Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[jollyreaper]

It was pretty clear even the Empire did not control the whole galaxy.

Otherwise where from did the Rebels get these 3km long Mon Cal ships??

It certainly raises questions, ones that the EU tried to answer in a myriad of ways. According to current EU, the Mon Calamari were in the Republic and later rebelled after the Empire decided to take direct political control of their planet for reasons. So this made them go from pacifist to fully thrown in on the war effort. Those cruisers were originally supposed to be civilian ships but were later converted into multi-role warships. The Empire should have been able to bombard their homeworld and destroy all industry so it's not exactly clear where those ships are coming from. Did they already have hundreds in service and after their homeworld was attacked they all threw in with the rebellion? Where did they do the refits? What are they doing for spare parts?

Probably the best answer, one not supported in any of the material I know of, is that the Empire is more of a core thing and there's a bunch of polities rimward that never felt comfortable joining up with the whole Republic thing and are now leery of the Empire trying to make them join the central government by force. The Empire is trying to avoid giving them a reason to form an alliance against it and so tries to play nice even as they suspect some of them are funneling resources to the rebels. The goal of those outside polities would be to weaken the empire as much as possible while not helping the rebels enough to gain a victory because a new republic might feel expansionist again.

In so far as depicted in the films and the original EU, there wasn't really any concept of "rebel-held territory," planets so secure that the Imperials could not afford to project power there for fear of a publishing fight. Any place the rebels decided to place a fixed base, the Imperials could attack. Yavin, Hoth. So we see the Rebel fleet at the end of Empire and are thus back to the question of where they resupply from. It's unclear whether the fleet could "live off the land" as it were, growing food in agripods, mining resources from asteroids, manufacturing replacement parts, getting hypermatter from wherever it comes from, etc.

[jollyreaper]

So, Mon Cal ships are a plothole. You know what else is a plothole? Star Wars. And who the fuck gives a damn about the EU? For fuck‘s sake, it is gone, and the ships were in the film. No EU. Full stop.

The funny thing with the EU is it's gone until it isn't. The new writers grew up on it, same as us, and so we keep seeing bits brought back to canon as more and more content is created. The TIE Defender originated in a video game from the 90's so that's like tertiary canon and yet it was brought back into the animated shows.

[Sidewinder]

Disney's writers portray the New Republic as being so weak, the decapitation strike on the Hosnian System makes surviving worlds capitulate to the New Order (Starkiller Base's destruction didn't diminish the First Order's propaganda campaign). The fact no one sends ships to fight the First Order fleet- to avenge friends and family that died with the Hosnian System, to save friends and family in the Resistance- makes me think the New Republic deserves to be conquered, like the "master race" in Racial Holy War (warning, the link is to an 1d4chan article). It didn't help that my first thought when J. J. Abrams decided to name the good guys the "Resistance", was "The New Republic sponsors a terrorist organization in the First Order's territory?" (That's a big sign of how badly the new movies' worldbuilding was done. They explicitly made the Resistance the New Republic's agents in a proxy war between it and the First Order, but failed to think through the consequences of such a portrayal.)

[K. A. Pital]

Look, I’ve made enough arguments on the last page.

Pretty much laid out the way I see it. Not going to do it again.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Was I the only one who thought Paige Tico was far hotter than her sister Rose?

[The Romulan Republic]

The official Star Wars Facebook page has announced four Academy Award nominations for TLJ: Sound Editing, Sound Mixing, Best Original Score, and Best Visual Effects.

[The Romulan Republic]

Disney's writers portray the New Republic as being so weak, the decapitation strike on the Hosnian System makes surviving worlds capitulate to the New Order (Starkiller Base's destruction didn't diminish the First Order's propaganda campaign). The fact no one sends ships to fight the First Order fleet- to avenge friends and family that died with the Hosnian System, to save friends and family in the Resistance- makes me think the New Republic deserves to be conquered, like the "master race" in Racial Holy War (warning, the link is to an 1d4chan article).

Yeah, right, all the innocent civilians in First Order territory deserve to be brutalized and killed, because their government wasn't tough enough.

And you question the morality of the film's protagonists?

It didn't help that my first thought when J. J. Abrams decided to name the good guys the "Resistance", was "The New Republic sponsors a terrorist organization in the First Order's territory?" (That's a big sign of how badly the new movies' worldbuilding was done. They explicitly made the Resistance the New Republic's agents in a proxy war between it and the First Order, but failed to think through the consequences of such a portrayal.)

