Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[The Romulan Republic]

Well... I think in the above context is because, as kind of shown, the 'Force' is making BOTH light as well as Dark force users so that there's always 'Balance' between the two sides.

I do kind of wish those lines of Luke's about a balance of Light and Dark were cut- I believe I've made my views on the moral relativist equation of the Light and Dark Side some fans seem to push quite clear.

That said, it was a fairly minor element of the film for the amount of time devoted to it, and the film seems to come down more in the end in favour of the conventional Light Side=good, Dark Side=evil interpretation. Like a lot of things about TLJ, its somewhat ambiguous (perhaps deliberately so)- I think you could read it a lot of different ways if you wanted to.

The down side being the damage that is causd as the pendulum swings between one group rising into ascendance over the other.

Well, that's life. Nothing remains unchanged forever. I don't know that that's a sign of malevolence on the part of the Force- just proof that the Force either can't or won't maintain a state of perfect galactic Utopia constantly.

The Sith use weapons of mass destruction to grasp the galxy in their metal fists.

The Jedi and their allies (And unfortunate collateral damage) as they drive the Sith back into the sdarkness, freeing every one. (Except the force sensitive people who are removed from their families and other rather intrusive 'For the greater good' policies the Jedi council have shown to act upon)

One thing I do like about this film is that it makes a point of noting that "Light Side" and Jedi (particularly the Prequel Order) are not synonymous terms.

Like a lot of people, I've found, who paint the Force, or the Light Side, as malevolent and destructive, you are making the mistake of conflating "Jedi" with "Light Side"- they are not synonymous.

The Force is a universal metaphysical... force, or entity (depending on your interpretation and how much consciousness and intent you ascribe to it). The Jedi are merely one organization that attempts to follow the Light Side- the Jedi (much less the specific rules and practices of the Late Old Republic Jedi) do not have a monopoly on it.

In fact, if TLJ has an overall point or message, its that we should hold to our ideals, without being bound to outdated structures and symbols. Perhaps most blatantly illustrated in Yoda's talk with Luke- he does not repudiate the Light Side, or even the Jedi, but basically tells Luke to stop thinking in terms of the symbolism and structure of the old Jedi Order (either by adhering to it, or fearing it and trying to reject anything associated with it).

Which is admittedly hypocritical, coming from Yoda, but I like that Yoda is probably the character who grows most in consistently in their views over the course of the films.

ONLY for the Sith to begin their inevitable rise to power again.

Rinse/repeat, seemingly forever.

Interestingly, Kylo by the end doesn't seem to regard himself as a Sith. Though the difference may be largely one of semantics.

I was just offering a comment to Kojiro about how West End games dealt with things.

Back in the day when any one creating anything for the setting HAD to make sure it passed Lucas' (Or who ever) seal of aproval that it 'Matched'. (Yeah, I know that it was still some times pretty hit and miss. )

Indeed. I think there are... about five things from the old EU (that haven't been retconned back in) that I regret losing. At most.

[The Romulan Republic]

So, I saw the movie again, and I have to say, I'm glad that I did. I had an overall more positive impression of it the second time around, and noticed a lot of things I missed on the first go. Some of that might be just rationalization (because I really want to like a new Star Wars film), or getting accustomed to it, but I think that this film gets more criticism than it deserves.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but I feel like they tried to do something very ambitious- to simultaneously deconstruct, and reconstruct, Star Wars for the 21st. Century. In doing so, they took a lot of risks, and they did some things that were rather jarringly out of step with the previous films, stylistically (and in some cases arguably continuity errors).

The thing about risks, of course, is that they don't always pay off, but I applaud them for being willing to take risks and try something different, rather than stick to safely-trodden ground. I also appreciate that the film addresses head-on the tendency towards cynical moral ambivilance and apathy in our society, and ultimately seems to say that we can and should hold onto our idealism, without being bound by outdated symbols or structures.

