions after defeat at Jakku.
Wouldn't it be funny if the Imperial Remnant become the "good guys" in Episode IX? And while reformed and not as terrible as the old Empire they are not doing it out of the goodness of their heart but to finally crush the rebellion and this upstart First Order. And the Resistance is forced to join them because the new Rebuplic is just as corrupt as the old Republic and the Empire was.

[Galvatron]

Wouldn't it be funny if the Imperial Remnant become the "good guys" in Episode IX? And while reformed and not as terrible as the old Empire they are not doing it out of the goodness of their heart but to finally crush the rebellion and this upstart First Order. And the Resistance is forced to join them because the new Rebuplic is just as corrupt as the old Republic and the Empire was.

That would be funny. Also...

Spoiler

Grand Admiral Sloane, Grand Moff Randd and the SSD Eclipse all survived the Battle of Jakku. We still don't know what Thrawn's fate was either, assuming he ever died at all. There could be "moderate" Imperials out there who have nothing but contempt for the First Order.

[Crazedwraith]

Not sure an Imperial remenant is implied by either film. Certainly not a prescence like the Republic. It would be an odd thing to reveal in part 3 of a trilogy with no foreshadowing.

[Galvatron]

Agreed. My prediction is that they're saving the Imperial remnant for EU filler stories that take place during the 30-year gap between ROTJ and TFA, not so they can pop up in Episode IX.

[Rhadamantus]

Open war? "The First Order reigns" sounds to me like what was left of the Republic already capitulated to Snoke's rule. Hell, it's possible that the allies the Resistance summoned were already neutralized, either because they were destroyed or they surrendered under threat of total annihilation.

Either way, it wouldn't surprise me if the major worlds of the Republic would have been hard-pressed to simply defend themselves, much less wage a counter-offensive. In light of what had just happened to the Hosnian system, I imagine that most of them decided that survival was a higher priority than revenge.

That's still stupid, though. Even if the Republic outright scrapped 90% of the military forces and 90% of what remained was destroyed at Hosnian, they'd still have plenty of ships left, enough to have something left and the ability to you know, defend themselves. Clearly their fleet was able to do so before Hosnian.

[Galvatron]

Even if they'd had the logistical capability to rally the scattered remnants of the Republic fleet, they'd still be at the mercy of gutless or corrupt politicians to actually do so. TFA made it clear that, even at full power, the Republic couldn't get out of its own way. That's why Leia formed the Resistance in the first place.

[CetaMan]

Another problem is Rose.
There were three desertion attempts which she stopped. Did the higher ups know about this and did nothing? Or did Rose keep those attempts hidden?
If the higher ups knew about desertion attempts they should have revealed at least part of the plan to raise morale.
If Rose hid those attempts she made a bad situation worse.

She attempts to drag Finn to the brig, and likely did drag the other deserters to the brig. The officers at the brig would know, which implies that command would know. Unless the personnel at the bridge didn't report it to command. Discipline is their job, not an engineer's.

[tezunegari]

Another problem is Rose.
There were three desertion attempts which she stopped. Did the higher ups know about this and did nothing? Or did Rose keep those attempts hidden?
If the higher ups knew about desertion attempts they should have revealed at least part of the plan to raise morale.
If Rose hid those attempts she made a bad situation worse.

She attempts to drag Finn to the brig, and likely did drag the other deserters to the brig. The officers at the brig would know, which implies that command would know. Unless the personnel at the bridge didn't report it to command. Discipline is their job, not an engineer's.

Wouldn't it have been easier, and more logical, to call security to haul his ass to the brig then? Or was she so unimportant that there was nothing for her to do but dragging a comatose deserter to the brig?

[Galvatron]

Perhaps the rest of the crew was at battlestations and she was the only person they could spare to guard to the escape pods. After all, they only had some 400 people on board, right? Isn't that number a little small for a ship like the Raddus?

[tezunegari]

Perhaps the rest of the crew was at battlestations and she was the only person they could spare to guard to the escape pods. After all, they only had some 400 people on board, right? Isn't that number a little small for a ship like the Raddus?

Ah, yes. That's quite possible. The Raddus is supposed to be a heavily modified and automated to allow the Resistance to use it at all.

[Gandalf]

Unless they have more Starkillers, the First Order is in trouble compared to an enraged galaxy that just received an unjustified sucker punch from them.

Based on what? From the opening crawl and dialogue through the film, the First Order are across the major planets and exerting all sorts of control.

