How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

[Formless]

So where does that take all this nastiness you're throwing at me? Or was it even pointed at me?

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. I was responding to Crazedwraith and APlayerHater, summarizing my position on their arguments. Your post came in between. I wasn't aiming any heat at you.

If you don't believe Rey to be a Mary Sue, then any argument between the two of us is a rather moot point, isn't it?

Still, you at least deserve clarification on one thing you said and I disagree with. In my quote of you, by mistake I somehow doubled the same one statement when I meant to include your definition of a Mary Sue:

"Mary Sue" is useful insofar as it is a convenient term for "this character has passed a certain critical threshold of unearned skill/power, unearned respect, and ability to warp plotlines like a Wheel of Time ta'veren, to the point where they are simply unbelievable and uninteresting."

I suppose if you want to take the different interpretations TVT gives as metrics for Mary Sueness, then fine, any one of them might make for irritating characters individually or as a whole. The article itself however clearly presents them as competingp interpretations rather than metrics. I try to avoid words with too many competing definitions, as it means I would have to clarify what I really mean anyway and that gets redundant fast. Shorthands are supposed to make communication faster, not slower.

That's about seven different metrics. Rey barely even triggers my Sue-dar. Batman pings it a little harder but not hard enough to register. Superman pings it considerably harder than Batman, because his powers are unearned and because he is much more often presented as a moral paragon, despite having to sacrifice and risk far less to adhere to his moral code than many other heroes. Tauriel pings it pretty hard because she is, in effect, an OC warping a canon storyline around herself; a male character doing many of the same things would ping the Sue-dar about as hard, I think.

Rey certainly works harder for her powers than Supes, that's for sure. If I didn't know better I would almost certainly call Saitama a specific parody of Supes (but he's totally a Goku parody).

(I haven't seen The Hobbit movies, so I can't comment on them)

I'm going to be honest, I've started actively rebelling against this kind of thing, because I don't see where it ends. How much vocabulary am I going to have to sacrifice because someone else decided that someone else was abusing it? At what point am I entitled to say "show the harm and the inherent injustice of the term's use, or let it rest?"

Do you use the term "Social Justice Warrior"? Because that's approximately where I draw the line. Yes, I've seen people who use the term to earnestly criticize extreme lefties just like I've seen many people use the term "Mary Sue" as an earnest way of leading into a criticism of a character. But at the end of the day, I don't use them myself because they are both derogatory words that would hurt my personal credibility because in effect they brand me as well.

[The Romulan Republic]

Not going to go through this whole long tract, but I'd like to address a couple things that immediately stood out to me:

I'm not angry that Rey is a Mary Sue based on the movies themselves; it is more that every single person and publication on the internet is accusing people of being misogynistic if they don't like the sequels. If everywhere online was saying the prequels were completely flawless at the time of their release, and that there was something wrong with you if you didn't like them, I'm sure you would be angry too.

I don't see a lot of people saying "You're a misogynist if you don't like the sequels." No one is saying they're flawless either. In fact, I've seen a LOT of very mixed or critical reviews. I think that most of them are saying people are misogynist when they hold female characters to a different standard than male characters. At least, that has always been the basis of my arguments.

Your comments here are, however, strongly reminiscent of many Right-wingers who insist that they're not sexist/racist, but that they're being persecuted by a vast SJW conspiracy that's taking over society. They usually, in my experience, turn out to just be racists and sexists who think they're being persecuted if anyone calls them on it.

If Rey was a man in this movie I would have had the same complaints about him. Everything in this universe revolves around Rey. You could say everything in the prequels revolves around Anakin.

That's how the whole "chosen one" thing works. You may not like the trope, but it is a very old one.

Those movies are bad.

Here is how everything revolves around Rey:

Finn? Goes from completely self serving coward to obsessed with rescuing Rey. He left TFO because he was a coward.

Well, if I didn't think you were a Neo-Fascist troll before, you're doing your best to prove me wrong. Since you apparently feel that someone is a "coward" for not dutifully following the space Nazis' orders to gun down innocent civilians (I agree that Finn was largely driven by fear initially, but not for that reason).

And a love can motivate people to do things they otherwise wouldn't? Who knew.

Han? Wants Rey to permanently join him on the MF within hours of meeting her.

That's more just Han being Han, I'd say.

He also suggested Luke come with him rather than fight at Yavin back in A New Hope, remember?

Or, in a meta sense, its a clumsy plot convenience from a film directed by someone who's not very good at constructing plots (though that's a flaw that has nothing to do with Rey specifically).

Leia? First time Leia sees Rey, she goes up to Rey and hugs her, even though Rey's a total stranger. Somehow Leia intuitively sensed that Rey was upset about Han's death. I know it's the force, but still, they're complete strangers. I guess Rey was so sad about the death of... Some guy she knew for less than a day, that Leia could sense it.

That is a bit odd, but the likely cause of Rey's close attachment to Han is clearly lampshaded by Kylo (if you take his word for it, anyway)- she's someone with no family, who is haunted by that absence and has a tendency to latch onto surrogate father figures. In a meta sense, she was probably also being used as a surrogate for the fans' feelings at the death of Han.

There's also the fact that Han probably was one of the first people to ever treat her decently in her life. Which is probably a big part of why Finn latched onto Poe and Rey, too. When you don't have a lot of friends, the ones you do have may take on disproportionate importance.

