Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[Kojiro]

Well, she seemed pretty upset to me.

But it doesn't weaken her. It doesn't make her accept Kylo's offer, even to save her new friends (having accepted she has *no one* else. It doesn't reflect her desire to have someone/people around her (remember her Dark Side vision, what she feared, was just her, on an on until an end). She just grits her teeth and gets on with making tough decisions (which all pay off for her).

The attack might have been 10km away but the entire ship would've been shaken like a mother fucker from one of its wings basically breaking off. There was also the huge explosion after the silent cut (i.e. the moment the sound comes back).

That sounds like an *excellent* reason to check in on the big man. Either it's serious, in which case it warrants checking in or it's not, in which case the area remains among the most secure on the ship. And you're ignoring the praetorians setting of an alarm- like guards do- when their boss was killed. It's not like they just went 'oh shit now Kylo's in charge' did they?

But more importantly, showing Rey having difficulty getting off the Supremacy - from a movie making / script perspective, its a total waste of time. She's just had an epic duel in the throne room against the Praetorians and a Force tug-of-war with Ben. There's nothing to dramatically mined by watching her dodge random mooks or spacecraft. It's narratively irrelevant.

So again the plot bends over backwards so Rey can do whatever she needs? Or is it really just lazy ass writing to put your heroine into the heart of the enemy stronghold and then pluck her out effortlessly? Rey has now been in First Order captivity twice in almost as many days and literally walked out of it both times because apparently she's a ninja too.

No, the far better option would have been to have her fight Kylo. Have her actually show weakness, show her inner turmoil, show his superior skills with the Force (if not power) and his new focus. Have him best her by cutting the saber in half. And when she's on her back, at the end of his blade, have Kylo tell her he wants her to join him. She's misguided, but he doesn't want to kill her. She just needs time. He then walks over to the throne and pushes some buttons, revealing a hidden passage that leads to Snoke's personal ship. He tells her to go, think on his offer, and that he'll see her again. Maybe even throw in a 'May the Force be with you' if you really want to play the 'balanced Force' game, and she leaves.

Rey finally gets a moment of not winning everything and Kylo can actually be considered a threat for the next movie. Rey still escapes, saber still destroyed but we don't see the inevitable battle between her and Kylo so one sided. So there absolutely IS narrative and drama to be mined if you think past 'she dodges mooks'.

I just don't see how both of them pulling on a lightsaber so hard that the metal failed before either of them did is some sort of poor 'showing'. In so far as the duel went, Kylo Ren took out three Praetorians alone while Rey was engaged with one (and got wounded).

Because SHE is supposed to be the conflicted one while he is explicitly stated by Snoke to now be focused, without conflicted. It's the whole reason he lost to her in the forest, but now the tables are turned... and Rey just powers through and comes out on top. Again.

And re the guards: this is another example of the plot breaking itself to suit her. Sure she's grown up on the mean streets of Jakku, but these guys are Snoke's personal guard. She shouldn't be able to stand against one, let alone *four* at once (and yes, she starts off against four). This is yet another opportunity for Kylo to show his superior training and experience. Where's that 'freeze someone in place' TK? The shoving 20ft into trees? They use no god damn Force powers in that fight, which makes Kylo look like a moron. We can forgive Rey- she's not trained yet, but Kylo has no excuse and every damn reason to start force pushing those guys around or freezing them or just choking them to death. Sure, his sword work is better than hers and yeah, her arm gets scratched, but the whole fight comes off very much like they were even, especially with Kylo being choked out and unarmed at the end, needing Rey's assistance.

Kylo's more focused than he was, but he's hardly stoic. He holds out his hand and begs Rey to join him, and rails at her when she hesitates.

Yeah, he wants her to join him. And she is supposed to want to as well- either out of fear for her friends, fear for herself, fear or being alone and the weight that she has no one else. He doesn't need to be stoic, he's a fucking Dark Side user, not a Jedi. Wanting the hot super force girl you feel you have a connection to is hardly a weakness for someone like them.

I don't think Kylo having his saber enters into it - he doesn't want to kill her. He didn't even want to kill her on Starkiller Base.

No, I don't believe he does, but having a weapon (or not) changes the dynamics of the scene. That's my only point. He could have let her have it and defended himself while trying to talk her into joining, for example.

[Vympel]

But it doesn't weaken her. It doesn't make her accept Kylo's offer, even to save her new friends (having accepted she has *no one* else. It doesn't reflect her desire to have someone/people around her (remember her Dark Side vision, what she feared, was just her, on an on until an end). She just grits her teeth and gets on with making tough decisions (which all pay off for her).

Ben never offered her a deal to save her friends but.

That sounds like an *excellent* reason to check in on the big man. Either it's serious, in which case it warrants checking in or it's not, in which case the area remains among the most secure on the ship. And you're ignoring the praetorians setting of an alarm- like guards do- when their boss was killed. It's not like they just went 'oh shit now Kylo's in charge' did they?

They didn't set off an alarm, they just attacked.

So again the plot bends over backwards so Rey can do whatever she needs? Or is it really just lazy ass writing to put your heroine into the heart of the enemy stronghold and then pluck her out effortlessly? Rey has now been in First Order captivity twice in almost as many days and literally walked out of it both times because apparently she's a ninja too.

It's not 'bending over backwards' at all. There's nothing in the film's plot that requires the Supremacy to somehow be in a condition to stop Rey's escsape with Snoke's personal craft.

No, the far better option would have been to have her fight Kylo. Have her actually show weakness, show her inner turmoil, show his superior skills with the Force (if not power) and his new focus. Have him best her by cutting the saber in half. And when she's on her back, at the end of his blade, have Kylo tell her he wants her to join him. She's misguided, but he doesn't want to kill her. She just needs time. He then walks over to the throne and pushes some buttons, revealing a hidden passage that leads to Snoke's personal ship. He tells her to go, think on his offer, and that he'll see her again. Maybe even throw in a 'May the Force be with you' if you really want to play the 'balanced Force' game, and she leaves.

Rey finally gets a moment of not winning everything and Kylo can actually be considered a threat for the next movie. Rey still escapes, saber still destroyed but we don't see the inevitable battle between her and Kylo so one sided. So there absolutely IS narrative and drama to be mined if you think past 'she dodges mooks'.

What you're proposing now necessitates two lightsaber fights back to back. There's absolutely no time for this. And for what? So Kylo Ren can beat her? Why is this necessary? And then he's gonna let her walk right out? When he knows she'll go straight to the Resistance which he wants to wipe out? This is just a convoluted mess to write and shoot.

