Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[K. A. Pital]

The local enforcement or whatever is OK with FO customers in the open - might not remember film well nuff, but it looked that way, while rebel symbols are something shunned. If not banned outright. There are reasons to see that their allegiances weren‘t Republican - maybe it was that way even before Republic got wrecked

What hyperbole though? Canto got rich on arms trade. Does not mean every casino visitor is an arms dealer, but it is very much possible to get rich on arms trade even with illegal paramil factions.

There is nothing suggesting the New Republic had an iron grip on arms trade.

[Patroklos]

So wait there is almost slavery, FO goons openly circling everywhere but you did not get the message Canto was not under Republic jurisdiction? And I mean, even if it was, the Republic’s “poof”! Gone.

We are told the Repubic is in charge in TFA's opening crawl in the exact same way we are told the Empire is in ANH, there is no mention of it only having some part of the galaxy or some such in either case. Were we supposed to assume the Empire didn't control the galaxy either. It they wanted a rump Empire or wobbly NR that would have been awesome, but as has been established world building isn't nuWARS's thing. The Empire was defeated in RotJ, the Republic is what we are given in its place. Not only that, but we are told in the same crawl the FO rose from the Empires ashes AFTER Luke's disappearance, so presumable there was a long portion of time where no such evil entity contested the Republic at all. I don't remember if they tell us how long Luke's been gone, but since Kylo wasn't born as of RotJ and he looks to be in his twenties when Luke's temple gets burned down, that's multiple decades that the FO wasn't a thing. The movie gives us nothing to insert in between, and thanks to the Lucus fucking with the RotJ the message is the Empire just disappeared post Endor.

And the Republic is gone? I mean their capital got blown up, but only like 12 hours ago. Something tells me things haven't collapsed into anarchy in 12 hours. It appears the Sullustian shrimp merchant still got to Canto on time for the casino cocktail hour, OH THE CHAOS.

The timeline is pretty damn ridiculous, and I would contest it has to be that short based on what we see, but what we do know is that the FO "decimated" the Republic since the last movie regardless of the time frame. People often think that sounds impressive, and despite the suggestion that the writers know language they obviously thought the same. But it just means 1/10th, so the vast majority of the NR is untouched by the FO at the time of the movie. And that could just mean forces, not territory, so it might be much less than 1/10th (but then where is the other 90% of the NR fleet?)

If you wanted some vast swath of wild space or independent neutral factions I would say that's a great idea. The movie establishes none of this.

Message was OK. Galaxy is in anarchy. Rebels and FO are just paramil factions, lots of profit to be made on selling shit to them.

As black marketeers, yes.

State analogies do not explain adequately. I brought up Lord of War for a reason. It also dealt with state collapse which opened huge stocks of advanced weaponry to unscrupulous sellers. See a parallel there with New Repubs getting wiped out last film? Well, there.

What collapse? From 12 hours ago? Not particularly relevant

If you mean from the Empire's collapse 30 years ago, we don't see the HAXOR show us weapons from that era when cataloguing what was sold. And we see very little used from that era buy the supposed buyers either. Both Rebels and FO are using mostly new gear.

As to whether it could be improved upon - sure. But it works as is, too, this pathetic “but what bout legal trade” shit is just funny, childish and nauseating.

The movie is the one talking about mainstream industrialists doing this, ie the legal trade, not me. They don't say gangsters or crime syndicates or rogue factions, they say corporations and have them doing it right out in the open. If you think that's funny and childish, we are on the same page.

A true black market, a la Jabba, is the route they should have gone if they insist of not giving us a proper accounting of the state of the galaxy.

[Crazedwraith]

What hyperbole though? Canto got rich on arms trade. Does not mean every casino visitor is an arms dealer, but it is very much possible to get rich on arms trade even with illegal paramil factions.

Very possible. But it's not the only way. Rose literally said that the ONLY way to get that rich was arms dealing to the FO. Implying literally everyone there was an arms dealer.

That's what I'm calling hyperbole.

[Vympel]

We are told the Repubic is in charge in TFA's opening crawl in the exact same way we are told the Empire is in ANH, there is no mention of it only having some part of the galaxy or some such in either case. Were we supposed to assume the Empire didn't control the galaxy either. It they wanted a rump Empire or wobbly NR that would have been awesome, but as has been established world building isn't nuWARS's thing. The Empire was defeated in RotJ, the Republic is what we are given in its place. Not only that, but we are told in the same crawl the FO rose from the Empires ashes AFTER Luke's disappearance, so presumable there was a long portion of time where no such evil entity contested the Republic at all. I don't remember if they tell us how long Luke's been gone, but since Kylo wasn't born as of RotJ and he looks to be in his twenties when Luke's temple gets burned down, that's multiple decades that the FO wasn't a thing. The movie gives us nothing to insert in between, and thanks to the Lucus fucking with the RotJ the message is the Empire just disappeared post Endor.

Given what TFA's opening crawl (i.e. Leia leads the Resistance with the support of the New Republic) and the rest of the film actually tells us (i.e. Hux's speechifies about the Republic lying about its support for the Resistance), it's blindingly obvious to anyone actually paying attention that the New Republic doesn't control the whole galaxy.