Also, given that there's been two huge wars in the previous half century, maybe a lot of people are just saying "fuck it" and taking their chances living under the FO?

Then they can call Maz for a refill once she's no longer dealing with a labor strike.

Who gets there first? Maz and her refuelling fleet (pending labour issues), or the space military tearing through the galaxy? Why roll that dice?

[Soontir C'boath]

At the end of the day, the Force Awakens gave us a downhill spiral that Rian tried to salvaged in TLJ, but with the constraints already in place, it was all fucked. So the only thing left was whatever character development he could eke out of the situation. That's frankly been the only positive thing about TLJ and the only thing the people who like the movie can spin about, but that doesn't excuse all the details surrounding that development either. The plot, setting, props, etc matter as well and to throw them out to the side as unimportant for what is one of the if not the largest franchise in the world is a slap in the face of what should have been a rather spectacular story.

If we're fine with Darksaber like details, then I rather be uncomfortable.

[Vympel]

Just for those saying they liked The Last Jedi and it thought was a good movie:

Do you feel TFA was a good movie? Was it better or worse, in your view, than TLJ? Not in terms of calcs, I mean in terms of entertainment value and as an "installment in the Star Wars saga."

I personally didn't think much of both, and think this new one was worse. But I'm curious to hear what you think.

I liked them both. But TFA is Star Wars comfort food and the last act and Starkiller Base was too derivative. TLJ is a better film.

OK, the cosplay party with murders then.

Sorry your totally made up assumption about what this vision was is not the only correct answer? Who would've thought that the Knights of Ren kill people? Shocking.

The problem is there's no double meaning, one cancels the other.

They don't at all. You're the one assuming they're in conflict, no one else.

So, Luke said that last bit 'cause he changed his mind and changed his mind 'cause he said that. A fine circular "reasoning".

No, genius, I just kno whe changed his mind because he said that. That's it. I watched the movie. I could determine - like anyone actually paying attenton could - that Luke gloating to Ben that he had failed in destroying the Jedi is obviously not something who believed the Jedi should end would actually say at that point. This is not rocket science.

Guess the long explanation why the Jedi should end and the literal torch & lightning can be negated by a last moment one liner.

Yes, they can. That's movies. A lot of information is conveyed very efficiently.

Snip the rest... this is just ridiculous.

Oh how convenient, snip the rest! Of course. "Luke wasn't really there so it's actually meaningless for some reason I can't explain" was rdiciulous though.

On another note, Poe is a dipshit that made a bad trade on taking out the dreadnought. Guess it's pointless for a fleet to worry about a fleet killer. Better to crawl while losing resources like mad and put all that's left in defenseless boats...that's strategical genious.

More unreasonable bullshit. Because the Resistance fleet knew they'd be on the run from a fleet that can track their every move when he attacked the dreadnought, right? Sorry that no one in the Resistance Fleet jumped in their TARDIS and accurately predicted the future.

And directly dial one of the possible candidates to help you (in the 18 hours or so of slow crawling)...nah, that's also stupid.

Or, you know, they didn't have the ability to do that, like they said. Maybe Maz Kanata isn't in the Outer Rim.

Scater the remaing fleet to friendly or hard to travel territory...also stupid, better left them derelict so they can be vaporized.

What a surprise, a terrible plan that relies on things that are totally made up.

As a general commentary, its truly remarkable how much whining there is about the New Republic and its military in relation to these films. This can only be a result of a refusal to let go of literally decades of EU.

The film outright tell us that the New Republic's fleet was wiped out by Starkiller Base. Period. The expanded material confirms this (e.g. every T-85 X-Wing in the New Republic arsenal was destroyed with the fleet at Hosnian Prime). If there's any military forces left, they'd obviously be no match for the First Order and in any event so scattered and confused in the immediate aftermath of the fleet's annihilation they wouldn't even know how to find their ass wih two hands, and totally irrelevant to TLJ's events. I find it ridiculous how hard it is for this to be accepted. It's just fannish foot-stomping based on reading too much goddamn EU.

Worse, is how EU factoids about the Old Republic- evident nowhere in the films - are applied to assumptions about the New Republic in the films. It's simply assumed that the EU must have millions of planets even though no one has ever said this.

If one actually looks at the expanded material in relation to the films:

- The New Republic hadn't reached the level of influence the Old Republic did; and
- The New Republic was largely demilitarised.

