Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[Gunhead]

Meh, character quality is pretty subjective and it's not like Rey is the only one that's done pretty badly. I don't particularly like any of the characters in the new SW films, at best I think they're decent but that's about it.
Specially in TFA and TLJ I can't escape the feeling that the writers just focused on what the characters are and mistook that for characterization. Rey is the new force jesus, Poe is hotshot super pilot, Finn is.. useless but gets some actual character growth.
This doesn't bother me all that much because all three new SW movies trundle along with a relatively brisk pace having some good pew pew action and some space pew pew action so I really don't have a huge problem with characters being too much built to keep the plot moving.

That being said, I also think specially in Rey's case, her bland characterization and force jesusness are the things that give people who want to paint the writers as people who promote SJW ideology ammunition and it would be far easier to shut them up if writers had done a better job.

-Gunhead

[The Romulan Republic]

Meh, character quality is pretty subjective and it's not like Rey is the only one that's done pretty badly. I don't particularly like any of the characters in the new SW films, at best I think they're decent but that's about it.
Specially in TFA and TLJ I can't escape the feeling that the writers just focused on what the characters are and mistook that for characterization. Rey is the new force jesus, Poe is hotshot super pilot, Finn is.. useless but gets some actual character growth.

Rey has relatively little growth in TFA, more in TLJ. Its still a bit thin, but we get a look at her dark side, and she does appear to overcome it and embrace her identity as a Jedi by the end of TLJ. We'll see if that carries over, and if she grows further (particularly weather she resolves her internal conflicts over her identity), in the next film.

Poe learns a lesson about being a reckless insubordinate hothead in TLJ, but that's about it.

Finn has the strongest arc, yes, though I really don't know where this idea that Finn is "useless" comes from. He successfully defects from the First Order and breaks Poe out with him, shoots down Tie Fighters on the Falcon, provides crucial intel. and assistance to the Resistance to break onto and destroy Starkiller Base (without which Rey would have died), and stands up to Kylo Ren for a couple minutes in a fight (buying time for Rey to recover).

He doesn't do much to help the Resistance in TLJ beyond simply being one more grunt in the final battle (and an insubordinate one at that). But he does at least manage to take out Phasma. I do hope he gets to do more constructively in the next film, but I think his role in TLJ was more about him growing to become an active supporter of the Resistance and committed to its cause, as opposed to just a defector from the First Order who likes Rey and Poe.

This doesn't bother me all that much because all three new SW movies trundle along with a relatively brisk pace having some good pew pew action and some space pew pew action so I really don't have a huge problem with characters being too much built to keep the plot moving.

That being said, I also think specially in Rey's case, her bland characterization and force jesusness are the things that give people who want to paint the writers as people who promote SJW ideology ammunition and it would be far easier to shut them up if writers had done a better job.

-Gunhead

People who "want to paint the writers as people who promote SJW ideology" (go on, you can call them Neo-Fascists) are going to find "ammunition" weather you give it to them or not. If its not there, they'll just twist the facts, or outright lie. To the kind of people who are likely to see TFA and TLJ as "SJW ideology", the very presence of non-white male leads is probably all the "proof" they need.

[The Romulan Republic]

Also, I'd say that Luke is more of a "Force Jesus" in the ST, at least in his death. It might even be intentional, given that when he walks out to face Kylo, their is a light in the shape of a cross in the background (though its very subtly in the background, not at all overt) as he walks by. He dies and then (presumably) rises again (as a Force ghost) in order to redeem (bring hope to) the galaxy. Hell, he's even got the beard and robes.

If you really wanted to stretch the analogy, you could even say that he is "crucified" (Kylo Ren's saber is basically an upside down cross, thanks to the crossguard) shortly before his death.

He's also unquestionably more powerful than Rey.

At best, Rey is just a Force saint.

Edit: Of course, Anakin is the most obvious Jesus analog, with the Chosen One destiny and virgin birth created by the Force (ie God). But unlike Jesus, Anakin falls to darkness, and it is Luke (his son) who redeems him and allows him to fulfill his destiny.

So yeah, Luke is the strongest candidate for Force Jesus.

[Gunhead]

Finn has the strongest arc, yes, though I really don't know where this idea that Finn is "useless" comes from. He successfully defects from the First Order and breaks Poe out with him, shoots down Tie Fighters on the Falcon, provides crucial intel. and assistance to the Resistance to break onto and destroy Starkiller Base (without which Rey would have died), and stands up to Kylo Ren for a couple minutes in a fight (buying time for Rey to recover).