The timeline is pretty damn ridiculous, and I would contest it has to be that short based on what we see, but what we do know is that the FO "decimated" the Republic since the last movie regardless of the time frame. People often think that sounds impressive, and despite the suggestion that the writers know language they obviously thought the same. But it just means 1/10th, so the vast majority of the NR is untouched by the FO at the time of the movie. And that could just mean forces, not territory, so it might be much less than 1/10th (but then where is the other 90% of the NR fleet?)

Oh for fuck's sake, read a fucking dictionary.

"Hurr durr, Imma use the definition like I'm a Roman Consul".

https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/201 ... one-tenth/

[Patroklos]

Given what TFA's opening crawl (i.e. Leia leads the Resistance with the support of the New Republic) and the rest of the film actually tells us (i.e. Hux's speechifies about the Republic lying about its support for the Resistance), it's blindingly obvious to anyone actually paying attention that the New Republic doesn't control the whole galaxy.

And the Rebellion existed in ANH, did the Empire not control the whole galaxy then?

Your quibbling is self defeating, your argument is that since there is a militia group somewhere in montana the US can't be described as controlling the continental US. Or that because that militia group exists, we can't assume a random ritzy tourist city somewhere else in the country is under government control. The more you contort yourself to justify these things the more you expose the failure of the movie.

The timeline is pretty damn ridiculous, and I would contest it has to be that short based on what we see, but what we do know is that the FO "decimated" the Republic since the last movie regardless of the time frame. People often think that sounds impressive, and despite the suggestion that the writers know language they obviously thought the same. But it just means 1/10th, so the vast majority of the NR is untouched by the FO at the time of the movie. And that could just mean forces, not territory, so it might be much less than 1/10th (but then where is the other 90% of the NR fleet?)

Jesus, even when you are right you can't help but be wrong. I did not say they were using it in is punitive sense, and even if you want to say "large portion" instead of 1/10th that /= most, a majority, or even more than a tenth given its imprecision. What it most certainly doesn't mean is ALL, which brings us back to the fact that the NR fleet or the NR itself is still very much relevantly in existence.

And if you want to lean on whatever the maximum interpretation you can, I say again TWELVE HOURS. Starkiller base is destroyed, all the FO primaries and at least two of their largest ships are busy with the Rebels, yet somehow they have decimated the NR in half a day? If you want to say Starkiller's stike is included in that fine, but that only works if they are only describing the NR fleet (as fucking stupid is saying they are all at unnammed capital as that is). The crawl says the the FO decimated "The Republic," not its fleet. Do you want us to believe the Republic was three of four systems so that description makes any sense?

[K. A. Pital]

It was pretty clear even the Empire did not control the whole galaxy.

Otherwise where from did the Rebels get these 3km long Mon Cal ships??

Put simply, did the film say Canto belonged to the New Republic? In any way?

[Vympel]

And the Rebellion existed in ANH, did the Empire not control the whole galaxy then?

Your quibbling is self defeating, your argument is that since there is a militia group somewhere in montana the US can't be described as controlling the continental US. Or that because that militia group exists, we can't assume a random ritzy tourist city somewhere else in the country is under government control. The more you contort yourself to justify these things the more you expose the failure of the movie.

I like it how you just restate your original assertion in a new form without even bothering to engage with the substance of what I said. Clearly, if the New Republic feels the need to a: use the Resistance as its catspaw as opposed to fighting the First Order directly and b: actually lie about whether it supports the Resistance, this is obvious evidence that the New Republic does not control or purport to control the whole galaxy, because the above is not behavior consistent with that control (or even pretensions to that control), and a blatant point of difference with the behavior of the Galactic Empire towards the Rebellion.

But please, restate your original assertion a third time, I'm sure it'll work.

Jesus, even when you are right you can't help but be wrong. I did not say they were using it in is punitive sense, and even if you want to say "large portion" instead of 1/10th that /= most, a majority, or even more than a tenth given its imprecision. What it most certainly doesn't mean is ALL, which brings us back to the fact that the NR fleet or the NR itself is still very much relevantly in existence.

Whoopdeeshit? The opening crawl also says that only the Resistance stand against the rising tyranny. The meaning of the opening crawl is obvious. Nitpicking the definition of "decimate" to pretend that the New Republic is somehow still around in some militarily effective form is just ridiculous.

[Shroom Man 777]

My goodness - rhetoric is lost on people. One could say 9/11 or Pearl Harbor devastated, decimated, etc. America, that doesn't mean every trailer park and townsville's reduced to ash. The New Republic's central gov't and defense force was at the places wrecked by Starkiller Base, so what's the big deal about "decimate?" Fucking hell. Nerds.

[Patroklos]

It was pretty clear even the Empire did not control the whole galaxy.

Otherwise where from did the Rebels get these 3km long Mon Cal ships??

Put simply, did the film say Canto belonged to the New Republic? In any way?

