Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[jollyreaper]

They can commit to a movie every year if they stagger production. If it takes three years to really make a movie well and get everything good in post, just financed 3 movie simultaneously. That way you always have three in the pipeline and one coming out every year. What you're saying about a rush would be true if they tried to do a movie every year in the same series. In order to make that work you would have to not do it like The Hobbit but more like Lord of the Rings where everything is filmed in one go and then you have 3 years to stagger the post production and release.

But I think you're correct. The movies will continue to be bloodless. You know how tie in video games licensed from movies tend to be the worst? It feels like the movies or now licensed tie-ins for movies.

[Kojiro]

In order to make that work you would have to not do it like The Hobbit but more like Lord of the Rings where everything is filmed in one go and then you have 3 years to stagger the post production and release.

I'm honestly surprised it wasn't done that way. Or with even an over arcing plot. To me it is *insane* that they didn't plan it beyond the immediate movie in production.

[ray245]

In order to make that work you would have to not do it like The Hobbit but more like Lord of the Rings where everything is filmed in one go and then you have 3 years to stagger the post production and release.

I'm honestly surprised it wasn't done that way. Or with even an over arcing plot. To me it is *insane* that they didn't plan it beyond the immediate movie in production.

They threw out whatever development that was done by Lucas and started from scratch. TFA was nothing but a movie made to buy time.

[CaoCao]

I do think the plot rushed her growth too much, leaving little room to go (which created the Mary Sue issue).

On JJ, its a mixed thing. I believe he's better than Ryan, specially in directing actors (Daisie had better interaction with the rest of the characters in TFA than in TLJ). My doubt is with his mistery boxes, which are fine for movie 1 of a trilogy, but not so much for movie 3.

I'm not too critical of Ryan, but my view of Abrams is basically that he's a good director, who should be kept far, far away from writing the films.

The writing should have been centralized for the entire trilogy. They needed someone like George at the helm of the story. Not to completely restrict directors, but to make sure everything tied in with previous material (and left room for future spin offs if that's their objective). If its true Ryan started without knowing what was going to happen in TFA, then they started on the wrong foot.

The idea to see FO crumble would be good, but it doesn't seem to be the kind of movie they want to do.

Well, TLJ set it up nicely, if they do want to go that route.

In terms of story, probably. But they have been avoiding getting too much into the politics and would leave little room for the heroes to be the light that would burn the FO.

About fans, I guess everyone had one or several parts of TLJ that rubbed them the wrong way (to me, it was Luke and Leia's portrayal/destiny), coupled with bad plots. And when that happens, you stop overlooking the flaws (and you start nitpicking even on the mechanics of those damned bombers).

Edit: several typos.

Eh, several aspects of the film pissed me off. I just feel that the positives overall outweigh them, and the flaws are not inexplicable or severe enough to cause irreparable damage to the franchise.

I couldn't see much positive there.

[The Romulan Republic]

The writing should have been centralized for the entire trilogy. They needed someone like George at the helm of the story. Not to completely restrict directors, but to make sure everything tied in with previous material (and left room for future spin offs if that's their objective). If its true Ryan started without knowing what was going to happen in TFA, then they started on the wrong foot.

If that is true, someone at Disney/Lucasfilms fucked up massively. Probably several someones. Not really the directors' fault, maybe- in fact I feel rather bad for them, getting caught up in such a poorly-managed franchise.

In terms of story, probably. But they have been avoiding getting too much into the politics and would leave little room for the heroes to be the light that would burn the FO.

If the First Order disolves into infighting, it gives the heroes (who otherwise are in a very weak position) an opening to deal the final blow. Although the bigger question, to me, would be "Can they build something stable to take the First Order's place?"

But yes, that would likely involve more overt political scenes than this series seems comfortable with, damn the Prequel whiners for getting their way.

Politics doesn't have to be boring- only incompetently written and directed politics is.

I couldn't see much positive there.

