How do we know hell is hellish?

[Howedar]

Keep throwing them insults, Mike. You're just getting entertaining.

Obviously more entertaining than those direct quotes I posted earlier, which you had no answer for.

Frankly, we're both doing a fantastic imitation of Darkstar's wall. I'd just as soon not waste my time; our last disagreement ended only when one side (don't even remember who) decided it wasn't worth his time.

I feel I've explained my position, you obviously do not. I'm willing to agree to disagree.

[Darth Wong]

Keep throwing them insults, Mike. You're just getting entertaining.

Obviously more entertaining than those direct quotes I posted earlier, which you had no answer for.

Frankly, we're both doing a fantastic imitation of Darkstar's wall. I'd just as soon not waste my time; our last disagreement ended only when one side (don't even remember who) decided it wasn't worth his time.

Ah, Golden Mean fallacy: we must both be equally unreasonable because we can't come to an agreement. Good one

I feel I've explained my position, you obviously do not. I'm willing to agree to disagree.

You claimed that a post which explicitly asked for alternate interpretations was actually asking us to stick strictly to the conventional interpretation. There is nothing ambiguous about this; it's obviously wrong. The only problem is that you won't admit it.

[Rye]

Well here's how i understand all this:

If we suspend disbelief for a second and treat canon prophecies in the bible as real, well then...you get the idea...

ok, as i understand it, hell is a lake of fire, where allsouls that are too bad go after judgment day, to die the second death.

The brimstone and such was put in by danté's inferno i believe, which got a few hell myths and put them together, so i am told, which included stuff from the greek myths and christian ideas of the time.

[Darth Wong]

Well here's how i understand all this:

If we suspend disbelief for a second and treat canon prophecies in the bible as real, well then...you get the idea...

Actually, the Bible does not really describe Hell. It mentions death, and equates death to Hell. It also mentions the lake of fire, but does not explicitly state that all of Hell is this lake of fire. A perfectly legitimate alternate explanation is that Hell is simply the state of death on Earth, away from Heaven. Lakes of fire are not unheard-of on Earth (see nearest volcano), nor are all other manners of unpleasantry. Remember that Satan, who has been cast out and condemned to Hell, seems free to wander the Earth, as are all of his minions.

ok, as i understand it, hell is a lake of fire, where allsouls that are too bad go after judgment day, to die the second death.

Where in the Bible does it say that Hell is a spiritual realm composed of fire, as opposed to a state of death on Earth?

The brimstone and such was put in by danté's inferno i believe, which got a few hell myths and put them together, so i am told, which included stuff from the greek myths and christian ideas of the time.

The word "Hell" derives from the greek "Hades", which was part of their religion and which was NOT uniformly bad (although you'd better not mention that to Howedar; he seems convinced that no religion but Christianity has Heaven or Hell or angels or the latter being cast out).

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Actually, according to the Bible (from what I remember) the conventional definition of JC Hell (fire and brimstone, whaling and gnashing of tomcats, etc.) doesn't even exist yet, and won't until the events depicted in the book of Revelation. So technically, even Christians who think about it (hahahaha, yeah right) would understand that Hell does not exist.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

The word "Hell" derives from the greek "Hades", which was part of their religion and which was NOT uniformly bad (although you'd better not mention that to Howedar; he seems convinced that no religion but Christianity has Heaven or Hell or angels or the latter being cast out).

"Hell" may also be etymologically linked to "Hel" which is nearly identical, conceptually, to Hades.

Interestingly enough, Satan is conceptually similar to Loki, who was banished to Hel and there chained to a rock under the dripping venom of a serpent <--similar again to Prometheus, who was similarly sentenced for providing humans with the knowledge of fire.

How many sources did Christianity plagiarize, anyway?!

[Howedar]

Ah, Golden Mean fallacy: we must both be equally unreasonable because we can't come to an agreement. Good one [/wuote]I didn't say that either of us was being unreasonable. I just said that neither of us was likely to change our position. Perhaps I should have made that qualification when mentioning our good buddy.

I feel I've explained my position, you obviously do not. I'm willing to agree to disagree.

You claimed that a post which explicitly asked for alternate interpretations was actually asking us to stick strictly to the conventional interpretation. There is nothing ambiguous about this; it's obviously wrong. The only problem is that you won't admit it.

The post explicity asked how we know hell is hellish. You may interpret that as you will.

[Darth Wong]

Refusing to let go, eh?

The post explicity asked how we know hell is hellish. You may interpret that as you will.

Actually, for the second time, the post was:

My question is this, if Hell realy is run by a lot of cast out angels wouldn't they try to make it like another heaven? I mean wouldn't that be the only way you could get a good satanic following?

Nope, it doesn't ask how we know hell is hellish. It asks if they would try to make it a pleasant place in order to attract recruits.

[Durandal]

Actually, according to the Bible (from what I remember) the conventional definition of JC Hell (fire and brimstone, whaling and gnashing of tomcats, etc.) doesn't even exist yet, and won't until the events depicted in the book of Revelation. So technically, even Christians who think about it (hahahaha, yeah right) would understand that Hell does not exist.