So... the Republic isn't tough enough, but when it (or at least some elements of it) try to do something, however minor to oppose the First Order, then they're terrorists?

I know that there's a lot of wrangling over the definition of "terrorist", but I would think that the Resistance would not qualify unless they make a practice or policy of hitting civilians or engage in strikes for the purpose of intimidation, rather than hitting military targets. Every action we see them take in the film, however, is directed towards a legitimate military target.

Edit: Okay, with the exception of Rose and Finn's rampage through the streets of Planet Casino, maybe- which was explicitly NOT sanctioned by Resistance command.

[K. A. Pital]

TRR on a rare note I sympathize with you, but be careful.

See what is going on here, and take notice.

“Peaceful New Republic, a non-militaristic state? Deserves to be wiped out!!!”

That’s not a position which even requires arguing against. It is a provocation.

[The Romulan Republic]

TRR on a rare note I sympathize with you, but be careful.

See what is going on here, and take notice.

“Peaceful New Republic, a non-militaristic state? Deserves to be wiped out!!!”

That’s not a position which even requires arguing against. It is a provocation.

Perhaps it was meant as a provocation, but I still think that its worth calling out specifically, in part because those sorts of attitudes so permeate our society on an almost subconscious level that I think a lot of people who parrot them without really thinking about them.

Its also worth noting the contradiction between that militaristic attitude, and condemning the Resistance (which seems only to target legitimate military targets) as 'terrorists".

[Sidewinder]

When the New Republic government was decapitated, Leia's "Resistance" was the only group to rise against the First Order- The Visual Dictionary specifically stated most planets capitulated to the First Order. Why didn't the New Republic's constituents feel it was worth fighting for? Failing to portray a broader struggle can easily make the audience think, 'Maybe the Empire- and the First Order that succeeded it- wasn't that bad?' a thought shared by Kreel, who felt the Empire saved him from slavery. (Yes, the Empire used slaves itself, but to Kreel, that just makes it no worse than the Republic, which TOLERATED slavery on its constituent planets.)

My issue is the failure of worldbuilding that presented. See how Eragon and its sequels failed to show the antagonist as being worse than the protagonist, which (along with the protagonist's sociopathic behavior) undermines the very cause Eragon is fighting for.

[The Romulan Republic]

Generally, I'll side with the people who do not engage in casual military aggression over those who do, all other things being equal.

Are there idiots who think the Empire is as good as or better than the Republic- of course there are, both in and out of universe. There has long been a strong Imperial apologist, fascism fetishism component of the fanbase, to my disgust. It doesn't mean that their position is well-founded. We SEE the First Order commit atrocities on-screen, just as we did the Empire. We don't see the Republic or Resistance doing this. But to some people, "not doing enough to stop atrocities" somehow means "just as bad as the people committing the atrocities", which somehow means "the people committing the atrocities aren't really that bad". The constant "Whataboutism" and false equivalency in American politics, used to paint the Democrats as "just as bad as the Republicans" (generally to the benefit of the Republicans) fucking lives off this sort of thinking.

The scene where nobody replies to Leia's call for help (as well as the cynical hacker character who sees the Resistance and First Order as no different, and ultimately sells out Finn and Rose to save himself) is an obvious take-that at that sort of misguided cynicism.

But evidently, the point flew clear over some peoples' heads.

Edit: To be clear, I am not saying that the film was making that specific reference to American politics. Rather, it was clearly referencing that sort of cynical, misleading thinking, which I believe has direct applicability to the current problems of American politics.

[Sidewinder]

Let's compare the response to Leia's call to allies in 'The Last Jedi' with that to Gandalf's in 'The Fellowship of the Ring', and Bard's in 'The Battle of Five Armies'. Will I question of the latter two characters' ideals are worth fighting for? No, because I see many people of many races (elves, dwarves, men, hobbits) voluntarily risk life, limb, and livelihood to help Bard and Gandalf fight off Mordor's forces. Compared to that, the effort given to save the New Republic and its Resistance proxy is pathetic.

Why aren't more people fighting to restore the Nrw Republic in the wake of Hosnian Prime's destruction? In failing to show this, the filmmakers end up making the audience question whether or not it's worth fighting for.

[The Romulan Republic]

Let's compare the response to Leia's call to allies in 'The Last Jedi' with that to Gandalf's in 'The Fellowship of the Ring', and Bard's in 'The Battle of Five Armies'. Will I question of the latter two characters' ideals are worth fighting for? No, because I see many people of many races (elves, dwarves, men, hobbits) voluntarily risk life, limb, and livelihood to help Bard and Gandalf fight off Mordor's forces. Compared to that, the effort given to save the New Republic and its Resistance proxy is pathetic.