He doesn't do much to help the Resistance in TLJ beyond simply being one more grunt in the final battle (and an insubordinate one at that). But he does at least manage to take out Phasma. I do hope he gets to do more constructively in the next film, but I think his role in TLJ was more about him growing to become an active supporter of the Resistance and committed to its cause, as opposed to just a defector from the First Order who likes Rey and Poe.

It's more of a gut reaction really. I think Finn was too much of a plot device in the TFA and pretty much was instigated into action by need or by other characters and never really did anything out of conviction or with confidence. He does get better in TLJ but sadly most of his time is wasted on the pointless "Save the space horsies" plotline. It would have also given the character a lot more substance if his decision to save Poe wasn't so much internet meme "Are we the baddies??" and had been triggered by some more substantive experiences. Yea there was the massacre at the start of TFA but I still felt it was too Meh.

This doesn't bother me all that much because all three new SW movies trundle along with a relatively brisk pace having some good pew pew action and some space pew pew action so I really don't have a huge problem with characters being too much built to keep the plot moving.

That being said, I also think specially in Rey's case, her bland characterization and force jesusness are the things that give people who want to paint the writers as people who promote SJW ideology ammunition and it would be far easier to shut them up if writers had done a better job.

-Gunhead

People who "want to paint the writers as people who promote SJW ideology" (go on, you can call them Neo-Fascists) are going to find "ammunition" weather you give it to them or not. If its not there, they'll just twist the facts, or outright lie. To the kind of people who are likely to see TFA and TLJ as "SJW ideology", the very presence of non-white male leads is probably all the "proof" they need.

No point in giving them more either. If the characters are good, it's harder to lay baseless accusations. Back when Fury Road came out, people of certain ilk did bitch and moan about Furiosa and basically got shot down by any and all who had even the basest ability to feed oxygen to their brains. Yes, regardless of quality, some people will find some reason to whine about something or the other. It's racists, it's SJW propaganda etc. Because in reality, they are pretty much the vocal minority and if you want to shut them up, you want the majority to see through their bullshit.

-Gunhead

[The Romulan Republic]

It's more of a gut reaction really. I think Finn was too much of a plot device in the TFA and pretty much was instigated into action by need or by other characters and never really did anything out of conviction or with confidence. He does get better in TLJ but sadly most of his time is wasted on the pointless "Save the space horsies" plotline. It would have also given the character a lot more substance if his decision to save Poe wasn't so much internet meme "Are we the baddies??" and had been triggered by some more substantive experiences. Yea there was the massacre at the start of TFA but I still felt it was too Meh.

I think that the motivation for Finn's defection is pretty clear. The massacre is part of it, but it comes on the tail of being exposed to the horror of battle and seeing his comrades gunned down around him, and is followed by his fear of what will happen to him if he stays with the First Order, having disobeyed orders. Remember, he only flees once Phasma catches on to something being off with him.

He doesn't originally save Poe out of any affection for Poe, but because Poe is a good pilot and hence his ticket off of Kylo Ren's ship. He subsequently latches onto Poe and Rey, most likely, because they're the only friends he has.

There are some characterization problems in TFA, to be sure, but I never had a problem with this.

No point in giving them more either. If the characters are good, it's harder to lay baseless accusations. Back when Fury Road came out, people of certain ilk did bitch and moan about Furiosa and basically got shot down by any and all who had even the basest ability to feed oxygen to their brains. Yes, regardless of quality, some people will find some reason to whine about something or the other. It's racists, it's SJW propaganda etc. Because in reality, they are pretty much the vocal minority and if you want to shut them up, you want the majority to see through their bullshit.

-Gunhead

Well, obviously, I want the characterization to be as solid as possible, but that's more because I want good characterization for its own sake. I just don't think it makes much difference with a lot of these people. To them, the presence of women and minorities in non-stereotyped/subservient roles is in and of itself proof of a sinister agenda.

[The Romulan Republic]

I watched that out of curiosity. Most of it is generic fanboy complaints, and I never did have much regard for the "Snoke is Plagueis" and "Rey is a Kenobi" fan theories (which never to my knowledge had a shred of real evidence or basis to them, and could literally have been pulled out of a random plot generator). But the bit of Kylo meeting Anakin's Force ghost was funny. That's something I'd kind of like to see actually happen. And seeing how happy cartoon Rey was at finding out her ancestry was surprisingly bitter-sweet.

Also, I find it amusing that their ending was actually way more over-the-top than any of the Force feats shown in the actual film.

