How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

[Kojiro]

Is the complaint that Rey doesn't make mistakes because of her incomplete training to master her emotions? Or is the complaint that Rey doesn't wind up an amputee for those mistakes?

The complaint, as I would state it, is not that Rey doesn't make mistakes, but that those mistakes always end up ultimately beneficial.

For example, she makes a mistake releasing the rathtars. Except that it saves Han and Chewie from an almost certainly deadly hallways crossfire and decimates the pirates. She makes the 'mistake' of heroically going back to fight the FO when they arrive at Maz's bar, and is captured. But she isn't injured. She doesn't give up any information like the map and then she just walks out because she now has mind control powers. Not like the others rock up and save her once she was detected, they just meet up. Like she's been there all along.

To call her going to see Ren a mistake is correct, but it has no cost. The narrative plays out in such a way that it could scarcely have gone better for her if she'd planned it. The only reason Ren is alive (which is almost certainly an actual mistake) is because she chose not to kill him and Snoke is dead. Had she so desired, she could have left the First Order under the direct command of Hux.

Imagine if they'd jumped in and the Supremacy had tractor beamed the Falcon. I'm sure it has them. Imagine if the price for her plan was that Chewie also got caught. Or if the timing was a bit different and her beacon was how the FO was tracking the fleet? Or if she had a moment where Kylo almost joined her, but she misread it and drew her saber, triggering a defensive reaction in him just like with Luke? What if she'd lost the saber and not been able to recover the pieces?

It's one reason she's been hit with the label- many people feel like she's not in the SW universe, playing by its rules, but more like she's a character that the SW universe is being bent around. She cannot fail, will never fail and even when it looks like she has failed, it won't matter anyway. This is going to go double for the last episode which will end with her the hero on high. But she won't have earned it.

Let's contrast her with two of my (and I'm sure others) favorite sci fi women (because there are people who are just itching to say it's about gender). Sarah Connor and Aeryn Sun. In Sarah's first movie, she's pretty much useless. She can't fight, doesn't know tactics and terrified much of the time. Reese has to talk her through things, tell her what to do and what not to do. And she's weak- she calls her mother- which brings the machine down on them and ultimately costs Reese his life. THAT is a mistake. That's something she's got to live with. In the second movie, Sarah has suffered. She has given up her whole life to make John what he has to be. She's not living in the suburbs, waiting for Judgement Day when John will do his thing. She's working her ass off, living hard for years. As John says 'she'd shack up with anyone who could train him'. She is giving her everything and ends up in an asylum assaulted by guards, not seeing her child in years. She's paranoid, hard, distant- she is what her lifestyle and those environments made her. So when she pulls up an AR-15 and starts cleaning it like a boss we go 'Fuck yeah I believe she can do that.' Conversely Rey is abandoned on a desert planet, works as more or less a slave, but still has her heart of gold.

Aeryn Sun is basically a female version of what Finn should be. Raised from birth to be a soldier she's emotionally stunted, direct in speech, unsympathetic, demanding and ruthlessly efficient. Again, a product of the environment she grew up in. She's got all the combat skills and all it cost her was everything social and emotional, which over the series she learns. But it takes time and she often lapses back in times of stress. Again, Rey on the other hand- who has grown up in an even worse, more cutthroat, less comfortable and more isolated way, is a saint. She acts like a contemporary woman whose been dropped on Jakku for a month- long enough to know how it works but not so long she's not still who she was deep down. Rey will fight for others, confront a thief, go on a mission, put her own desires aside... because that's just who she is. Why should fourteen years as a slave, on a brutal planet, alone, abandoned and starving beat anything out of her?

Rey has no growth- she starts off moral and righteous. She learns no skills, because she's already got them all. And the Force just comes to her with ease. And of course, no matter what, she walks away without a scratch. Ok fine, she got a scratch. But you put all that together and I don't care to see what happens in EpIX because I know she'll win- and it'll be bigger and better than any win before.

