One ISD in ST galaxy (serious)

[Sea Skimmer]

Railguns are bad, compared to plasma based guns. You have to support against the structural stress of firing the round, the recoil, and most of the energy must come from you, not the plasma which contributes large amounts of thermal damage.

The ship could just have a large mass of metal attached to the front, ramp up the desired speed while heading towards the target, then release the mass and alter course. That would be effective against something on a predictable course at least like a space station.

You would not need to worry about recoil at least.

[SirNitram]

Railguns are bad, compared to plasma based guns. You have to support against the structural stress of firing the round, the recoil, and most of the energy must come from you, not the plasma which contributes large amounts of thermal damage.

The ship could just have a large mass of metal attached to the front, ramp up the desired speed while heading towards the target, then release the mass and alter course. That would be effective against something on a predictable course at least like a space station.

You would not need to worry about recoil at least.

But plasma weapons will still deliver more bang for your buck. For the energy costs of that, you could do it with a like amount of plasma, and tack on thermal damage.

[SCVN 2812]

1. As an Imperial commander, hit and run tactics are my only hope. I must avoid large fleet engagements at all costs as a large group of ships, 21 minimum assuming these are top of the line ships as in the DS9 episode Die is Cast, are roughly equivilant to my ship. This won't be too difficult as Alpha Quadrant races tend to spread their forces so thinly that the creation of a force large enough to pose a significant threat takes roughly a day to two days. Once large task forces are formed the job of doing as much damage as possible becomes much easier as I can use probe droids to determine the locations of large fleets before I strike and hit targets that would take them several hours to reach, by which time I will be long gone having bombed major cities from orbit (the Emperor's dead, Coruscant's been the victim of genocide so I'm pissed, I'm not going to screw around with military targets, I'm in this to inflict pain and suffering upon my enemies). This will continue until I run out of supplies. Once my supplies run low, if I cannot go home, then I will launch a kamikaze strike on Earth. Using the last of my fighters as cannon fodder and my last probe droids to scout the system, I will be able to make a surgical hyperspace jump right into orbit of Earth and begin laying waste to the planet's major cities until I am destroyed by ground and orbital defenses and the first fleet.

Question 2: Form fleets of several dozen ships with fighter support. Station these fleets at important systems with others operating on seek and destroy missions, patroling Federation space looking for any sign of the enemy ship. Because most of the ships in the Federation fleet are older model ships refit with whatever modern technology they can handle, losses are likely to be extreme in any engagement. State of the art, ships of the line are to be stationed at the highest priority systems. Because my fleets cannot be every where and even at maximum warp the Federation would take weeks to cross, strategic mobility is on the side of the enemy and until he makes a mistake and attacks a well fortified system losses, especially among civilian populations due to this commander being motivated mainly by a desire for vengeance (see above) not that I am aware of this unless Q told me so or the commander broadcasts any messages justifying his attacks. The campaign is bloody and long, and ends when the Destroyer commander makes a mistake or runs out of supplies (where upon he will likely make a suicide run looking to cause the maximum amount of damage before his supplies are exhausted).

[Enforcer Talen]

why not start with earth?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

OK, conceded. Just would like to tell you though, that AFAIK your 1500mph stats for your fighters are at high altitude (generally 10,000m, but some are taken as high as 20,000m.) They bear about as much relevance to what happens at sea level as fighters to asteroids in aerodynamics.

You CAN technically make a RPG style (I mean Rocket Propelled Grenade) KEM that would achieve low recoil, but that increases the cost of the weapon. By the time you are done, you might as well introduce yourself to the...concussion missile by adding a guidance system and blast warhead to the conglemeration. They do fit those onto VSD-Is, IIRC, and they have four tubes that probably can use them on Acclamators.

The asteroids in TESB are hitting, but the exact damage to shielded ISDs is UNKNOWN. The effect to a unshielded bridge tower is known, and that's about it. For all you know, the damage is invisible to all known purposes when shielded.

A RG necessitates limited ammunition, which reduces total consumables life.

No one knows the KE of the railgun, but it is a significant threat. However, the structural systems of the shield are taking it better than the ability of the power surge handlers, so it is an energy-handling problem, and thus the KE would probably be similar to the TE of HTLs or even perhaps cheaper planetary defense cannon.