I think the film is a bit confusing at times, and a lot of the nuances are easy to miss, in part because it is deliberately ambiguous (as in its depiction of the nature of the Force), and goes out of its way to misdirect and surprise the audience on various occasions (such as the fake out of Rose's and Leia's "deaths", or Kylo Ren's potential redemption). There are some things that make me cringe, certainly (like the ship-y vibe in some of the Kylo/Rey scenes, or the dumber attempts at humour, or some of the little idiosyncracies of dialog or how the technology or the Force works that seem at odd with prior films). And I am very undecided on the issue of Rey's parentage, still.

But I also picked up on a lot of things I liked the second time around. For example, I saw more of the old Luke in Hamill's performance, and while Snoke is a fairly flat character, there is nothing to fault in Andy Serkis's performance either. I also emphatically disagree with comments I've seen that Finn has no arc, or does nothing, in this film. Its hard to see unless you're looking for it, because its scattered amid a lot of other stuff and contributes little to the ultimate resolution of the story, but I think that Finn's development here follows a logical trajectory from TFA.

In TFA, Finn started out as a scarred young man, who was probably pretty much acting on impulse/instinct when he decided not to fire on civilians at the First Order's command. His subsequent defection was likely driven more by fear than by principle, and he latched on to Poe and the Resistance simply because he needed Poe's help to escape. He's not a bad person, and he pretty much volunteered to help Rey and try to complete Poe's mission, but throughout the film he's basically running- he says to Rey himself that he doesn't think the First Order can be beaten.

His feelings for Rey eventually give him the incentive to take a stand, however- the turning point in his character is when he runs after Rey when Kylo Ren captures her. He subsequently orchestrates a rescue mission, and is even prepared to face down Kylo Ren on her behalf, when he feels that he has nothing left to lose. He's developed from being a scarred man on the run, to having something to fight for and taking the initiative. But he's still really just concerned with Rey, and maybe Poe- he has no real investment in the Resistance's Cause, except insofar as they can help him save himself and his friends.

TLJ picks up with him still at that point- his first thought on waking from his injuries is "where's Rey", and he's immediately ready to jump ship to try to help Rey, believing the Resistance's cause is doomed. This is where Rose comes in. She calls him selfish, and while that might be somewhat unfair, she is correct that Finn is not committed to the Resistance's cause. He sort of acknowledges as much himself earlier, when he denies her claim that he's a hero of the Resistance.

That's the main point of his interactions with Rose, I think, besides setting up a potential love-triangle with Rey and allowing for some comic side-antics away from the more serious main plot. He gets to know someone in the Resistance, someone who believes in their cause. Gets to experience the galaxy from her point of view. And by the end of the film, he has embraced the role of "hero of the Resistance" that she saw him as. He's gone from simply running in blind fear, to having a single person he's willing to fight for, to now having a larger cause that he believes in. That is the point (besides being an obvious shout-out to RotJ) of his "Rebel scum" line to Phasma, cheesy as it was. Its him saying that he has now chosen a side, and believes in a cause, and embraces his role as a Resistance fighter. Same with his repudiating the hacker's "both sides" cynicism.

Of course, the film (with typical ambiguity) also shows the other side of this when it critiques his attempted suicidal last stand in the final battle. But I do think that there is a clear arc for Finn here, if one that you have to parse the film fairly carefully to see.

Ultimately, I think that this is a film worth seeing twice, even if you hated it the first time, because its somewhat jarring in how it plays against expectations, and there are a lot of things that might get missed the first time around (though that is in part the film's fault for being somewhat awkwardly-constructed, in my opinion).

Its not surprising that the film would be met with a lot of hostility, since its a film that you have to be a fan to fully appreciate, but which at the same time will seem like a slap in the face to many fans, particularly the OT "purists" and those of the "change is bad" mentality. Its not the film I would have made, or chosen to see made, and even now, there are several things about it that I would probably change.

But not being the film I would have made does not make it a bad film.

[GuppyShark]

Just a though: does Leia fall behind the accelerating cruiser? Her self TK is doubly impressive if she outpaces a cruiser doing it.