How do you see her getting out of that situation without someone else completely unexpectedly exploding everything and stopping anyone from concentrating on her.

That's not my problem, that's the problem of the story writer who put her there. Yeah sure, write your characters into impossible situations and you'll have to use bullshit to pull them out. So don't write them into those situations maybe? It's not my job to fix poor set ups.

But you made a claim- that she barely escaped- which you haven't substantiated. I don't care why she did it or what she wants to validate. Please back up your claim with an argument or evidence.

I mean it's basically the whole theme of the film, fight for the right reasons.

And? Sometimes you can have good reasons to fight but it's not the right time or place. Like when you're alone, in the heart of the enemy stronghold. You don't get a pass just because you're the good guy.

[Simon_Jester]

Star Wars is inherently an idealistic universe in a lot of ways, so having characters from beaten-down lifestyles start out with a high moral character is as much a genre expectation as anything else. I don't like the proposition that every character who has suffered "needs" to be mean, crude, asocial, ignorant, weak, or miserable.

The criticism of Rey as a "lucky fool," one who consistently makes mistakes and has them turn out to be inconsequential or beneficial, largely by luck? That is a more valid criticism of the character.

[Kojiro]

Star Wars is inherently an idealistic universe in a lot of ways, so having characters from beaten-down lifestyles start out with a high moral character is as much a genre expectation as anything else. I don't like the proposition that every character who has suffered "needs" to be mean, crude, asocial, ignorant, weak, or miserable.

Is it? Anakin, as a child, is the only one I know of to come from a 'beaten down' lifestyle besides Rey and his life looked downright cosy next to hers. He works in the shop, he's got a home and he's got his mum. He's not starving or having to fight for his life regularly.

Rey doesn't need to be a terrible person, but among Niima Station she's a downright paragon. Platt is a slaver, others would happily enslave/sell droids and half the people wouldn't even give Finn a drink of water when he wandered out of the desert. It's a hard lifestyle in a hard place where people send thugs to do their bidding and it's every one for themselves. Conversely Rey's willing to fight for a droid, she's willing to turn down a 'fortune' and she's willing to confront a thief- all within 10 minutes of screentime.

There is a far more reasonable middle ground between paragon and self centered cynic that Rey should occupy.

[Gandalf]

Star Wars is inherently an idealistic universe in a lot of ways, so having characters from beaten-down lifestyles start out with a high moral character is as much a genre expectation as anything else. I don't like the proposition that every character who has suffered "needs" to be mean, crude, asocial, ignorant, weak, or miserable.

Is it? Anakin, as a child, is the only one I know of to come from a 'beaten down' lifestyle besides Rey and his life looked downright cosy next to hers. He works in the shop, he's got a home and he's got his mum. He's not starving or having to fight for his life regularly.

Didn't Watto make him race pods, with all of the risk that entails?

[Kojiro]

Didn't Watto make him race pods, with all of the risk that entails?

Sure, but that was more stressful for his mother than him. Anakin rather liked it I thought?

[K. A. Pital]

Rey is OK. You can remain a decent person even when you go hungry and life is hell in general. I know such people.

Why so much hate on Rey? She‘s way better than Snoke. She‘s one of the better sides of the sequels.

[Simon_Jester]

Rey is OK. You can remain a decent person even when you go hungry and life is hell in general. I know such people.

Sometimes First Worlders who have lived comfortable lives learn the lesson "bad conditions can make a person behave roughly or make bad choices." Sometimes they generalize this, and assume that all people who grow up in such an environment will be like this. It's a common failure caused by limited contact, in my opinion.

[Kojiro]

Rey is OK. You can remain a decent person even when you go hungry and life is hell in general. I know such people.

Why so much hate on Rey? She‘s way better than Snoke. She‘s one of the better sides of the sequels.

