How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

[Q99]

And Anakin and Luke both fail and make massive mistakes during their time of learning. Anakin was said to have never completed a pod-race. Luke almost got shot countless times. Both Luke and Anakin underestimate the enemy and got their hands cut off. Did the force make it easy for them to pick up stuff? Possibly, but they still fail during their learning process.

Rey got captured by Kylo's force paralysis, required multiple tries to mindtrick a guard after picking up how to from Kylo, and then in the final fight, she got thrown into a tree (which is why Finn had to fight Kylo), then did poorly enough she was pushed to the edge of a cliff and only Kylo giving her room let her push forward (and btw, the wound and reduction in power does make fighting while retreating much harder than it should be, he couldn't break contact and then regroup and own again).


Yea, Luke and Anakin get their hands cut off... against very different villains than Kylo. Healthy Darth Vader or Tyrannus > wounded Kylo Ren, both in absolute terms and thematically. Rey isn't mirroring their plot arc, but more-so than that, Kylo is very explicitly a break from prior villain's plot arcs, being a rival apprentice and conflicted darksider rather than a full Sith off the bat.

Because "guided by the force" doesn't remove the fact that it's just an easy cop-out for character growth and learning? It's watching characters fall and learning to pick themselves up from the floor again that makes drama interesting for many viewers. We saw the learning pains of Luke in trying to unlearn what he learned. It's a nice character development to follow.

What're Rey's struggles?

*Points above* Rey got taken down by Kylo multiple times.

So, tell me again about how you haven't seen the movie? Because you're yet another person who leaves out, like, half a dozen scenes.

[Kojiro]

We saw her there at the start of the movie, that's where she works!

In fairness, it's more like she worked there at some point. She explicitly says that not only has she never flown the Falcon before, but that it has not flown at all in years. It's not like she's in it every other day.

Finn shot down those fighters- remember that bit about Finn being a great shot?- with only the last one being a duo effort and pretty lucky.

Finn shot down a fighter, before the gun locks up. The second fighter was 99% her lining up the gun, which is either staggeringly lucky or incredibly skilled.

And to be fair, in her first attempt she shoots down three TIEs with a single blast on that same cannon remarking 'Oh I like this!' heavily implying she's not some gunnery veteran.

Also, when Kylo comes, Rey shoots off like, 8 shots that miss. Not dodge, not blocked, miss. Of the ton of shots she fires, he only has to block three or four.

That likely has to do with the fact she just 'met' Kylo Ren in a force vision like a minute ago, and we know quite well that rattled her. Imagine waking from a nightmare, going outside for some fresh air and running into the very thing you saw in your dream? Basically her accuracy against the stormtroopers is excellent- she out shoots them. It drops (understandably) when she encounters her literal nightmare.

[ray245]

Rey got captured by Kylo's force paralysis, required multiple tries to mindtrick a guard after picking up how to from Kylo, and then in the final fight, she got thrown into a tree (which is why Finn had to fight Kylo), then did poorly enough she was pushed to the edge of a cliff and only Kylo giving her room let her push forward (and btw, the wound and reduction in power does make fighting while retreating much harder than it should be, he couldn't break contact and then regroup and own again).

Those aren't major mistakes in any sense. In comparison to Luke and Anakin, those are fairly minor mistakes. It's like saying Anakin losing his lightsaber during the chase is a major mistake.

Yea, Luke and Anakin get their hands cut off... against very different villains than Kylo. Healthy Darth Vader or Tyrannus > wounded Kylo Ren, both in absolute terms and thematically. Rey isn't mirroring their plot arc, but more-so than that, Kylo is very explicitly a break from prior villain's plot arcs, being a rival apprentice and conflicted darksider rather than a full Sith off the bat.

And narratively it doesn't matter because there was no meaningful struggle to Rey's journey. Those mistakes are quickly rectified.

*Points above* Rey got taken down by Kylo multiple times.

So, tell me again about how you haven't seen the movie? Because you're yet another person who leaves out, like, half a dozen scenes.

I did not say those scenes did not happen. It's that within the larger context of Rey's journey as a hero, those scenes are effectively inconsequential. It's like saying someone who got a little bloodied in a fight counts as "failures" when they won it without any major injuries to themselves.