Maz? Tries to give Rey Anakin's lightsaber the first time she sees Rey. Because the lightsaber magically "called out" to Rey, even though she has no connection to it at all. She's not a blood relative, and lightsabers have never called out to people in the past. I guess she's just extra special.

I actually like the idea that Rey is important because of who SHE is, not because she's part of the Skywalker bloodline, as it appeals to my democratic values. But I will acknowledge that things might have made more sense if she had been Luke's descendent.

That said, "exceptionally strong in the Force" is not the worst reason to give someone a lightsabre.

I do harshly criticize the Force vision sequence in Maz's castle, but not because I think it makes Rey a Mary Sue- just because I think its bad, contrived, ham-fisted plotting which fits poorly with prior depictions of Force visions.

Kylo Ren? Just needs Rey for the information. Suddenly Snoke wants him to bring... her... to... him, and has Kylo drop everything to go after her directly. They even stop looking for Luke Skywalker and BB8's Map in the sequel and focus solely on getting Rey. I guess they just stopped caring about Luke. --Sure, Snoke and Kylo do go after the rebellion in the sequel, but it hardly seems like their main objective.

Um... they spent most of the film trying to destroy the Rebel fleet?

Also, its flatly false that they dropped the search for Luke. Snoke wanted Rey to tell him where Luke was, as I recall. He never even seemed to have much interest in trying to turn her (that was Kylo's pet project).

Yoda? Tells us, the audience, that Rey has surpassed him in the ways of the force. He has been training Jedi for 900 years and she has known the force exists for 18 hours.

I did NOT take that as "Rey knows more about the Force than Yoda". Rather, that Rey was the right kind of person, with the right mindset to use the Force, and to move beyond the outdated structure of the old Jedi Order. But I suppose that its somewhat open to interpretation.

It would, however, be consistent with Yoda's gradually moving away from old Jedi doctrine over the course of the prior films.

Also, where the hell did you get "18 hours" from?

In TLJ again she puts in a better showing than Kylo, both in melee combat and with use of force powers. She has to save his ass when fighting the a̶d̶e̶p̶t̶u̶s̶ ̶c̶u̶s̶t̶o̶d̶e̶s̶ imperial sword guys.

She "saved his ass" after he took on three guys at once while she struggled with one, yes. Its very clear that neither of them would have survived that fight without the other.

It is, again, flatly false that she exhibits superior powers with the Force. They are perfectly evenly match in their struggle over Luke's lightsabre (in contrast to TFA)- though I suppose you could say that that was due to Rey's being injured and likely self-doubt over her inability to stop Snoke or redeem Kylo, and the revelation about her parents.*

*All of those failures rather weigh against the idea that Rey is a perfect Mary Sue who always succeeds at everything, however.

For some reason after 18 hours of having owned a lightsaber, and briefly swinging her sword at some rocks, she can take on 5 guys at once and has to rescue Kylo. She is literally better than him at fighting after hearing him say "the force" one time.

Objectively false, again. I don't recall her taking on five guys alone, nor being a clearly better fighter than Kylo Ren, nor does her prior knowledge of hand-to-hand combat extend only to "swinger her sword at some rocks".

Also, source "18 hours", please.

Its easy to bash a film, or a character, when you insist on seeing only what fits your preconceptions.

[Vympel]

In TLJ again she puts in a better showing than Kylo, both in melee combat and with use of force powers. She has to save his ass when fighting the a̶d̶e̶p̶t̶u̶s̶ ̶c̶u̶s̶t̶o̶d̶e̶s̶ imperial sword guys. For some reason after 18 hours of having owned a lightsaber, and briefly swinging her sword at some rocks, she can take on 5 guys at once and has to rescue Kylo. She is literally better than him at fighting after hearing him say "the force" one time.

This is objectively false. In total, Kylo kills one more Praeatorian than Rey does (not including the assist she gave him with her lightsaber at the end), with Kylo killing three Praetorians in rapid succession while she struggles against the one - who also wounds her.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yup.

Though it is clear neither of them could have won that fight on their own.

Also, on an unrelated note, that one guy who got shredded is probably the most brutal on-screen death in a Star Wars film (Owen and Beru's implied off-screen burning to death would be worse, though). I was a bit surprise when I saw it.

[Simon_Jester]

I suppose if you want to take the different interpretations TVT gives as metrics for Mary Sueness, then fine, any one of them might make for irritating characters individually or as a whole. The article itself however clearly presents them as competingp interpretations rather than metrics. I try to avoid words with too many competing definitions, as it means I would have to clarify what I really mean anyway and that gets redundant fast. Shorthands are supposed to make communication faster, not slower.

The way I figure it, a bunch of those definitions aren't mutually exclusive; the same conspicuously obnoxious character can easily trigger several of them at once, and they tend to be correlated with one another. For instance, poorly written characters are more likely to distort the plot or to be over-idealized.

That's about seven different metrics. Rey barely even triggers my Sue-dar. Batman pings it a little harder but not hard enough to register. Superman pings it considerably harder than Batman, because his powers are unearned and because he is much more often presented as a moral paragon, despite having to sacrifice and risk far less to adhere to his moral code than many other heroes. Tauriel pings it pretty hard because she is, in effect, an OC warping a canon storyline around herself; a male character doing many of the same things would ping the Sue-dar about as hard, I think.