It should be self-evident how much the script needs to change because of some totally unnecessary focus on solving the 'problem' that "Rey got off the ship that's just been broken in half too easily" and "Rey doesn't lose enough". Instead of showing us Hux walking in on the slaughter in the throne room and everything we get from that (Kylo Ren seizing power, being in a position to blame Rey, Hux being seconds away from shooting Kylo Ren while he's incapacitated, etc), we have to have a whole extra action sequence, then have Kylo Ren inexplicably let her leave so she can ruin his plans minutes later, and then somehow establish how he's going to explain what the hell happened in the throne room and how he let her get away. It's convoluted as all get out.

Because SHE is supposed to be the conflicted one while he is explicitly stated by Snoke to now be focused, without conflicted. It's the whole reason he lost to her in the forest, but now the tables are turned... and Rey just powers through and comes out on top. Again.

If she came out on top, she would've got the saber.

And re the guards: this is another example of the plot breaking itself to suit her. Sure she's grown up on the mean streets of Jakku, but these guys are Snoke's personal guard. She shouldn't be able to stand against one, let alone *four* at once (and yes, she starts off against four).

Why not? She's the chosen one of the Force and they're random mundanes.

This is yet another opportunity for Kylo to show his superior training and experience. Where's that 'freeze someone in place' TK? The shoving 20ft into trees? They use no god damn Force powers in that fight, which makes Kylo look like a moron. We can forgive Rey- she's not trained yet, but Kylo has no excuse and every damn reason to start force pushing those guys around or freezing them or just choking them to death. Sure, his sword work is better than hers and yeah, her arm gets scratched, but the whole fight comes off very much like they were even, especially with Kylo being choked out and unarmed at the end, needing Rey's assistance.

Why do we need to see it? The "oh he didn't use this force power this time" complaint is as old as the hills, and the response is always the same - because his force intuition told him that if he had used it, he probably would've gotten killed. He's being attacked by like four opponents at once. It's not unreasonable to save your strength. His swordwork is his Force ability. This has always been the case.

Yeah, he wants her to join him. And she is supposed to want to as well- either out of fear for her friends, fear for herself, fear or being alone and the weight that she has no one else. He doesn't need to be stoic, he's a fucking Dark Side user, not a Jedi. Wanting the hot super force girl you feel you have a connection to is hardly a weakness for someone like them.

I don't know where you got this idea that Ben was offering to save her friends, but he wasn't.

[Kojiro]

Ben never offered her a deal to save her friends but.

No, but she could have offered it to him. IF her fear of loneliness was actually an issue for her.

They didn't set off an alarm, they just attacked.

That's my point. Their lord has just died and none of them take a moment to press an alarm button on their suit, communicator, wall etc. They rushed into battle against *two force users*. And oh look, they lost.

It's not 'bending over backwards' at all. There's nothing in the film's plot that requires the Supremacy to somehow be in a condition to stop Rey's escsape with Snoke's personal craft.

You were the one that suggested it be in disarray, not me.

What you're proposing now necessitates two lightsaber fights back to back. There's absolutely no time for this. And for what? So Kylo Ren can beat her? Why is this necessary? And then he's gonna let her walk right out? When he knows she'll go straight to the Resistance which he wants to wipe out? This is just a convoluted mess to write and shoot.

No time? I can think a bunch that could be cut to make room. But the fight doesn't have to be long. On the contrary, if she's shown to be *quickly* defeated by Kylo, it builds Kylo's threat. Something right now he's utterly lacking.

It should be self-evident how much the script needs to change because of some totally unnecessary focus on solving the 'problem' that "Rey got off the ship that's just been broken in half too easily" and "Rey doesn't lose enough". Instead of showing us Hux walking in on the slaughter in the throne room and everything we get from that (Kylo Ren seizing power, being in a position to blame Rey, Hux being seconds away from shooting Kylo Ren while he's incapacitated, etc), we have to have a whole extra action sequence, then have Kylo Ren inexplicably let her leave so she can ruin his plans minutes later, and then somehow establish how he's going to explain what the hell happened in the throne room and how he let her get away. It's convoluted as all get out.

I gave you a proper suggestion for how it could happen. It could even be merged with the Hux scene, having Kylo exert his power over Hux's insistence she be executed for killing the Supreme Leader. Kylo let's her go because he wants to show her good faith of his offer and to get her away from the Hux, who may well arrange an 'accident' for Rey if she stayed. It would even give the final mind link between them extra finality, her further expressing her choice. Nothing here is convoluted or would take excessive time.

If she came out on top, she would've got the saber.

So being torn between the dark and the light is only a thing that weakens Kylo, gotcha. Let's ignore that she went straight to the Dark Side on Ahch-To, even against Luke's warnings. Or that she went there *again* in person. Or that she started to connect on a deeper level to Kylo. Nope, she's in perfect harmony, able to force a draw against a full healthy, renewed focus, much more experienced force user. This is exactly why I say there aren't consequences for her- despite all that, she's still at the top of her game.

Why not? She's the chosen one of the Force and they're random mundanes.

That's just dishonest. They're not 'randoms' they're elite guards of the big bad. Specialised in melee combat. Plus it's not like they used any force powers in that fight anyway. You might have a point if Rey was instinctively using the Force to push them away or jump herself to safety.

Why do we need to see it? The "oh he didn't use this force power this time" complaint is as old as the hills, and the response is always the same - because his force intuition told him that if he had used it, he probably would've gotten killed. He's being attacked by like four opponents at once. It's not unreasonable to save your strength. His swordwork is his Force ability. This has always been the case.

Old complaints are often valid complaints. Sure, save your strength. But also use your advantages. And his sword work is not his (only) Force ability. We've seen him mentally attack and control people. In this we see him choke and force push (perhaps then would be a good time conserve strength, right before facing Luke Skywalker). I mean, above you explicitly call out the guards as mundanes then you try to dismiss Ren's failure to use his powers to 'conserve strength' but also he's using his Force powers to sword fight. I trust you have some source that says Force Sword Use is cheaper in Force cost then Force Choke?

I don't know where you got this idea that Ben was offering to save her friends, but he wasn't.

He's offering her rulership at his side, to rule the galaxy together. HE WANTS HER TO JOIN. That gives her leverage IF SHE JOINS. It's not an offer from him, it's a demand from her. All she has to do is make the counteroffer- Ren has clearly shown he's not going to stop it at the request of her *as is*.