[Straha]

Well I mean, by definition they aren't fanfic and the reasons why "Mary Sue" held currency in fanfiction criticism don't apply.

Mary Sue as a criticism isn't restricted to fanfiction.

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience." -Wikipedia

So no, I don't think Rey is Mary sue, bland, boring and badly written maybe but not a Mary sue.

-Gunhead

None of those are meaningful criticisms outside of fanfic criticism, where the reason the Mary Sue exists as a critique comes down to the idea that the fanfic author must avoid imposing on the original work, and self-insertions and wish fulfillment etc. are considered impositions.

But outside of that:

"Idealized and seemingly perfect": Billy Budd, Zhuge Lang and Liu Bei, etc.

"Author insert": Lancelot du Lac in both Malory and White.

"Wish fulfillment": Robin Hood, William Tell.

"given the amount of training or experience": Sir Galahad, Sir Gareth Beaumains, King David.

There's a lot of fiction with quite respectable backgrounds which fails these criteria.

Funnily enough, the original Star Wars which originated as Flash Gordon fanfiction would probably explicitly fit this bill...

[Vympel]

Already posted a few pages back, but yeah - it's actually poking fun at the fandom's more hacky and lame ideas a lot (dead giveaway: the "Darth Plagueis" bit, i.e. "oh ... ok that has nothing to do with anything ...").

[jollyreaper]

None of those are meaningful criticisms outside of fanfic criticism, where the reason the Mary Sue exists as a critique comes down to the idea that the fanfic author must avoid imposing on the original work, and self-insertions and wish fulfillment etc. are considered impositions.

But outside of that:

"Idealized and seemingly perfect": Billy Budd, Zhuge Lang and Liu Bei, etc.

"Author insert": Lancelot du Lac in both Malory and White.

"Wish fulfillment": Robin Hood, William Tell.

"given the amount of training or experience": Sir Galahad, Sir Gareth Beaumains, King David.

There's a lot of fiction with quite respectable backgrounds which fails these criteria.

Funnily enough, the original Star Wars which originated as Flash Gordon fanfiction would probably explicitly fit this bill...

You can get away with it if the story is good enough. I mean consider the criticism "derivative." Well, everyone has their influences. You're hardly going to create something without having seen something before, right? It's impossible to not have influences. But what makes someone influenced by someone rather than derivative of? It's the quality, of course.

T.S. Eliot on stealing:
One of the surest tests [of the superiority or inferiority of a poet] is the way in which a poet borrows. Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different than that from which it is torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no cohesion. A good poet will usually borrow from authors remote in time, or alien in language, or diverse in interest.

[TheFeniX]

You don't have 1 or 2 elements of a Stu to get there. It's a culmination of multiple factors. I actually find them pretty rare, especially in mainstream content because there are already established characters who will react in a certain way and these writers know how to either write adversity or can put their characters into situations where something bad can happen to them.

When certain people get ahold of characters is where it gets into fanfiction tier. One of the few examples is Seagal's character Casey Ryback from a few of his shitty movies. He's like the epitome of a Marty Stu.

Ultimate badass, but kept down in rank due to the stupidity of the military.
The good guys fawn over him.
The women fawn over him.
The BAD GUYS fawn over him and talk about how super-special fucking badass he is and how they're all dead, yet they still stick around to get destroyed by him. This is actually a huge red-flag right here: when even the bad guys are smitten with a character.
He fucking annihilates everyone who stands in front of him, making most tension seem nonexistent.
The good guys on the outside are superrelieved he's on hand to bail them out, while the 1-2 assholes who try and slow him down get it handed to them by the end.

By contrast, a director somehow made a fist-fight between Michael Ironside (who is awesome) and Arnold Schwarzenegger not look like the one-sided beatdown it would be in real life. Same thing with Denzel Washington vs John (3rd Rock from the fucking Sun) Lithgow. (Who also, is awesome). Seagal demolishes everyone in front of him in comically one-sided fights. I pick these example due to the Action Movie nature of the them.

It's this never ending battle where the character is fighting the plot for 1st place to say "LOOK AT ME, I'm why you're here!" Just being "really really really good at 1 or 2 things" doesn't get you there.

My final red flag for Rey is still Leia hugging her over Chewy. If that sounds petty, so be it. Because the scene still makes no sense. It's like if I died and at my funereal my wife walked right past my best friend to hug and console her automechanic because both happened to be there when I died.