Rey certainly works harder for her powers than Supes, that's for sure. If I didn't know better I would almost certainly call Saitama a specific parody of Supes (but he's totally a Goku parody).

Saitama did train hard for his powers, to be fair, it's just that this happened entirely in the backstory insofar as I know anything about One Punch Man, which I, uh, kind of don't.

Granted, Saitama didn't train nearly hard enough to justify being orders of magnitude stronger than everyone else, including others who themselves trained hard. But he at least worked. Goku, meanwhile, has been training literally his entire life, and much of his early origin story and coming of age story consisted of him roaming the Earth to find the most sagely or even godlike trainers he could find. Goku's Suedom doesn't come from unearned power in my book, at least not so much; it comes from other things.

I'm going to be honest, I've started actively rebelling against this kind of thing, because I don't see where it ends. How much vocabulary am I going to have to sacrifice because someone else decided that someone else was abusing it? At what point am I entitled to say "show the harm and the inherent injustice of the term's use, or let it rest?"

Do you use the term "Social Justice Warrior"? Because that's approximately where I draw the line. Yes, I've seen people who use the term to earnestly criticize extreme lefties just like I've seen many people use the term "Mary Sue" as an earnest way of leading into a criticism of a character. But at the end of the day, I don't use them myself because they are both derogatory words that would hurt my personal credibility because in effect they brand me as well.

I'm more likely to use it to mock people who cry about "SJWs" (ironically) triggering them and making them feel unsafe in their perceived right to be asinine, personally.

"Social Justice Warrior" crossed at threshold at some point, beyond which you can't really recover a word because it's been used too heavily by nasty people, and isn't being used heavily enough by the rest of the population to justify trying to fight for its status as neutral terminology.

I feel that "Mary Sue" has not crossed this threshold, insofar as it is not primarily used by, nor coined by, sexists.

[Kojiro]

You are being too focused on skills. What skills a character has, and why they have them, is only part of the equation, and not even necessarily a critical one. Tauriel has a whole host of problems that are completely unrelated to what skills she does or does not possess, that either don't apply to Rey or apply to a much lesser degree.

Oh I totally concede that the skills part of it is my primary issue. I'm not nearly so bothered by Han wanting to recruit her (that makes sense in light of her skills) or Finn being enamoured of her (she is quite attractive). For me it's very difficult to not think of things in a tabletop RPG setting as it's what I've done for 30+ years.

I put a long ramble here but I think it's skippable for the most part. Spoiler

Overall I think determining if she fits the Sue definition is a bit pointless, because there are so many definitions to start with, and even if you have a criteria people will disagree whether she meets it or not. I think what really happened was that Mary Sue was just the *closest* term to the complaint people felt but couldn't quite articulate. What it really comes down to is whether or not the movie manages to get you to accept the story as told, whether or not while watching it your mind, conscious or otherwise, accepts what it sees and hears.

For some people this is easier than others, and knowledge plays a big part. Every time I see a show where someone hides behind a car door or coffee table from an AK47 I *know* they might as well be in the open as far as stopping bullets goes. Hence I find it a mild strain on my SoD but I've seen it so much it's almost a cinematic rule that heroes can hide behind anything. SoD can be bent, tremendously far, if you do it in small enough steps. My favorite example is Stark's mini arc reactor. First they show you he's a genius engineer, then they show you the technology works in a larger form *back in the 70s*. So Tony doesn't actually invent anything, he just miniaturised it. And if there's one thing everyone knows is that's technology gets more powerful and smaller. It's a small jump to believe someone in 2008 could radically improve upon a design from the 70s. Throw in the 'it's a super hero film' SoD bonus to negate the work environment and it's now bending SoD, but not breaking it wholesale the way him just inventing it outright would.

Rey I think breaks SoD by trying to bend it too fast, and I think that being so derivative of ANH actually hurts her in this respect. She's obviously mostly based on Luke,but she also lives in the local hive of scum and villainy, with slavery (implied or otherwise), no concern for droid rights and of course, the Falcon. As she's also the Falcon pilot, who is not from a farm with loving guardians, she also calls back to Han somewhat. Han is, as you'd expect from someone in such a hive, not the nicest guy. He gouges Luke and Obi-Wan and of course doesn't seem overly concerned when he kills Greedo. That's fine, he's a rogue, a shady character. But if the Empire rocked up and said to him 'Welll pay your debt to Jabba and give you a nice reward if you turn over the droids' he'd have hesitated? That he'd put his own wellbeing second to theirs? It is, after all part of his arc that he comes back for his friend. Strangers, not so much I'm guessing. Conversely Rey is willing to turn down 'riches' for a droid- not even a person- because...Well now we have to ask why? Is she just that good of a person? She's already had a confrontation with another scavenger, so maybe yeah. She's a heart of gold, nice, person. But then she's ambushed and she's not a nice person- she's clearly able to fight and has no qualms about using violence. No fear of engaging- this is not new territory for her. After this, she's immediately willing to run Finn down and clock him in the face. To me, these are incongruous actions. They imply that she's had this terrible life, scavenging in a dog eat dog world, having to be hard, to literally fight at times and to look out for herself, literally to avoid starvation. But despite this, she's still got a heart of gold. Still droid rights enlightened. Still willing to confront a thief for BB-8 (with the end of her stick first).