Hell is never explicitly mentioned in the Bible; that is why Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in it. They believe that all those who don't go to Heaven simply die and never get resurrected. Those who are good little Christians get resurrected and go to Heaven, but there is no eternal torture going on for those who chose not to kiss God's ass.

Hell is derived from Jesus' description of a gehenna, which was a place where the Jews would dump their garbage back in his day. He said that the souls which weren't saved would be sent to a place like a gehenna, if I remember correctly. This implies that unsaved souls will be cast onto a garbage pile of sorts, but nothing of eternal torment is ever mentioned. Hell was obviously made up to scare people into obeying priests and bishops without question.

How many sources did Christianity plagiarize, anyway?!

Christianity is the whore of all religions. It's got a little bit of every religion in it, and it was paid with converts. Jesus' story was largely ripped off of Mithraism; Mithra had twelve followers, died on a cross to save humanity and was the son of the sun god. Mithraism and Christianity were in heated competition back in the Roman Empire for the dominant religion. Mithraism was preferred among the soldiers, and Christianity among the common people. Christianity finally won out by adopting Mithraism's practices and selling itself to the soldiers as virtually identical to Mithraism.

They also assimilated many practices from pagan religions so that people wouldn't have to change their holiday calendars to convert to Christianity. The Winter Solstice was renamed to Christmas, which was originally Mithra's birthday. The Spring Solstice/fertility festival became Easter, and the traditional representation of Spring and fertility, the rabbit, because the Easter Bunny.

For its willingess to go to any lengths to gain converts, Christianity now enjoys status as the world's most popular religion (though Islam is gaining, I think). What is Christianity today would probably be radically different from what Jesus, had he existed, would have imagined or wanted it to be.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Keep throwing them insults, Mike. You're just getting entertaining.

Pot.

Kettle.

Black.

[Darth Wong]

Hell is never explicitly mentioned in the Bible; that is why Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in it. They believe that all those who don't go to Heaven simply die and never get resurrected. Those who are good little Christians get resurrected and go to Heaven, but there is no eternal torture going on for those who chose not to kiss God's ass.

Mind you, the Bible does mention the lake of fire, but it does not explicitly state that Hell is this lake of fire. It is left to the reader to conclude that God simply hates certain people and will torture/kill them. Jesus also makes a lot of vage allusions to unrighteous people being tortured in the "kingdom of God".

Christianity is the whore of all religions. It's got a little bit of every religion in it, and it was paid with converts. Jesus' story was largely ripped off of Mithraism; Mithra had twelve followers, died on a cross to save humanity and was the son of the sun god. Mithraism and Christianity were in heated competition back in the Roman Empire for the dominant religion. Mithraism was preferred among the soldiers, and Christianity among the common people. Christianity finally won out by adopting Mithraism's practices and selling itself to the soldiers as virtually identical to Mithraism.

They also assimilated many practices from pagan religions so that people wouldn't have to change their holiday calendars to convert to Christianity. The Winter Solstice was renamed to Christmas, which was originally Mithra's birthday. The Spring Solstice/fertility festival became Easter, and the traditional representation of Spring and fertility, the rabbit, because the Easter Bunny.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: long before Microsoft came around, Christianity invented the "embrace and extend" approach. The funny thing is how many Christians think their religion is unique.

[Howedar]

Refusing to let go, eh?

I've tried, several times.

Illuminatus Primus:
Pot.

Kettle.

Black.

Certainly.

[Darth Wong]

It's amazing how many posts Howedar can make without actually bringing up any real points relevant to the subject. Every one of his last half-dozen posts is just composed of hissy fits and one-liners. Even when the thread moves on to discuss the Biblical description of Hell in more detail, he still clings to his belief that it's actually about him and his wounded ego.

[SirNitram]

So what we do know about Hell is:

1. It's bad(Compared to Heaven, at least. From the point of view of the Righteous. Or so they tell us. But 9AM in the morning is bad to me, and I'm not even that righteous).
2. There may/may not be a lake of fire involved. Burning souls are an optional extra.
3. Satan hangs out there with his friends. Probably smoking pot, for all the activity he's had.

Of course..

1. Satan's not really that bad. We can even go so far as to say he gave us Free Will, since it is by his act we can understand good and evil, and therefore choose our paths.
2. We have pits of fire. I've not seen any burning souls, though. They probably cost more.
3. Like I said. Anywhere before 9AM is bad.


EDIT: LadyTevar wishes it to be known only most places are bad at 9AM. Wild passionate sex at 9AM is perfectly acceptable.

[CelestialWisdom]

I think the idea on why hell is bad is cause satan is just so pissed that he got kicked out of eternal bliss (heaven) that he takes it out on us.

And yes, theres a lake of fire, least children of the corn (dunno which #) said that one of the adults tried to do something based on a phrase of the bible saying something about a lake of fire.

Q. Ok, so God is eternally good and omni-present, but since hes Omni-present, doesn't that mean that God is in hell; and thus a sinner and eternally bad?