Rey's mistakes made aren't consequential failures in regards to the overall story. She has no fundamental weakness as a character. She required multiple mind-tricks before it works? So fucking what? It's like saying Luke failing to grab the lightsaber in the Wampa's cave is a failure comparable to his defeat by Vader. She has an unseemingly amount of force tricks available to her whenever she is in any spot of trouble. It's the "sonic screwdriver" solves everything kind of plot. Yes, you can explain this is how the force works, but it's narratively lazy.

It's about being able to contextualize her "failures", and not merely giving us a checklist of things she didn't manage to do perfectly. Luke charged into a fight he was not prepared for. He lost. Anakin charged into a fight he was not prepared for. He lost. ( Against Dooku).

Rey charged with a fight she was not prepared for. She won. ( Yes, there are a million and one reasons you can list as to why she won, but that isn't important). It's that she never pay for mistakes that would cost people dearly. Her "darkness"? Not an issue for Rey. Her "anger"? Not an issue for Rey.

Formless posted about an author saying power fantasy or wish fulfillment is seen as a good thing in fiction nowadays. If Rey is merely a power fantasy for SW fans or a wish fulfillment, I don't see this as good character writing. It's boring because people will never even feel the tension in her character arc. She's a very hollow character.

[Shroom Man 777]

How is being captured not a major fucking mistake? Sheesh.

[Kojiro]

How is being captured not a major fucking mistake? Sheesh.

I would hesitantly suggest that it's not so much a mistake as a triviality. There is no lasting impact on Rey and she promptly turns the mind probe back on him, then escapes with ease. So yeah it's a mistake, but the real loser of the situation was Kylo (who did not extract the information) who promptly lost his prisoner.

[ray245]

How is being captured not a major fucking mistake? Sheesh.

Because it contribute nothing to her character arc and development? What did Rey learn from being captured as a character?

Luke's defeat serves as a vehicle for character grow. He learn to value his sense of self-control.

[Q99]

How is being captured not a major fucking mistake? Sheesh.

And not just captured- Captured because she runs off on her own and is isolated from everyone else when, as we saw, the Resistance was coming soon after to drop on the heads of the main fight. Her judgement call resulted in her being chased down by a darksider who *effortlessly* took her down with the force and interrogated her. Like you say, sheesh.


Now, one can argue that things after that go right enough for her (she gains first-hand experience of mind tricks, she frees herself in time to meet up with her friends, etc.) that that plotline then deflates without sufficient struggle, but... that's not what's being argued here by other posters, and like Kojiro mentions that's more a Kylo fail.


This is kinda why I go to the '... pretty sure she's being called a mary sue because she's a woman,' card (which using doesn't erase that factual errors in the arguments have been gone through point by point, and if it's not that, then it's merely a double standard for other reasons I'm not privy to, but the choice of terminology makes me think this way). Actual story areas that can be improved are neglected in favor of ignoring stuff that isn't. People are calling stuff bad for stuff not happening that did. Whether it be her not-actually-outrageous skillset (which is varied but mostly mid-level at best with one or two exceptions), or her lack-of-failures-which-isn't, the arguments are just.... bad. They're flat out factually massively off in ways that not only can and have been outlined in depth, but whenever a new area is brought up, it turns out that area is also either ignoring or misrepresenting something. They're bad arguments and people should feel bad for making them.

[Sidewinder]

So. I suggest to everyone reading that if you don't want to cause intractable arguments or get accused of being sexist, you just don't use the term "Mary Sue." Whether you have seen it or not, whether you consider it sexist or not, it absolutely has sexist connotations and baggage attached.

4chan has repeatedly used the term "Mary Sue" to describe MALE characters, including Eragon, Marvel Comics' Wolverine, Batman, and Games Workshop's Space Marines. "Mary Sue" is no longer a gendered term. A character's gender does not excuse poor character portrayal or development.

[NecronLord]

That's an appeal to a very strange authority there.

[Sidewinder]

That's an appeal to a very strange authority there.

I'm not appealing to authority, I'm noting changes I see in the way people use certain terms. Will anyone argue it's still wrong to use "their" in the singular, i.e., when referring to an individual whose gender is not clearly defined?

[NecronLord]

4chan is however, a sample self-selected to be less concerned about issues of women's rights than society at large.