Rey has this sense of being exactly what she needs to be in any given moment, either emotionally, in action or in skill set. How many scavengers would confront another scavenger over a droid they don't own? Rey would. How many would turn down a veritable fortune for it? Rey would. How many can fly a ship? Rey can. How many are expert mechanics? Rey is. And so on and so on, up and including 'Who is the chosen one of the Force? Rey is of course!' And at that point, for me, the movie stops being a story I'm involved in and becomes a tall tale I'm skeptical of. Everyone has met someone like that. They start telling a story and you think 'ok, that's crazy' but then it just piles up and piles up and at some point your SoD breaks and you call bullshit, if only in your head.

I guess what I'm trying to say, in a horribly long winded way, is that quibbling over the definition of a Mary Sue isn't really that important. A lot of people find the character of Rey to be one of the major elements in breaking SoD, in having them make that 'bullshit' call while watching. The goal then should be how to tell the story which doesn't do that, or does it as little as possible.

For what it's worth, I've also seen people claiming that TLJs level of divisiveness is perfect, on the grounds that it simply shows how bad society is that so many have issues.

[The Romulan Republic]

Probably not what those people were referring to, but TLJ is in part, I think, an attempt (opinions may vary on the extent to which it succeeded) to deconstruct/reconstruct Star Wars for the modern day, and to tackle some of the issues facing contemporary American society.

The cynical hacker/thief, who espouses the idea that the Resistance is no different from the First Order, that there are no good guys or bad guys, was a very clear and pointed "take-that" at contemporary cynicism, false equivalencies, and "whataboutism" in politics, for example.

And even back with TFA, I remember that people were drawing comparisons between Kylo and Alt. Rightists, school shooters, etc.

Inevitably, therefore, it would be divisive.

[Q99]

Really, there is so much factually wrong that keeps on getting brought up 'against' Rey that I find it hard to take the arguments legitimately. Once you pass a certain quantity of errors in making your argument, you've cut yourself off at the knees to the point where it's probably a good idea to step back, re-examine, do some research/watch the film again, and wonder if your point really is there.

There's plenty of room to criticize the movies, but to make it Rey-centric, focus on her skills, and then get the majority of the points factually wrong often to large extents, is self-sabotaging.

[The Romulan Republic]

I would definitely advise people who have only seen the film once to see it again. There is a LOT of stuff in TLJ that I missed, or didn't pay much attention to, the first time around. In part, I think that's because the film is somewhat awkwardly constructed. In part, I think, its because its deliberately ambiguous or contradictory at times. And in part its because its rather jarringly out of step with past Star Wars films stylistically, and goes out of its way to mislead and subvert audience expectations. So I think its easy to miss stuff, or come to the wrong conclusions.

[Kojiro]

There's plenty of room to criticize the movies, but to make it Rey-centric, focus on her skills, and then get the majority of the points factually wrong often to large extents, is self-sabotaging.

If that is in any way directed and what I've written, I would appreciate you actually demonstrating why I'm wrong. If not, I apologise.

[APlayerHater]

Your comments here are, however, strongly reminiscent of many Right-wingers who insist that they're not sexist/racist, but that they're being persecuted by a vast SJW conspiracy that's taking over society. They usually, in my experience, turn out to just be racists and sexists who think they're being persecuted if anyone calls them on it.

I mean, you don't have to accuse me of things to prove your point.

Well, if I didn't think you were a Neo-Fascist troll before, you're doing your best to prove me wrong. Since you apparently feel that someone is a "coward" for not dutifully following the space Nazis' orders to gun down innocent civilians (I agree that Finn was largely driven by fear initially, but not for that reason).

Godwin's Law aside, getting back to the point...

You don't get the impression that Finn's defecting due to any moral objection. Some guy in his squad dies and wipes blood on his helmet and he has a panic attack and tries to leave. I.E. his motivation is cowardice.

That's more just Han being Han, I'd say.

He also suggested Luke come with him rather than fight at Yavin back in A New Hope, remember?

Or, in a meta sense, its a clumsy plot convenience from a film directed by someone who's not very good at constructing plots (though that's a flaw that has nothing to do with Rey specifically).

With Han now being a cynical grump it seems less likely, but whatever. Each of these things in isolation isn't that big a deal, but they all kind of compound on the movie.

That is a bit odd, but the likely cause of Rey's close attachment to Han is clearly lampshaded by Kylo (if you take his word for it, anyway)- she's someone with no family, who is haunted by that absence and has a tendency to latch onto surrogate father figures. In a meta sense, she was probably also being used as a surrogate for the fans' feelings at the death of Han.

Or more likely Rey and Leia met in a previous scene that was cut from the film. Just makes it weird at the end. This on its own would only be kind of weird, but compounding effect of one thing after another.

I actually like the idea that Rey is important because of who SHE is, not because she's part of the Skywalker bloodline, as it appeals to my democratic values. But I will acknowledge that things might have made more sense if she had been Luke's descendent.

That said, "exceptionally strong in the Force" is not the worst reason to give someone a lightsabre.

I do harshly criticize the Force vision sequence in Maz's castle, but not because I think it makes Rey a Mary Sue- just because I think its bad, contrived, ham-fisted plotting which fits poorly with prior depictions of Force visions.

Star Wars was always more about family, destiny, specialness being inhereted from one's lineage. While Rey not being a blood relative to someone is going in a new direction, it's a little at odds with Star Wars' rationale: mainly that Luke and Leia "had the force" because their father was a Jedi knight, and it was their destiny to carry on his legacy.