[Cpt_Frank]

1. As an Imperial commander, hit and run tactics are my only hope. I must avoid large fleet engagements at all costs as a large group of ships, 21 minimum assuming these are top of the line ships as in the DS9 episode Die is Cast, are roughly equivilant to my ship.

No. TDIC operation was nowhere near a BDZ. That is established, if you like it or not.

Even assuming 21 ships could conduct a BDZ operation, the ISDs shields can withstand 30 minutes of bombardment with weapons as strong as his own, that means the 21 ships would have to survive at least 30 minutes, which they won't, since a single shot from the ISD's heavy guns is enough to kill 1 ship instantly. And that is taking your claim that 21 ST ships can conduct a BDZ operation as true, which it isn't.

An ISD does not need to fear any fleet the alpha quad powers can field against him.

[SirNitram]

OK, conceded. Just would like to tell you though, that AFAIK your 1500mph stats for your fighters are at high altitude (generally 10,000m, but some are taken as high as 20,000m.) They bear about as much relevance to what happens at sea level as fighters to asteroids in aerodynamics.

You CAN technically make a RPG style (I mean Rocket Propelled Grenade) KEM that would achieve low recoil, but that increases the cost of the weapon. By the time you are done, you might as well introduce yourself to the...concussion missile by adding a guidance system and blast warhead to the conglemeration. They do fit those onto VSD-Is, IIRC, and they have four tubes that probably can use them on Acclamators.

The asteroids in TESB are hitting, but the exact damage to shielded ISDs is UNKNOWN. The effect to a unshielded bridge tower is known, and that's about it. For all you know, the damage is invisible to all known purposes when shielded.

A RG necessitates limited ammunition, which reduces total consumables life.

No one knows the KE of the railgun, but it is a significant threat. However, the structural systems of the shield are taking it better than the ability of the power surge handlers, so it is an energy-handling problem, and thus the KE would probably be similar to the TE of HTLs or even perhaps cheaper planetary defense cannon.

Minor nitpick. The VSD-I's have 80 tubes.

[Darth Wong]

No. TDIC operation was nowhere near a BDZ. That is established, if you like it or not.

You'll never convince SCVN812 of that. He's a Trekkie "vs" debater, which means he seamlessly switches between "visuals are evidence" and "visuals are completely meaningless", ie- from objective to subjective methods (and then back again, in order to claim objectivity) whenever it suits him.

An ISD does not need to fear any fleet the alpha quad powers can field against him.

One possible AQ tactic might be to ram him at high velocity with large numbers of ships, although that would presume he sits still and lets them try different tactics on him rather than conducting hit and run attacks on strategic targets, as dictated by prudent strategy.

[DocMoriartty]

As the Captain of the ISD I would focus on the most important areas first but in a random pattern.

First stop is a run straight at the Starbase orbitting Earth. The station should go down in a matter of moments to a full asault. If things are not too hot I would follow this up with leveling San Francisco.

Once this is done I Hyper out and began a random pattern of attacks. Other starbases will be hit when I see them alone without heavy ship support. Lone starships will also be a prime target. Intermixed in I will make very short intense assaults on ship construction facilities and orbital dockyards.

As Starfleet I would see that a proactive solution is very difficult with an enemy that much faster than me. This is even more true when I learn that the ship refuses to stick around for any battle that looks to inflict even minor damage on the Star Destroyer. So the best defense is a good offense might not work. It is possible to try so sitting duck targets and send out ships extremely loaded with explosives. I might get lucky and have the ISD drop in to take one of these out only to get killed when the suicide bomb is detonted. Further action would include protective minefields around important targets. Even an ISD is going to get hurt if it gets hit my several multi-megaton mines when it drops in to real space.

[tharkûn]

You CAN technically make a RPG style (I mean Rocket Propelled Grenade) KEM that would achieve low recoil, but that increases the cost of the weapon. By the time you are done, you might as well introduce yourself to the...concussion missile by adding a guidance system and blast warhead to the conglemeration. They do fit those onto VSD-Is, IIRC, and they have four tubes that probably can use them on Acclamators.
Its already been done. The US military has a LOSAT KEM in development right now. All a KEM is, is a bigass engine (rocket, ion, whatever) strapped to an impactor mass. For a Relativistic KEM (RKEM), guidance systems are almost worthless. Remember TL's move at STL speeds so your KEMs would be going *faster* than your TL's and go farther.