Q#2. How come the Angel of Light is also the Prince of Darkness (Lucifer, btw, is the Angel of light)

[Howedar]

It's amazing how many posts Howedar can make without actually bringing up any real points relevant to the subject. Every one of his last half-dozen posts is just composed of hissy fits and one-liners. Even when the thread moves on to discuss the Biblical description of Hell in more detail, he still clings to his belief that it's actually about him and his wounded ego.

If thats what you choose to believe, thats your perogative.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It's amazing how many posts Howedar can make without actually bringing up any real points relevant to the subject. Every one of his last half-dozen posts is just composed of hissy fits and one-liners. Even when the thread moves on to discuss the Biblical description of Hell in more detail, he still clings to his belief that it's actually about him and his wounded ego.

If thats what you choose to believe, thats your perogative.

An important part of believing you're right, if you do, is not making the last quip.

Let go.

[Captain Underling]

Actually, God gave man free will. And the bible was written by men inspired by god, so is full of little (or big) mistakes. (According to the Vatican.)

In my opinion, the reason God allows the devil to walk among us is that without an ultimate evil, how do we know good? (Assuming the devil is bad of course.) I think you people are forgetting that the devil was originally created as a focus point of evil. People don't like to take responsibility. "I'm not at fault. It's the devil/insert your own ultimite evil being here who made the world such a bad place." Its easier to blame the devil (or even God) then accept you let people do these things. One example: those who blame god when accidents happen, instead of accepting that if people didn't drink and drive, less people would be killed.

[Darth Wong]

Actually, God gave man free will. And the bible was written by men inspired by god, so is full of little (or big) mistakes. (According to the Vatican.)

I always thought it was written by men inspired by institutional greed, but I digress

In my opinion, the reason God allows the devil to walk among us is that without an ultimate evil, how do we know good? (Assuming the devil is bad of course.)

Nevertheless, there is precious little basis for the Christian dogma that Hell is a special place of torture.

I think you people are forgetting that the devil was originally created as a focus point of evil. People don't like to take responsibility. "I'm not at fault. It's the devil/insert your own ultimite evil being here who made the world such a bad place." Its easier to blame the devil (or even God) then accept you let people do these things. One example: those who blame god when accidents happen, instead of accepting that if people didn't drink and drive, less people would be killed.

Agreed, but how does that change the fact that Christian dogma regarding Hell has little basis in the source material? It's well-described in the Bible that people who offend God are made to suffer, but the "who, how, where" of this suffering is not clear.

[RogueIce]

Newbie!

*poke*

[SirNitram]

Actually, God gave man free will. And the bible was written by men inspired by god, so is full of little (or big) mistakes. (According to the Vatican.)

But according to the book, the knowledge of good and evil is graned by Lucifers 'trick'.

[Durandal]

Actually, God gave man free will. And the bible was written by men inspired by god, so is full of little (or big) mistakes. (According to the Vatican.)

However, he didn't give us sufficient knowledge to act with that free will, and when we acted out of ignorance (eating the fruit), he got all pissy about it.

If Adam and Eve didn't know what was good and what was evil, and we define God's commands as good and disobeying them as evil, how could they know they were committing an evil act? They were created amoral.

In my opinion, the reason God allows the devil to walk among us is that without an ultimate evil, how do we know good? (Assuming the devil is bad of course.)

Simple, if it brings us happiness, it is good. If it brings us suffering, it is bad. If nothing brings us suffering, then everything is good, and we can all just have sex.

I think you people are forgetting that the devil was originally created as a focus point of evil. People don't like to take responsibility. "I'm not at fault. It's the devil/insert your own ultimite evil being here who made the world such a bad place." Its easier to blame the devil (or even God) then accept you let people do these things. One example: those who blame god when accidents happen, instead of accepting that if people didn't drink and drive, less people would be killed.

It's perfectly legitimate to blame God for anything and everything. He has the power to do whatever he wishes. He could have stopped September 11th, for example. Instead, he sat by and let it happen. He could have prevented human suffering, but he didn't. Would you hold someone accountable if he knew that the attacks were going to occur but did nothing about it and told no one? Of course you would! So why is God held to a different standard? Either he's has the ability to stop evil and doesn't, making him an asshole, or he can't stop evil, which doesn't exactly make him godly.

[Kuroneko]

It's perfectly legitimate to blame God for anything and everything. He has the power to do whatever he wishes...

Do you think there is a "best possible" state of affairs? Or do you think that for any given condition the world is in, there is always room for improvement?

[Lord Pounder]

The thing is that it's safe to assume that Satan/Lucifer will be incharge of Hell. If this is the case then he or she (personaly i think it's a she) is gonna want to reward you. If your in hell you done her some good. At worst i see it being like high school where you have to suffer the occasional wedgie from the bigger students. But it'll be one big headonistic party.

[Durandal]

It's perfectly legitimate to blame God for anything and everything. He has the power to do whatever he wishes...

Do you think there is a "best possible" state of affairs? Or do you think that for any given condition the world is in, there is always room for improvement?

I'd assume that that would be Heaven. I'm really to cynical to dream up a perfect world, but I think it'd involve lots of fucking.