That being said, many Jedi come from random ass parts of the galaxy with no history of force sensitivity in their families. I'm fine with Rey just being a freak of nature or whatever but I don't appreciate the ease with which she surpasses all feats of force power that we saw in the other films.

Um... they spent most of the film trying to destroy the Rebel fleet?

Also, its flatly false that they dropped the search for Luke. Snoke wanted Rey to tell him where Luke was, as I recall. He never even seemed to have much interest in trying to turn her (that was Kylo's pet project).

True. Snoke's main goal in that movie seems to be to "destroy hope." Kind of funny that the ideals of the main characters are just as important to him, and he's dedicating so much time and effort to wiping out a "resistance fleet" that consists of about 10 x wings and 3 capitol ships.

I'll be honest, the dialogue in that scene I only vaguely remember, so I'll take your word for it. So apologies for talking out of my ass.

I did NOT take that as "Rey knows more about the Force than Yoda". Rather, that Rey was the right kind of person, with the right mindset to use the Force, and to move beyond the outdated structure of the old Jedi Order. But I suppose that its somewhat open to interpretation.

It would, however, be consistent with Yoda's gradually moving away from old Jedi doctrine over the course of the prior films.

Also, where the hell did you get "18 hours" from?

Well, she surpasses every feat of force power we've seen Yoda use, certainly. Looking back at the old films, Yoda can't hold a candle to Rey.

Otherwise, TLJ has an 18 hour time limit and occurs directly after TFA, so we know exactly how much time she spends on that island; it isn't long.

She "saved his ass" after he took on three guys at once while she struggled with one, yes. Its very clear that neither of them would have survived that fight without the other.

Rey and Kylo both started that fight taking on 3 guys each back to back. Rey kills one of the guys in the crowd.

The two split up. We see Rey fighting 2 guys. She kills one and gets her sword caught in a dude's laser whip. She then kills him and she fights Kamas guy for a while.

We cut to Kylo in melee with 2 guys. Third guy comes in from off screen and Kylo kills him.

Kylo then watches Rey for a second, fighting Kamas guy, before entering Melee with 3 guys.

Rey Fights Kamas guy again.

Kylo kills a guy but gets his sword stuck. One of the guys he's fighting gets him in a choke hold.

Rey gets grappled by Kamas guy, but then frees herself and cuts his throat.

She then throws her sword to Kylo who kills the last dude.

They both kill exactly 4 dudes before Rey throws the lightsaber into Kylo's hand, and he just ignites it. So I'm counting that as a team kill.

So they kill 4.5 guys each.

They both do equally well despite the disparity in their training, with Kylo being the student of Luke and Snoke, while Rey briefly had the force described to her once.

Rey didn't seem to work on struggle to gain her powers. Even the movie's just like "Oh, she was chosen to be the avatar of the light side." So the movie's telling us "She just gets powers now because Kylo is strong." Every time Kylo gets XP, she gets the same amount of XP for free.

[Civil War Man]

Probably not what those people were referring to, but TLJ is in part, I think, an attempt (opinions may vary on the extent to which it succeeded) to deconstruct/reconstruct Star Wars for the modern day, and to tackle some of the issues facing contemporary American society.

This actually ties in a bit with my "entertaining movie, bad Star Wars sequel" stance. There is an argument to be made that it is not necessarily healthy for a series to start deconstructing itself, especially a series that is built upon the idea of creating an immersive second world. Deconstruction is an act of meta-commentary, so you are going to be constantly reminding the viewer that they are watching a fictional story, which is not conducive to immersion. If you start deconstructing a house while you are in it, you run the risk of having the roof collapse on your head.

On reflection, I've found that the new movies are written, in a way, in the style of a Star Wars parody. One of the main goals of a parody is to deconstruct the source material they are parodizing, and one of the primary ways of doing that is to build up set pieces that are reminiscent of the source material, then exaggerate or subvert some aspect of it.

[Kingmaker]

Well, she surpasses every feat of force power we've seen Yoda use, certainly.

Yoda can apparently control the weather well enough to cause a precision lightning strike. While dead.

Beyond that, Yoda only overtly uses the Force once in the OT, specifically to make a point to Luke. In the PT, we see him use it to rocket around like a methed-up furby, catch force lightning, toss around heavy objects, and knock people out. On top of less flashy but probably more important things like the ability to see into the future.

Rey has... lifted some rocks and done a jedi mind trick. Overperforming relative to her level of training, maybe, but not exactly master in a day.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, she surpasses every feat of force power we've seen Yoda use, certainly.

Yoda can apparently control the weather well enough to cause a precision lightning strike. While dead.

Beyond that, Yoda only overtly uses the Force once in the OT, specifically to make a point to Luke. In the PT, we see him use it to rocket around like a methed-up furby, catch force lightning, toss around heavy objects, and knock people out. On top of less flashy but probably more important things like the ability to see into the future.

Rey has... lifted some rocks and done a jedi mind trick. Overperforming relative to her level of training, maybe, but not exactly master in a day.

Yeah, what Yoda did is actually probably the single most impressive Force feat we've seen yet in the films, barring perhaps the "shroud of the Dark Side" if we assume that that was something Palpatine personally created on a galactic scale. He did something no one else has done- he physically affected the world in a significant, direct way, from beyond the grave.