Reasons why concussion missiles are not a substitute for KEM's:
1. Longer ToF's.
2. The warhead is superflous. If you have enough KE putting a warhead on it does effectively nothing.

Not to say that concussive missiles are useless, rather that they fill a different niche. A sufficiently fast KEM has *no* need of an explosive warhead.

"The asteroids in TESB are hitting, but the exact damage to shielded ISDs is UNKNOWN. The effect to a unshielded bridge tower is known, and that's about it. For all you know, the damage is invisible to all known purposes when shielded. "
But we do know some things:
1. The ISD's are vaping the asteroids.
2. The MF, hiding in the asteroid feild is wanted alive.
3. The officers are complaining of damage.

Now the MF is unsheilded hiding on an asteroid. Any compotent commander would recognize this. If they are alive they are down and they are minimizing emissions. So if the imps shot up an asteroid the MF is on ... good bye MF.

So the Imps are risking *destroying* their primary objective ... exactly why would they do this if the asteroids weren't dangerous to their ships?

Further if you are complaining to *DARTH VADER* about the danger, I'd call it significant. Do you honestly think an imperial officer would whine about minimal casualties which might result in him getting choked to death?

"A RG necessitates limited ammunition, which reduces total consumables life. "
Umm TL's have limited ammunition. They are *not* energy weapons (as they move at STL speeds) so some form of matter is used in the firing.

Frankly KEP's and KEM's are not that hard to store and if you have a good method of convernting EM into KE ... ludicriously easy. In the latter case (a one needs only something 1% efficient) you can quite literally use the garbage as ordinance.

"No one knows the KE of the railgun, but it is a significant threat."
How much time between the shot and it hitting? Any clue on the mass/volume?

"However, the structural systems of the shield are taking it better than the ability of the power surge handlers, so it is an energy-handling problem, and thus the KE would probably be similar to the TE of HTLs or even perhaps cheaper planetary defense cannon."
Depends entirely on which systems are being effected. For instance one defense against a KEM is to slow it with a counter force (i.e. a tractor pushing it away). That doesn't work against large KE's (or they would have used it in TESB) but against something smaller it might have an effect, but you still have the problem that when you slow an object the KE has to go somewhere. This system could easily have troubles shunting the energy, but not have any problems with momentum.

One possible AQ tactic might be to ram him at high velocity with large numbers of ships, although that would presume he sits still and lets them try different tactics on him rather than conducting hit and run attacks on strategic targets, as dictated by prudent strategy.
Question, how many suicide GCS (pull up along side, self destruct) do you think it would take to kill an ISD?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

No. TDIC operation was nowhere near a BDZ. That is established, if you like it or not.

And NDF means it wasn't brute force anyways.

[Witness]

I don't know if this has been proposed, but it was inspired after reading something Wong wrote about leaving the AQ ripe for picking from the Breen and Borg.

Why not have the ISD collect a list of Federation enemies and decide which ones to reach an agreement with for.. say.. food and other supplies? This would be after bombing a couple of worlds to show sincerity. Supply the ISD.. watch your enemy get blown to bits.

Seems simple enough to work.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I think I misspelled your name last time. Anyway.

I know a KEM like you propose is possible. However, a concussion missile is probably the closest thing to a KEM available already in the SW galaxy, so perhaps you can use that as a benchmark to see what KEMs in SW are likely to be able to do and not do.

Oh, by the way, SirNitram. I know a Vic has 80 tubes. When I said four tubes, I meant the Acclamator.

The superfluous of the warhead depends on the terminal KE.

Of course they are vaping the asteroids. No one said that letting an asteroid hit anywhere (even if it does no real damage) is a good idea. Besides, it does keep the crews sharp, doesn't it?

Most of the asteroids they're vaping are too small to really conceal the MF. The MF is hiding in an asteroid, and they decide to scare them out of that one with TIE Bombers dropping what seems to be some kind of scare charges.

Darth Vader IS hot-tempered but he's not a total idiot. Anyone that could have assembled C3PO when he was eight has some intelligence going for him. And it is a significant threat. If the shields go down for any reason, an a asteroid finds the vulnerable bridge tower...you get my drift? Remember where the Captain will be in the search.

TLs used to have limited ammo. Now they are back to being full energy weapons, with things like light bullets being used to explain the visible part. There is an invisible component that now moves at lightspeed, making that part a full energy weapon.