Off the top of my head:

-Continuation of Finn's character development from someone who's just running, to someone who's willing to take a stand for the people he cares about, to someone who has now fully embraced the cause.
-Leia using the Force like a full Jedi (the scene was painful to watch because of what happened to Carrie Fisher in real life, but I can't really fault the filmmakers for that).
-Luke and Leia's reunion.
-More capital ship action.
-They managed to up Kylo's threat level while still keeping the underlying patheticness that is central to his character.
-Subverting the tired old "Lone hero goes rogue against corrupt/incompetent leader" plot with Poe and Holdo.
-Luke's last stand. Just beautiful.

[jollyreaper]

In order to make that work you would have to not do it like The Hobbit but more like Lord of the Rings where everything is filmed in one go and then you have 3 years to stagger the post production and release.

I'm honestly surprised it wasn't done that way. Or with even an over arcing plot. To me it is *insane* that they didn't plan it beyond the immediate movie in production.

I think it's the least important part of the equation for them. Like have you ever met a woman who is obsessed with getting married? Like has the wedding planned out, all the details, the dress, the menu, the seating arrangements, etc? A friend of mine was like this. She joked that she always wanted to get married and the groom is TBD. That's funny as a joke and all but a horrible way to approach a marriage.

And before anyone says aha!, misogyny, I can give you the non-gendered example of parents who have the future planned out for the kid and they've thought of everything except whether or not this is the life the kid wants to have.

Pretty much it's getting so caught up in the details that you miss the whole point of why you're doing it in the first place. So Disney is working on the moichandizin' details, the financing, the budgets, tie-ins to the theme park, setting up game licenses, book deals, etc, and nobody stopped them to say "So, uh, what's the story? We're making three of these things. Do we know?" And if anyone played the clip of Lucas saying a special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing he'd be defenestrated.

[Rhadamantus]

The different directors is also crippling, especially with the order. JJ Abrams set up a bunch of empty mystery boxes, Rian Johnson went fuck you and wrapped up the plot, and the third movie now has no role. It is literally the worst possible order.

[The Romulan Republic]

The different directors is also crippling, especially with the order. JJ Abrams set up a bunch of empty mystery boxes, Rian Johnson went fuck you and wrapped up the plot, and the third movie now has no role. It is literally the worst possible order.

I emphatically disagree with the oft-repeated assertion that there is nothing left to resolve in the next film.

Let's see:

The First Order is still around. We have Kylo as the lead villain (with the Knights of Ren/Luke's former students as other villains who have been foreshadowed/hinted at, and can be brought into play).

We also have the budding Hux vs. Kylo conflict to play out.

Rey's journey has a very logical next step. Okay, she has no famous family background. The question, then, becomes: "What identity will she forge for herself?" Given events in TLJ, the obvious next step is for her to have to step into the role of a leader, and trainer of Jedi. To continue/redeem Luke's legacy. Something which is outside of her current experience.

There's also the budding Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle to resolve.

Just off the top of my head, and presuming that Abrams doesn't retcon any of Ryan Johnson's choices (Rey's identity could be easily retconned as just Kylo sensing and playing on her own insecurities and lying to her, though I don't know if it would be advisable to do so).

God knows if they actually WILL follow up on any or all of that. But its all right there, easy to follow up on from the set-up TLJ's ending gave us.

Edit: I mean, even without getting into things they really ought to get into, like galactic politics, and even discounting retconning TLJ's plot or continuing things which TLJ has already established like Poe taking on a leadership role (which could foreshadow a similar journey for Rey and/or Finn), that is still four distinct major plot lines to sort out (plus they need to write Leia out of the series somehow, sadly). That's not enough for a single film?

[The Romulan Republic]

So, a question from someone who doesn't follow the EU all that closely:

Who the hell is Snoke?

Now, I'm glad that they didn't end up making him secretly Plageius or whatever, because that would have been stupid, contrived wank, and it would stink of creative sterility. I much prefer him being a new character who just saw an opportunity in the post-Empire power vacuum and took advantage of it. But it does rather beg the question of who he is and where he came from.