Having some rebels doesn't mean you don't control territory unless they outright decide to hold it. Plenty of rebel groups throughout history operate from within government controlled territory. Its more the norm than the exception.

And the Mon Cal cruisers have been a plot hole long discussed/derided/excused. At some point the EU wanted to have its cake and eat it too. Have a galaxy encompassing Empire with no conventional rivals yet also have worlds that inexplicably get to be openly defiant. I make no excuses for this. If it were just the movies in cannon I would say that between ESB and RotJ the Rebels made their move to call all their supporters and cells to openly defy the Empire for push just like we saw at Endor not unlike Moaist Revelutionary Warfare doctrine of transitioning to phase three. The EU says otherwise, and we are stuck with an Empire who pre Endor is in the main portrayed as unbeatable and irresistible (which gives our Rebel hero's accomplishments gravity) except when our primaries need it not to be.

Did the OT movies explicitly say Alderaan belonged to the Empire in any way? Any planet for that matter? Oh well, I guess no planets belong to the Empire.

[Shroom Man 777]

And the Rebellion existed in ANH, did the Empire not control the whole galaxy then?

Your quibbling is self defeating, your argument is that since there is a militia group somewhere in montana the US can't be described as controlling the continental US. Or that because that militia group exists, we can't assume a random ritzy tourist city somewhere else in the country is under government control. The more you contort yourself to justify these things the more you expose the failure of the movie.

I like it how you just restate your original assertion in a new form without even bothering to engage with the substance of what I said. Clearly, if the New Republic feels the need to a: use the Resistance as its catspaw as opposed to fighting the First Order directly and b: actually lie about whether it supports the Resistance, this is obvious evidence that the New Republic does not control or purport to control the whole galaxy, because the above is not behavior consistent with that control, and a blatant point of difference with the behavior of the Galactic Empire towards the Rebellion.

But please, restate your original assertion a third time, I'm sure it'll work.

"Control" can mean a lot of things. For example, the old Republic circa TPM covers the whole galaxy, supposedly controls it, yet we can see that its grasp was way looser than that of the Empire's. The New Republic's all soft and stuff so...

But OMG the word "control" nerdnerdnerd gasp assuming control is a spherical mass of iron how many gigajoules is the control worth.

jesus christ

[Patroklos]

I like it how you just restate your original assertion in a new form without even bothering to engage with the substance of what I said. Clearly, if the New Republic feels the need to a: use the Resistance as its catspaw as opposed to fighting the First Order directly and b: actually lie about whether it supports the Resistance, this is obvious evidence that the New Republic does not control or purport to control the whole galaxy, because the above is not behavior consistent with that control, and a blatant point of difference with the behavior of the Galactic Empire towards the Rebellion.

You are of course right, but that only establishes some small portion is controlled by the FO. Unlike in ANH the FO was never characterized or shown as an insurgency. The original question at hand now that we have cut through your BS is if Canto is in in the FO, the NR, or some third party. Since Rose is walking around in Rebel military uniform after open hostilities are declared it certainly isn't an FO controlled world.

That leaves us the NR. Because no other political entity is mentioned in either nuWARS movie. The Republic is the successor state to the galaxy wide Empire, which was the successor state to the galaxy wide Old Republic. The FO is the only other party ever mentioned and that as a newcomer rival.

Whoopdeeshit? The opening crawl also says that only the Resistance stand against the rising tyranny. The meaning of the opening crawl is obvious. Nitpicking the definition of "decimate" to pretend that the New Republic is somehow still around in some militarily effective form is just ridiculous.

Except they did say decimate instead of saying, say

"The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having destroyed the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deploys the merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Words have meaning, as you so unhelpfully for yourself reminded me. They deliberately chose one that explicitly does not mean something is completely, or even mostly, no longer in existance. Your concession that decimate doesn't mean what you want it to mean is noted. Enjoy your head cannon.

[K. A. Pital]

Having some rebels doesn't mean you don't control territory unless they outright decide to hold it. Plenty of rebel groups throughout history operate from within government controlled territory. Its more the norm than the exception.

And the Mon Cal cruisers have been a plot hole long discussed/derided/excused. At some point the EU wanted to have its cake and eat it too. Have a galaxy encompassing Empire with no conventional rivals yet also have worlds that inexplicably get to be openly defiant. I make no excuses for this. If it were just the movies in cannon I would say that between ESB and RotJ the Rebels made their move to call all their supporters and cells to openly defy the Empire for push just like we saw at Endor not unlike Moaist Revelutionary Warfare doctrine of transitioning to phase three. The EU says otherwise, and we are stuck with an Empire who pre Endor is in the main portrayed as unbeatable and irresistible (which gives our Rebel hero's accomplishments gravity) except when our primaries need it not to be.

Did the OT movies explicitly say Alderaan belonged to the Empire in any way? Any planet for that matter? Oh well, I guess no planets belong to the Empire.

What a load of bullshit.

So, Mon Cal ships are a plothole. You know what else is a plothole? Star Wars. And who the fuck gives a damn about the EU? For fuck‘s sake, it is gone, and the ships were in the film. No EU. Full stop.