Goddamn man, I felt so shitty for Chewbacca in that scene, mostly because it felt like they were pushing him to the side to say "Here's the new generation! YOU MUST LOVE THEM! PASS THAT TORCH FUCKER!"

[Straha]

My final red flag for Rey is still Leia hugging her over Chewy. If that sounds petty, so be it. Because the scene still makes no sense. It's like if I died and at my funereal my wife walked right past my best friend to hug and console her automechanic because both happened to be there when I died.

Goddamn man, I felt so shitty for Chewbacca in that scene, mostly because it felt like they were pushing him to the side to say "Here's the new generation! YOU MUST LOVE THEM! PASS THAT TORCH FUCKER!"

Watch the scene again. Chewie carries Finn to the medical cart and then is shown walking with it and paying attention to it. When we see Leia we do see Chewie's back but it's clear that he's still moving with it. Meanwhile, Rey is shown being dazed coming off the Falcon. Rather than awkwardly interrupt Chewie from attending to a wounded comrade Leia went to the dazed and confused person who was standing by herself and who had also just experienced physical and mental torture, something Leia has a passing familiarity with.

[Effie]

You can get away with it if the story is good enough. I mean consider the criticism "derivative." Well, everyone has their influences. You're hardly going to create something without having seen something before, right? It's impossible to not have influences. But what makes someone influenced by someone rather than derivative of? It's the quality, of course.

T.S. Eliot on stealing:
One of the surest tests [of the superiority or inferiority of a poet] is the way in which a poet borrows. Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different than that from which it is torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no cohesion. A good poet will usually borrow from authors remote in time, or alien in language, or diverse in interest.

So your argument is that high-quality things are good, and low-quality things are bad. I don't see how any of the other things you're saying around it matter, then.

[Galvatron]

Can't say I disagree with a lot of that, especially the Ackbar and Canto Bight stuff.

[The Romulan Republic]

My final red flag for Rey is still Leia hugging her over Chewy. If that sounds petty, so be it. Because the scene still makes no sense. It's like if I died and at my funereal my wife walked right past my best friend to hug and console her automechanic because both happened to be there when I died.

Goddamn man, I felt so shitty for Chewbacca in that scene, mostly because it felt like they were pushing him to the side to say "Here's the new generation! YOU MUST LOVE THEM! PASS THAT TORCH FUCKER!"

Watch the scene again. Chewie carries Finn to the medical cart and then is shown walking with it and paying attention to it. When we see Leia we do see Chewie's back but it's clear that he's still moving with it. Meanwhile, Rey is shown being dazed coming off the Falcon. Rather than awkwardly interrupt Chewie from attending to a wounded comrade Leia went to the dazed and confused person who was standing by herself and who had also just experienced physical and mental torture, something Leia has a passing familiarity with.

Plus, the films have always screwed over Chewie. Who was the only one who didn't get a meddle in A New Hope again?

But yeah, that scene does feel out of place. I just don't think one short scene is enough to qualify for Mary Sue-dom, if the rest of the "evidence" doesn't hold up.

It might have worked better if it was Rey comforting Leia (who just lost the father of her son at the hands of her son), rather than the other way around. Though the way you describe it, it says a hell of a lot about Leia's character that, having just lost the love of her life at the hands of her son, her first impulse is to comfort a stranger.

[The Romulan Republic]

Already posted a few pages back, but yeah - it's actually poking fun at the fandom's more hacky and lame ideas a lot (dead giveaway: the "Darth Plagueis" bit, i.e. "oh ... ok that has nothing to do with anything ...").

Yeah, I never did get why that's a thing, other than the fandom's obsessive need to tie every single thing together, or a misguided desire to try to go the easy route of one-upping Palpatine with an even bigger Sith Lord.

Edit: To Galvatron's point, I'm not sure you can really hold Ackbar's off-screen death against the filmmakers, given that IIRC, Ackbar's actor passed away before filming. Their options were basically the same (on a smaller scale) as they are for Leia in Episode IX- write him out off-screen, or recast/use CGI and risk fan wrath for disrespecting the actor.

[Straha]

It might have worked better if it was Rey comforting Leia (who just lost the father of her son at the hands of her son), rather than the other way around. Though the way you describe it, it says a hell of a lot about Leia's character that, having just lost the love of her life at the hands of her son, her first impulse is to comfort a stranger.

It does. The last two films have done a lot to give Leia both depth and serious leadership skills that are believable in universe beyond "She's a princess".