[Shroom Man 777]

I do prefer the OT's explanations-less way of doing things. But for me, while the shield shtick and Starkiller stuff in TFA was grating, I think the minutia of hyperspace mechanics is sufficiently esoteric and ambiguous that I actually don't mind what was done. It's not yet Star Trek-level so yeah, on my end and on a lot of people's ends, eh. Mileage varies, yeah, but I think to some degree the perspectives of folks like us may be a bit skewered - I mean, you've got people who are pissed because the narrative discounts certain aspects of galactic warfare and sensible orders of battle for galactic governments/militaries.

Yet even Rian Johnson himself, as a casual Star Wars fan is asking such questions and doubting himself. Maybe not enough to affect their overall enjoyment of the scene, but that question is something people would ask about in their head. And they aren't the kind of people interested in reading up tech-books to explain to them why this doesn't break the setting and etc.

The question will remain stuck in people's mind when the are watching the next Star Wars movie. Which means you need to avoid a scenario where a rebellion ship is:
1. Close enough to an imperial ship
2. Have similar size difference between the new SW scenario and the one in TLJ
3. Be desperate enough to do so.

People will ask such question when they see such scenario play out again in their head, And the new SW director will be forced to either do another hyperspace ramming or use a technobabble explanation to why this isn't possible.

Psh, that can apply to anything - why can't every droid be covered in droideka fields, clone troopers have Gungan-style shield phalanxes, ships shoot proton torpedoes at each other, X-Wings capable of blasting Death Star hull chunks be used against AT-ATs, or even have the Rebels just put their bases in asteroid fields, everyone just use ion warheads for everything because those can easily knock out big warships, lol. We know the explanations for those but none of those were spelled out in the films. Jeez.

[Vympel]

No, but she could have offered it to him. IF her fear of loneliness was actually an issue for her.

I don't know what you mean. Why would she offer that? It'd just tell Ben that she's not ready.

That's my point. Their lord has just died and none of them take a moment to press an alarm button on their suit, communicator, wall etc. They rushed into battle against *two force users*. And oh look, they lost.

So what if Snoke's bodyguards were incensed at the assassination of their leader and immediately attacked rather than call someone?

Remember when the Emperor dismissed his Red Guards, who were never seen again? Clearly, he's an idiot and Return of the Jedi's plot is bending over backwards to accomodate Luke

You were the one that suggested it be in disarray, not me.

That's just the point. You're saying that the movie's plot is being 'bent over backwards' - but its not. What happened is not somehow outrageously implausible.

No time? I can think a bunch that could be cut to make room. But the fight doesn't have to be long. On the contrary, if she's shown to be *quickly* defeated by Kylo, it builds Kylo's threat. Something right now he's utterly lacking.

I don't think that's the case at all. In terms of raw power, they're clearly equals.

I gave you a proper suggestion for how it could happen. It could even be merged with the Hux scene, having Kylo exert his power over Hux's insistence she be executed for killing the Supreme Leader. Kylo let's her go because he wants to show her good faith of his offer and to get her away from the Hux, who may well arrange an 'accident' for Rey if she stayed. It would even give the final mind link between them extra finality, her further expressing her choice. Nothing here is convoluted or would take excessive time.

And what, Rey's not going to take the opportunity to tell Hux that it was actually Ben who killed the Supreme Leader? All of what you're proposing requires more dialog, more scenes, more explanations or more *sigh* plot holes to work - all of it jampacked into a final third of the movie that is already packed with plot.

So being torn between the dark and the light is only a thing that weakens Kylo, gotcha. Let's ignore that she went straight to the Dark Side on Ahch-To, even against Luke's warnings. Or that she went there *again* in person. Or that she started to connect on a deeper level to Kylo. Nope, she's in perfect harmony, able to force a draw against a full healthy, renewed focus, much more experienced force user. This is exactly why I say there aren't consequences for her- despite all that, she's still at the top of her game.

Rey was never 'torn between the dark and the light' like Ben was. Luke wasn't in the OT either. She's the hero of the story, she's allowed to be more resilient than Ben.

That's just dishonest. They're not 'randoms' they're elite guards of the big bad. Specialised in melee combat. Plus it's not like they used any force powers in that fight anyway. You might have a point if Rey was instinctively using the Force to push them away or jump herself to safety.

What's dishonest about it? Elite mooks are still mooks. They're not supporting cast, they're stuntmen. 'Specialised in melee combat' against one of the most powerful Force sensitives in the entire galaxy? In the Star Wars universe graveyards would be full of those sorts of specialists.

Old complaints are often valid complaints. Sure, save your strength. But also use your advantages. And his sword work is not his (only) Force ability. We've seen him mentally attack and control people. In this we see him choke and force push (perhaps then would be a good time conserve strength, right before facing Luke Skywalker). I mean, above you explicitly call out the guards as mundanes then you try to dismiss Ren's failure to use his powers to 'conserve strength' but also he's using his Force powers to sword fight. I trust you have some source that says Force Sword Use is cheaper in Force cost then Force Choke?

Yes, they're eight mundanes. That's ... a lot. As for having a source that says simply using the Force to duel (i.e. totally passive) as opposed to using telekinesis, it's self-evident as all get out and amply backed up by basically every single fight we've ever seen. Like ever. Using your lightsaber is the default. Not powers.

In terms of movie-making, it's just not a valid complaint, and as the history of duels has shown us, express powers are used sparingly if at all. If as a director you have to choose between a fight that's easily decided and a rousing duel that actually shows you a back-to-back lightsaber fight with your protagonists doing awesome moves and dodging blows with their backs turned and lightsabers flashing and what not, it isn't even a question as to what you're going to prefer.

He's offering her rulership at his side, to rule the galaxy together. HE WANTS HER TO JOIN. That gives her leverage IF SHE JOINS. It's not an offer from him, it's a demand from her. All she has to do is make the counteroffer- Ren has clearly shown he's not going to stop it at the request of her *as is*.

That would mean she's still holding on, and is being insincere.

[ray245]

I do prefer the OT's explanations-less way of doing things. But for me, while the shield shtick and Starkiller stuff in TFA was grating, I think the minutia of hyperspace mechanics is sufficiently esoteric and ambiguous that I actually don't mind what was done. It's not yet Star Trek-level so yeah, on my end and on a lot of people's ends, eh. Mileage varies, yeah, but I think to some degree the perspectives of folks like us may be a bit skewered - I mean, you've got people who are pissed because the narrative discounts certain aspects of galactic warfare and sensible orders of battle for galactic governments/militaries.

Yet even Rian Johnson himself, as a casual Star Wars fan is asking such questions and doubting himself. Maybe not enough to affect their overall enjoyment of the scene, but that question is something people would ask about in their head. And they aren't the kind of people interested in reading up tech-books to explain to them why this doesn't break the setting and etc.