Now we go further. TLJ says the Republic is gone. No need to invent shit here, it just collapsed, its administration is wiped out in entirety. Centralization and all that.

Canto could‘ve been selling weapons to FO way before TLJ too, because it is never stated that the New Republic controls the galaxy firmly. Not even on Old Republic levels where you have a private corp occupying a planet that belongs to the Republic and shit, New Rep is even worse with this. They fear some fucking neofascists in the Rim! So they can‘t go to war with them. Don‘t sound like a very stable govt to me.

So yes, under the circumstances it means the corporations could even have PLOTTED the New Republic‘s demise, if we go a bit further and think about what happened.

But sure, private companies would not fund and help Nazis to come to power oh wait

[Vympel]

You are of course right, but that only establishes some small portion is controlled by the FO. Unlike in ANH the FO was never characterized or shown as an insurgency. The original question at hand now that we have cut through your BS is if Canto is in in the FO, the NR, or some third party. Since Rose is walking around in Rebel military uniform after open hostilities are declared it certainly isn't an FO controlled world.

That leaves us the NR. Because no other political entity is mentioned in either nuWARS movie. The Republic is the successor state to the galaxy wide Empire, which was the successor state to the galaxy wide Old Republic. The FO is the only other party ever mentioned and that as a newcomer rival.

What dictates that Canto Bight must be a New Republic world? What evidence or reason to believe is there that the New Republic has control of every inhabited system in the galaxy which the First Order doesn't? Zero.

Or did you think that after the collapse of the tyrannical Galactic Empire every single planet under its thumb - including but not limited to the former members of the Separatists - would rush to join the New Republic as opposed to simply choosing independence?

Except they did say decimate instead of saying, say

"The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having destroyed the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deploys the merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Words have meaning, as you so unhelpfully for yourself reminded me. They deliberately chose one that explicitly does not mean something is completely, or even mostly, no longer in existance.

Your concession that decimate doesn't mean what you want it to mean is noted. Enjoy your head cannon.

ROFLMAO. Shroom called it correctly - its the "how many gigajoules are in decimation" mode of analysis. What a sad way to go through life.

Oh - and decimate also means "kill" or "destroy". Again, read a dictionary:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/decimate

[Patroklos]

So, Mon Cal ships are a plothole. You know what else is a plothole? Star Wars. And who the fuck gives a damn about the EU? For fuck‘s sake, it is gone, and the ships were in the film. No EU. Full stop.

I have said before, simple people like simple things. You are one such person.

Yes, the Mon Cals, AS THE EU LATER DESCRIBES THEM, are a giant plothole. In the films there is any number of plausible reasons why ships like that might exist. They could be recent defections form planetary defense fleets. They could be leftovers from some Clone Wars faction (because the clone wars didn't mean what they did now back then). They could have been freighters up gunned by the rebels like they ended up being but without the specifics of what made the world Mon Cala such a plot hole.

All we see in ESB is that there is a fleet of ships the Rebels have. At no point in the movies do they become the "super awesome cruise ship conversions that are BETTER than ISDs!!!". Ackbar himself tells us this straight up. They are just some hulks that from what we see have no other purpose than to ferry fighters around.

Now we go further. TLJ says the Republic is gone. No need to invent shit here, it just collapsed, its administration is wiped out in entirety. Centralization and all that.

At no point are we told this. We are explicitly told this is not the case. And that's stupid besides, so it deserves derision either way.

Canto could‘ve been selling weapons to FO way before TLJ too, because it is never stated that the New Republic controls the galaxy firmly. Not even on Old Republic levels where you have a private corp occupying a planet that belongs to the Republic and shit, New Rep is even worse with this. They fear some fucking neofascists in the Rim! So they can‘t go to war with them. Don‘t sound like a very stable govt to me.

Canto doing this all during TLJ wasn't my idea. I simply said that they way TLJ went about things was stupid. Having actual public corporations and their public CEOs getting rich from selling arms to the Rebublic's chief rival to the point they are the riches people in the galaxy and flaunting it as an open secret is stupid and makes the Republic and everyone in it stupid and thus a good subset of our main characters stupid. Nobody wants to root for stupid people, or cares when they die. A black market solution that doesn't include Space Musk as a conspirator, one that doesn't try and say they are supplying the FOs primary armaments as well, is a better plot device.

So yes, under the circumstances it means the corporations could even have PLOTTED the New Republic‘s demise, if we go a bit further and think about what happened.

But sure, private companies would not fund and help Nazis to come to power oh wait

Please do tell, which companies OUTSIDE OF GERMANY provided the Nazi's primary armaments? And also became the richest people in the world doing so. And also did so openly AFTER their home country was in open warfare. Who were so overt about it that some random near girl from a mine knows about it.

[Patroklos]

What dictates that Canto Bight must be a New Republic world? What evidence or reason to believe is there that the New Republic has control of every inhabited system in the galaxy which the First Order doesn't? Zero.

What evidence do you have that it is not a NR world? Zero.

So we have the option to use the setting we are given, or to invent out of whole cloth shit never mentioned in anything anywhere. Again, enjoy your head cannon.