My pet theory until prove otherwise: He was an Imperial Inquisitor. IIRC, it was mentioned in "Rebels" that there were thirteen of them, and I think only three ever appeared on-screen. This would fit with his similarities to Palpatine, his modeling his regime on the Empire, and his seeming familiarity with Vader (and decision to seek out an heir to Vader as his apprentice), especially since the Inquisitors were under Vader's command. It would also explain where he got training in using the Dark Side, since I doubt he could reach such a level of skill and power if he was completely self-taught.

However, unlike the Inquisitors we see in "Rebels", his assignment was not hunting down Rebels, but rather hunting down Force artifacts/texts or something for Palpatine. This might explain why he is closer in style and methods to Palpatine than Vader, and also why he has a sort of "Dark Side philosopher" shtick going on. Or maybe he was working on secret superweapons projects (like Starkiller Base). This also puts him conveniently out of the way when the Empire collapses.

Of course, with the Empire gone, he would no longer enjoy Palpatine's patronage, and if his identity as an Inquisitor was known, he would likely be a wanted man. So he lies low for a few years, nursing a grudge against the New Republic and Luke in particular, until the NR thinks the fighting is over and its safe to start disarming. During that time, he begins to recruit from impressionable young people who were children during the height of the Empire and grew up on its propaganda (fanatics like Hux, for example).

Just my personal theory, but I think it fits very well. The only big problem is that he seems in a different weight class from the Inquisitors we've seen, but maybe his powers grew over the intervening decades as he learned new techniques. Or maybe he kept the extent of his powers hidden, preferring to operate in the shadows rather than get killed for being a potential rival to Vader.

***

Another random thought:

Rey seems to use a lot of aggression in combat, practically snarling or shouting a battle cry at times. Yet she does so without falling to the Dark Side.

It makes me wonder if she would have had potential to learn Vapaad techniques, if there were anyone left alive to teach her.

[Mange]

Okay, she has no famous family background.

While I do hope that'll still be the case, we really don't know that. Johnson obviously took another approach to the question of Rey's parents than Abrams.

These are opinions and no opinions are more valid than others but...

-Continuation of Finn's character development from someone who's just running, to someone who's willing to take a stand for the people he cares about, to someone who has now fully embraced the cause.

Finn and Poe are the two worst main Star Wars characters. Finn is essentially useless if it wasn't for him having been a janitor and thus somehow knows pretty much everything there is to know about the hyperspace tracking device.

-Leia using the Force like a full Jedi (the scene was painful to watch because of what happened to Carrie Fisher in real life, but I can't really fault the filmmakers for that).

The Mary Poppins scene. Yes, it was painful to watch and if it hadn't been for Carrie Fisher's tragic death, I'm sure it would've been much ridiculed. For me, the entire movie was painful to watch because of Fisher.

-Luke and Leia's reunion.

Too bad about Han...

-More capital ship action.

You mean the onesided, overlong, minimalistic and flat out boring nBSG-esque chase involving a handful of active capital ships travelling in a straight line? I would also have liked if it had been Admiral Ackbar who had sacrificed himself instead of Admiral Cocktail Dress whom we just had been introduced to. I also find it baffling that Poe didn't know about her as the size of the Resistance.... or was it back to Rebels again... was down to a handful of people.

Again, my opinions aren't more valid, but those are a few of the reasons I don't agree with yours.

I do like your theory on Snoke!

[GuppyShark]

I would also have liked if it had been Admiral Ackbar who had sacrificed himself instead of Admiral Cocktail Dress whom we just had been introduced to. I also find it baffling that Poe didn't know about her as the size of the Resistance.... or was it back to Rebels again... was down to a handful of people.

When I saw the film I got the impression that Poe was expecting himself to be named the new leader. That might have just been me, though.

[Vendetta]

I would also have liked if it had been Admiral Ackbar who had sacrificed himself instead of Admiral Cocktail Dress whom we just had been introduced to. I also find it baffling that Poe didn't know about her as the size of the Resistance.... or was it back to Rebels again... was down to a handful of people.

When I saw the film I got the impression that Poe was expecting himself to be named the new leader. That might have just been me, though.