No data, but the ISD cannot evade the pattern. Besides, it could be firing neutronium pellets for all you know.

The shield generators are apparently being burned out (OK, fine, slagged) by the backsurge. The rounds are being vaped, and apparently the KE is going into the shield as a power surge. But then so would probably TE, the TE also has to go somewhere. I'll guess its momentum is within the structural limits, and the KE is within energy handling limits of a ISD in general or above.

[Master of Ossus]

Actually, a "chip" missile is the closest think to a KEM weapon available in SW. It is a small launcher, carried by a single man, and designed to provide infantry with some ability to knock down speeders or unshielded starfighters.

Concussion missiles are used in a completely different manner, as demonstrated when Han was only able to pressurize a pair of launchers in order to get the missiles out the tubes in the NJO (I think it was SbS).

[tharkûn]

I know a KEM like you propose is possible.

KEM's already exist in the world:

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/losat/

The basic idea is get a bigass engine (in the real world case a solid state rocket engine, in SW's use ion drives or whatever). If recoil is an issue (which I doubt) you can use KEM's, which are glorified hunks of metal (or whatever) being driven by a serious engine.

However, a concussion missile is probably the closest thing to a KEM available already in the SW galaxy, so perhaps you can use that as a benchmark to see what KEMs in SW are likely to be able to do and not do.
Closest thing is likely Adm. Daala' aborted suicide run with an ISD. She's planning to hit a *sheilded* planet and do significant damage by ramming it. Again if you can manage to move the DSI, you *must* have more efficient engines for KEMs. Further KEM's are only needed if we grant that recoil would be an issue for KEP's. With kinetic energy projectiles you only need a launcher capable of delivering the force and shunting any recoil to the greater bulk of the ship. This really shouldn't be that hard to engineer ... just use similar bracing to your engines.

Given their observed acceleration and the specs on mass ... they can most certainly mount KEM's that deliver more than the TESB asteroids.

The superfluous of the warhead depends on the terminal KE.
This is a space battle we are talking about, there are very few gimmics to slow them down - no friction, no wind resistance, virtually no exlectro-weak forces to speak of. F = ma (until we get into relativity) ... if you have an engine providing X amount of thrust you will get X/m acceleration which gives (X/m)*ToF for final v (assuming the engine has enough fuel to last this *very* short flight at full acceleration and negligable mass loss).

The only way that terminal KE goes down is an action from the target ... of course we have never seen such action from an ISD (never deflected a TESB asteroid). Further it takes *time* to deploy such measures. Given the energy availible and even modest efficiency you are going to have *very* little time to react.

Of course they are vaping the asteroids. No one said that letting an asteroid hit anywhere (even if it does no real damage) is a good idea. Besides, it does keep the crews sharp, doesn't it?
No. Asteroids are very easy to predict trajectory (at least with some good optics and computer), we have mapped countless ones from earth with 20th century technology. As opposed to a real target which, I dunno, *jukes*, changes speed, employs ECM, etc ... its shooting fish in a barrel. We have seen imperial gunners make some *damn* good shots ... you did get that sharp shooting pathetically predictable targets with *0* ECM.

Most of the asteroids they're vaping are too small to really conceal the MF. The MF is hiding in an asteroid, and they decide to scare them out of that one with TIE Bombers dropping what seems to be some kind of scare charges.
Do you know how stupid that sounds? You have ISD's which are firing with enough firepower to obliterate the falcon. *1* misfire could potentially kill the *MISSION OBJECTIVE*. I mean hell if Han does panic and run, he might fly right into an HTL blast which has a good chance of killing the mission objective.

It's like sending a SWAT team to pick up a felon hiding in a warehouse. You don't send live machine gun fire flying around the place while trying to smoke him out ... unless you want him dead. Battlefields are chaotic and the chances of killing the subject are too high. You do not use live fire in the vicinity of somebody who is hiding that you want alive without a damn good reason (like self-protection).


Darth Vader IS hot-tempered but he's not a total idiot. Anyone that could have assembled C3PO when he was eight has some intelligence going for him.
Really then why does he kill a perfectly compotent Captain who was simply outclassed by Han? Face it Vader is a *sociopath* with homocidal tendancies. Even guys who play it *by the book* and fail due to circumstances beyond their control get killed. Intelligent people are often the most vicious of killers. Intelligence has very little to do with morals and ethics.