The question will remain stuck in people's mind when the are watching the next Star Wars movie. Which means you need to avoid a scenario where a rebellion ship is:
1. Close enough to an imperial ship
2. Have similar size difference between the new SW scenario and the one in TLJ
3. Be desperate enough to do so.

People will ask such question when they see such scenario play out again in their head, And the new SW director will be forced to either do another hyperspace ramming or use a technobabble explanation to why this isn't possible.

Psh, that can apply to anything - why can't every droid be covered in droideka fields, clone troopers have Gungan-style shield phalanxes, ships shoot proton torpedoes at each other, X-Wings capable of blasting Death Star hull chunks be used against AT-ATs, or even have the Rebels just put their bases in asteroid fields, everyone just use ion warheads for everything because those can easily knock out big warships, lol. We know the explanations for those but none of those were spelled out in the films. Jeez.

Because those aren't a pivotal scene that will be stuck in people's heads?

[Shroom Man 777]

Yet even Rian Johnson himself, as a casual Star Wars fan is asking such questions and doubting himself. Maybe not enough to affect their overall enjoyment of the scene, but that question is something people would ask about in their head. And they aren't the kind of people interested in reading up tech-books to explain to them why this doesn't break the setting and etc.

The question will remain stuck in people's mind when the are watching the next Star Wars movie. Which means you need to avoid a scenario where a rebellion ship is:
1. Close enough to an imperial ship
2. Have similar size difference between the new SW scenario and the one in TLJ
3. Be desperate enough to do so.

People will ask such question when they see such scenario play out again in their head, And the new SW director will be forced to either do another hyperspace ramming or use a technobabble explanation to why this isn't possible.

Psh, that can apply to anything - why can't every droid be covered in droideka fields, clone troopers have Gungan-style shield phalanxes, ships shoot proton torpedoes at each other, X-Wings capable of blasting Death Star hull chunks be used against AT-ATs, or even have the Rebels just put their bases in asteroid fields, everyone just use ion warheads for everything because those can easily knock out big warships, lol. We know the explanations for those but none of those were spelled out in the films. Jeez.

Because those aren't a pivotal scene that will be stuck in people's heads?

Psssh, being incredibly awesome-looking is IMO a great reason to momentarily allow such things that are chancy and unusual and unlikely to happen barring several unusual variables and circumstances lining up juuuust right.

[ray245]

Psssh, being incredibly awesome-looking is IMO a great reason to momentarily allow such things that are chancy and unusual and unlikely to happen barring several unusual variables and circumstances lining up juuuust right.

A good scene should not stand on its own, otherwise a movie will simply end up as nothing more than a series of clips.

Because it's quite easy for any writer to end up in a similar position as Ep 8.

[Shroom Man 777]

A good scene should not stand on its own, otherwise a movie will simply end up as nothing more than a series of clips.

Because it's quite easy for any writer to end up in a similar position as Ep 8.

That scene's supposed technobabble contradictions to supposed hyperspace and hyperdrive mechanics that are in themselves technobabble conventions in the first place don't make it "stand on its own" IMO. Jeez, by that logic, the proton torpedo's function as a guided warhead capable of high-G maneuvering in the tight confines and curvatures of the exhaust port, will make it stand on its own cause we don't ever see any other similar smart weaponries in SW except maybe in the ROTS orbital battle with the buzz droids... and in that case why have it deploy choppy robbits instead of freaking gigaton-warheads to vaporize Anakin? Jeez.

[Kojiro]

I don't know what you mean. Why would she offer that? It'd just tell Ben that she's not ready.

Because they're her friends, they're the closest thing to family she has and as TRR said, her tragic backstory is about being alone. Her dark side vision of fear was her alone until the end. All your doing is pointing out that yes, Rey's 'tragic backstory' doesn't mean shit because when it matters- when her friends are dying- she just goes 'nup, I'd rather try and fight Kylo Ren'. Almost as if she knew the Raddus was going to ram them, saving her friends.

So what if Snoke's bodyguards were incensed at the assassination of their leader and immediately attacked rather than call someone?

They're ultra disciplined, elite guards. Surely, surely they have a button or a comlink or something to say 'Hey the Supreme Leader is in trouble'. It would beggar belief that such elite soldiers would be so stupid.

Remember when the Emperor dismissed his Red Guards, who were never seen again? Clearly, he's an idiot and Return of the Jedi's plot is bending over backwards to accomodate Luke

He was arrogant, yes. But he dismissed them. That's a flaw I can attribute to the hubris of Palpatine. But then it doesn't go so well for Luke now does it? The Emperor dies and so does his father. It's a win, sure- third movie in a trilogy- but it's not perfect. More over, Luke's taken his fair share of knocks up to this point. In Jedi alone he gets shot in the hand after he fails to rescue Han. He gets knocked off his speeder bike and captured by ewoks.

That's just the point. You're saying that the movie's plot is being 'bent over backwards' - but its not. What happened is not somehow outrageously implausible.

Her successes just stack and stack and stack. The plot bends somewhat to every hero- it's how much it bends that matters to me.

I don't think that's the case at all. In terms of raw power, they're clearly equals.

Sure. But one of them has had years of training and is focused. The other has no training and is in turmoil. After all, it was inner turmoil that excused Kylo losing to Rey the first time. Now it's reversed and... they're equals?

And what, Rey's not going to take the opportunity to tell Hux that it was actually Ben who killed the Supreme Leader? All of what you're proposing requires more dialog, more scenes, more explanations or more *sigh* plot holes to work - all of it jampacked into a final third of the movie that is already packed with plot.

The beauty or writing it- and of depicting her turmoil- is that we'd get to write it where she chooses not to. I don't know, maybe she thinks Kylo can be redeemed and doesn't want to burn him? And yes, any addition requires you know ,adding stuff. It'd barely be an extra scene, no more than a minute. And there are no shortage of minutes you could cut from this film without hurting it at all. But throw your plot holes at me and I'll see if I can answer them.

Rey was never 'torn between the dark and the light' like Ben was. Luke wasn't in the OT either. She's the hero of the story, she's allowed to be more resilient than Ben.

Except she is. That's exactly Luke's point, she goes straight to the Dark, she doesn't even try to resist. And then she goes there for real. She is clearly drawn to the dark, just as she's clearly draw (or perhaps linked) to Kylo (could even be that link is responsible for her pull that way). But to say she's not supposed to be feeling the pull when she explicitly seeks it out *twice*?

That's just dishonest. They're not 'randoms' they're elite guards of the big bad. Specialised in melee combat. Plus it's not like they used any force powers in that fight anyway. You might have a point if Rey was instinctively using the Force to push them away or jump herself to safety.