[Formless]

And on top of that, the point wasn't to say that no one uses the term "Mary Sue" or even "Marty/Gary Stu" to describe male characters, but that it happens far less often because of the term's history, origins, gendered name, and indeed sexist baggage. And to say that TVTropes, a source with its own community of people debating this that and the other thing, has found no universal agreement that Male Sue characters are a thing. Batman sometimes gets called a Mary Sue or Gary Stu, but most people don't bat an eye at his OP characterization because male characters are allowed to be icons of power; whereas Rey, an amateur Space Wizard, gets shit for being able to defend herself with a glowey energy stick from a guy with a bloody hole in his gut. And of course, even if it weren't applied asymmetrically with male and female characters, its still vague enough and open to interpretation enough to justify dropping it from one's critical lexicon.

[Q99]

And on top of that, the point wasn't to say that no one uses the term "Mary Sue" or even "Marty/Gary Stu" to describe male characters, but that it happens far less often because of the term's history, origins, gendered name, and indeed sexist baggage. And to say that TVTropes, a source with its own community of people debating this that and the other thing, has found no universal agreement that Male Sue characters are a thing. Batman sometimes gets called a Mary Sue or Gary Stu, but most people don't bat an eye at his OP characterization because male characters are allowed to be icons of power; whereas Rey, an amateur Space Wizard, gets shit for being able to defend herself with a glowey energy stick from a guy with a bloody hole in his gut. And of course, even if it weren't applied asymmetrically with male and female characters, its still vague enough and open to interpretation enough to justify dropping it from one's critical lexicon.

Quite.

In short, using it undermines the point to begin with, and does make the most honest, direct answer, "make her a dude."

[Vendetta]

What're Rey's struggles?

Overcoming self deception about her parents, her abandonment and her lack of any special destiny just because of who she is.

But y'know, those are things about an actual character that you have to pay attention and understand how movies work to follow, not things that are force fed you by flashy CGI so you probably missed them.

[Crazedwraith]

Something that gets mentioned maybe half a dozen times over two films and doesn't really seem to affect her and her actions at all. Other than a couple of mentions that she wants to get back to Jakku.

I noticed in TLJ it's not a source of angst for her that she brings up. It's something Ren keeps bringing up to try to manipulate her and fails.

[ray245]

What're Rey's struggles?

Overcoming self deception about her parents, her abandonment and her lack of any special destiny just because of who she is.

But y'know, those are things about an actual character that you have to pay attention and understand how movies work to follow, not things that are force fed you by flashy CGI so you probably missed them.

And those stuff don't hinder her character journey in any way or hold her back. She wish to be trained as a jedi once she sets off on her journey. Her realisation that her parents were nobody did not hinder her path to becoming a Jedi.

[ray245]

And on top of that, the point wasn't to say that no one uses the term "Mary Sue" or even "Marty/Gary Stu" to describe male characters, but that it happens far less often because of the term's history, origins, gendered name, and indeed sexist baggage. And to say that TVTropes, a source with its own community of people debating this that and the other thing, has found no universal agreement that Male Sue characters are a thing. Batman sometimes gets called a Mary Sue or Gary Stu, but most people don't bat an eye at his OP characterization because male characters are allowed to be icons of power; whereas Rey, an amateur Space Wizard, gets shit for being able to defend herself with a glowey energy stick from a guy with a bloody hole in his gut. And of course, even if it weren't applied asymmetrically with male and female characters, its still vague enough and open to interpretation enough to justify dropping it from one's critical lexicon.

Quite.

In short, using it undermines the point to begin with, and does make the most honest, direct answer, "make her a dude."

How the fuck is that good writing? Just because male characters gets away with being power fantasy and self-insert does not mean female characters should be the same.

And on top of that, the point wasn't to say that no one uses the term "Mary Sue" or even "Marty/Gary Stu" to describe male characters, but that it happens far less often because of the term's history, origins, gendered name, and indeed sexist baggage. And to say that TVTropes, a source with its own community of people debating this that and the other thing, has found no universal agreement that Male Sue characters are a thing. Batman sometimes gets called a Mary Sue or Gary Stu, but most people don't bat an eye at his OP characterization because male characters are allowed to be icons of power; whereas Rey, an amateur Space Wizard, gets shit for being able to defend herself with a glowey energy stick from a guy with a bloody hole in his gut. And of course, even if it weren't applied asymmetrically with male and female characters, its still vague enough and open to interpretation enough to justify dropping it from one's critical lexicon.