Or did you think that after the collapse of the tyrannical Galactic Empire every single planet under its thumb - including but not limited to the former members of the Separatists - would rush to join the New Republic as opposed to simply choosing independence?

Immediately after? Maybe not. 30 years out? Yes, because that is EXACTLY what happened during the last galactic schism and government succession. Shit, there is no movie example of ANY Empire world being anything but anti Empire rule, its rally the only conclusion.

I, as I have said many times, would LOVE for there to be a diverse world of interplaying states like a independent Corellia, Kuat, Mon Cala, etc. each with their own sphere of control and influence. Its a very fertile ground for story telling. BUT THEY DID NOT DO THIS. In two movies, nothing even hinting at this has been mentioned.

Can you quote any movie source about any of these third parties existing? Any line about restoring independence to individual worlds rather than restoring the Republic?

ROFLMAO. Shroom called it correctly - its the "how many gigajoules are in decimation" mode of analysis. What a sad way to go through life.

Oh - and decimate also means "kill" or "destroy". Again, read a dictionary:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/decimate

Can mean. CAN MEAN. You keep linking to the dictionary, but apparently only so I can beat you with it. So once again, explain why they chose a word that explicitly doesn't mean what you want it to instead of one that explicitly does. Once again, your concession the word doesn't mean what you want it to mean is noted.

[Vympel]

What evidence do you have that it is not a NR world? Zero.

So we have the option to use the setting we are given, or to invent out of whole cloth shit never mentioned in anything anywhere. Again, enjoy your head cannon.

Your position is not the default I'm afraid.

Immediately after? Maybe not. 30 years out? Yes, because that is EXACTLY what happened during the last galactic schism and government succession. Shit, there is no movie example of ANY Empire world being anything but anti Empire rule, its rally the only conclusion.

Simply asserting that this is the only conclusion does not make it so.

I, as I have said many times, would LOVE for there to be a diverse world of interplaying states like a independent Corellia, Kuat, Mon Cala, etc. each with their own sphere of control and influence. Its a very fertile ground for story telling. BUT THEY DID NOT DO THIS. In two movies, nothing even hinting at this has been mentioned.

Because it is not required.

Can you quote any movie source about any of these third parties existing? Any line about restoring independence to individual worlds rather than restoring the Republic?

Why would I need to? Again - your assumption that "restoring the Republic" means "and every planet in the galaxy rushed to join" is not the default.

Can mean. CAN MEAN. So once again, explain why they chose a word that explicitly doesn't mean what you want it to instead of one that explicitly does. Once again, your concession the word doesn't mean what you want it to mean is noted.

ROFLMAO. Are you a real person or a parody of a witless sci-fi nerd who doesn't understand writing and the humanities, or why a writer would prefer to use one word over another when they can mean the same thing? Hmmm, I wonder if there's a famous film about the humanities which has talked about this:

“So avoid using the word ‘very’ because it’s lazy. A man is not very tired, he is exhausted. Don’t use very sad, use morose. Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women - and, in that endeavor, laziness will not do. It also won’t do in your essays.”

You sound like a total moron. "Well clearly he used decimate and not destroy even though decimate can mean destroy because he didn't mean destroy! Here are my calcs of this feat."

[Patroklos]

What evidence do you have that it is not a NR world? Zero.

So we have the option to use the setting we are given, or to invent out of whole cloth shit never mentioned in anything anywhere. Again, enjoy your head cannon.

Your position is not the default I'm afraid.

But it is the state of the current movie cannon, which you just tacitly conceded.

Immediately after? Maybe not. 30 years out? Yes, because that is EXACTLY what happened during the last galactic schism and government succession. Shit, there is no movie example of ANY Empire world being anything but anti Empire rule, its rally the only conclusion.

Simply asserting that this is the only conclusion does not make it so.

True, except there was an objective fact in there you failed to rebut. Unsurprisingly.

I, as I have said many times, would LOVE for there to be a diverse world of interplaying states like a independent Corellia, Kuat, Mon Cala, etc. each with their own sphere of control and influence. Its a very fertile ground for story telling. BUT THEY DID NOT DO THIS. In two movies, nothing even hinting at this has been mentioned.

Because it is not required.

Which is an admission its not there. Your concession is noted.

Can you quote any movie source about any of these third parties existing? Any line about restoring independence to individual worlds rather than restoring the Republic?

Why would I need to? Again - your assumption that "restoring the Republic" means "and every planet in the galaxy rushed to join" is not the default.

That's a no. Your concession is noted.

Can mean. CAN MEAN. So once again, explain why they chose a word that explicitly doesn't mean what you want it to instead of one that explicitly does. Once again, your concession the word doesn't mean what you want it to mean is noted.

ROFLMAO. Are you a real person or a parody of a witless sci-fi nerd who doesn't understand writing and the humanities, or why a writer would prefer to use one word over another when they can mean the same thing? Hmmm, I wonder if there's a famous film about the humanities which has talked about this:

So no rebutal, decimation still means what it did a post ago, which is not necessarily destroy or kill. Check. Concession noted.