Likewise can we judge the cruiser's acceraltion from this at all?

The charitable interpretation is that the loss of that command bridge caused the throttle to temporarily cut, so there was not active acceleration at the time. The realistic interpretation is that they weren't thinking of the physics because this a space opera.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Just a though: does Leia fall behind the accelerating cruiser? Her self TK is doubly impressive if she outpaces a cruiser doing it.

Likewise can we judge the cruiser's acceraltion from this at all?

You know the answer to both those questions is "nope". You know this film doesn;t understand acceleration or distance or anything like that. The "faster" cruiser is under continuous thrust yet never gains any distance on the slower Imperials or on Leia. If not for the Mineral Planet Crait, you would have every reason to believe everything was standing still.

[The Romulan Republic]

Just a though: does Leia fall behind the accelerating cruiser? Her self TK is doubly impressive if she outpaces a cruiser doing it.

Likewise can we judge the cruiser's acceraltion from this at all?

You know the answer to both those questions is "nope". You know this film doesn;t understand acceleration or distance or anything like that. The "faster" cruiser is under continuous thrust yet never gains any distance on the slower Imperials or on Leia. If not for the Mineral Planet Crait, you would have every reason to believe everything was standing still.

Maybe so, but it hardly seems fair to give this film a hard time for it when plenty of other, far more beloved SF films do things just as (or far more) egregious (like the nigh-omnipresent sound in space).

[Patroklos]

The more jarring question is Leia lateral distance. Given the violence of the decompression and then the explosion, leia should be bufned to a crisp and have every bone in her body broken. Even assuming Raddus was at her max flee velocity and vector at her ejection (so she would be too) her lateral separation should have been dozens to hundreds of km before her reactivation.

And to be honest given the exotic weapons and drives in her vicinity the vacuum and cold are hardly her only exposure worries...

But let's get real fellas. These dumbasses opens single separation door to hard vacuum. This is something every one season throwaway TV sci-fi season gets right, but this billion dollar shit show fucks up. They just don't care.

[GuppyShark]

I'm really torn on whether to even take nuWars seriously. Rogue One was an authentic Star Wars movie, TFA I could squint and endure its failings because of the nostalgia factor and I genuinely enjoyed the progressive cast (I heart Rey) and was tantalised by the opportunity it delivered.

Opportunity that the next director failed to capitalise on, because he had to 'subvert' our 'expectations' while still delivering an inferior version of the same movie from the original trilogy. What expectation was actually subverted? That the grumpy old Jedi master living in seclusion would not want to train the new generation of Jedi? That's ESB Yoda, and a classic cinematic staple. That the Rebels would be betrayed by a random scoundrel they encountered? That's ESB Lando. That Phasma would be relevant in this movie, despite literally never having been relevant ever? That's the general audience laughing at some weirdos who got excited about a shiny action figure.

"It's salt" isn't a witty comeback, its an admission that you can't make a movie that isn't a reference to something better.

[Gandalf]

If Rogue One was an "authentic" Star Wars film, are there inauthentic ones?

[tezunegari]

If Rogue One was an "authentic" Star Wars film, are there inauthentic ones?

The non-existent Holiday special
Caravan of Courage
The Ewok Adventure

[GuppyShark]

If Rogue One was an "authentic" Star Wars film, are there inauthentic ones?

Yes.

From a certain point of view.

EDIT: There were six films, and 'canon' sources to be consistent with in order to qualify for authentiicity.

[The Romulan Republic]

There are currently ten canon films (I don't refuse to accept a film simply because it doesn't fit my idealized definition of Star Wars).

Those films are:

The Phantom Menace.
Attack of the Clones.
The Clone Wars (animated film).
Revenge of the Sith.
Rogue One.
A New Hope.
The Empire Strikes Back.
Return of the Jedi.
The Force Awakens.
The Last Jedi.