You are not going to be complaining about chipped paint to somebody who has a habit of killing people for stupid reasons.

If the shields go down for any reason, an a asteroid finds the vulnerable bridge tower...you get my drift? Remember where the Captain will be in the search.
Since when did the Empire hire Starfleet egineers? Do their sheilds have a habit of going down unexpectedly (cough*FATAL_COMBAT_FLAW*cough)? Do high KE impacts make them fall down?

If any of this is true then it makes KEM's and KEP's even *more* viable.

Now yes I know about ion damage from Hoth, however that goes back to Vader being a sociopath and how badly he wants these guys found alive. If he's willing to send ships to their death against rocks that normally would *scratch their paint* he's friggen nuts and any ISD captain would not fire his HTL's potentially risking the death of the MF.

TLs used to have limited ammo. Now they are back to being full energy weapons, with things like light bullets being used to explain the visible part. There is an invisible component that now moves at lightspeed, making that part a full energy weapon.
Contradicts cannon. We have seen on *numerous* occassions how TL shots are fired and do NOT behave like pure energy. I.e. the DS, you fire 4 beams at different angles, end up with 1 beam heading out. Real energy does not do that. If TL's are pure energy then the definition of pure energy has changed dramatically.

In any event remember with the energy for 1 HTL shot you could accelerate 1000kg to .99c with good efficiency. The ToF difference is negligable between a RKEM and and pure energy weapons.

No data, but the ISD cannot evade the pattern. Besides, it could be firing neutronium pellets for all you know.
Lol and if its firing neutronium pellets the moon's orbit is going to be going to hell and back. You do understand that neutronium is so frikking dense that a small glob would out mass the earth, right? I mean its density is 10^47 kg/km^3.

The shield generators are apparently being burned out (OK, fine, slagged) by the backsurge. The rounds are being vaped, and apparently the KE is going into the shield as a power surge.
Umm I beleive ISD's have seperate particle/energy sheilds. So the failure is in the particle sheilds ... yet more evidence that the ship can't handle RKEMs.

Look it simply comes down to this either ISD's are vunerable to KE weapons with total energies a fraction of HTL yeilds, we have RANK IDIOTS running the TESB asteroid feild, or we reach ST drivel when the ship stops working as a plot device.

I'm not seeing any other options. If you want someone alive you don't shoot in their general vicinity without a *damn* good reason.

[Ender]

Concussion missiles are used in a completely different manner, as demonstrated when Han was only able to pressurize a pair of launchers in order to get the missiles out the tubes in the NJO (I think it was SbS).

IT was in EoV: Rebirth

[SirNitram]

In any event remember with the energy for 1 HTL shot you could accelerate 1000kg to .99c with good efficiency. The ToF difference is negligable between a RKEM and and pure energy weapons.

I was unaware there were references to the energy used by a HTL. Source?

[Ender]

God Dammit, the ESB asteroid scene is real simple Tarkun.

Holocom cannot be used while shields are up.
Vader, not caring about the crews, orders a holocomference while in the middle of the asteroid field.
Captain was using holocom when asteroid hit.
ERGO:
Shields were down.

No conflict. Absolutly zero. Simple to understand as well. Yet Trekkies have a real difficult time understanding that if a big ass rock hits an unshielded, unarmored portion of the hull, there is going to be a big bang.

[SirNitram]

God Dammit, the ESB asteroid scene is real simple Tarkun.

Holocom cannot be used while shields are up.
Vader, not caring about the crews, orders a holocomference while in the middle of the asteroid field.
Captain was using holocom when asteroid hit.
ERGO:
Shields were down.

No conflict. Absolutly zero. Simple to understand as well. Yet Trekkies have a real difficult time understanding that if a big ass rock hits an unshielded, unarmored portion of the hull, there is going to be a big bang.

Especially when we point out the Captain of the ISD didn't even die from it.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

How does me saying it is possible conflict with your statement that they exist or are in development?

I do not count kamikazes as comparable. And even the kamikaze would have involved the reactor blowing up.

I know that there are no things to slow them down. But you are now proposing something with a rocket engine behind, meaning it could still be accelerating when it smashes into the hull. Thus there IS a terminal KE that is different from initial KE.

Well, an asteroid is no fighter, but at least it is better than twiddling their thumbs, eh?