No. Rey doesn't exist in isolation. She exist within a fabric of a larger story, with other protagonists shown to have trouble fully mastering the force. This means she must be compared to other protagonists in the Star Wars universe. Even Ezra took more time to learn about his force abilities than Rey.

[NecronLord]

Q99 is being sarcastic there.

[Kojiro]

Overcoming self deception about her parents, her abandonment and her lack of any special destiny just because of who she is.

Regarding self deception and abandonment- that's obviously a coping mechanism, a survival instinct against realizing the actual horror that your parents sold you for booze money (if indeed that remains true). This could be, if a character were written well, a really good character facet to have. The problem is that, to steal some RPG terminology, she may have the flaw (and spend the points from it) she simply doesn't actually, *have* the flaw. When the First Order first show up, her instinct is NOT to go hide. It is not to stay put, to run back to her armoured home. It's to take to the stars- literally to leave. This occurs while she supposedly has the issue you're claiming. The First Order aren't after her- they don't know her worth a damn. The Republic hasn't done anything for her either- she has no investment in helping Finn or BB-8 (who she met last night) but she supposedly does have one in staying put. Yet she's willing to not only help, but risk her life *and* leave Jakku. Immediately following the TIE chase she promises BB8 that she'll get him home. Now she does say she'll go back after dropping them off, but that's just a dodge. If the flaw doesn't actually stop her leaving, then it's not really a flaw is it? Furthermore, when Han suggests dropping them off at the nearest planet (which is certainly Jakku) Rey is the *first* to say 'No!' As if she couldn't leave BB-8 in hand of, as she puts it, 'THE Han Solo!' and the 'Resistance member' Finn.

Note, a huge plot hole is present here. Han takes them to Maz's place, but there's no good reason for it. BB-8 is Poe's astromech droid and as we've already established, knows the location of the Resistance base. If hyperdrives are as fast as claimed, and the Falcon is fast even by those standards, going to Maz makes no sense. Just go to the Resistance base directly, it's not like Han's an unknown to them. Han makes up some nonsense about getting a 'clean ship' but at this point, hyperspace tracking is still impossible, so that's just gibberish.

Rey never questions this change in plan, even though it will necessitate time away from Jakku. Indeed Han's rubbish explanation comes after they've landed and the FO does not track them there because the Falcon was there- they did so because there was an informant- reasonably unlikely to be found in the Resistance base. In the cantina Rey is dogged, telling Finn they're not done and she won't let him go until they've delivered BB-8.

Now of course it all goes south when she flips out about after having her force vision, runs into the forest and gets captured. Note when she runs off, the FO has not arrived- she's doing little more than clearing her head. Unless you take her at her word when she tells BB-8 she's leaving to mean 'into the forest' in which case that's not back to Jakku either. But she's run well further than the Falcon was so she's not heading back there either. Either way, running into the forest isn't a mistake of hers. She's no reason to believe a dark force user would be waiting there for her. If anything her mistake is going back, to again risk her life.

This incidentally raises another plot hole. Rey has seen the map, which Ren is confident her can therefore extract. But he's already met up with Lor San Tekka, who originally procured it and almost certainly has also seen it. At the very least, he knows where to get such maps, making him very much worth interrogating, but Ren just cuts him down without even looking into his mind.

So she gets captured, rending the whole 'must get home' thing moot. But by the end of the movie, she's given a choice. Either go back home or go after Luke. Now you can of course make the argument that Maz's little pep talk opened her eyes, but if all it took was someone telling her to move on... well geez, talk about struggle. It also somewhat invalidates Ren getting her to admit the truth to herself if Maz already did. Regardless (the insanity of sending HER to get Luke instead of Leia aside) she elects not to go home, but instead to chase Luke.

So yeah. The flaw is written into the character background, but it's never, at any point meaningful, restrictive or hampering to her beyond her having to occasionally say "I've go to go home'. She never sells them out to get home, she never steals a ship, never suggests someone else go. She never makes on of those decisions characters make when their goals are at odds with the party, so to speak.

As for not having a special destiny, boo hoo. That is possibly the worst thing she could be lamenting. For one, virtually everyone in the galaxy has no special destiny and two, she's one of the few people in the galaxy who actually DOES have a special destiny.

[Vendetta]

Something that gets mentioned maybe half a dozen times over two films and doesn't really seem to affect her and her actions at all. Other than a couple of mentions that she wants to get back to Jakku.