I'd also contest that Rey has bested his high-end TK- the rock lifting was impressive, but I'm not sure that was more impressive, in shear scale, than stopping that giant pillar from crushing Anakin and Obi-wan in Attack of the Clones. And she doesn't hold a candle to him in countering hostile TK- Snoke vs. Rey is like a cat playing with a mouse. Compare that to how Yoda was able to counter Dooku and Sideous's TK (and Force lightning).

That said, I'll reiterate my position that, at least for those with a very strong connection to the Force, its not learning how to physically use the Force that takes the years of training. A lot of it seems to be semi-instinctive/intuitive, and tied to the state of mind of the user. We see repeated examples of someone learning to use the Force effectively with very little formal training, in both current canon and the old EU- Luke, Anakin, and Revan in KotOR all come to mind, as well as, obviously, Rey. Rey is probably the fastest learner, but not by that much- Anakin was using the Force to an extent with no training at all, and Luke had very little formal training, unless we assume that Kenobi's ghost was regularly giving him lessons off-screen.

What the years of training were for was to indoctrinate people in the Jedi ideology, more than teach them the actual techniques, I think. Ie, it was to teach them why to use the Force, and how to use it responsibly (according to the views of the Jedi), not because you need a decade or two to learn the basic techniques.

[Kingmaker]

Jedi education presumably also covers the assorted practical skills required for their function as diplomat/detective/commando/super cop. A lot of the Jedi we see exhibit multi-disciplinary competence (if not always mastery).

[The Romulan Republic]

Jedi education presumably also covers the assorted practical skills required for their function as diplomat/detective/commando/super cop. A lot of the Jedi we see exhibit multi-disciplinary competence (if not always mastery).

Yeah, that too. Especially since, being raised by the Order from childhood/infancy, the Order would have to be responsible for literally their entire education.

[CaoCao]

Actually, on second thought, I apologize for putting so many words to paper when I have a simpler way of expressing my objection to the claim that Batman can't be a Mary Sue but Rey can. If we start giving exemptions of Superheros as a genre but don't also give an exemption to Star Wars and other Adventure type genres, it appears one of three things is going on, and none of them are flattering:

1) You are being hypocritical. The principle seems to be that Superheroes get a pass because by definition their genre is a Power Fantasy, but Star Wars is also a Power Fantasy just of a different kind. Indiana Jones is the same kind of Power Fantasy as Star Wars, just without the spaceships and a male lead. No one asks how a professional archeologist learned pugilism and marksmanship even though it is irrelevant to his official job.

2) You are being sexist. Superheroes are a notoriously male dominated genre, both in the sense that most superhero characters are male and in that most readers are male AND tend to have a Gatekeeper complex that keeps women out of the genre as readers and writers. Superheroes are given a pass because we arbitrarily walled off that Genre for the convenience of men, then don't extend similar benefits to other Power Fantasy genres because they don't cater exclusively to men.

3) You are being both sexist AND dishonest. You not only give Superheroes a pass for the reasons stated above, but your complaints about Rey come from her not being male in a genre you also know to be exempt from this criticism, for the same reasons above. Science Fiction and Fantasy are also famous for being "geek" genres, and all geek genres have the same gatekeeper complex as the Superhero genre, to one degree or another. Your discomfort over Rey is because she refuses to conform to the expectation that she should be male, and the fact people don't complain about Luke and Anakin's abilities is a sign of it.

How about trying to understand what other people write? It is not a matter of fantasy or realism, it's about setting. Once a universe is set and the relative abilities are set, a new character will be compared to that setting. I'll try to illustrate this case with an example I hope you'll be willing to read and not disregard beforehand.

Lets say you create a character (male, so nobody complains of mysoginy in the evaluation) that is nice, common inteligence, middle class, can fly, is a bit stronger than a bodyduilder, can shoot beams out of his eyes that, given enough time, could melt durasteel, and cannot be mind controlled. How would this character fare in these series:

- Star Wars: he would be a Gary Stu/Mary Sue. Not unkillable, but better than the top Jedi/Sith who have a common strength, limited acrobatics, and throw lightning at best.
- DC Universe: he would be an average character. With effort cound enter the rebirth canon JLA, but no Justice League proper. He would have no business around Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lanterns, Cyborg, The Flash and even Batman.
- Dragon Ball: Haven't seen the series in a long while, but last time I checked, they were blowing up planets. On that setting, he would be a cheerleader or comical relief character.

See the difference? Now check Rey, the problem it's not that she is a girl, the problem is that she does Force stuff that all other characters (without exception) take years to learn, but after a few moments of knowing the Force is real. There is no learning curve, no point in having a teacher, and no credible character growth. She does everything out of the box, including non force related stuff.

[Simon_Jester]

The biggest point under debate is that the things Rey is doing don't necessarily take as much hard work to learn as you may think.

She uses telepathy against Ren after Ren uses it against her- and Ren is possibly the worst Force adept character in the entire series to win a telepathic brain-wrestling match. Kylo Ren's got so many neuroses, undisciplined reflexes, and weak spots in his character, that he could probably lose a telepathic contest to a cabbage, let alone the positively and definitely opposed will of an untrained Force adept.

She uses a mind trick on a stormtrooper, which is like pushing at an open door given how brainwashed they are. Same issue.

She wins a lightsaber duel against a wounded opponent, when we already have reason to think she is proficient in melee combat using non-lightsaber weapons, and may have been subconsciously channeling the Force to do that because we know powerful Force users do that. Luke did (hence his ability to bullseye womp rats when trained pilots dismissed that as impossible). Anakin did (hence his ability to fly pod racers that humans normally cannot fly, even as a small child). Why not Rey, too?