I think you're hitting close to home there. Rey does seem like she's remained decent, rather than being raised poorly. But she's sold into slavery as a five year old, so it's questionable how she'd 'remain' anything through her formative years. I accept it could be done- a character could have some hope, some belief in prophecy or some sort of faith or ideal to live up to. In that respect, had Rey turned out to be the daughter of someone noble, someone who could have instilled upon her, even at a young age, certain lofty ideals (cos she certainly didn't learn them from Platt) I would be more forgiving. But apparently.. that is not the case, so it's very misplaced.

I'd like to point out, as well, that I'm not writing these paragraphs out of hate. It should be clear that I'm not reacting on instinct or something as crude as hate. She's a poorly written character IMHO, and she's the central crux of the squandered opportunity, the utter waste of such wonder that came before that she does get much of my focus. That and the thread is literally *about* Rey so yeah, that too. But I don't hate SW, or what they've done, I'm just so disappointed at what's been lost. Given the value of it, it's just been squandered.

I want so badly for SW to be better because I genuinely feel right now that it's bad.

Sometimes First Worlders who have lived comfortable lives learn the lesson "bad conditions can make a person behave roughly or make bad choices." Sometimes they generalize this, and assume that all people who grow up in such an environment will be like this. It's a common failure caused by limited contact, in my opinion.

As I said above, I'm willing to allow characters to be the shining examples. Taken individually, most of Rey's traits aren't that bad. But taken collectively they seem unbalanced, over powered, favoured. She's brave and smart and talented and charming, agile and strong, noble and compassionate, resilient and beautiful. AND she's a super force user- since like 3 days ago. Where is the thing she cannot do? The thing she's bad at? The fault in her character, personality or morality? She's basically the best elements of Han, Luke and Leia with none of their downsides.

Now I'd also accept her being, say illiterate, or uneducated and unskilled in place of her uncommonly noble outlook. It doesn't have to be that particular set of flaws, but just something that makes her not super amazing in every way.

[K. A. Pital]

Sometimes First Worlders who have lived comfortable lives learn the lesson "bad conditions can make a person behave roughly or make bad choices." Sometimes they generalize this, and assume that all people who grow up in such an environment will be like this. It's a common failure caused by limited contact, in my opinion.

That's not a "lesson" they even "learn", more like crude and harmful stereotypes fed by the media.

I accept it could be done- a character could have some hope, some belief in prophecy or some sort of faith or ideal to live up to. In that respect, had Rey turned out to be the daughter of someone noble, someone who could have instilled upon her, even at a young age, certain lofty ideals (cos she certainly didn't learn them from Platt) I would be more forgiving.

Maybe she trusted her parents to be important after all the trauma, believing in their importance, and it gave her sort of a moral code. You know, like, trying not to fail them although you don't even know if they're there. It works for some people. The point is, hard work doesn't always break people, and the limits and foundations of one's moral code are decided by the person himself or herself. Observation and learning helps, but there's always a final choice as well.

The fault in her character, personality or morality?

She seems quite eager to use whatever means necessary to reach her goal? It may seem like a small thing, but might be more important later on. A bit like, um... Luke himself in SW OT.

[Simon_Jester]

Sometimes First Worlders who have lived comfortable lives learn the lesson "bad conditions can make a person behave roughly or make bad choices." Sometimes they generalize this, and assume that all people who grow up in such an environment will be like this. It's a common failure caused by limited contact, in my opinion.

That's not a "lesson" they even "learn", more like crude and harmful stereotypes fed by the media.

Well no, "bad conditions CAN make a person behave roughly or make bad choices" is a valid lesson to learn. And it beats the alternative of "everyone who behaves roughly and makes bad choices does so out of bad moral character, and just coincidentally poor people have the worst moral character," which is what right-wing people in developed countries tend to believe instead.

The problem isn't the belief that bad conditions can degrade a person. It's the belief that this is fully general, that bad conditions MUST erode the virtue of the people who live under them.

[K. A. Pital]

Well no, "bad conditions CAN make a person behave roughly or make bad choices" is a valid lesson to learn. And it beats the alternative of "everyone who behaves roughly and makes bad choices does so out of bad moral character, and just coincidentally poor people have the worst moral character," which is what right-wing people in developed countries tend to believe instead.