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm also glad that they actually had Leia use the Force in TLJ, beyond just sensing what was going on with Luke and Han. RotJ made a big thing out of how Luke was going to train Leia as a Jedi, and I felt that TFA kind of dropped the ball on that by keeping Leia in a support/behind the lines general role, and making the focus on Leia needs to get Luke to come back to beat the First Order.

So I'm glad that TLJ actually followed up on the fact that yes, Leia is strong in the Force too.

Edit: It also doesn't hurt that, in my opinion, TLJ is probably Fisher's best performance in the role.

[The Romulan Republic]

Cool little fan video on the theme of "If Kylo Ren met Anakin's ghost." The editing's a bit choppy, but I like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAS6VIo-hH0

This is actually a meeting I'd really like to see happen in canon.

Edit: Actually, that should have been in its own thread, since its not specifically TLJ-related. Apologies for misplacing it here.

[Knife]

I'm also glad that they actually had Leia use the Force in TLJ, beyond just sensing what was going on with Luke and Han. RotJ made a big thing out of how Luke was going to train Leia as a Jedi, and I felt that TFA kind of dropped the ball on that by keeping Leia in a support/behind the lines general role, and making the focus on Leia needs to get Luke to come back to beat the First Order.

So I'm glad that TLJ actually followed up on the fact that yes, Leia is strong in the Force too.

Edit: It also doesn't hurt that, in my opinion, TLJ is probably Fisher's best performance in the role.

Wait wha? Yoda said there was another Skywalker, and he did say pass on what you've learned but not specifically about Leia, but other than that ROTJ didn't make a thing out of making Leia a Jedi. You must be pushing your own fanboy themes. Vader used it as a taunt on Luke, and it was an obvious taunt that didn't work out for him at all.

Luke did tell Leia he as his sister, and Luke did go on to pass what he had learned to others, just not Leia.

[Galvatron]

Luke told Leia in ROTJ: "In time you'll learn to use it as I have." I always thought that was a pretty clear foreshadow of her training.

On a totally unrelated note, I just stumbled across this nice little video that someone made before TLJ even hit theaters:



Also:

[Knife]

Well if I've learned next to anything in this thread, is that clear foreshadowing like that isn't rock solid what should have happened.

[Galvatron]

It's also entirely possible that Luke did train Leia. Yoda trained him in a relatively short time, so who's to say she didn't take a vacation to his academy for a crash course like he got on Dagobah? A lot could happen in 30 years.

[jollyreaper]

So your argument is that high-quality things are good, and low-quality things are bad. I don't see how any of the other things you're saying around it matter, then.

What I'm saying is that there are rules for writing and they're the rules because they generally work, like "make your protagonist sympathetic." This isn't to say you can't break the rules but it requires more skill and effort to make a compelling unsympathetic protagonist. You have to know and understand the rules before you can break them effectively.

[jollyreaper]

Luke told Leia in ROTJ: "In time you'll learn to use it as I have." I always thought that was a pretty clear foreshadow of her training.

On a totally unrelated note, I just stumbled across this nice little video that someone made before TLJ even hit theaters:

The training fan video was what we needed to see more of in this film. I do like seeing mirroring scenes and it would be interesting to see the contrast between Luke as student with Yoda and Luke as master with Rey. The brief bit we got in the actual film was one of the few bright spots.

The other video critique of the film really nails it.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm also glad that they actually had Leia use the Force in TLJ, beyond just sensing what was going on with Luke and Han. RotJ made a big thing out of how Luke was going to train Leia as a Jedi, and I felt that TFA kind of dropped the ball on that by keeping Leia in a support/behind the lines general role, and making the focus on Leia needs to get Luke to come back to beat the First Order.

So I'm glad that TLJ actually followed up on the fact that yes, Leia is strong in the Force too.

Edit: It also doesn't hurt that, in my opinion, TLJ is probably Fisher's best performance in the role.

Wait wha? Yoda said there was another Skywalker, and he did say pass on what you've learned but not specifically about Leia, but other than that ROTJ didn't make a thing out of making Leia a Jedi. You must be pushing your own fanboy themes. Vader used it as a taunt on Luke, and it was an obvious taunt that didn't work out for him at all.

I could have sworn that Luke said something during the film about Leia learning to use the Force when he talked to her.

Luke did tell Leia he as his sister, and Luke did go on to pass what he had learned to others, just not Leia.

Well, the alternative to Luke training her is that Leia taught herself to pull a Superman with the Force. Which is cool, but I know some other characters who would be branded Mary Sues for learning something like that on their own, without a teacher.