Why aren't more people fighting to restore the Nrw Republic in the wake of Hosnian Prime's destruction? In failing to show this, the filmmakers end up making the audience question whether or not it's worth fighting for.

One side is depicted engaging in massacres, torture, and genocide of civilian populaces. The other isn't.

Its not hard to figure out who the good guys are here, by the fairly simple standards of Star Wars morality.

And I'm getting really sick of the ST's critics constantly faulting the films for not holding the audience's hand and explaining every tiny detail of the plot (demands I never see made to the same extent for the plots of other films) in order to "justify" it.

[AniThyng]

Was I the only one who thought Paige Tico was far hotter than her sister Rose?

I think an article titled "the hottest women in TLJ ranked" will go over about as well as a lead balloon...

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, and rightly so. It would be tasteless, and would be seen, particularly in light of the ongoing political debates around feminism, and the "Rey is a Mary Sue" allegations, as an attempt to diminish the female characters to sex objects (even if that wasn't the intent).

That said, I can't help but think it would be funny if someone said "Phasma"- since the only thing we ever see of her is one eye. But that's just me feeling like being a wise-ass.

[AniThyng]

Yeah, and rightly so. It would be tasteless, and would be seen, particularly in light of the ongoing political debates around feminism, and the "Rey is a Mary Sue" allegations, as an attempt to diminish the female characters to sex objects (even if that wasn't the intent).

That said, I can't help but think it would be funny if someone said "Phasma"- since the only thing we ever see of her is one eye. But that's just me feeling like being a wise-ass.

I see now that you reminded me of phasma that I ought to have been taking it literally, and note that Rose neither was in a hangar explosion nor fell into a flaming pit.

[Silver Jedi]

I am curious, for anyone who's up on the new canon: has any explanation been given for some of the changes made to spaceship technology? In the same way that the old EU bent over backwards to explain away Han's Kessel Run bragging, has anyone official attempted to explain why turbolasers now fire in arcs, or why the dreadnought appeared to have no shields? Or why everyone appeared to just forget that tracking through hyperspace via homing devices is a thing? Or why the rebel fleet jumped into the Crait system 18hrs away from the planet, despite only having <18hrs worth of sublight fuel? Or what the difference is between the calls for help the rebels wanted to make, and the call for help that Poe makes to Maz?

[Sidewinder]

If the audience is going into a new series blind, as China's was (the reason 'The Last Jedi' did poorly in the Chinese box office, as noted here, then the film needs to remove the blindfold by "showing." Holding the audience's hand- "telling"- isn't optimal, but it's still better than leaving them wallowing in the dark.

That's the failure of the scriptwriters' worldbuilding. In 'The Force Awakens', it was Poe's presence that drew the First Order to the village. The massacre? The First Order blamed it on the provocation that was the presence of a Resistance member. Did that deserve the First Order's heavy-handed response? No more than the New Republic deserved to lose its capital planet for supporting the Resistance.

[The Romulan Republic]

I am curious, for anyone who's up on the new canon: has any explanation been given for some of the changes made to spaceship technology? In the same way that the old EU bent over backwards to explain away Han's Kessel Run bragging, has anyone official attempted to explain why turbolasers now fire in arcs,

Simple explanation:

They don't perform like any turbolaser ever seen-they're not standard turbolasers (note that I'm pretty sure that other laser canons are shown elsewhere in the film, firing in straight lines).

This is only a continuity error if you are looking to treat it as such.

or why the dreadnought appeared to have no shields?

Almost no canon ship has a visible shield bubble or anything like that. The Resistance cruiser in TLJ was an anomaly in that sense (and a justified one, to my mind, as it was an effective visual image for conveying the steady bombardment wearing the fleet down, and building tension).

The only time First Order ships are fired upon is by enemy fighters at close range, and it is WELL established that fighters can slip in under shields (as Kylo does when attacking the Resistance cruiser, and as the Rebel fighters attacking the first Death Star did).

Again, no error, if you're at all familiar with the canon, though it might be perceived as such by some viewers (but then, will most casually viewers really care?).

Or why everyone forgot that tracking through hyperspace via homing devices is a thing?

How would the First Order have placed a homing device on the Resistance fleet?

Admittedly, the possibility should have been considered, but I feel that this is a minor oversight.

Or why the rebel fleet jumped into the Crait system 18hrs away from the planet, despite only having <18hrs worth of sublight fuel?