“So avoid using the word ‘very’ because it’s lazy. A man is not very tired, he is exhausted. Don’t use very sad, use morose. Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women - and, in that endeavor, laziness will not do. It also won’t do in your essays.”

You sound like a total moron. "Well clearly he used decimate and not destroy even though decimate can mean destroy because he didn't mean destroy! Here are my calcs of this feat."

Again, you are your own worse enemy. We are not discussing adjectives tacked on to a word. We are not discussing very killed over destroyed, we are talking about a single word versus a single word. You are intentionally demanding that a word with more than one meaning MUST mean one over the other because that gives you warm fuzzies in your fanboi parts.

Your example above tells you to not be turgid and imprecise, to use a single word that means exactly what you want because its lazy not to. Yet you are the one here championing the opposite, to use a word that has multiple meanings, each of which could be equally relevantly applied to the situation at hand (it can't without contrivance in your preference, but I'll throw you a bone since you are struggling so hard).

So if your are done pumping bullets into your own arguements playing the faux literary intellectual, we can move on to you addressing the arguments made.

[Vympel]

But it is the state of the current movie cannon, which you just tacitly conceded.

No it is not. The movie is silent on the issue, so it is therefore an open question.

True, except there was an objective fact in there you failed to rebut. Unsurprisingly.

What "objective fact"? Explain yourself. I can't wait for the idiocy.

At this stage, your endlessly moaning "concession noted!" just makes you look like a fool. Let's move on to something of a bit more substance:

So no rebutal, decimation still means what it did a post ago, which is not necessarily destroy or kill. Check. Concession noted.

Nope, the idiot is still robotically mouthing "concession" there, too.

Again, you are your own worse enemy. We are not discussing adjectives tacked on to a word. We are not discussing very killed over destroyed, we are talking about a single word versus a single word. You are intentionally demanding that a word with more than one meaning MUST mean one over the other because that gives you warm fuzzies in your fanboi parts.

Your example above tells you to not be turgid and imprecise, to use a single word that means exactly what you want because its lazy not to. Yet you are the one here championing the opposite, to use a word that has multiple meanings, each of which could be equally relevantly applied to the situation at hand (it can't without contrivance in your preference, but I'll throw you a bone since you are struggling so hard).

So if your are done pumping bullets into your own arguements playing the faux literary intellectual, we can move on to you addressing the arguments made.

I don't think anyone should be surprised you're as completely shit at understanding what a scene in Dead Poet's Society tells us about writing as you are at what a Star Wars movie is telling you. Where Robin Williams waxes effusively about not being lazy and using boring words, Patroklos the Clown thinks its about whether you should use adjectives.

It's really so sad.

[K. A. Pital]

I have said before, simple people like simple things. You are one such person. Yes, the Mon Cals, AS THE EU LATER DESCRIBES THEM, are a giant plothole. In the films there is any number of plausible reasons why ships like that might exist. They could be recent defections form planetary defense fleets. They could be leftovers from some Clone Wars faction (because the clone wars didn't mean what they did now back then). They could have been freighters up gunned by the rebels like they ended up being but without the specifics of what made the world Mon Cala such a plot hole

You know, if one planet (Kamino) could produce enough troops and hardware for a galactic conflict, the plot hole is already there from day one. Either SW technology enables mass production on such a scale that one industrial planet can seriously impact the course of a war, or it does not. Given the film‘s locations which we‘ve seen, it seems that production is efficient. It would explain how isolated actors like the FO could actually pose a threat, if we‘re generous.

On the other hand, we have you claiming total control of the New Republic over everything that happened in the galaxy. Uh... I think it is a bigger plot hole.

At no point are we told this. We are explicitly told this is not the case. And that's stupid besides, so it deserves derision either way.

The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.
"Only General Leia Organa’s band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny, certain that Jedi Master Luke Skywalker will return and restore a spark of hope to the fight.

...I don‘t think you could convince anyone that words mean the opposite of what they do, so sorry. Yes, it would be silly for a strong state to be „decimated“ by the destruction of only its administrative center. From this we can infer that the New Republic was weak (and there were enough other indicators as well).

Canto doing this all during TLJ wasn't my idea. I simply said that they way TLJ went about things was stupid. Having actual public corporations and their public CEOs getting rich from selling arms to the Rebublic's chief rival to the point they are the riches people in the galaxy and flaunting it as an open secret is stupid and makes the Republic and everyone in it stupid and thus a good subset of our main characters stupid. Nobody wants to root for stupid people, or cares when they die. A black market solution that doesn't include Space Musk as a conspirator, one that doesn't try and say they are supplying the FOs primary armaments as well, is a better plot device.

The thing is, how do you control what corporations do? It was shown to be a problem even in TPM where the Senate was being fed information about a corporate takeover of Naboo, and still was indecisive even after the Jedi testimony. They flaunt their wealth in a faraway casino city under who knows what jurisdiction. And so it actually makes an important point often overlooked- a corporation of an interstellar scale would be like its own government. I feel it was a good attempt to show the consequences.