Yeah, I also got that impression.

Remember that almost all scenes on the Raddus are framed as being from Poe's perspective, we only learn information when he learns it and we are suckered into seeing things the way he sees them in order to make us believe that the plan to infiltrate the Supremacy is the right and heroic path (when actually it's the ego trip of a hypocritical and insubordinate dumbass).

[Crazedwraith]

You mean the onesided, overlong, minimalistic and flat out boring nBSG-esque chase involving a handful of active capital ships travelling in a straight line? I would also have liked if it had been Admiral Ackbar who had sacrificed himself instead of Admiral Cocktail Dress whom we just had been introduced to. I also find it baffling that Poe didn't know about her as the size of the Resistance.... or was it back to Rebels again... was down to a handful of people.

He didn't recognised her face but he did recognise her name. He says something like 'That's Vice Admiral Holdo? The Hero of [someplace I can't remember]?"

[tezunegari]

When I saw the film I got the impression that Poe was expecting himself to be named the new leader. That might have just been me, though.

I never got the impression he expected to be put in charge.
He would have been informed prior to the briefing and he sat among the audience not the command staff giving the briefing.

Remember that almost all scenes on the Raddus are framed as being from Poe's perspective, we only learn information when he learns it and we are suckered into seeing things the way he sees them in order to make us believe that the plan to infiltrate the Supremacy is the right and heroic path (when actually it's the ego trip of a hypocritical and insubordinate dumbass).

Why didn't Leia order the Bomber wing to abort the attack? Only Poe deactivated his communicator.
She might have not agreed with the attack but she allowed it to happen...

Poe also stated that the Fulminatrix is a fleet killer. One without Fighter-cover and because of him without defense-turrets.
Taking it down would mean one less for the Republic Remnants and local defense fleets to worry about.
In my oppinion that scene actually showed that Poe saw the bigger picture and took the opportunity to take down a dangerous asset of the enemy with minimal losses compared to what a defended Siege dreadnought would have cost the Republic.
And IIRC until that destroyed TIE/fo impacted that one bomber... they had only lost a single bomber to concentrated fire.

If he was the audience viewpoint that received information as the crew of the Raddus did... then Holdo failed at keeping morale up and everyone focusing on the plan.

Rose had to stop three or four attempts at desertion before she met Finn.
Lt. Connix, a bridge officer, helped Poe, Finn and Rose with their plan... so apparently the command crew of the Raddus didn't know.
How many people assisted Poe in his mutiny?

All that went wrong aboard the Raddus, the failure at Canto Bait and the death of most of the Resistance can be laid down at the feet of Holdo.
A single shipwide speech was all it would have taken to get everyone on the ship working with the plan.

And if Holdo was afraid of a spy aboard the ship... then just fueling the transports would have given away the plan anyway.

With the information available to Poe... he only made two mistakes - first when he found out about the transports being fueld and accusing Holdo of being a traitor and coward (unprofessional, but considering the circumstances), the other when he mentioned the transports to Finn while on route to the Supremacy.

But the first mistake (accusing Holdo of cowardice) was based on the lack of information about Crait. Without this essential piece of information Holdos plan looks like she wants to continue the chase with unshielded transports once the Raddus runs out of fuel.

The moment Poe learned about the planet, and the plan being to hide on Crait until the First Order passes he immediately agrees that it is a good plan.

What Holdo should have done:

• wear a Resistance uniform, not a cocktail dress (and Leia should have as well)
• keep her speech direct and professional (not this "faith is hard when there is no light" bullshit)
• inform the whole crew of the Raddus as soon as possible about the plan and Crait
  And this wouldn't have taken long. Just add a scene where she gives a short update on the situation to the crew: "The First Orde will hunt this ship relentlessly. So we will let them. As I speak, transports are being prepared to take us to an old rebel hideout. There we will stay until evacuation ships of our Outer Rim allies can pick us up. Your teamleaders will have your orders."

Instead she appears to have no plan beyond "keep running until a miracle happens" - at least to me and apparently Poe as well.
If they want strong female leaders, they should write them as such.