Pretty sure that they had more fuel than that, and they were probably burning it faster than they normally would because a lot of it was probably going into keeping their shields up under constant bombardment.

Also, they never intended to stop in that system, remember? Going to that planet was a backup plan after they got tracked.

Or what the difference is between the calls for help the rebels wanted to make, and the call for help that Poe makes to Maz?

That's probably the most valid criticism. The only explanation I can think of is that Maz is fairly close, and its just one person, as opposed to trying to send a signal across the galaxy on a wide beam, taking more power.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Yeah, and rightly so. It would be tasteless, and would be seen, particularly in light of the ongoing political debates around feminism, and the "Rey is a Mary Sue" allegations, as an attempt to diminish the female characters to sex objects (even if that wasn't the intent).

That said, I can't help but think it would be funny if someone said "Phasma"- since the only thing we ever see of her is one eye. But that's just me feeling like being a wise-ass.

I see now that you reminded me of phasma that I ought to have been taking it literally, and note that Rose neither was in a hangar explosion nor fell into a flaming pit.

It wouldn't surprise me if Phasma did somehow survive, assuming her armour protected her from the flames. Given her helmet was partially destroyed though I can foresee some pretty nasty injuries either way. And she does strike me as the type who would hold a grudge!

[The Romulan Republic]

If the audience is going into a new series blind, as China's was (the reason 'The Last Jedi' did poorly in the Chinese box office, as noted here, then the film needs to remove the blindfold by "showing." Holding the audience's hand- "telling"- isn't optimal, but it's still better than leaving them wallowing in the dark.

My point is that the films' critics are demanding detailed justifications for every little thing, including things that would normally be taken at face value, as a disingenuous way to bash the films.

That's the failure of the scriptwriters' worldbuilding. In 'The Force Awakens', it was Poe's presence that drew the First Order to the village. The massacre? The First Order blamed it on the provocation that was the presence of a Resistance member. Did that deserve the First Order's heavy-handed response? No more than the New Republic deserved to lose its capital planet for supporting the Resistance.

I can bet that 90+% of audience members did not think "Oh, the massacre was Poe's fault for being there." Or "the New Republic had it coming', just because the filmmakers didn't think "Oh, showing the First Order committing genocide isn't enough to establish them as the bad guys." Just you.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, and rightly so. It would be tasteless, and would be seen, particularly in light of the ongoing political debates around feminism, and the "Rey is a Mary Sue" allegations, as an attempt to diminish the female characters to sex objects (even if that wasn't the intent).

That said, I can't help but think it would be funny if someone said "Phasma"- since the only thing we ever see of her is one eye. But that's just me feeling like being a wise-ass.

I see now that you reminded me of phasma that I ought to have been taking it literally, and note that Rose neither was in a hangar explosion nor fell into a flaming pit.

It wouldn't surprise me if Phasma did somehow survive, assuming her armour protected her from the flames. Given her helmet was partially destroyed though I can foresee some pretty nasty injuries either way. And she does strike me as the type who would hold a grudge!

You can retcon almost every major decision in TLJ easily if you have a mind to.

I'll be interested to see how much Abrams keeps when he resumes the helm, and how much he jettisons.

[Sea Skimmer]

It wouldn't surprise me if Phasma did somehow survive, assuming her armour protected her from the flames. Given her helmet was partially destroyed though I can foresee some pretty nasty injuries either way. And she does strike me as the type who would hold a grudge!

My gut feeling when I saw that shot was she's not dead. And that maybe she'll come back as some kind of combat cyborg , making that glimpse of her humanity a lot more meaningful, that was placed somewhere in between the mostly silly General Grievous and the too badass to ever be matched against Darth Vader. But really I also felt like it was probably meant to be open ending, they can bring her back if they think she's got a use in movie three and the audience probably won't care, but if she's dead the character ending was suitable. We are talking about a franchise where it's still canon that being cut in half and falling down a bottomless pit isn't certain death if your character is popular enough!

Course I also really gotta wonder how someone who let Starkiller Base be destroyed with the aid of one of her own mutinous men rather then eat a bullet for the cause is left in such an important command position, but the first order is so incompetent it's possible they don't actually know that's what happened. And that kind of anti merit based behavior might also just be how they got so incompetent in the first place.

[Silver Jedi]

They don't perform like any turbolaser ever seen-they're not standard turbolasers (note that I'm pretty sure that other laser canons are shown elsewhere in the film, firing in straight lines).