Please do tell, which companies OUTSIDE OF GERMANY provided the Nazi's primary armaments? And also became the richest people in the world doing so. And also did so openly AFTER their home country was in open warfare. Who were so overt about it that some random near girl from a mine knows about it.

Why „random girl“ though? How do you know where from she had the information, being in the Resistance and all? Also, in our reality, Nazis lost and governments fighting against them were strong. In TLJ, a bunch of space fascists decimates the Republic which can‘t even declare war on them. Uuuuh.

Germany was heavily helped by neutral nations. But we don‘t have a situation like SW where you have things like factory worlds and thereby actions of corporations can actually topple governments.

[K. A. Pital]

About „dealing with the FO“ - um, if the Republic is demilitarized or orders very little military equipment, and these massive corporations exist since Empire‘s day when ISDs were churned out like toys and two DS were built...

As leaders of such a corporation or trust of corporations, I would be concerned.

The FO seemed to absorb a shit ton of weapons and its ascension sure meant war. Like, certainly.

Now you think, how do I get more stuff? How can I produce more guns? Galaxy needs a war.

Even if originally supplying the FO was meant to make the Republic more militarized, I don‘t think its decimation was a bad turn of events for Canto.

Also with distances, planets and shit the exact workings of the galactic economy are not shown, but „capitalist minarchism“ seems to be close to what the Old Republic was. Why should a weaker NR be different?

[The Romulan Republic]

Just going to comment on this bit:

Rose's decision to free the animals could've (and likely DID) injured a lot of innocent people, e.g., waiters and waitresses, bartenders, card dealers, custodians and street sweepers- those with nothing to do with the military-industrial complex she hates.

War is hell. You ought to try to avoid it, but "collateral damage" happens, and this would cause a hell of a lot less than, say, an airstrike likely would.

Canto Bight was NOT a military target- hell, there was no indication the planet's government was anything but neutral in the war. If word gets out a Resistance member was responsible for what you call "collateral damage," but what the Canto Bight government (and the civilians injured when the animals ran wild) will call "crimes," support for the First Order will increase instead.

I suppose that's technically true, although given the circumstances- that they were arrested and jailed in a very heavy-handed fashion over what seemed a minor violation, and that it was endangering a mission on which the survival of an entire fleet hinged-it is hard for me to fault Finn and Rose much. Its certainly not like they went out of their way to harm civilians.

Edit: Plus, I'll admit that I'm getting less and less fond of being "neutral" towards fascist-type ideologies. There comes a point where "neutrality" is no longer possible, and becomes simply a form of collusion.

[jollyreaper]

You do realize even the Galactic Republic did not control every single planet? And you do realize that the Galaxy is in a civil war and “seizing” a planet is not as easy as one thinks. There is no “government”, only competing factions.

But sure, sure. Go on, the more stupid, the better.

That's a little more snark than warranted. It raises a good point about just how the supply lines are supposed to work, both in what was established in the OT and the new.

In the OT, at least what was depicted on-screen, the Empire is the only game in town. The whole galaxy was in the Republic and then later in the Empire. There was no other outside political power that could intervene as, say, the French did in the American Revolution. In the Civil War the Union pressed hard to make sure that foreign powers would avoid aiding the Confederacy.

In the EU they made things murkier so yes, the Empire is huge but it has limits to power and there are other factions out there that even they have to treat with respect. Because that would bring up the question of how the Rebels were supplied. They aren't just using black market fighters, the X-Wings are more advanced than the TIE's. Where were they manufactured? How are they remaining hidden from the Imperials? When the Mon Calamari joined, why didn't the Imperials just come along and slag their planet?

Lucas was inspired by the Vietnam War and how a small group of freedom fighters could hold off a vast technological power. But the difference in Vietnam is that there was an equally large technical power supplying weapons. Vietnamese may have been trained to fly the MiG's but they weren't build domestically. The US could track the freighters bringing in supplies, knew where the air bases were and could have attacked but did not for fear of making the war go from regional to global.

By the time of the new trilogy, all we have established is there's a Republic that is large and an Imperial Remnant which is smaller and the First Order that nobody really appreciated the power of that was off in the galactic hinterlands. The Republic is buying weapons from defense firms since they don't follow anything like the French arsenal system where the state manufactured its own weapons. So we're told that the manufacturers are dealing with both sides and manufacturing customized kit for the First Order. So the question then becomes where do these guys do business, are they inside the Republic? Because in our world we have a thing called export restrictions with rules as to who's allowed to buy what.

All of the old EU was thrown out and I don't know what they've brought back concerning the rest of the galaxy yet. But I think it would be clear that there's arms smuggling and there's arms smuggling. Small arms, explosives, that's the stuff that's easy to move, doesn't require a lot of support infrastructure, it's the bread and butter of warfare. But when you start talking starfighters, that's some serious kit. And full-on warships? Someone will want to know who's buying what.