They only used their SMALLER guns, which apparently won't kill the Falcon in one shot! They didn't use MGs on the warehouse. They used something like smoke grenades and most warehouses DON'T have hundreds of little rocks acting as obstacles. NEXT!

The Captain apparently knows the target had not gone into hyperspace and it is almost zero chance that they have a cloaking device. If Captain Needa had played cool, he could have reacquired the Falcon. You will notice that when Piett failed to get the Falcon later, Vader forgave him. In short, Vader executes real fast, but about always for cause.

Any active system has a chance of failure and you know it. Besides, long range comms do require holocomm which requires the shields to be down. Most of the Destroyers made it back safely and NO ONE EVER USED AN HTL.

On the other hand, if it is not energy, then there are also problems. They are slow and will be dragged down.

The density of neutronium is 10^17kg/m^3. That's not a a fair sized chunk. And besides, I used it to tell you that we don't know a lot about the weapon.

The shield will hit the particle shields, but without the asteroid scene (and trust me, now the shields are considered to be down) the particle shield should take similar energies.

ISDs are vulnerable to KE with low yields when their shields are down in certain sections. It is safe to use LTL fire against the Falcon without danger of destroying it.

[tharkûn]

I was unaware there were references to the energy used by a HTL. Source?
I'm using KS's numbers there. Previously I had just quoted Mike's estimates from his "technology" section, I think I used the BDZ ones.

God Dammit, the ESB asteroid scene is real simple Tarkun.

Holocom cannot be used while shields are up.
Vader, not caring about the crews, orders a holocomference while in the middle of the asteroid field.
Captain was using holocom when asteroid hit.
ERGO:
Shields were down.
Several problems here:
1. A *sheilded* ship is firing. I'll double check it tommorrow, but I beleive the very ship Mike uses to establish his sheild calcs is *firing* at incoming rocks. If the sheilds can handle it *and are up* why bother shooting it.
2. These are frikking asteroids we are talking about. With a good computer and optics they should be able to predict the path of *EVERY* asteroid in the feild. They should be able to *TIME* their messages so they are transmitting when a big hunk of rock is not hurtling towards them. You have gunners capable of hitting highly maneuvarable fighters from the *SIDE*, you are telling me they don't have the means to track dumb asteroids?
3. We know SW sheilds can be opened at point locations, so open a very small gap over the communications array. If its a shortwavelength ... make it less than 1m across and you should be good to go, unless there is some treknobabble characteristic to holocoms.
4. Its DAMN STUPID DESIGN. Let's say for some unknown reason I need to use a holocom and I'm in a place where I need the sheilds up. I send a small ship/probe with a holocom a few hundred m from the ISD. I use a simple ordinary laser to pulse the message over, the cheapass expendable
ship/probe lowers *its* sheilds and transmits from there. Instant holocom connection with no risk to the ISD and uses 20th century tech to make the relay.
5. If Vader doesn't care about the crew (or apparently the hardware) why are they shooting? Vader wants the MF alive. Every shot they take increases the chances of destroying the MF (i.e. Han makes a break for it and accidently runs across an asteroid).

Look the MF is in the asteroid feild.
The Imps (assuming compotence) know something is wrong (otherwise he'd have hyped out with the rest of the rebels).

So they want to catch a potentially unarmored ship intact. Yet they are risking blowing it up (if its hiding on an asteroid they nail, or Han makes a break for it across a HTL shot).

Again every justification you come up with goes back to the Imps being IMBECILES. If the asteroids don't hurt you have *no* reason to shoot them and a very good one not to. If casualties are immaterial, so much so that Vader demands they drop their sheild so an asteroid they *know* is on an incoming course will crunch them, then again why fire? You risk killing your mission goal.

[SirNitram]

'It's A Stupid Design'.

Only you, Tharkun, could think it's intentional. It is, from all appearances, a DIRECT result of Imperial particle shielding, which closes off all access to subspace.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Actually, they are the officially listed YIELDS. It is all automatic. My calculations go up to 600-800GT, or even in the teratons

Again, it is good for keeping them awake. And the intricacies of shields might mean the energy draw of vaping it is less than letting the asteroid hit.

They can track dumb asteroids, but there IS room for human error in a field with millions of asteroids. They need to maintain constant contact with Vader, too. They just missed one until it came too close.

If they can open a gap over the comms array, that is. That depends on the location of shield projectors. No one really expects lots of long-range comm messages in a combat situation.