The problem isn't the belief that bad conditions can degrade a person. It's the belief that this is fully general, that bad conditions MUST erode the virtue of the people who live under them.

Seriousy, few posts above I'm informed that being the daughter of a noble would make Rey more believable as a virtous character. It's not about whether they believe people are bad out of "bad moral character", whatever the hell that means, it's about them thinking the riffraff have poor morals, and that's an ingrained perception, because even perceiving other people as low-life, riffraff and so on can't happen without massive preparation of the brain.

The right-wingers may also believe conditions degrade the person, don't make them so primitive. They're more cunning, they'd just say degrading conditions aren't the ones you think are degrading. They'd say shit like "decadent" and stuff, and say virtue is seen in the nobility (huh!) and in the Army.

Point is, First World right or left, you're here all trying to prove to me that there's logic in seeing a poor but virtous person as a plot hole or something. Sure there is, but it's not a logic I'd follow.

[Crazedwraith]

Seriousy, few posts above I'm informed that being the daughter of a noble would make Rey more believable as a virtous character

Umm... Kojiro said if she was the daughter of "someone noble". Not "A noble". As in someone of high moral who raised her with said morals. Not a member of the nobility.

And we're seriously being considered elitist first worlders for thinking someone who has been a slave and a scavenger in a bad environment for their formative years with no positive role models might be not be the most well adjusted people?

eta: that said, I think they're less likely to be well-adjusted not impossible. The idea in TFA seems to be the myths and legends of Luke Skywalker and the Rebel Alliance are what are responsible for Rey's outlook.

[The Romulan Republic]

Seriousy, few posts above I'm informed that being the daughter of a noble would make Rey more believable as a virtous character

Umm... Kojiro said if she was the daughter of "someone noble". Not "A noble". As in someone of high moral who raised her with said morals. Not a member of the nobility.

And we're seriously being considered elitist first worlders for thinking someone who has been a slave and a scavenger in a bad environment for their formative years with no positive role models might be not be the most well adjusted people?

No.

But assuming that she MUST be a bad, or incapable, person because she was raised in such an environment, to the point that its a sign of her being an (ugg, I hate that term) "Mary Sue" if she isn't, would be.

[K. A. Pital]

Umm... Kojiro said if she was the daughter of "someone noble". Not "A noble". As in someone of high moral who raised her with said morals. Not a member of the nobility.

And we're seriously being considered elitist first worlders for thinking someone who has been a slave and a scavenger in a bad environment for their formative years with no positive role models might be not be the most well adjusted people?

Yes.

I like that you decide there could not have been any "positive role models" (any good people) on Jakku during Rey's entire lifetime.

Because it's so poor, right? There can't be good people in the ghetto.

Fuuuck, that's a lot deeper than I thought.

P.S. TRR, how could you miss that? "NO positive role models", man. Because it's Jakku, ok? See what he's doing?

[Crazedwraith]

No.

But assuming that she MUST be a bad, or incapable, person because she was raised in such an environment, to the point that its a sign of her being an (ugg, I hate that term) "Mary Sue" if she isn't, would be.

Fair enough. See my edit I made to my last post. I think the film at least tries to address this by making her know of and admire the Rebel Alliance, the Resistance and Luke, to show where she got or at least kept her good nature and her ideals.

[Crazedwraith]

Umm... Kojiro said if she was the daughter of "someone noble". Not "A noble". As in someone of high moral who raised her with said morals. Not a member of the nobility.

And we're seriously being considered elitist first worlders for thinking someone who has been a slave and a scavenger in a bad environment for their formative years with no positive role models might be not be the most well adjusted people?

Yes.

I like that you decide there could not have been any "positive role models" (any good people) on Jakku during Rey's entire lifetime.

Because it's so poor, right? There can't be good people in the ghetto.