Past that point, she's got at least cursory training, and cursory training is clearly all it takes, because we know Luke was using the full suite of Jedi abilities on Bespin, if not as proficiently as an experienced Sith.

Well, she surpasses every feat of force power we've seen Yoda use, certainly.

Yoda can apparently control the weather well enough to cause a precision lightning strike. While dead.

"While dead" may be an advantage, not a disadvantage.

As the wise man said, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Rey has... lifted some rocks and done a jedi mind trick. Overperforming relative to her level of training, maybe, but not exactly master in a day.

Agreed. She's holding her own, and her potential may be positively amazing- but she's not master-class.

That said, I'll reiterate my position that, at least for those with a very strong connection to the Force, its not learning how to physically use the Force that takes the years of training. A lot of it seems to be semi-instinctive/intuitive, and tied to the state of mind of the user. We see repeated examples of someone learning to use the Force effectively with very little formal training, in both current canon and the old EU- Luke, Anakin, and Revan in KotOR all come to mind, as well as, obviously, Rey. Rey is probably the fastest learner, but not by that much- Anakin was using the Force to an extent with no training at all, and Luke had very little formal training, unless we assume that Kenobi's ghost was regularly giving him lessons off-screen.

I agree very much with this but oppose using Revan as an example. One of the key plot points of Knights of the Old Republic is that Revan is recovering knowledge, skills, and memories he already possessed. His memory has been wiped, but fragments of it remain, and things like muscle memory come back a lot faster than the specific memories of events.

But that only matters because you're right; Force use IS at least as much a function of intuition and instinct as it is of formal training.

Consider that when Luke goes off having "not completed his training" and attacks Vader on Bespin, there's no clear evidence that Vader has him outclassed on power, even though Vader is a classically trained (if crippled and weakened) Force user with decades of experience, while Luke's direct training under a living master cannot have been that long. We don't know how long Luke was on Dagobah for sure, but it can't plausibly have been more than a few months, tops, that Han and Leia and Chewie spent limping their way to Bespin and being captured by Vader to set a trap. Even that is pushing it.

No, where Luke fails on Bespin is a lack of tactical sophistication (which takes training and time, even if raw Force power doesn't), maybe swordsmanship (likewise), and wisdom (likewise).

What the years of training were for was to indoctrinate people in the Jedi ideology, more than teach them the actual techniques, I think. Ie, it was to teach them why to use the Force, and how to use it responsibly (according to the views of the Jedi), not because you need a decade or two to learn the basic techniques.

Also this.

I'm pretty sure the old Jedi knights were deliberately training promising young Force adepts more slowly than would otherwise be necessary, in part to avoid the problem of immature children with Jedi-level powers and a lack of Jedi-level control and restraint. Note that when the proto-Jedi did take the field as apprentices, they were often quite young, but clearly had basic competence in the full suite of Jedi abilities if not the full fluency in how to use them.

[ray245]

The biggest point under debate is that the things Rey is doing don't necessarily take as much hard work to learn as you may think.

She uses telepathy against Ren after Ren uses it against her- and Ren is possibly the worst Force adept character in the entire series to win a telepathic brain-wrestling match. Kylo Ren's got so many neuroses, undisciplined reflexes, and weak spots in his character, that he could probably lose a telepathic contest to a cabbage, let alone the positively and definitely opposed will of an untrained Force adept.

She uses a mind trick on a stormtrooper, which is like pushing at an open door given how brainwashed they are. Same issue.

She wins a lightsaber duel against a wounded opponent, when we already have reason to think she is proficient in melee combat using non-lightsaber weapons, and may have been subconsciously channeling the Force to do that because we know powerful Force users do that. Luke did (hence his ability to bullseye womp rats when trained pilots dismissed that as impossible). Anakin did (hence his ability to fly pod racers that humans normally cannot fly, even as a small child). Why not Rey, too?

Past that point, she's got at least cursory training, and cursory training is clearly all it takes, because we know Luke was using the full suite of Jedi abilities on Bespin, if not as proficiently as an experienced Sith.

Well, she surpasses every feat of force power we've seen Yoda use, certainly.

Yoda can apparently control the weather well enough to cause a precision lightning strike. While dead.

"While dead" may be an advantage, not a disadvantage.

As the wise man said, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Rey has... lifted some rocks and done a jedi mind trick. Overperforming relative to her level of training, maybe, but not exactly master in a day.

Agreed. She's holding her own, and her potential may be positively amazing- but she's not master-class.

That said, I'll reiterate my position that, at least for those with a very strong connection to the Force, its not learning how to physically use the Force that takes the years of training. A lot of it seems to be semi-instinctive/intuitive, and tied to the state of mind of the user. We see repeated examples of someone learning to use the Force effectively with very little formal training, in both current canon and the old EU- Luke, Anakin, and Revan in KotOR all come to mind, as well as, obviously, Rey. Rey is probably the fastest learner, but not by that much- Anakin was using the Force to an extent with no training at all, and Luke had very little formal training, unless we assume that Kenobi's ghost was regularly giving him lessons off-screen.