[Vendetta]

Why didn't Leia order the Bomber wing to abort the attack? Only Poe deactivated his communicator.
She might have not agreed with the attack but she allowed it to happen...

She did, Poe disobeyed that order and his command was personally loyal enough to him to follow.

Poe also stated that the Fulminatrix is a fleet killer. One without Fighter-cover and because of him without defense-turrets.

The Fulminatrix being a "fleet killer" is only relevant if you have a fleet. The Resistance didn't, they had one ship. It's a strategically irrelevant target which was now tactically irrelevant as well because it was busy shooting at a base that had been evacuated.

If he was the audience viewpoint that received information as the crew of the Raddus did... then Holdo failed at keeping morale up and everyone focusing on the plan.

No, Poe clearly recieved information later than everyone else because when he finds out about the transports being fuelled everyone else already knows.

How many people assisted Poe in his mutiny?

About half a dozen that were personally loyal to him. That's why it's trivially defeated and he can't secure anything outside of a locked room.

All that went wrong aboard the Raddus, the failure at Canto Bait and the death of most of the Resistance can be laid down at the feet of Holdo.
A single shipwide speech was all it would have taken to get everyone on the ship working with the plan.

Most people on the ship were working with the plan, only Poe, who doesn't mutiny until he finds out what the plan actually is and a few people personally loyal to him fuck it up and get everyone else killed.

With the information available to Poe... he only made two mistakes - first when he found out about the transports being fueld and accusing Holdo of being a traitor and coward (unprofessional, but considering the circumstances)

Also hypocritical, because his plan is also to run away but to tweak the nose of the enemy in the process which is "more brave and heroic".

Instead she appears to have no plan beyond "keep running until a miracle happens" - at least to me and apparently Poe as well.
If they want strong female leaders, they should write them as such.

Yes, to you and Poe because the film deliberately hides any information not known to Poe from you. Whilst making it actually clear if you pay attention that other people do know that information.

(I think this is one of the reasons critics rate TLJ a lot higher than Star Wars fans. Critics see something like this framing used to trick you into a certain perspective and appreciate how it works on the level of cinema construction and fans get upset that they got fooled into backing the wrong horse so they try and argue that they weren't wrong.)

[Vympel]

What Holdo should have done:

• wear a Resistance uniform, not a cocktail dress (and Leia should have as well)
• keep her speech direct and professional (not this "faith is hard when there is no light" bullshit)

This is Leia's own words and clearly worked on Poe until he saw the transports being fueled and immediately flipped out because he couldn't see past the fate of the cruiser.

[Crazedwraith]

We still doing the Poe/Holdo thing?

It's worth noting that when Poe mutinied he didn't know the plan. All he knew was 'shuttles fuelled' and mutinys before any points out the sensible destination with him.

This very stupid yes but saying Poe mutinied after he knew the plan is incorrect. When it's pointed out to him about Crait and he realises what the plan is he's on board with it. (but his stupidity has already doomed them, though that's entirely unrelated to the mutiny as such)

But if Holdo told literally everyone apart from those who mutinied on her, well that doesn't seem very sensible. I mean is it literally just she was super strict with need to know, even as mutiny and desertion was rife?

[Vendetta]

Poe has literally just shown himself to be insubordinate and strategically incompetent.

There are absolutely strong reasons for cutting him out of need to know information.

[Crazedwraith]

Sure but as we've agreed before just not telling him shit is a stupid half-measure. Either throw him in the brig like he deserves or treat him like your senior officer that he still is on paper.

Or come straight out and say 'There is a plan. It's need to know, and you don't need to know it', without the flowery hope shite. (Which I think she must have said in some draft edit of the film and it got cut out because Poe says exactly that about her later that seems like it must have been written as an ironic echo. )

[Vendetta]

Again though, the film is specifically framed to fool you into agreeing with Poe's perspective.

You're upset that you fell for it and all the things you're arguing that Holdo "should" have done are you making excuses for why the film tricked you.

[Crazedwraith]

Again though, the film is specifically framed to fool you into agreeing with Poe's perspective.