Fuuuck, that's a lot deeper than I thought.

P.S. TRR, how could you miss that? "NO positive role models", man. Because it's Jakku, ok? See what he's doing?

Okay, fair point. No positive role models that we see or hear about or have any evidence of existing but are theoretically possible. Better?

Also how about saying something about that other point where you completely misinterpreted what someone said?

[ray245]

Seriousy, few posts above I'm informed that being the daughter of a noble would make Rey more believable as a virtous character. It's not about whether they believe people are bad out of "bad moral character", whatever the hell that means, it's about them thinking the riffraff have poor morals, and that's an ingrained perception, because even perceiving other people as low-life, riffraff and so on can't happen without massive preparation of the brain.

The right-wingers may also believe conditions degrade the person, don't make them so primitive. They're more cunning, they'd just say degrading conditions aren't the ones you think are degrading. They'd say shit like "decadent" and stuff, and say virtue is seen in the nobility (huh!) and in the Army.

Point is, First World right or left, you're here all trying to prove to me that there's logic in seeing a poor but virtous person as a plot hole or something. Sure there is, but it's not a logic I'd follow.

Luke is pretty much a case of a person raised in a non-aristocratic/noble/wealthy environment but virtuous at the same time, if you take ANH solely on its own.

The journey of someone from a more underprivileged background is a story where they grew up with family and friends being trapped in poverty, crime and all sort of social pressure and manages to overcome those barriers. It's an interesting story to tell, or at the least gives the audience something to root for in a protagonist. But Rey don't have any of that story to tell, nor a sufficient background on how she developed a sense of morality. Where did Rey get her sense of justice from? Who taught her those morals? Who raised her? Who were the good people in her life?

Anakin had his mother, Luke had his Uncle and Aunt. Rey could be an orphan, but she needed some sort of moral figure in her life to give an audience a sense of where her sense of morality came from. A mentor figure?

You can make an argument that Rey is naturally good and kind, but that weakens her character as a whole. She has no moral flaws, no major abilities flaw, and the universe bends itself around her. She's a loner but she has none of the trade-off people typically associate with loners. She's not disliked by anyone, she's good at almost everything, and she never pays for any of her mistakes.

It's not a plot hole for Rey, but she's someone that suffers no consequences for any of her supposed disadvantages. It makes her as a character weak and boring to many people. Her appeal is largely based on the personal appeal and charisma of Daisy Ridley as an actress than what's written down in the script. People are too charmed by the performance of the actor. It's not a bad thing, but I think it does massively cloud people's judgment.


Jakku is a complete vacuum in terms of relevant character-building for Rey. She has no friends or family of any sort in Jakku. And that's a big problem for a supposed hero.

[K. A. Pital]

You can make an argument that Rey is naturally good and kind, but that weakens her character as a whole

Yeah, like, it didn't weaken Harry fucking Potter - but it weakens Rey.

It's an interesting story to tell, or at the least gives the audience something to root for in a protagonist.

The way you perceive other people also impacts the way you perceive the story.

I've broken more than a few subversive attempts to claim "poor = bad" ITT, but I'm not going to just go on and on.

This is tiresome. Rey wasn't half as bad as some think, and somehow I feel a lot of the hate comes simply from the fact she's a woman. Makes me all the more sad.

She's a loner but she has none of the trade-off people typically associate with loners.

So she breaks with some conventions; that's already good. Maybe she'd inspire a few loners to hook up with Finns or something.

Why should everything be as you want it to? It shouldn't. And people are not what the majority prejudices right now tell them they should be, for the umteenth time.

[Kane Starkiller]

Where is this whole "noble birth" coming from? Luke Skywalker and Ben Kenobi were nobodies that lived in the desert. Ben Kenobi was appreciated by the Rebellion because he was a Jedi general not because he was an aristocrat.
These characters are famous to us the audience not to the galaxy.