I noticed in TLJ it's not a source of angst for her that she brings up. It's something Ren keeps bringing up to try to manipulate her and fails.

Throughout TFA she is persistent in trying to reject being a Jedi, right up to the end where she tries to give Luke's lightsabre back, hoping it will be taken away and not be her problem and she can return to wait for her parents.

It's not until after she accepts the truth of who they were that she actually makes a major, sustained and intentional use of the Force on Crait.

So yes, if you actually watch the movies not make up a version in your head to get salty about, it does affect her arc as a character quite a lot.

[Kojiro]

Throughout TFA she is persistent in trying to reject being a Jedi, right up to the end where she tries to give Luke's lightsabre back, hoping it will be taken away and not be her problem and she can return to wait for her parents.

Then why in seven hells does she volunteer to take the saber to Luke? Stick it in R2, give it to Chewie or- just an idea- LEIA and go home. As I pointed out above, she may say a few times she wants to, but her actions disagree.

[Crazedwraith]

Something that gets mentioned maybe half a dozen times over two films and doesn't really seem to affect her and her actions at all. Other than a couple of mentions that she wants to get back to Jakku.

I noticed in TLJ it's not a source of angst for her that she brings up. It's something Ren keeps bringing up to try to manipulate her and fails.

Throughout TFA she is persistent in trying to reject being a Jedi, right up to the end where she tries to give Luke's lightsabre back, hoping it will be taken away and not be her problem and she can return to wait for her parents.

It's not until after she accepts the truth of who they were that she actually makes a major, sustained and intentional use of the Force on Crait.

Kojiro covered this better than I can. But she in no way is hesitant or reluctant about this stuff. "I must go back to Jakku... after all this other stuff I want to do."

So yes, if you actually watch the movies not make up a version in your head to get salty about, it does affect her arc as a character quite a lot.

So people don't get the same things from movies, and don't interpret things in the same way? Gosh it's almost like movie viewing is subjective.

Please, chill and stop treating the way you view the movie as the objectively correct one and heaping scorn on people who don't see it the same way.

[Simon_Jester]

I can work with the concept of a character whose "flaw" is an irrational attachment to her home and only sometimes acts on this attachment. The operative question is simply "how often?"

And on top of that, the point wasn't to say that no one uses the term "Mary Sue" or even "Marty/Gary Stu" to describe male characters, but that it happens far less often because of the term's history, origins, gendered name, and indeed sexist baggage. And to say that TVTropes, a source with its own community of people debating this that and the other thing, has found no universal agreement that Male Sue characters are a thing. Batman sometimes gets called a Mary Sue or Gary Stu, but most people don't bat an eye at his OP characterization because male characters are allowed to be icons of power...

The main reason I've never called Batman a Mary Sue isn't because he's a man, it's because he's clearly insane, just in a socially useful sense of the word. In addition to this, he's not universally loved; insofar as he's respected it's because of things that the writers usually do go out of their way to show him working for. The only 'superpower' he didn't earn is money, and that's the least important of his 'abilities.' He's explicitly described as going through exhaustive physical and mental training regimens.

If you want an example of Mary Suedom in comics, the premier example would almost have to be Superman, because writing Superman without Suedom creeping in is hard.

Again, I'm not saying that there aren't sexist bozos abusing these terms. But sexist bozos will abuse literally anything; if we stop using all the linguistic and critical tools abused by sexist bozos, there won't be any left.

[Crazedwraith]

I can work with the concept of a character whose "flaw" is an irrational attachment to her home and only sometimes acts on this attachment. The operative question is simply "how often?"

This is very true. Rey does seem to have an irrational attachment to going back to Jakku. But she still seems to prioritise the good of the rebellion and finding Luke over it.

[Simon_Jester]

Which is fair enough- at the same time, though, a character who clearly has flaws and makes at least some poor choices due to them is different from a character who has no flaws and makes unfailingly optimal choices.

A character whose flaw is, say, "poor anger management" doesn't have to blow up and lose their temper literally every single time they're provoked. A character whose flaw is "trusts the wrong people" doesn't have to give their trust to literally every single schemer they meet, or give that trust forever no matter how many times they're cheated, to establish the flaw.

Honestly, I kind of like my movie protagonists to be people who clearly struggle with their own flaws and problems, but who prove capable of going beyond those limitations and flaws much of the time, rather than being enslaved by them.