Sorry you didn't get your New Republic military EU movie, but let it go.

[NecronLord]

You don't get it do you?

EU material doesn't exist in the movies, there is no more advantageous battleground.

Point of Fact, the nebula I mentioned is not Legends (AKA 'EU') it is in Rebels. That makes it top-tier Disney Canon, equal to A New Hope, as far as their official policies are concerned, and the same LFL story group supervise both products.

Not that it truly matters, but it is absolutely not 'EU' or 'something we don't know exists' - Rebels and Clone Wars are not just canon, they're now supposed to be equally canon with the movies - which is obvious bull.

Canon is of course, a marketing gimmick and nothing more, from the Doylian point of view, but the Acheron Nebula and similar celestial barriers do exist in the Watsonian 'in-universe' perspective.

The mitigating factor for this is that in Rebels, only the likes of (later General) Hera Syndulla and Thrawn (other imperial officers were clueless) understood the Acheron Nebula, and there's no reason to assume Holdo has that kind of military experience or knowledge. But as a hypothetical best plan, it is certainly superior. It's more than likely that Holdo simply aren't aware of this as a tactical possibility, she has not had the advantage of watching Rebels after all.

[NecronLord]

Don't you get it yet? Holdo's plan wasn't going to work, idiot Poe or not.

Disagreed; Holdo's plan could certainly have worked. It was obvious that the ships were slipping away until the active 'de-cloaking' scan was run based on DJ's information.

[Kojiro]

Disagreed; Holdo's plan could certainly have worked. It was obvious that the ships were slipping away until the active 'de-cloaking' scan was run based on DJ's information.

The decloaking scan is just mind numbing stupidity. The idea there are potential ships flying about you're unaware of because you didn't bother to look is insane negligence. Yes, we've been tasked with wiping out the resistance, but we will purposefully BLIND OURSELVES to the possibility of small ships coming or going? I guess it's a shame they didn't have more of those shuttles to just zip off on.

Incidentally, Wookipedia, citing the visual guide, says the lifeboats were cloaked and it was Rose that knocked that up. How incredibly convenient!

[Vendetta]

You don't get it do you?

EU material doesn't exist in the movies, there is no more advantageous battleground.

Point of Fact, the nebula I mentioned is not Legends (AKA 'EU') it is in Rebels. That makes it top-tier Disney Canon, equal to A New Hope, as far as their official policies are concerned, and the same LFL story group supervise both products.

From the perspective of nerds on the internet, that might be true.

From the perspective of people making movies they expect to be watched by millions? No, nothing outside of the other movies is going to get more than the most tangental reference as existing. It certainly is not going to be used as a major plot driver "hey remember that thing from that cartoon you don't watch? It's how we get out of this!"....


When you're watching a Star Wars movie or thinking about what could have happened in it, ignore everything that wasn't in a Star Wars movie.

[Vympel]

If a certain breed of Star Wars fan wrote and directed The Empire Strikes Back, a visual novel:

https://imgur.com/a/6smO9

[Gandalf]

If a certain breed of Star Wars fan wrote and directed The Empire Strikes Back, a visual novel:

*images snipped*

I very much like this post.

[NecronLord]

The decloaking scan is just mind numbing stupidity. The idea there are potential ships flying about you're unaware of because you didn't bother to look is insane negligence. Yes, we've been tasked with wiping out the resistance, but we will purposefully BLIND OURSELVES to the possibility of small ships coming or going? I guess it's a shame they didn't have more of those shuttles to just zip off on.

Incidentally, Wookipedia, citing the visual guide, says the lifeboats were cloaked and it was Rose that knocked that up. How incredibly convenient!

What's wrong with that? It's no worse than Han Solo having literally the fastest ship in the Rebel Fleet. Rose is an excellent mechanic.

And I'm not sure why the idea that a sensor defeating device exists that can be defeated by a focussed scan is hard to buy. It seems like you're wanting to hate the movie more than looking rationally at the science.

From the perspective of nerds on the internet, that might be true.

From the perspective of people making movies they expect to be watched by millions? No, nothing outside of the other movies is going to get more than the most tangental reference as existing. It certainly is not going to be used as a major plot driver "hey remember that thing from that cartoon you don't watch? It's how we get out of this!"....


When you're watching a Star Wars movie or thinking about what could have happened in it, ignore everything that wasn't in a Star Wars movie.