You're upset that you fell for it and all the things you're arguing that Holdo "should" have done are you making excuses for why the film tricked you.

Sure the film makes us sympathise with Poe, that doesn't mean Holdo is perfect and above reproach.

I'm also pretty sure your recognition of 'the trick' is backfiring. The film may want us to realise Poe is imperfect but he's still supposed to be redeemed at the end. We're probably not supposed to think 'Poe is an irredeemable incompetent traitor they should shoot as soon as they reach Crait' as you have said.

[Civil War Man]

The way I see it, Holdo had legitimate reasons not to tell Poe the details of the plan. The dumb move on her part was her abject refusal to say that a plan even existed. Normal military commanders in that kind of situation would answer "Do we have a plan?" with "We do, and you will learn the details of it when you need that information." Holdo's answer of "We have hope" only makes sense if the subtext of that is "We have absolutely no plan" or "I am a plot device that is being intentionally misleading because we need to trick you, the audience watching this movie, into thinking that there is absolutely no plan." The latter is a strange path for a series that otherwise ascribes to the whole immersive second world method of storytelling, since that is not normal human behavior. Including plot points that only make sense from the standpoint of it being a movie that is designed to subvert audience expectations and make them go "What a twist!" is pretty much the exact opposite of immersive.

But I think you're correct. The movies will continue to be bloodless. You know how tie in video games licensed from movies tend to be the worst? It feels like the movies or now licensed tie-ins for movies.

As I mentioned before, I think part of the bloodlessness is due to there not being much of a discernible endgame beyond "Defeat the First Order," which works well enough for a few movies, but has not really been set up as the kind of threat that could carry a franchise for decades.

The MCU is an interesting comparison, because it's constantly building up to something on multiple levels. The solo ventures follow fairly standard narrative structures, and are able to exist largely independent of each other. You don't need to have seen Iron Man 1 and 2 to understand what's going on in the first Captain America, for example, but if you do see them first, you have basically bonus content with the inclusion of Howard Stark, and get a little more insight into Tony by getting to know more about his father. Then, on top of that, all of the solo movies in each phase build up towards the ensemble movies that end the phase. And the third layer is gradually setting up the Infinity War through the introduction of the Infinity Stones and Thanos. As for what comes after, I remember Feige saying that they plan on shifting the focus of the MCU after they finish the Infinity War. Maybe, for instance, they are going to use the Captain Marvel movie to plant the seeds of the Kree/Skrull war.

[The Romulan Republic]

While I do hope that'll still be the case, we really don't know that. Johnson obviously took another approach to the question of Rey's parents than Abrams.

I can see pros and cons either way. Rey being a Skywalker would have worked better with the preceding films, and could have given her interactions with Luke much greater depth. I also think it would have fit with the overall progression of the Jedi in the first two trilogies, from an order which shuns attachment and family to one that embraces and is made stronger by it (but we can still have that, somewhat, if Rey and Finn get together and have Jedi babies ). It also would have fit better with TFA's set-up.

On the other hand, its at least original, and the democrat (small d in this case) in me loves the idea that Rey is special because of who SHE is, rather than because she has an elite bloodline.

Also, Rey being a Skywalker would have made the shippy scenes with Kylo so much creepier (though I'd much rather that that aspect of TLJ had never happened at all in any case, especially given that the only prior interaction between them that was in any way suggestive of anything sexual was a veiled rape threat/subtext from Kylo in TFA). It is an element of the film that is only partly salvaged by its ultimate subversion, and the whole thing feels needless manipulative of the audience to me, and gives off a "pandering to the shippers"/"bad fan-fic" vibe. It is probably the closest that any element of the film came to being a deal-breaker for me.

I do think that its probably too late to make Rey a Skywalker in any case, or at least too late to gain the full advantage of doing so- the best time to do that would have been TLJ, where it would presumably have had the most effect on her interactions with Luke and Kylo. And it would likely seem awkward now. You could do it, but it would be tricky to do it effectively.