If you want to have a "commoner" Rey and an "aristocrat" Kylo then have the Force come naturally and easily to Kylo because of his bloodline and have him be completely ungrateful for what he inherited and instead sink to the dark side out of lust for even more power.
Have Rey be someone with very little natural Force potential and then show her expand her power through hard work, discipline, battles and lessons learned through failure.
Finally have her overcome Kylo showing us how hard work trumps unearned talent.

Instead Light and Dark are completely ass backwards. Whereas in the OT the Dark Side was established as quicker and easier and thus more seductive here the Dark Side demands that you kill your own father to progress further. How the fuck is that quicker and easier? I mean it's one thing to say that once you go down that path you'll end up so twisted you'll want to kill the ones you once professed to love but it's completely different to portray the supposedly easy path demanding you to kill people for which you still have feelings as some kind of test.

[Crazedwraith]

Where is this whole "noble birth" coming from?

From Pital misreading something. No one claimed Rey had to be of 'noble birth' the claimed they had be 'noble' as in honourable and morale to teach her said honor and morals.

You don't have to agree that that's true but that's what was Kojiro argued.

[K. A. Pital]

Instead Light and Dark are completely ass backwards. Whereas in the OT the Dark Side was established as quicker and easier and thus more seductive here the Dark Side demands that you kill your own father to progress further. How the fuck is that quicker and easier? I mean it's one thing to say that once you go down that path you'll end up so twisted you'll want to kill the ones you once professed to love but it's completely different to portray the supposedly easy path demanding you to kill people for which you still have feelings as some kind of test.

That's right, you motherfucking idiot, the Dark Side demands you kill your relatives to progress, because it's fucking evil and that's how evil works. Because to join Impy Luke had to kill his father, or whatever remained of him, and yes, that's how that shit works in real life, dumbass.

You have to sacrifice invaluable things like deep personal relationships and lose your relatives to "succeed" through an evil path. It's a very good point, can't be heavy enough when ramming it in your little heads.

I love how these films just completely made naked what you fell about evil, good and all that. It's just so perfect.

There's "easier", like, you can TK bullets and shit, and there's the price for that ease. It's always been that way, but you woke up yesterday? The last 6 films didn't happen and Vader didn't sacrifice his humanity for the force choke trick? Ow ow ow.

From Pital misreading something. No one claimed Rey had to be of 'noble birth' the claimed they had be 'noble' as in honourable and morale to teach her said honor and morals.

You don't have to agree that that's true but that's what was Kojiro argued.

That's also implict bullshit that you can't be good against the odds, or what not, but you have to have it from on high. And of course from 'noble' parents as otherwise a person wouldn't be OK. I mean, what if parents were actually not so good? Does tis mean the person can't be good?

Or it's a plot hole if the person is good but her family is bad? Huh?

[The Romulan Republic]

Seriousy, few posts above I'm informed that being the daughter of a noble would make Rey more believable as a virtous character. It's not about whether they believe people are bad out of "bad moral character", whatever the hell that means, it's about them thinking the riffraff have poor morals, and that's an ingrained perception, because even perceiving other people as low-life, riffraff and so on can't happen without massive preparation of the brain.

The right-wingers may also believe conditions degrade the person, don't make them so primitive. They're more cunning, they'd just say degrading conditions aren't the ones you think are degrading. They'd say shit like "decadent" and stuff, and say virtue is seen in the nobility (huh!) and in the Army.

Point is, First World right or left, you're here all trying to prove to me that there's logic in seeing a poor but virtous person as a plot hole or something. Sure there is, but it's not a logic I'd follow.

Luke is pretty much a case of a person raised in a non-aristocratic/noble/wealthy environment but virtuous at the same time, if you take ANH solely on its own.

Yes.

Oh, sure, he's got the Skywalker heritage, but he's raised as a poor (or at best middle class) farmer on a backwater world, albeit one better off than Rey by virtue of having a family that treats him fairly well.