The fact that you trimmed all of my post where the watsonian/doylian divide and the nature of 'canon' as a marketing tool, and then try to post the obscurity of the source as a was discussed tells me all I need to know really.

I can only presume what you're trying to say is that they could not have introduced such a thing if they had wanted to?

Because yes, a mass market movie can introduce literally the same concept no trouble. It doesn't need more than a 'they'd be crazy to follow us.' Space terrain is not a difficult trope for audiences nor unprecedented in mass market films. It's even been used as a backdrop for comical scenes while escaping a superior force.

Not that I necessarily think they should have, retreading the asteroid field from ESB would be a misstep. Could the writers have introduced such an element if they'd wanted a chase where the rebel fleet escapes via cunning? Absolutely. You can absolutely have your space guerillas take to the space hills and the audience will buy it. Difficult is presenting the rather more realistic case of space 'terrain' that favours a large craft over small ones.

See, the thing with your point is that it actually cuts both ways, yes, the writers have near total freedom to avoid EU or NuEU concepts as they please. They also have the ability to introduce very much whatever they want.

Arguing writing realities vs. character action is essentially saying character does not matter; "it doesn't matter whether Othello believes Iago, as it's a play intended to be tragedy, so the murder will happen anyway."

[Shroom Man 777]

The problem is there's no double meaning, one cancels the other.

They don't at all. You're the one assuming they're in conflict, no one else.

So, Luke said that last bit 'cause he changed his mind and changed his mind 'cause he said that. A fine circular "reasoning".

No, genius, I just kno whe changed his mind because he said that. That's it. I watched the movie. I could determine - like anyone actually paying attenton could - that Luke gloating to Ben that he had failed in destroying the Jedi is obviously not something who believed the Jedi should end would actually say at that point. This is not rocket science.

Guess the long explanation why the Jedi should end and the literal torch & lightning can be negated by a last moment one liner.

Yes, they can. That's movies. A lot of information is conveyed very efficiently.

Snip the rest... this is just ridiculous.

Oh how convenient, snip the rest! Of course. "Luke wasn't really there so it's actually meaningless for some reason I can't explain" was rdiciulous though.

The Jedi were renewed, maybe the Jedi didn't need to go, but as Yoda stated, Luke's old conception of the Jedi - and the Jedi's old conception of themselves! - was what needed to go. Hence the cloistered sacred site holding the books had to be burned, burned in a way that the flames resembled the freaking phoenix that's the logo on the Jedi books and the Rebellion, a phoenix that supposedly symbolizes rebirth.

At the same time, humble and naive Rey taking the books carelessly, heedless of treating them like sacred things to hide for millennia or put upon a pedestal of holiness, instead just seeing them as useful tools to disseminate to others in need, is exactly the new kind of reborn Jedi that's needed, that's taken the place of the old.

This works with Luke needing one last push to figure out the old Jedi's problems of stratification, which we saw in the Prequels yet which Luke was unprepared to tackle since none of the Force Ghosts explained that to him and all he had to go with were whatever knowhow he could scrounge up (and at the same time, as he scrounged up this knowledge, we saw how he got wracked with guilt over the Jedi's failures that allowed galactic oppression, compounded by his being Vader's son!).

[Shroom Man 777]

No, the prequel trilogy treated the force like X-gene superpowers. Students didn't learn to be one with all life, to look ahead and back, to reflect on their inner natures; they learned how to fight using the lightsaber and wire fu.

Exactly!

Shroom prefers the OT Force, the orientalist appropriation of Easter philosophy with a bit of woo-woo spirituality thrown in. In the OT, one learned about the Force through Yoga and meditation. Then you go out for frozen yogurt.

So to recap:

OT: Crouching Tiger Hidden a dragon

PT: Wolverine: Origins

ST: Marvel's Touched By an Angel.

That's actually it. I mean, say what you will about Lucas' appropriation and simplification of Eastern whatevers and woo-woofication of it, but it was neat even if childish... but then again, the black-white simplification he did isn't THAT different from what Tolkien did with mythologies from his own western sphere. I think with the OT, Lucas was trying to do something sincere and different for its time... something more detailed and nuanced might look like Dune.

I think the ST's depiction actually improved upon the OT, added ambiguity or depth, or the trappings of it.