And why would they put necessarily put a holocomm suite with a small ship? Most smaller ships use subspace radios, max.

Vader needs to try and disable the Falcon too, so he can capture it properly.

It is not hard to scan for a little armor with sensors and shields up would show as a signal, too.

[tharkûn]

Only you, Tharkun, could think it's intentional. It is, from all appearances, a DIRECT result of Imperial particle shielding, which closes off all access to subspace.
Dumbass, did I *ever* say it was intentional? No. I said it was stupid design. I frankly don't give a rat's ass what from of communication ISD sheilding prevent it doesn't block visible light. So you take a your communication, digitize it, send it out on a laser pulse, have the probe take the optic signal convert the signal to a subspace one, send it to a probe next to Vader's SSD, that probe converts from subspace to optical, the optical signal is then pulsed through the sheilds into Vader's SSD which then presents him with a holo.

This is NOT a particularly advanced concept. You have some barrier to one form of communication, so you use a different form of communication to cross the barrier and change the signal back. We use it today in real military hardware (we can use laser pulses to transfer information even through excess radio jamming, then once outside of the jamming put the information on a radio and send it on from there).

I mean seriously if it's so damn vital to keep up constant communications you'd think compotent egineers would have figured out this barbarically simple way to do it without dropping the sheild.

Besides which you ignored the other criticisms of this moronic idea:
1. SW sheilds can open small holes. If you can't transmit through the sheilds you open a small hole over some communications array ... something too small for a large asteroid to break through.
2. If Vader is so nuts he'd rather have constant communications than let a ship break communications and raise their sheilds ... why are they shooting the asteroids? They are risking killing the MF with every shot, especially if Han does something desperate. If Vader doesn't care about casualties ... they would not risk shooting the MF.

"Again, it is good for keeping them awake. And the intricacies of shields might mean the energy draw of vaping it is less than letting the asteroid hit. "
Lol whatever. Shooting highly predictable targets does not keep you awake. Why would it take appreciably less energy to vape them with the TL's than with the sheilds (you do realize that the sheilds vape asteroids too, right?). Just how inefficient do you think their sheilds are?


"They can track dumb asteroids, but there IS room for human error in a field with millions of asteroids. They need to maintain constant contact with Vader, too. They just missed one until it came too close. "
Of course there is room for human error, which means you do NOT shoot the TL's when there is a chance they can vape the possibly unsheilded MF. Further they are not in constant contact with Vader ... because we do see sheilded ships who are also shooting the asteroids.

"If they can open a gap over the comms array, that is. That depends on the location of shield projectors. No one really expects lots of long-range comm messages in a combat situation. "
Just how STUPID do you think Imp egineer's are? If transmitting requires an opening the sheild so you can have full communications in battle there will *be* a way to open that hole. Hell you can move the transmitter next to the TIE hangar if needed ... we know they can open a respectably small hole there. Unless this going to devolve into technobabble ... there is no damn reason the Imps can open a small hole over the communications array.

Communications are *vital* in combat. Only a rank moron would have any limits on communications for a capital ship that are easily worked around.


And why would they put necessarily put a holocomm suite with a small ship? Most smaller ships use subspace radios, max.
Do it by *design*, I'm sure the Imps have some form of communication's relay (in case of jamming), if they don't they are stupid. This is a *really* simple way to get full communications through a sheilded ISD.

Look there are a *half-dozen* REALLY easy ways to work around your teknobabble cop-out. If the Imps aren't using them ... they are RETARDED.

Besides which even if we GRANT the whole no-sheilds to transmit crap .... that implies Vader doesn't give a *DAMN* about his men dying (otherwise he'd use a form of communication that doesn't need the sheilds lowered). If he doesn't care ... they they would not be vaping asteroids which is a risk to the MF.


"Vader needs to try and disable the Falcon too, so he can capture it properly.

It is not hard to scan for a little armor with sensors and shields up would show as a signal, too."
Of course he needs to disable it, but you don't do that with ISD TL's. Do you disable a PT boat with a few shots from the main guns off a Battelship? No, you use smaller guns and smaller ships. If the USN is trying to disable a small ship they will *NOT* fire the big guns anywhere near the ship ... too much risk of killing the objective.