What's dishonest about it? Elite mooks are still mooks. They're not supporting cast, they're stuntmen. 'Specialised in melee combat' against one of the most powerful Force sensitives in the entire galaxy? In the Star Wars universe graveyards would be full of those sorts of specialists.

Perhaps we have a different concept of 'mook' vs 'elites'. And yeah, she's a force sensitive- I would scarcely call her a Force user at this point. Like three days ago she fought off two desert thugs. Today she's fending of elite guards. And the more you say 'they're stuntmen, not supporting cast' the more you essentially say the plot is helping her. They're no threat to her, she's a named character!

Yes, they're eight mundanes. That's ... a lot. As for having a source that says simply using the Force to duel (i.e. totally passive) as opposed to using telekinesis, it's self-evident as all get out and amply backed up by basically every single fight we've ever seen. Like ever. Using your lightsaber is the default. Not powers.

Is it? Count Dooku was never shy about using his powers against Obi Wan and Anakin in either fight. Palpatine is more than happy to use powers against his attackers and Windu. Vader happily uses powers to tear apart the guys with the Death Star plans. I think what you'll find is actually *Light Side* users tend to focus on sword technique (though not exclusively) because they're not supposed to use the Force (directly) to attack. Dark Side users have no such compunction about throwing things at you, throwing you, throwing lightning or just choking a person. They're quite happy to directly use the Force to attack someone, with Maul being the exception.

That would mean she's still holding on, and is being insincere.

It's still an option. One that should, perhaps, be entertained before trying to start a duel with him in the heart of the enemy stronghold. It's not like she knows the ship is about to be hit and her friends will be saved.

[ray245]

That scene's supposed technobabble contradictions to supposed hyperspace and hyperdrive mechanics that are in themselves technobabble conventions in the first place don't make it "stand on its own" IMO. Jeez, by that logic, the proton torpedo's function as a guided warhead capable of high-G maneuvering in the tight confines and curvatures of the exhaust port, will make it stand on its own cause we don't ever see any other similar smart weaponries in SW except maybe in the ROTS orbital battle with the buzz droids... and in that case why have it deploy choppy robbits instead of freaking gigaton-warheads to vaporize Anakin? Jeez.

Because those aren't used as a form of Deus-Ex-Machina? Hyperspace ramming is effectively a get-out-of-jail card for the heroes in a seemingly hopeless situation.

[Shroom Man 777]

That scene's supposed technobabble contradictions to supposed hyperspace and hyperdrive mechanics that are in themselves technobabble conventions in the first place don't make it "stand on its own" IMO. Jeez, by that logic, the proton torpedo's function as a guided warhead capable of high-G maneuvering in the tight confines and curvatures of the exhaust port, will make it stand on its own cause we don't ever see any other similar smart weaponries in SW except maybe in the ROTS orbital battle with the buzz droids... and in that case why have it deploy choppy robbits instead of freaking gigaton-warheads to vaporize Anakin? Jeez.

Because those aren't used as a form of Deus-Ex-Machina? Hyperspace ramming is effectively a get-out-of-jail card for the heroes in a seemingly hopeless situation.

You could say the same thing for any other ramming thing if presented so dramatically, except this looked prettier, had a bit more oomph and involved people's vaunted hyperspace mechanics technobabble. I mean, if I had it my way, I'd chuck Jar Jar and C3PO and all other annoying protocol droids into A-Wing cockpits and have them kill all SSDs

Your own objections are based on how it was narratively and thematically and dramatically presented, not even in the actual event and capability or string of circumstances required for it to occur. So, thanks for showing me how some people ARE more immersed in theme and story and scene rather than actual technical minutia

[Crazedwraith]

Yes, they're eight mundanes. That's ... a lot. As for having a source that says simply using the Force to duel (i.e. totally passive) as opposed to using telekinesis, it's self-evident as all get out and amply backed up by basically every single fight we've ever seen. Like ever. Using your lightsaber is the default. Not powers.

In terms of movie-making, it's just not a valid complaint, and as the history of duels has shown us, express powers are used sparingly if at all. If as a director you have to choose between a fight that's easily decided and a rousing duel that actually shows you a back-to-back lightsaber fight with your protagonists doing awesome moves and dodging blows with their backs turned and lightsabers flashing and what not, it isn't even a question as to what you're going to prefer.

Seems to me that exactly when you need to use your powers. To avoid fighting eight people at once. Force jump, force push, force lightning, force choke, we've seen them all used mid-combat. (possibly force speed as well if you believe some TPM analyses )

Ren should be chucking people about, zapping people, leaping about, so he can fight people saber to techno-amphistaff-thingie one on one, one at a time. Instead of having just have two or three people coincidentally stab him in away he can block it with one sword.

As to movie-making, you don't think that couldn't be made a visually interesting, exciting, dramatic scene? I find that hard to believe.

[ray245]

You could say the same thing for any other ramming thing if presented so dramatically, except this looked prettier, had a bit more oomph and involved people's vaunted hyperspace mechanics technobabble. I mean, if I had it my way, I'd chuck Jar Jar and C3PO and all other annoying protocol droids into A-Wing cockpits and have them kill all SSDs

Looking prettier doesn't help if this makes the scene feels out of place with the rest of Star Wars. Generally speaking, the characters have never been reliant on technology alone to get them out of a nearly hopeless situation.

Death Star approaching? Well, the rebels are set up to take advantage of its weakness, making full use of their daring pilots and imperial overconfidence. Empire attacking Hoth? A near-invulnerable AT-AT? Well, exploit its weakness by using Tow-cables. Caught in a Trap at Endor with Superlaser destroying ships? Well, engage in point-blank range to make it difficult for Imperials to aim.

Technology has never been an easy get-out tool in previous Star Wars. I mean sure, the Rebels could have use hyper-space ramming at Endor, but they didn't because it would have been too easy from a narrative standpoint.

Your own objections are based on how it was narratively and thematically and dramatically presented, not even in the actual event and capability or string of circumstances required for it to occur. So, thanks for showing me how some people ARE more immersed in theme and story and scene rather than actual technical minutia

Of course not. I think most people's complaints about that scene are from a narrative, thematic and dramatic standpoint. Star Wars in the past has always been very different from franchises like Star Trek in how they resolve problems faced by the protagonists. SW was using technology like how a movie set in modern day would use technology.

Instead of an out-of-a-blue technological solution, we saw people make full use of simple ingenious plans to defeat the enemy. The Endor stolen shuttle plan is a plan that can work in any technological context. You know, steal an enemy truck and use it to sneak past the guards? That's an old trick that has nothing to do with technology. An extended chase sequence with a careful aiming to defeat the enemy? That's something you can do in a WW2 movie.