The journey of someone from a more underprivileged background is a story where they grew up with family and friends being trapped in poverty, crime and all sort of social pressure and manages to overcome those barriers. It's an interesting story to tell, or at the least gives the audience something to root for in a protagonist. But Rey don't have any of that story to tell, nor a sufficient background on how she developed a sense of morality. Where did Rey get her sense of justice from? Who taught her those morals? Who raised her? Who were the good people in her life?

Again, there IS a disturbing implication to the assumption that a person from a poor, underprivileged background needs a complex backstory to explain WHY THEY ARE CAPABLE OF A SENSE OF MORALITY, especially since I don't think you see such demands being made of most heroic characters.

Nor do I think it is necessary to root for a generally likeable character who's fighting space Nazis, especially when they're played by a decent actor.

And you could tell that sort of story you describe with Rey-it might even be a good story. Its just that, given when the films happen and what they show, it would be off-screen, likely relegated to a book or something. But I fear that it would be all too easy for it to slide into overdone, angsty grimdark.

Anakin had his mother, Luke had his Uncle and Aunt. Rey could be an orphan, but she needed some sort of moral figure in her life to give an audience a sense of where her sense of morality came from. A mentor figure?

That would actually be an interesting story, I think. But I don't think it automatically ruins the character not to have one.

You can make an argument that Rey is naturally good and kind, but that weakens her character as a whole.

Excuse me. Did you actually just say that "naturally good and kind" automatically equals "weaker character"?

I mean, I know that's the underlying premise of the trend towards favoring "dark, edgy antiheroes", but I seldom see it stated that bluntly.

She has no moral flaws,

She is tempted by the Dark Side in TLJ, due to her insecurities about her origins.

no major abilities flaw,

Not many, though she clearly lacks much understanding of the Force or galactic history, and is a poor shot with a blaster in TFA.

and the universe bends itself around her.

Not so much as you probably think. She suffers some major failures- at least one in both of her films thus far. Like all the nuances and shortcomings of her character, these are frequently ignored or downplayed by her critics. More on that in a moment.

She's a loner but she has none of the trade-off people typically associate with loners. She's not disliked by anyone,

Luke, initially. And presumably most of the First Order.

And I don't really need another "edgy loner anti-hero" for internet tough-guys to fetishize. That kind of character is overdone these days, and usually done badly.

she's good at almost everything, and she never pays for any of her mistakes.

Captured by Ren after she freaks out and runs off in TFA (which indirectly leads to the death of her first surrogate father figure, Han), and completely misjudges her chances of redeeming Kylo Ren, though that one actually works out fairly well (albeit largely due to the actions of other characters).

It's not a plot hole for Rey, but she's someone that suffers no consequences for any of her supposed disadvantages. It makes her as a character weak and boring to many people. Her appeal is largely based on the personal appeal and charisma of Daisy Ridley as an actress than what's written down in the script. People are too charmed by the performance of the actor. It's not a bad thing, but I think it does massively cloud people's judgment.

While I do think Rey's characterization in TFA was fairly shallow, though likeable (less so now, after TLJ), I don't think its a bad thing to have some more idealistic protagonists to thin out the endless parade of gritty anti-heroes.

As to disadvantages due to her upbringing, and their consequences...

Jakku is a complete vacuum in terms of relevant character-building for Rey. She has no friends or family of any sort in Jakku. And that's a big problem for a supposed hero.

TLJ shows (and even TFA hinted at) deep insecurity about her identity, and longing for a family, on Rey's part. This allows the Dark Side to tempt her, Snoke to deceive her (and Kylo Ren), and would have probably gotten her killed if she hadn't gotten VERY lucky when Holdo rammed the First Order fleet.

We also see that, while she has a lot of practical skills, she has very little, probably, in the way of "book smarts". Its not exactly focused on, but if you pay close attention, its clear that she has a very limited knowledge of both Force philosophy and galactic history, both subjects that it would be useful for her to know in her new role as a Jedi.