But yeah, the ultimate results of this decision are in the category of "too soon to say".

These are opinions and no opinions are more valid than others but...

I beg your pardon, but some opinions are definitely less valid than others- bigoted opinions, for example (though that doesn't particularly apply here), or ones that are based on objective factual inaccuracies (which does apply to some of these, in my opinion).

Finn and Poe are the two worst main Star Wars characters. Finn is essentially useless if it wasn't for him having been a janitor and thus somehow knows pretty much everything there is to know about the hyperspace tracking device.

I like Finn very much, both for the actor's performance, and for the backstory and journey that was set up in TFA, which is a highly unique one for a Star Wars protagonist.

He did not contribute much to the overall outcome of the film's plot this time around, but I don't think that that made his inclusion in the film pointless- it was about continuing his journey from a deserter who was just trying to escape, to someone who was willing to take a stand for the people he cared about, to now being someone who has embraced a larger cause, after getting a chance to interact with a rank-and-file resistance member and see the galaxy, and himself, through their eyes. I wrote a rather lengthy analysis of it earlier, which I can repost if you wish.

I do find the whole "janitor" thing irritating, not because I have a problem with the filmmakers making Finn a janitor, but because I think that it subconsciously biases a lot of people to see him as a useless incompetent (to be clear, this criticism is not directed at you personally).

The Mary Poppins scene. Yes, it was painful to watch and if it hadn't been for Carrie Fisher's tragic death, I'm sure it would've been much ridiculed. For me, the entire movie was painful to watch because of Fisher.

Fair enough, but again, its not really the filmmakers' fault. In fact, I seem to recall reading somewhere (I think it was TV Tropes, but I'm not sure) that the director chose not to cut any of Leia's scenes because he didn't want to cut Carrie Fisher's last performance. So it was written and filmed (obviously) before her death, and if it was kept in out of respect for Fisher, I'm okay with that.

As to the presentation of the scene itself- its not the way I'd have chosen to showcase Leia's Force powers, but I'm glad that we at least got to see Leia be a Jedi for a bit (sort of), rather than completely ignoring the implication that she would be trained as a Jedi at the end of RotJ .

It also somewhat ameliorates (though does not completely eliminate) the rather nasty implications arising from the fact that of the Skywalker twins, the woman is portrayed as being the weaker and more passive in the Force, and of her spending two films waiting for her brother to come save her.

Too bad about Han...

Yeah, but that's a point against TFA, not TLJ.

You mean the onesided, overlong, minimalistic and flat out boring nBSG-esque chase involving a handful of active capital ships travelling in a straight line?

Onesided- that's not really a criticism to me. A lot of the battles in Star Wars are one-sided. In fact, those tend to be the more interesting ones.

Overlong- this is more subjective, but it didn't bother me much. It was intercut with other stuff (arguably too much so), and I felt that the gradual whittling down of the Resistance fleet effectively built tension and established the desperation of their situation, and the stakes for the film.

I don't deny that it was very reminiscent of some of NBSG, but I don't really care about the exact number of ships or the specific maneuvers that they use. I care much more about the perspective of the characters inside those ships, and the dramatic opportunities arising from using an environment other than a dogfight or a boarding action. Indeed, a larger number of active ships flying every which-way could have easily ended up overcluttered, like I found the Battle of Coruscant in RotS- just so much meaningless flash.

Oh, and cap ships are just cool in and of themselves.

I would also have liked if it had been Admiral Ackbar who had sacrificed himself instead of Admiral Cocktail Dress whom we just had been introduced to.

Fair enough, though belittling Holdo by calling her "Admiral Cocktail Dress" is bordering on sexism, in my opinion. Though I do agree that she ought to have worn a more practical military uniform.

I also find it baffling that Poe didn't know about her as the size of the Resistance.... or was it back to Rebels again... was down to a handful of people.

He knew her by reputation, just not by appearance. If she's an admiral, she was likely with the capital ships, not on Leia's base in TFA (when the Resistance was larger). The Resistance was only reduced to a handful of people over the course of TLJ (much of those losses after Holdo's death).