That's true. The smaller guns on the dreadnought, and on the smaller rebel ships appear to fire in straight lines (though we never see them fire beyond point blank range). Ditto for starfighter lasers.

So why do these new guns fire in ballistic arcs in deep space? This is what I'm expecting to eventually get a "kessel run is measure in distance because reasons" type explanation for eventually.

The only time First Order ships are fired upon is by enemy fighters at close range, and it is WELL established that fighters can slip in under shields (as Kylo does when attacking the Resistance cruiser, and as the Rebel fighters attacking the first Death Star did).

Like the Naboo fighters in TPM?

The rebel fighters at Yavin were able to slip past Death Star's defenses because they weren't configured to stop small ships (Gen Dodonna explains this in the briefing, and you hear them talk about passing through a magnetic field).

Kylo and his wingmen were able to get under the shield because it was all concentrated to the rear to protect from FO bombardment (analogous to the fighters at Yavin turning their shields to "double front" and subsequently getting one-shotted from the rear). Finn and Rose's entire plot revolves around trying to find a slicer hacker to get them past the shields and onto Snoke's ship. We see him have to employ his "rarefied cracking" skills to get under the shields.

The dreadnought simply... doesn't have shields. There is no explanation, and every reason for them to have shields up to defend against fighters/bombers. Poe simply flies up and starts blowing guns off the surface.

How would the First Order have placed a homing device on the Resistance fleet?

Admittedly, the possibility should have been considered, but I feel that this is a minor oversight.

The entire movie, I expected the twist to be that there was a mole who had planted a homing device on the cruiser. It would explain why Holdo was so serious about InfoSec, and would explain away the part where a janitor and a plumber accurately determine both the nature and weakness of the FO's "impossible" "new" tech in 30 seconds via inductive reasoning (which would neatly tie into some of the minor themes of the movie).

I feel like it's pretty generous to say that "all the main characters forget a major plot point from the first movie" a minor oversight.

Pretty sure that they had more fuel than that, and they were probably burning it faster than they normally would because a lot of it was probably going into keeping their shields up under constant bombardment.
Also, they never intended to stop in that system, remember? Going to that planet was a backup plan after they got tracked.

Then what was the original plan? They only had enough fuel for 2 hyperjumps, and they "know" that they can't be tracked through hyperspace. Why waste half of their fuel jumping to a deserted system first? Even then, if you're spending half of your fuel to jump to a system that you're not planning staying in, why not jump closer to the planet that has an abandoned base just in case?

The only explanation I can think of is that Maz is fairly close, and its just one person, as opposed to trying to send a signal across the galaxy on a wide beam, taking more power.

That seems reasonable, if contrived. Why not ask someone like Maz who is in range to retransmit their message?


The real answer to most of this seems to be that the writers didn't care enough to pay attention to how things were done in previous movies, so they made it all up as they went along, and the technology and characters just operated however it was most convenient for the plot. If I really want to nitpick, I'd ask why the regular FO Star Destroyers appear to be unarmed (seriously, they never fire a single shot the entire film) or how Rey knew where to have Chewie drop her off to find Kylo (she knew her beacon led to the rebel fleet, but explicitly did not know that they were being chased by the FO, and the Falcon jumped in right off the Supremacy's bow).

[AniThyng]

It wouldn't surprise me if Phasma did somehow survive, assuming her armour protected her from the flames. Given her helmet was partially destroyed though I can foresee some pretty nasty injuries either way. And she does strike me as the type who would hold a grudge!

My gut feeling when I saw that shot was she's not dead. And that maybe she'll come back as some kind of combat cyborg , making that glimpse of her humanity a lot more meaningful, that was placed somewhere in between the mostly silly General Grievous and the too badass to ever be matched against Darth Vader. But really I also felt like it was probably meant to be open ending, they can bring her back if they think she's got a use in movie three and the audience probably won't care, but if she's dead the character ending was suitable. We are talking about a franchise where it's still canon that being cut in half and falling down a bottomless pit isn't certain death if your character is popular enough!

Course I also really gotta wonder how someone who let Starkiller Base be destroyed with the aid of one of her own mutinous men rather then eat a bullet for the cause is left in such an important command position, but the first order is so incompetent it's possible they don't actually know that's what happened. And that kind of anti merit based behavior might also just be how they got so incompetent in the first place.

Spoiler

in her tie in comic she basically hunted down the one FO officer who knew what really happened and killed him, then killed the FO pilot she roped in to help her, then framed the officer for what happened at starkiller. Supposed to show she's a ruthless survivor who will do anything to maintain her position