[Kane Starkiller]

That's right, you motherfucking idiot, the Dark Side demands you kill your relatives to progress, because it's fucking evil and that's how evil works. Because to join Impy Luke had to kill his father, or whatever remained of him, and yes, that's how that shit works in real life, dumbass.

You have to sacrifice invaluable things like deep personal relationships and lose your relatives to "succeed" through an evil path. It's a very good point, can't be heavy enough when ramming it in your little heads.

I love how these films just completely made naked what you fell about evil, good and all that. It's just so perfect.

There's "easier", like, you can TK bullets and shit, and there's the price for that ease. It's always been that way, but you woke up yesterday? The last 6 films didn't happen and Vader didn't sacrifice his humanity for the force choke trick? Ow ow ow.

Goood. Use your agressive feelings boy. Let the hate flow through you.

But no that's not how it works "in real life". You don't start with doing things you don't really want to do. You start with ambition and desire which then corrupts you.
Luke never knew Darth Vader as a father. He knew he killed Obi Wan, worked for the organization that killed his uncle and aunt, destroyed Alderaan and ultimately abandoned him. Therefore it was perfectly natural and easy to hate Darth Vader. It took DISCIPLINE not to give in to his hatred and spare Vader. That's the Light Side. Were you paying attention to these movies?

[Crazedwraith]

From Pital misreading something. No one claimed Rey had to be of 'noble birth' the claimed they had be 'noble' as in honourable and morale to teach her said honor and morals.

You don't have to agree that that's true but that's what was Kojiro argued.

That's also implict bullshit that you can't be good against the odds, or what not, but you have to have it from on high. And of course from 'noble' parents as otherwise a person wouldn't be OK. I mean, what if parents were actually not so good? Does tis mean the person can't be good?

Or it's a plot hole if the person is good but her family is bad? Huh?

Yes! Seriously, why is that hard to comprehend?

As far as I can tell you are the one claiming that you can just innately be good. I imagine you don't see it that way, so if you want to explain further?

If you have no good role models, no way of learning good from bad, you won't hold yourself to a good standard of living. Admittedly, It doesn't have to be your family but there has to be <I>something.</i> Like you said there could be good examples for her on Jakku but we're never told what they were. As I said before I attributed mainly to admire the legends of Luke/The Resistance/the Rebel Alliance.

Basically as I see it morality is not hard wired into people. Am I wrong?

[The Romulan Republic]

From Pital misreading something. No one claimed Rey had to be of 'noble birth' the claimed they had be 'noble' as in honourable and morale to teach her said honor and morals.

You don't have to agree that that's true but that's what was Kojiro argued.

That's also implict bullshit that you can't be good against the odds, or what not, but you have to have it from on high. And of course from 'noble' parents as otherwise a person wouldn't be OK. I mean, what if parents were actually not so good? Does tis mean the person can't be good?

Or it's a plot hole if the person is good but her family is bad? Huh?

Yes! Seriously, why is that hard to comprehend?

As far as I can tell you are the one claiming that you can just innately be good. I imagine you don't see it that way, so if you want to explain further?

If you have no good role models, no way of learning good from bad, you won't hold yourself to a good standard of living. Admittedly, It doesn't have to be your family but there has to be <I>something.</i> Like you said there could be good examples for her on Jakku but we're never told what they were. As I said before I attributed mainly to admire the legends of Luke/The Resistance/the Rebel Alliance.

Basically as I see it morality is not hard wired into people. Am I wrong?

I can actually see Rey indulging in escapist legends about Luke/the Rebels, as a way of dealing with the shit hole she lives in and the void caused by the absence of her parents. No doubt (as we see) imagining her parents as heroic figures, maybe part of those legends. And those legends thus influencing her values, even if she doesn't really believe them to be true (she seems surprised to find out that the Force and all that is real in TFA, as I recall).

Stories play a huge role in shaping our values- what else is religion, after all, but morality shaped by stories?

Its not exactly spelled out to hit the audience over the head with it in the films, but there's enough to make it a reasonable conclusion about Rey's personality.