I'm saying the new directors are being more narratively lazy by over-relying on technology. The more you use technology as a get-out-tool, the more reliant other writers have to be as well.

[Sidewinder]

Random thought: Would it have been better or worse if Luke's mistake had been the opposite of what is was in canon? Instead of having a moment of weakness and being tempted to strike Ben down when he sensed the darkness, if he'd resisted and tried too long and too hard to redeem/pull a Vader on him?

That would be far more in-character with the Luke Skywalker we saw in the original movies. We may then complain about how Luke is an idiot for letting Kylo Ren live to commit mass murder, like Batman letting the Joker live after the latter REPEATEDLY committed terror attacks that killed hundreds; but we will NOT be complaining, "That's a 'Luke Skywalker' in name only!"

[Shroom Man 777]

You could say the same thing for any other ramming thing if presented so dramatically, except this looked prettier, had a bit more oomph and involved people's vaunted hyperspace mechanics technobabble. I mean, if I had it my way, I'd chuck Jar Jar and C3PO and all other annoying protocol droids into A-Wing cockpits and have them kill all SSDs

Looking prettier doesn't help if this makes the scene feels out of place with the rest of Star Wars. Generally speaking, the characters have never been reliant on technology alone to get them out of a nearly hopeless situation.

Death Star approaching? Well, the rebels are set up to take advantage of its weakness, making full use of their daring pilots and imperial overconfidence. Empire attacking Hoth? A near-invulnerable AT-AT? Well, exploit its weakness by using Tow-cables. Caught in a Trap at Endor with Superlaser destroying ships? Well, engage in point-blank range to make it difficult for Imperials to aim.

Technology has never been an easy get-out tool in previous Star Wars. I mean sure, the Rebels could have use hyper-space ramming at Endor, but they didn't because it would have been too easy from a narrative standpoint.

Your own objections are based on how it was narratively and thematically and dramatically presented, not even in the actual event and capability or string of circumstances required for it to occur. So, thanks for showing me how some people ARE more immersed in theme and story and scene rather than actual technical minutia

Of course not. I think most people's complaints about that scene are from a narrative, thematic and dramatic standpoint. Star Wars in the past has always been very different from franchises like Star Trek in how they resolve problems faced by the protagonists. SW was using technology like how a movie set in modern day would use technology.

Instead of an out-of-a-blue technological solution, we saw people make full use of simple ingenious plans to defeat the enemy. The Endor stolen shuttle plan is a plan that can work in any technological context. You know, steal an enemy truck and use it to sneak past the guards? That's an old trick that has nothing to do with technology. An extended chase sequence with a careful aiming to defeat the enemy? That's something you can do in a WW2 movie.

I'm saying the new directors are being more narratively lazy by over-relying on technology. The more you use technology as a get-out-tool, the more reliant other writers have to be as well.

How is a ship hitting another ship something that can't be done in any other film then? Everything from age of sail to WW1 to WW2 to 9/11 has "RAMMING SPEED" still viable, no different from your sneaking into a base with a stolen truck example. Yet we all know that stolen trucks and ship rammings and icebergs and 9/11s and jet fuels and steel beams only work within certain circumstances. Jesus Christ, the only thing different is because "hyperdrives lol" admit it. Your own examples and such can be used against your own points.

You can't compare it to Trek scenes since there wasn't any uttered technobabbling involved in it at all. Shit, talking about shields, exhaust ports, Lambda codes, even hyperdrive repairs involved more jargon. And it didn't even resolve the overall situation despite your claims of an "easy get out," sure it did significant damage to Snoke's ship, but what it did was just halt the firing at the transports momentarily, the FO weren't defeated, they were still able to deploy forces and were still a threat in terms of orbital bombardment which was why the Resistance survivors had to activate shields. If the ramming was the end of the show and after that was a yaaay great escape, sure your claims of an easy out would be better. But aside from halting the Supremacy's slaughter of the transports, the FO were still able to just continue on and corner them and be on the cusp of killing the fuck out of them had it not been for Luke and the Falcon.

Non-hyper ramming was featured in ROTJ. The Executor went down from that. But the fight still continued on. Same thing here, except the ramming was done involving hyper-stuff and a huge kamikaze ship, instead of a super tiny ship and weakened shields. Jeez.

[ray245]

How is a ship hitting another ship something that can't be done in any other film then? Everything from age of sail to WW1 to WW2 to 9/11 has "RAMMING SPEED" still viable, no different from your sneaking into a base with a stolen truck example. Yet we all know that stolen trucks and ship rammings and icebergs and 9/11s and jet fuels and steel beams only work within certain circumstances. Jesus Christ, the only thing different is because "hyperdrives lol" admit it. Your own examples and such can be used against your own points.

What happens when a smaller ship ram into a much bigger ship? It usually don't end well for them. Neither is one ship somehow able to sink an entire fleet via ramming.

You can't compare it to Trek scenes since there wasn't any uttered technobabbling involved in it at all. Shit, talking about shields, exhaust ports, Lambda codes, even hyperdrive repairs involved more jargon. And it didn't even resolve the overall situation despite your claims of an "easy get out," sure it did significant damage to Snoke's ship, but what it did was just halt the firing at the transports momentarily, the FO weren't defeated, they were still able to deploy forces and were still a threat in terms of orbital bombardment which was why the Resistance survivors had to activate shields. If the ramming was the end of the show and after that was a yaaay great escape, sure your claims of an easy out would be better. But aside from halting the Supremacy's slaughter of the transports, the FO were still able to just continue on and corner them and be on the cusp of killing the fuck out of them had it not been for Luke and the Falcon.

There might not be any spoken techno-babble, but it requires a series of checklist for that to happen that it might as well be technobabble. Because the next time the resistance/rebels 2.0 are in a spot of bother, there will be audience thinking "why can't they ram the enemy?". Then someone is going to provide a distracting explanation that upsets the pacing of the scene. Hyperspace raming makes depiction of warfare in Star Wars more needlessly complicated than it needs to be. The First Order did survive, but their ship was cut in half. They might be able to evacuate the ship, but there is no indication that the ship was reparable in any way.

SW in the OT has technical jargon that are easily understandable by the average modern audience. You need codes to get pass security. That's practically ancient history! The Rebel Alliance was a much better bunch of protagonists because they were never depicted so passively. It was an "easy get-out" because the resistance didn't have to make any effort to save themselves other than pressing a simple "self-destruct" button. What did the Rebel alliance do when a planet-killer is coming to their base? Hell, Leia even bring the Death Star to the base because they want to mount an attack.