Another point in TLJ's favour-

I'm no music critic, but... when I saw TFA, I recall not being terribly impressed by most of the soundtrack, aside from Rey's theme, which l liked. But I felt that John Williams was back more to his usual standard for Star Wars films this time around (even if some of that is reusing pieces from prior films, the choices were well-made). For new compositions, I particularly liked the piece that plays when Luke goes out to confront Ren.

[Crazedwraith]

Eleven! The Clone Wars film. It was released theatrically. I don't exclude films just because they are unpopular and forgettable!

[The Romulan Republic]

Eleven! The Clone Wars film. It was released theatrically. I don't exclude films just because they are unpopular and forgettable!

Yeah, its on the list. And yeah, it sucked. I actually rank it below Phantom Menace as the worst of the lot.

The jump in quality from the movie to some of the later episodes of the series is striking.

Edit: Some of these are very close calls, but I think I would tentatively rate the films, from best to worst, as follows:

Very Good:

Empire Strikes Back.
Return of the Jedi.
A New Hope.

Mediocre or Uneven:

The Last Jedi.
The Force Awakens.
Rogue One.
Attack of the Clones.
Revenge of the Sith.

Poor:

Phantom Menace.
The Clone Wars.

Though obviously some of that is subjective, and is somewhat flexible- for example, I could very easily switch up most of the middle category based on my mood at the moment. I could also probably bump Phantom Menace up to the mediocre category, or reverse A New Hope and RotJ.

[Crazedwraith]

Whoops. And i thought I'd double checked before making that joke. I somehow mentally thought all the sequel trilogy was out.

Mea culpea.

[The Romulan Republic]

The more jarring question is Leia lateral distance. Given the violence of the decompression and then the explosion, leia should be bufned to a crisp and have every bone in her body broken.

A degree of superhuman durability for Force users has some pretty strong precedent in canon, I believe.

Even assuming Raddus was at her max flee velocity and vector at her ejection (so she would be too) her lateral separation should have been dozens to hundreds of km before her reactivation.

Perhaps, though I would ask weather we know how much time passed- my impression was mere seconds.

And to be honest given the exotic weapons and drives in her vicinity the vacuum and cold are hardly her only exposure worries...

Is there any evidence of those weapons having effects like radiation that would make it dangerous to be in their proximity? We've seen people standing in the vicinity of starships in flight/in combat before in canon.

But let's get real fellas. These dumbasses opens single separation door to hard vacuum. This is something every one season throwaway TV sci-fi season gets right, but this billion dollar shit show fucks up. They just don't care.

Um... do we actually know that they opened a door directly to vaccume? If Leia opened one door, and then they opened the next one...

That scene went by pretty fast. I'd have to watch it again to say for sure.

[The Romulan Republic]

You know, it just occurred to me that TLJ managed the rather impressive feat of both delivering much of what I said I was afraid of, and much of what I said I really wanted, in the next Star Wars film. For example:

Afraid of:

-Retconned Rey's parentage.
-Stupid Light Side/Dark Side balance crap (albeit toned down).

Wanted:

-Leia using the Force/kicking ass.
-Overall idealism and likeable characters (with some glaring exceptions, I admit).
-Major space battle with more capital ship focus.
-More Phasma (not as much as they could have done, but still better than TFA).
-A Master Luke worthy of the name (if only at the very end), and a fitting death for the character.

[Crazedwraith]

Retcon is a bit of strong word considering TFA established nothing. Didn't go the way you hoped maybe.

Turns out in Rey's force vision you see her getting sold to Platt.

[The Romulan Republic]

Retcon is a bit of strong word considering TFA established nothing. Didn't go the way you hoped maybe.

Turns out in Rey's force vision you see her getting sold to Platt.

Yeah, I guess its not technically a retcon. But it was so heavily implied...

I guess "frustrating bait and switch" might be more accurate.

[DesertFly]

Apropos of nothing, when I watched TLJ for the first time and got to the end scene with Luke facing down the First Order bombardment, I felt certain that he was actually unscathed throughout it. Even after it was revealed that he was projecting himself, I still maintain that the Jedi Master Luke Skywalker that we got in this film could have survived that attack even if he was physically there.