(And as someone who teaches an eastern art of staving people's skulls in, I know and will profess that its appropriation/borrowing and transmission by non-natives can be constructive if it's not exploitative, if it helps the local practitioners or gives back to them somehow, or if it's just neutral, or if it's done without disrespect, if there's no dodgy power dynamics in play, etc. Of course it's shit if some gaijin just takes it, heads home, makes McDojos that teach watered down nonsense while earning big bucks. )

[Shroom Man 777]

Broad transmissions across the galaxy sent to anyone listening might not work the same as point to point personal comms between linked transmitters and receivers? It's not just speed dialing Maz, Poe also was in constant communications with FInn...

Poe did have a transmitter to contact Finn, not to Maz. And you don't need to call the entire galaxy, just someone with a tanker (a full one).

Huh? He also had a transmitter for Maz. How else could they have talked?

Anyway, maybe they DID try transmitting individually and got brushed off, and so they decided to send a braoder signal.

Nothing says the ship was stealth. And they lost several ships that could have scaped.

I didn't say it was stealthed, it just wasn't noticed somehow. But if it did repeat trips, or if the other larger ships (also not-stealthed) fled in separate directions, then those would've been tracked.

The symbolic place where the ancient Jedi teachings were sequestered out...snip

Your Dash Rendar's shoulderpads posts make more sense.

I guess symbolism and lore are lost on you.

Yoda burned the site that symbolically represented the cloistering of Jedi teachings, that represented the Jedi being detached and elevated or secluded from the rest of society. The very stratification that, in the PT, led to their downfall, events that still terrified Old Luke. Why shouldn't such a shrine deserve being sent off with fire?

While the place (that represented the seclusion of Jedi teachings and Jedi books) burned, Rey got those same books and put them on her space station wagon and headed off to the rest of the galaxy. She was going to use the books in the exact opposite way the Jedi had for eons (namely, hide them on some sacred shrine world).

By laying to rest this old axiom or perspective of the Jedi, handing it over to Rey who is a clean slate and unfilled with PT-era Jedi pomp and stratification, the Jedi are renewed.

Yoda did tell Luke that he wasn't wrong, he was just trying to do things in a mistaken way.

So yes, the old ways of the Jedi had to end. New Jedi ways have to be made up, by Rey. But freed of stratification, of "veneration" and seclusion and separation, she may avoid the mistakes of the old.

For what matters, the Jedi order ended with order 66, Luke's order ended with Ben/Kylo, and the fire amounted to nothing. A double back rather than a metaphor.

Huh? Well, either way, Luke's order was built on Prequel-era Jedi teachings that he probably scrounged up, and he was still afraid of repeating the old Jedi's mistakes. So, the burning of the temple represented a send-off, whereas what Rey did represents a new beginning.

Supposedly, they appear to communicate with the living, they didn't project images of someone else's belongings post-mortem.

That image still communicated with the living.

[Shroom Man 777]

If a certain breed of Star Wars fan wrote and directed The Empire Strikes Back, a visual novel:

https://imgur.com/a/6smO9

Oh my god these are brilliant.

[Ender]

Hey folks, the point of it is not to refer to the lore to solve the puzzle and figure out who was right, or try and think your way out of the conflict.

The goal of it was to put in conflict a set of flawed character traits (embodied by Poe) against a set of flawed character traits (embodied by Holdo) and examine them in contrast. That said character traits readily map to stereotypes in the real world is what makes it commentary. The set up that puts them in conflict is after thought, that they are in conflict and how those traits interact with and against each other is what you are supposed to be watching.

So consulting the wiki to figure out "what should have happened" and "why didn't they do this" is missing the point.

Okay, imagine if there was an episode of, say, ER, where there's a conflict between two doctors on how to get past a door that says Pull, with one saying that they should push, and the other saying that they should pull, and it costs them the patient's life, should people who know a bit about how doors work say, 'Eh, it's about the characters', especially as one character went through that door earlier in the same episode, or should they think about how such a problem doesn't make sense and that they could have solved it in two minutes, tops?

That's the issue. It's such a glaringly obvious problem that almost anyone could have solved it.

Good god, keep you away from something like Waiting for Godot or Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead

"Characters interacting in a featureless white void? That makes no sense! What air did they breathe? And how did they transition from the void to another play? Why didn't they use that technology to jump to Guys and Dolls and save themselves?"

you never see people arguing that mystery writers shouldn't have to worry about logic or rules because the story isn't really about how the detective solves the case but about how his character interacts with other characters.

You do in fact see that, all the fucking time. The most famous detective of all makes insane, illogical observations and leaps in logic, and people don't care, because Sir Arthur Conan Doyle did it with panache.