Where's the innovative spirit that we saw in the Rebel Alliance? Where's the can-do spirit that motivated the Rebel Alliance into pulling daring and risky attacks against the empire? We saw none of that because Johnson made the Resistance/Rebel 2.0 so dependent on technology to get them out of danger. There really wasn't any easy "get-out-of-jail-button" for the Rebels in the OT.

Non-hyper ramming was featured in ROTJ. The Executor went down from that. But the fight still continued on. Same thing here, except the ramming was done involving hyper-stuff and a huge kamikaze ship, instead of a super tiny ship and weakened shields. Jeez.

And we saw Rebels didn't simply ram the Super-star destroyer from the get-go. We know that the Executor was in a very sustained gunfight with the Rebel fleet, and we saw the shields being taken out before raming could even work. And the ram itself didn't destroy the Executor. It could have survived if it was not drawn to the gravity well of the Death Star.

It wasn't a one-stop magic solution to get the Rebels out of trouble. What got the Rebels out of trouble was a whole series of ingenious and risky plan culminating together to achieve the destruction of the death star. The Rebels didn't need to ram the Executor to achieve victory. Blowing the bridge by conventional means would still work because we can see the Rebels having sufficient firepower to do so.

In TLJ, Johnson wrote himself into a corner where there are no alternative means to get the Rebels out of their tough spot, other than to make use of a Deus Ex Machina. Just because it's beautifully shot doesn't mean it isn't weak from a narrative standpoint. Imagine if EP 8 was merely a novel, how would the raming scene plays out? Without the aid of visual storytelling, the scene would have been quite jarring.

[Kojiro]

As to movie-making, you don't think that couldn't be made a visually interesting, exciting, dramatic scene? I find that hard to believe.

Of course it could. Audiences would love to see full on force user combat.

Of course that puts the director into a pickle. If you have Ren doing it, you can justify it as he's been trained, he's led operations before, he's helped subjugate worlds (like Rose's). But what about Rey? She's powerful, but raw. She can pull stuff (that's actually the only external force power we've seen) but can she channel the Force to speed herself up? To leap great distances? Can she use the force while it guides her hand to defend? And of course, we find ourselves thinking that some force users most certainly can. Most of them are quite experienced or have titles like 'Master' though.

I think, it'd be really great if we got a decent explanation on the Force interaction with people. For example, there does appear to be something going on when Qui-Gon fights Maul, something that almost resembles him running low on Force or something, in the way he meditates in spare moments while Maul stalks. And of course when it comes to it, Maul gets a shot in that allows him to follow up with a run through. It very much struck me as Qui-Gon being 'out of mana' so to speak- nothing left to defend while Maul still had some (though perhaps he exhausted the last of it knocking Obi-Wan in the hole, thus had nothing left to sense Obi Wan's move). Same as Windu absorbing Palpatine's lightning- it was clearly straining him. I am of course just throwing ideas out there for mechanics, but I doubt you could harmonise it between all the various showings.

But I do wish we had some idea where things ranked. Vympel says it's obvious that using the Force to sword fight is 'cheaper' on energy than a TK push, but I see no reason why that'd be the case. One is reading the intentions of your attacker(s), perhaps even seeing the future with precog somewhat and then guiding your body, while the other is just a hefty shove. I genuinely don't know which is more cost effective, per se. I could see Jedi/Sith refraining from using the more obvious powers, and focusing on swordplay because most of the other powers seem to be contestable- external. Using the Force on oneself is perhaps harder to stop (if it can be) than external attacks, and the 'tip' of the attack is the lightsaber- not the Force. Like walking AT-ATs under the shield- you can't directly, not easily anyway, use the Force against another Force user of similar power, so you focus it on yourself and let the lightsaber be the external locus of your attack.

[Dass.Kapital]

Hello!

Just throwing something in while it strikes me.

Back in the days of the old "West End" games SW, they had the two aspect of the Force working kind of like 'Positive' and 'Negative' feed back loops.

With the Dark Side? When you used DS points? You got two back for the price of one. Need to force choke some one? Sure, expend a DSPoint and inflict damage PLUS you get two more, for free, in return! The down side being that eventually a character 'Self Dark immolated' at a certain number of points and was taken away by the DM. Have fun rolling up a new character as the now, hideously evil baby eating, furniture chewing, phsycopath ex-character/new NPC starts trying to go complete murder Hobo on everything the party has built up/planned.

With the Light Side? You get one Bright Point for every 'heroic' (DM caveate for a reward for doing something 'SW' heroic) or were stated as a valid reward as written within the adventure scenario. As well as 'Resplenish' spent points back to your current level at one point a day with X hourse of meditiation.. (Much like a certain fantasy game trope for their wizards)

See how such diffrent mechanics effect narrative directions in the role playing game?

The Dark Sider just splurges.Keeps getting DSpoints hand over fist and eventually descends completly into Darkside phycosis.
The Light Side? Spend their days being all 'Ohmmm' and trying REALY hard at just keeping their Light Side up and working.

Much cheers to all.

[Patroklos]

The Executir really had nothing to do with the plot of RotJ. They just had this cool model, everyone thought it was the end of the franchise, so it's fate was sealed. Luckily they had enough self control to not do it 10 minutes into ROTJ, or ten minutes into TESB for that matter.

Whether it blew up or not, the movie ends the same way.

And it's so odd TLJ defenders keep bringing it up as if the fandom has just given that whole sequence a pass. It's been the center of arguements regarding in universe plausibility and out of universe cinematic critique since the movie opened. It's one of the sci-fi moments that birthed and defined this sort of world building fidelity monitoring.

They definetly contrivanced their way to Executors demise, they just did a much better job of it. And since the exercise wasn't in service to a bland and unengaging plot, nor was the plot utterly depending on it, the viewer isn't as keenly aware of the contrivances up front. But as a matter of fact it was not the same set of circumstances, there really is no in universe technical comparison.

[CaoCao]

The Executir really had nothing to do with the plot of RotJ. They just had this cool model, everyone thought it was the end of the franchise, so it's fate was sealed. Luckily they had enough self control to not do it 10 minutes into ROTJ, or ten minutes into TESB for that matter.

Whether it blew up or not, the movie ends the same way.

And it's so odd TLJ defenders keep bringing it up as if the fandom has just given that whole sequence a pass. It's been the center of arguements regarding in universe plausibility and out of universe cinematic critique since the movie opened. It's one of the sci-fi moments that birthed and defined this sort of world building fidelity monitoring.

They definetly contrivanced their way to Executors demise, they just did a much better job of it. And since the exercise wasn't in service to a bland and unengaging plot, nor was the plot utterly depending on it, the viewer isn't as keenly aware of the contrivances up front. But as a matter of fact it was not the same set of circumstances, there really is no in universe technical comparison.