It would make sense if the Imperial rump state is manufacturing weapons and sending them off to the FO because it would be hard for the Republic to inspect their factories. And it sounds like the Rebels -- er, excuse me, the Resistance, was wink-nudge supplied by the Republic. It reminds me of when the Russians invaded Crimea. "No, these are not Russian troops. They are ethnic Russians moved to take action by the plight of Crimea. They also happen to be wearing recent-issue Russian uniforms with no insignia and driving late-model fighting vehicles and have brought along state-of-the-art air defenses that can knock down airliners but trust us, it's a volunteer force we have nothing to do with."

[jollyreaper]

1. There is no galactic government, and the New Republic is destroyed.

The supply arrangements would have predated the destruction of the Hosnian system. TLJ takes place a day or two after TFA. So whatever was documented in the computer to put up on the holographic display would represent what was happening in peacetime.

2. Legality and morality are not one and the same, and if they were legally selling arms - which seems to be the case - it does not detract from the point that they are shitty war profiteers.

There's plenty of ways to be legal asshole war profiteers. See Gulf War 2 and Halliburton. Read Smedley Butler's War is a Racket. But there are legitimate world-building questions raised by what was presented in the film.

4. Grow up.

That's a rather childish thing to throw into an adult conversation.

[jollyreaper]

This is what the movie shows us. And its stupid. Its like the worst Marxist anti-capitalist wanktastic fan fiction, so obtuse and clumsy in its exectution that you can't help rolling your eyes the second you know where they are going.

I think the execution was poor and the scope of the situation raises a ton of world-building problems but there's precedence. The USN was up in arms after they found out a Japanese firm sold the USSR advanced milling equipment that would allow them to produce quieter sub screws. Lenin said the capitalist will sell you the rope you use to hang him with which I think has less to say about capitalism but shady businessmen in general. IBM kept servicing their machines that were installed in the death camps. Those little blue numbers were the primary key for an IBM punch card database.

To get at this point it probably would have been better if the Resistance had to turn to some shady character for supplies and he points out not so long ago the Republic was on his butt trying to shut him down and yet here they are, hat in hand, wanting to buy on credit no doubt.

[K. A. Pital]

In the OT, at least what was depicted on-screen, the Empire is the only game in town. The whole galaxy was in the Republic and then later in the Empire. There was no other outside political power that could intervene as, say, the French did in the American Revolution. In the Civil War the Union pressed hard to make sure that foreign powers would avoid aiding the Confederacy.

The Empire seemed to have had some presence on Tatooine, but not control. The Republic did not control the whole galaxy, and it turned out to be pretty minarchist when the prequels were shown; it had huge completely opaque corps controlling a huge share of wealth and production. No need to bring the EU into this. Once again, check the films.

Lucas was inspired by the Vietnam War and how a small group of freedom fighters could hold off a vast technological power. But the difference in Vietnam is that there was an equally large technical power supplying weapons. Vietnamese may have been trained to fly the MiG's but they weren't build domestically.

On a galactic scale, you could say the X-Wing is the equivalent of a damn Kalashnikov, and that thing was assembled locally by more than a few nations. But sure, as I said above: Star Wars itself is a plot hole. It wasn't just a joke, went a bit deeper. Interstellar war is already a plot problem. Actually the Force and things saves the film, in a way. From just being a calculation of economic and manpower considerations of militaristic crazies in the HQs on a massive slaughterfest.

So the question then becomes where do these guys do business, are they inside the Republic? Because in our world we have a thing called export restrictions with rules as to who's allowed to buy what.

I hope you do realize that space is vast, corporations in SW are opaque even moreso than in real life (check out Trade Federation and other shit from the Prequels), and "export restrictions" only apply to something called a "customs zone", which makes sense in territorial ground-based reality. Space is bound to be a bit different. More like the city-state period in Antiquity probably.

And full-on warships? Someone will want to know who's buying what.

It would make sense if the Imperial rump state is manufacturing weapons and sending them off to the FO because it would be hard for the Republic to inspect their factories.

The Old Republic couldn't inspect shit until it escalated into a full blown civil war, and it had the whole Jedi Order. New Republic is supposed to "inspect" what? Who produces what? One planet produced a clone army for a galactic war, a few other systems produced a droid army of yet greater scale, but sure, inspect, control, export restrictions!!

And it sounds like the Rebels -- er, excuse me, the Resistance, was wink-nudge supplied by the Republic. It reminds me of when the Russians invaded Crimea. "No, these are not Russian troops. They are ethnic Russians moved to take action by the plight of Crimea. They also happen to be wearing recent-issue Russian uniforms with no insignia and driving late-model fighting vehicles and have brought along state-of-the-art air defenses that can knock down airliners but trust us, it's a volunteer force we have nothing to do with."

Yes, because the Republic had a dysfunctional government and, seems like, a dysfunctional military which was very vulnerable; it's mentioned as a "peaceful" Republic in the scroll. It was decimated. How does this detract from the overall ability of weapon manufacturers to profit? If there are rump structures from the Empire left over, like, "Remnant" of that state, it becomes even easier to supply both NR and Empire/FO without joining either. But secretly rooting for FO of course, because WAR means more shit to sell, and peace... peace doesn't sell.