What I'm saying is that I'm satisfied with his power level in this movie. On a related note, I don't entirely buy that he died at the end because he had used up his "life force" doing the astral walking at the end. Instead, I feel that he finally, after 50+ years, felt 100% at peace with the Force, and let himself be drawn into it. That's why he saw a vision of the twin suns: not because they were actually there, but because they represented the beginning and the end of his journey. A bookend, if you will.

I'm still not a big fan of him turning his lightsaber on over Ben Solo, even if it's only for a moment. I'd have been happier if Ben seeing Luke threatening him was corruption by Snoke.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I just got back from seeing the film for the first time and I can see why the reviews are so polarised- Rey spends half the film trying to convince Luke to get off his ass and do something, which he does only after most of the Rebels have been killed.

Same deal for the Holdo who only decides to hyperspace-ram Snoke's ship after most of the transports have been blown away. I think the most pointless part of the film though was the whole trip to Canto Bight and back, their mission ended in total failure and got most of the remaining rebels killed.

The action on Crait was similarly pointless, with a bunch of lopsided piece-of-shit speeders that accomplish nothing- even Finn's planned heroic sacrifice to take out the siege cannon was stopped. How did he manage to drag the unconscious Rose all the way back to the base anyway, they had to be several miles out? The highlight of that was definitely Rey and Chewie showing up to pick off all the TIE fighters.

[Patroklos]

Remember when Han, Chewie, plus an extra force sensitive gunner, has a hard time destroying four TIE fighters. And Han was so proud of his work that he was all bragging and carrying on. Yet he was informed by Leia (and she was right), that what he was so proud of was actually the Empire throwing it? That Han's idea of a great accomplishment is him beating a half ass attack.

Someone posted earlier about power/ability inflation. This is a good example.

[fractalsponge1]

Remember when Han, Chewie, plus an extra force sensitive gunner, has a hard time destroying four TIE fighters. And Han was so proud of his work that he was all bragging and carrying on. Yet he was informed by Leia (and she was right), that what he was so proud of was actually the Empire throwing it? That Han's idea of a great accomplishment is him beating a half ass attack.

Someone posted earlier about power/ability inflation. This is a good example.

All of the new trilogy is an example of power inflation. Take the original example, replace and make more extreme in some fashion. It'd be funny if it weren't so cack-handed.

[Patroklos]

Its a bit less obvious than "now we have TWO super ships" and "our STARKILLER is 100x he size of the DEATH STAR!!!"

They can't even keep proportion in the throw away action transition scenes. That MF pass at the end of TLJ that someone was just praising is of no consequence to the film, yet it showcases skill seen nowhere in the pre-nuWars movies except MAYBE the climaxes. A simply fly by has to rival the RotJ DS run which was supposedly the finale of the trilogy and franchise at the time because film makers these days can't understand scope and scale. It was the cardinal sin of the prequels after all.

I am glad the toned down the light-saber porn at least. Well, even the Snoke thrown room thing doesn't rival the prequels. But they could have had a dozen TOTALLY AWSOME HIAR DO AND TATTOO FACED = EVAL knights of Ren pop out for some good ole Genenosis Jedi melee. Its not too late though...

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Remember when Han, Chewie, plus an extra force sensitive gunner, has a hard time destroying four TIE fighters. And Han was so proud of his work that he was all bragging and carrying on. Yet he was informed by Leia (and she was right), that what he was so proud of was actually the Empire throwing it? That Han's idea of a great accomplishment is him beating a half ass attack.

Someone posted earlier about power/ability inflation. This is a good example.

All of the new trilogy is an example of power inflation. Take the original example, replace and make more extreme in some fashion. It'd be funny if it weren't so cack-handed.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who could see how it was a rehash of the Battle of Hoth, minus the tow cables.

[Patroklos]

It was so much so they had to have a dude look at the camera and tell you it's TOTALLY NOT Hoth. I can't think of a more self-conscious insecurity openly inserted into a feature film.