Exactly. Not only the fall of the Executor was not something that changed the result for the heroes, but they made it quite consistent. First Ackbar orders to concntrate fire on the SSD, then we see a rebel fighter destroying the shield lobe, then an imperial officer informs the captain of the Executer that they lost bridge shields, and finally, the figther spinning out of control crashes on the unprotected bridge. Only questions I see is why it didn't have anyone taking the reins of it from a secondary bridge, and why it fell to the death star. But it didn't break the setting, it didn't make ramming a thing.

Another strange bit about TLJ, is that they made an explicit defense on animal rights, which is a fine thing to do, but they forgot to rescue the enslaved kids, that would probably be punished for losing the animals they were tending to.

[Patroklos]

And I actually have issues with the plausibility of some of those steps, but they went through the effort of put them in there and in total they create a logical chain of events for the audience in the moment. Also since its the first capital ship engagement (if we think one side wasn't still not engaging), it basically gets to set the rules I will note most of the arguments about the destruction of the Executor follow the same line of critique we have in this movie. "If they could do it that way then, what are the implications for the universe including the parts of the story we have already seen?"

Again its hilarious watching the nuWARS fanbois forget the DECADES of nerd arguments about was that a communications dome or a shield generator? Did the Rebel fleet actual have the firepower to concentrate and take down the Executors shields even though the thing out masses the whole Rebel fleet several times over? Is it a local burn through mechanic for the shields? Was it a lucky series of events and flaws that lead to a HMS Hood in space? Can fighters somehow fly through shields? Why isn't the Empire doing this back to the Rebels? On and on and on. this STILL goes on.

This longevity of scrutiny won't happen here because these POS films will be forgotten in five years just like the prequels. They will probably fall prey to a reboot in ten. Just some anecdotes we laugh at while continuing to buy OT products like these things never happened. But for now while its still enjoying its brief moment in the sun this movie should at the very least get the same treatment as the OT scrutiny wise. And the OT did get this exact same treatment.

Another strange bit about TLJ, is that they made an explicit defense on animal rights, which is a fine thing to do, but they forgot to rescue the enslaved kids, that would probably be punished for losing the animals they were tending to.

Exactly. They have no idea what they are doing. ZOOM! CRASH! WHAM! LENS FLARE! CUT!

[The Romulan Republic]

Random thought: Would it have been better or worse if Luke's mistake had been the opposite of what is was in canon? Instead of having a moment of weakness and being tempted to strike Ben down when he sensed the darkness, if he'd resisted and tried too long and too hard to redeem/pull a Vader on him?

That would be far more in-character with the Luke Skywalker we saw in the original movies. We may then complain about how Luke is an idiot for letting Kylo Ren live to commit mass murder, like Batman letting the Joker live after the latter REPEATEDLY committed terror attacks that killed hundreds; but we will NOT be complaining, "That's a 'Luke Skywalker' in name only!"

On the other hand, it could be taken as a repudiation of RotJ's theme of redemption, if it had been done the other way. Though the film already kind of is that, since it seems to close the door on a Kylo redemption pretty thoroughly.

Ultimately, Luke's story is a sad but not uncommon one- of an idealistic young man who lost that idealism as he grew older (though he seems to have ultimately regained it in the end, somewhat). But it would have had more weight, I think, if we'd seen more of New Canon Luke's journey between RotJ and the moment when he was tempted to strike his nephew down preemptively.

Edit: It occurs to me that there is a certain symmetry between Anakin's fall and Kylo's.

In Anakin's case, Mace's decision to execute Palpatine on the spot despite his seeming helplessness because "He's too dangerous to be left alive" is what pushed Anakin over the edge.

In Kylo's case, it was Luke's impulse to execute him preemptively because he was deemed too dangerous that lead to Kylo's fall.

One is a response to a direct attack, the other indirect, but there's a noticeable similarity between the situations.

The main difference is that Windu was much, much more justified in making that call than Luke appears to have been, based on the circumstances.

[APlayerHater]

Hello!

Just throwing something in while it strikes me.

Back in the days of the old "West End" games SW, they had the two aspect of the Force working kind of like 'Positive' and 'Negative' feed back loops.

With the Dark Side? When you used DS points? You got two back for the price of one. Need to force choke some one? Sure, expend a DSPoint and inflict damage PLUS you get two more, for free, in return! The down side being that eventually a character 'Self Dark immolated' at a certain number of points and was taken away by the DM. Have fun rolling up a new character as the now, hideously evil baby eating, furniture chewing, phsycopath ex-character/new NPC starts trying to go complete murder Hobo on everything the party has built up/planned.

With the Light Side? You get one Bright Point for every 'heroic' (DM caveate for a reward for doing something 'SW' heroic) or were stated as a valid reward as written within the adventure scenario. As well as 'Resplenish' spent points back to your current level at one point a day with X hourse of meditiation.. (Much like a certain fantasy game trope for their wizards)

See how such diffrent mechanics effect narrative directions in the role playing game?

The Dark Sider just splurges.Keeps getting DSpoints hand over fist and eventually descends completly into Darkside phycosis.
The Light Side? Spend their days being all 'Ohmmm' and trying REALY hard at just keeping their Light Side up and working.

Much cheers to all.

Nah, if someone's strong in the dark side the force creates a light side being to opposed them. Because the force is evil and wants to just watch people fight forever. It doesn't matter if you kill Rey or Kylo, a new force avatar will just spring into existence apropos of nothing. That kid with the broom was probably given the force powers of Luke and Snoke combined after the events of TLJ.

Kreia was right.

[Ave Dominus Nox]

Nah, if someone's strong in the dark side the force creates a light side being to opposed them. Because the force is evil and wants to just watch people fight forever. It doesn't matter if you kill Rey or Kylo, a new force avatar will just spring into existence apropos of nothing. That kid with the broom was probably given the force powers of Luke and Snoke combined after the events of TLJ.

Kreia was right.

I guess she was, wasn't she. The Force is no longer a force for good (rim-shot) that's corrupted by the baddies, but an uncaring "blue and orange morality" god that's willing to watch the galaxy burn for the sake of balance.

As for the use of Force powers in fights it seems to me that it should be far harder to use them against another Force user than a non-force user. In order to directly strike another Force user you have to break their passive and/or active defenses, like Maul did against Kenobi in TPM (force push) or Dooku did again against Kenobi in RotS (force choke) or have another attack your opponent isn't capable of defending against like Force Lightning which requires a lightsaber or tutaminis. Against a normal being you don't require that.