As far as scanning goes ... it must be hard ... or there would be no need to move the *entire* task force into the asteroid feild (including the command ship). Even with multiple ISD's, support craft, and a SSD ... the Imps can't find Han. Inside a perfectly normal asteroid (no exotic particles).

[tharkûn]

Only you, Tharkun, could think it's intentional. It is, from all appearances, a DIRECT result of Imperial particle shielding, which closes off all access to subspace.
Dumbass, did I *ever* say it was intentional? No. I said it was stupid design. I frankly don't give a rat's ass what from of communication ISD sheilding prevent it doesn't block visible light. So you take a your communication, digitize it, send it out on a laser pulse, have the probe take the optic signal convert the signal to a subspace one, send it to a probe next to Vader's SSD, that probe converts from subspace to optical, the optical signal is then pulsed through the sheilds into Vader's SSD which then presents him with a holo.

This is NOT a particularly advanced concept. You have some barrier to one form of communication, so you use a different form of communication to cross the barrier and change the signal back. We use it today in real military hardware (we can use laser pulses to transfer information even through excess radio jamming, then once outside of the jamming put the information on a radio and send it on from there).

I mean seriously if it's so damn vital to keep up constant communications you'd think compotent egineers would have figured out this barbarically simple way to do it without dropping the sheild.

Besides which you ignored the other criticisms of this moronic idea:
1. SW sheilds can open small holes. If you can't transmit through the sheilds you open a small hole over some communications array ... something too small for a large asteroid to break through.
2. If Vader is so nuts he'd rather have constant communications than let a ship break communications and raise their sheilds ... why are they shooting the asteroids? They are risking killing the MF with every shot, especially if Han does something desperate. If Vader doesn't care about casualties ... they would not risk shooting the MF.

"Again, it is good for keeping them awake. And the intricacies of shields might mean the energy draw of vaping it is less than letting the asteroid hit. "
Lol whatever. Shooting highly predictable targets does not keep you awake. Why would it take appreciably less energy to vape them with the TL's than with the sheilds (you do realize that the sheilds vape asteroids too, right?). Just how inefficient do you think their sheilds are?


"They can track dumb asteroids, but there IS room for human error in a field with millions of asteroids. They need to maintain constant contact with Vader, too. They just missed one until it came too close. "
Of course there is room for human error, which means you do NOT shoot the TL's when there is a chance they can vape the possibly unsheilded MF. Further they are not in constant contact with Vader ... because we do see sheilded ships who are also shooting the asteroids.

"If they can open a gap over the comms array, that is. That depends on the location of shield projectors. No one really expects lots of long-range comm messages in a combat situation. "
Just how STUPID do you think Imp egineer's are? If transmitting requires an opening the sheild so you can have full communications in battle there will *be* a way to open that hole. Hell you can move the transmitter next to the TIE hangar if needed ... we know they can open a respectably small hole there. Unless this going to devolve into technobabble ... there is no damn reason the Imps can open a small hole over the communications array.

Communications are *vital* in combat. Only a rank moron would have any limits on communications for a capital ship that are easily worked around.


And why would they put necessarily put a holocomm suite with a small ship? Most smaller ships use subspace radios, max.
Do it by *design*, I'm sure the Imps have some form of communication's relay (in case of jamming), if they don't they are stupid. This is a *really* simple way to get full communications through a sheilded ISD.

Look there are a *half-dozen* REALLY easy ways to work around your teknobabble cop-out. If the Imps aren't using them ... they are RETARDED.

Besides which even if we GRANT the whole no-sheilds to transmit crap .... that implies Vader doesn't give a *DAMN* about his men dying (otherwise he'd use a form of communication that doesn't need the sheilds lowered). If he doesn't care ... they they would not be vaping asteroids which is a risk to the MF.


"Vader needs to try and disable the Falcon too, so he can capture it properly.

It is not hard to scan for a little armor with sensors and shields up would show as a signal, too."
Of course he needs to disable it, but you don't do that with ISD TL's. Do you disable a PT boat with a few shots from the main guns off a Battelship? No, you use smaller guns and smaller ships. If the USN is trying to disable a small ship they will *NOT* fire the big guns anywhere near the ship ... too much risk of killing the objective.

As far as scanning goes ... it must be hard ... or there would be no need to move the *entire* task force into the asteroid feild (including the command ship). Even with multiple ISD's, support craft, and a SSD ... the Imps can't find Han. Inside a perfectly normal asteroid (no exotic particles).