I agree very much with this but oppose using Revan as an example. One of the key plot points of Knights of the Old Republic is that Revan is recovering knowledge, skills, and memories he already possessed. His memory has been wiped, but fragments of it remain, and things like muscle memory come back a lot faster than the specific memories of events.

But that only matters because you're right; Force use IS at least as much a function of intuition and instinct as it is of formal training.

Consider that when Luke goes off having "not completed his training" and attacks Vader on Bespin, there's no clear evidence that Vader has him outclassed on power, even though Vader is a classically trained (if crippled and weakened) Force user with decades of experience, while Luke's direct training under a living master cannot have been that long. We don't know how long Luke was on Dagobah for sure, but it can't plausibly have been more than a few months, tops, that Han and Leia and Chewie spent limping their way to Bespin and being captured by Vader to set a trap. Even that is pushing it.

No, where Luke fails on Bespin is a lack of tactical sophistication (which takes training and time, even if raw Force power doesn't), maybe swordsmanship (likewise), and wisdom (likewise).

What the years of training were for was to indoctrinate people in the Jedi ideology, more than teach them the actual techniques, I think. Ie, it was to teach them why to use the Force, and how to use it responsibly (according to the views of the Jedi), not because you need a decade or two to learn the basic techniques.

Also this.

I'm pretty sure the old Jedi knights were deliberately training promising young Force adepts more slowly than would otherwise be necessary, in part to avoid the problem of immature children with Jedi-level powers and a lack of Jedi-level control and restraint. Note that when the proto-Jedi did take the field as apprentices, they were often quite young, but clearly had basic competence in the full suite of Jedi abilities if not the full fluency in how to use them.

Luke in ESB was warned about using his anger and frustration to tap into the force. Hence the whole dark side is easier, but Jedi needs to learn to be calm, at peace and passive to avoid falling into the Dark side.

Learning to control his emotions was Luke's training. It's about him learning to avoid the Dark Side. Rey? Rey is so awesome that she jumps into the dark side and emerge back from it with no major problem.

[Vendetta]

Luke in ESB was warned about using his anger and frustration to tap into the force. Hence the whole dark side is easier, but Jedi needs to learn to be calm, at peace and passive to avoid falling into the Dark side.

Learning to control his emotions was Luke's training. It's about him learning to avoid the Dark Side. Rey? Rey is so awesome that she jumps into the dark side and emerge back from it with no major problem.

Rey does exactly the same as Luke. She sees a vision of her personal failing (in her case her self-deception about her parents) and makes a terrible choice which she barely escapes from because of it (going to the Supremacy, which she only escapes because Holdo rams it which is rather a distraction).

Trouble with Luke is that he doesn't learn his lesson. Even in the throne room in RotJ he gives in to fear and barely pulls back at the last moment.

[ray245]

Rey does exactly the same as Luke. She sees a vision of her personal failing (in her case her self-deception about her parents) and makes a terrible choice which she barely escapes from because of it (going to the Supremacy, which she only escapes because Holdo rams it which is rather a distraction).

Trouble with Luke is that he doesn't learn his lesson. Even in the throne room in RotJ he gives in to fear and barely pulls back at the last moment.

Luke paid for his mistakes dearly. Rey managed to not suffer any major consequences because of the plot.

[Kojiro]

and makes a terrible choice which she barely escapes from because of it (going to the Supremacy, which she only escapes because Holdo rams it which is rather a distraction)

Barely escapes? We don't even see her escape! Did you see a scene I didn't? What dangers and perils did she encounter that she barely escaped from?

Was it more dangerous for her or Kylo, who was unconscious while she was up and about?

[Simon_Jester]

Rey does exactly the same as Luke. She sees a vision of her personal failing (in her case her self-deception about her parents) and makes a terrible choice which she barely escapes from because of it (going to the Supremacy, which she only escapes because Holdo rams it which is rather a distraction).

Trouble with Luke is that he doesn't learn his lesson. Even in the throne room in RotJ he gives in to fear and barely pulls back at the last moment.

Luke paid for his mistakes dearly. Rey managed to not suffer any major consequences because of the plot.

We'll see if she's still okay in the next movie. Nevertheless, there's a valid point here- If Rey fucks up, Rey fucks up. If Rey doesn't get her hand chopped off for fucking up, it's still Rey fucking up. Let's not move the goalposts here.

Is the complaint that Rey doesn't make mistakes because of her incomplete training to master her emotions? Or is the complaint that Rey doesn't wind up an amputee for those mistakes?

[Gandalf]

How did Luke "pay dearly?" He lost a hand and had a sweet mechanical one not long later.

[Vendetta]

and makes a terrible choice which she barely escapes from because of it (going to the Supremacy, which she only escapes because Holdo rams it which is rather a distraction)

Barely escapes? We don't even see her escape! Did you see a scene I didn't? What dangers and perils did she encounter that she barely escaped from?

Was it more dangerous for her or Kylo, who was unconscious while she was up and about?

Rey walked into the heart of the enemy, with no backup and no plan to escape (even when Luke walked onto the Death Star he was doing so on the assumption that it was getting asploded soon). How do you see her getting out of that situation without someone else completely unexpectedly exploding everything and stopping anyone from concentrating on her.

She did so not because she genuinely had a good reason to think she could rescue Ben Solo, but because she wanted to validate the delusion she held about her parentage. Instead she was forced to admit the truth to herself (what she actually needed to progress her arc) and nearly captured again.


I mean it's basically the whole theme of the film, fight for the right reasons.