This is a criticism based on misconstruing the sequence of events, and an unproven assumption that the entire Resistance was always present at one base.

Again, my opinions aren't more valid, but those are a few of the reasons I don't agree with yours.

And, of course, you are entitled to your opinion. But it irritates me when people insist on attacking or discrediting every single aspect of the film. The Prequels got the same treatment, and it irritated me off their too. Its like its not enough to just criticize the films' flaws, or to just not like them- no, they have to be completely bad in every single way.

I remember we had a thread a while back arguing that the colour of the lightsabers was wrong in the Prequels. I have no strong opinion on that either way, but I felt like rolling my eyes, because at some point, the seeming need to bash every single aspect of the films just starts seeming petty, vindictive, and obstinate.

I do like your theory on Snoke!

Thanks. I think it would fit very neatly with the existing canon.

[The Romulan Republic]

Without getting into the larger Poe vs. Holdo debate, I'd like to address this:

What Holdo should have done:

• wear a Resistance uniform, not a cocktail dress (and Leia should have as well)

Probably, yes, although this doesn't really say much about her leadership skills one way or the other.

At the same time, be aware that there is a long history of people using appearance as a way of belittling female leaders.

[*]keep her speech direct and professional (not this "faith is hard when there is no light" bullshit)

Inspiring rhetoric is nothing new to military speeches, and she was probably right that the crew needed a morale boost there. Her choice of words may not work for you personally-that's largely subjective-but I don't think that there was anything inherently "unprofessional" about such an approach.

[*]inform the whole crew of the Raddus as soon as possible about the plan and Crait
And this wouldn't have taken long. Just add a scene where she gives a short update on the situation to the crew: "The First Orde will hunt this ship relentlessly. So we will let them. As I speak, transports are being prepared to take us to an old rebel hideout. There we will stay until evacuation ships of our Outer Rim allies can pick us up. Your teamleaders will have your orders."[/list]

Aside from the problems this would have had for the film, from the point of view of creating suspense and creating a subversion of the "lone hero rebels against corrupt/incompetent authority figure" plotline-

Remember, they were being tracked through hyperspace- something that is supposed to be impossible. The logical suspicion, under those circumstances, would be that there is a spy on board. So Holdo keeping her plans close to her chest makes sense.

Granted, that should have been stated in the film at some point. But its a reasonable explanation.

And, let's be fair- Holdo had zero reason to confide anything in Poe. She doesn't know him, he's just been demoted for reckless insubordination, and as soon as she takes command he's their, questioning her methods and demanding answers from her.

Instead she appears to have no plan beyond "keep running until a miracle happens" - at least to me and apparently Poe as well.

Military leaders are not under an obligation to make a general announcement of their battle plans to the rank and file. Also, note that Leia did not make a general announcement of this plan either- but she's a beloved OT character, so I guess she gets a pass?

If they want strong female leaders, they should write them as such.

I'd argue that they did with Holdo, for the most part, even if they played up the conflict between her and Poe a little too strongly. One of TLJ's flaws is that it tries too hard to subvert audience expectations rather than just tell its own story, so it does things which are infuriating at the time so that it can subsequently subvert them, and often ends up feeling awkward.

Its also a reason why I say that people should see the film twice even if they hated it the first time- because you WILL miss a lot the first time around, in part as a result of the film deliberately playing with your perceptions.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

In order to make that work you would have to not do it like The Hobbit but more like Lord of the Rings where everything is filmed in one go and then you have 3 years to stagger the post production and release.

I'm honestly surprised it wasn't done that way. Or with even an over arcing plot. To me it is *insane* that they didn't plan it beyond the immediate movie in production.

That's how I felt watching TFA in the theater. As it became more obvious that there was no real plan to the new trilogy, I got that spine-chilling X-Files feeling where the world just isn't right. Disney paid 4 BILLION dollars for the franchise and then, what, gave it to an intern to curate? No one thought they should follow what was going on with the franchise? It's crazy to see such flagrant incompetence and/or apathy at such a high level, even in a Pres Trump world.