Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[GuppyShark]

Has someone (with credibility) written about how RJ setup the audience to buy into Poe's mutiny as has often been raised? I did try googling and it is a shitfest of opinion bloggers.
EDIT: I am hoping it went beyond 'lets make the fake antagonist an older woman with purple hair'

[Batman]

Except this wasn't HER crew. It was the crew of the Raddus, who just had a large part of their parasite craft and crew eradicated thanks to a combination of Poe being an arrogant shithead and Wars capital ship shields apparently being useless against small craft. So she tells them...'Let's hope for the best. I'm sure everything will turn out well' instead of 'We have a plan. I can't tell you the details but we know what we're doing.'
The Doctor's 'we have a plan. It's a terrible plan and it probably won't work' was a better motivational speech than that

[The Romulan Republic]

Since we're on the topic of Admiral Holdo:

Apparently the new Leia novel implies that Holdo is bisexual (or so some say).

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-hold ... character/

The passage in question:

"A pair of pretty dark eyes." Then Amilyn thought about that for a moment. "or more than a pair, if you're into Grans. Or Aqualish, or Tals. Or even-"

"That's all right! Leia said through laughter. "It's just humanoid males for me."

"Really? That feels so limiting."

"Thank goodness its a big galaxy."

My thoughts:

1. Those Alt. Reich tears of rage are delicious.

2. That said, this is a really tenuous argument. From the context, it sounds like Holdo is talking more about dating non-humanoids.

3. If they intended Holdo to be gay, that really should have just been fucking stated in the film. We are past the point where we have to be coy about this to avoid offending Bible-belters.

4. Lots of fuel for Holdo/Leia shipping, even though the same passage has Leia officially confirm her heterosexuality. Not sure I like the "shippy fanfic" vibe the franchise appears to be catering to these days. We really don't need to draw in more of the shipping fic crowd to make this fandom even more toxic.

5. Leia says she is interested in "humanoid males" (suggesting she's be open to dating non-human humanoids), while Holdo finds that "limiting" (possibly suggesting her willingness to date non-humanoids).

6. Holdo's first name is Amilyn? Huh. Sounds like the title of the Aes Sedai's leader in the Wheel of Time series.

[ray245]

Yes, ray, we get that you want Star Wars to stay in a very narrow and familiar box.

I'm fine with them doing things differently in the spin-off movies. I'm just doubting whether they could make a decent main trilogy movie featuring a grunt as a main character.

Anyway, I do not see why it is so hard to have an ordinary grunt in a meaningful role. They don't have to be the star to still have a significant impact on the story- indeed supporting characters are often the most memorable, perhaps because protagonists tend to fit a familiar mold.

How meaningful of a role can they get? I mean C3PO has a meaningful role to play in the movies, but he is hardly someone that is a "main character" that got any real character development.

And, hell, Rogue One managed to convey the idea (to me at least) that the ordinary rank and file mattered in a single scene, and it was the best damn scene of the movie.

And I love Rogue One for doing that. Story from the POV of grunts works wonderfully in a stand-alone movie.

This idea that you need a carefully plotted trilogy to focus on more than one character is absurd. Only if you're utterly incompetent at pacing (which Peter Jackson is).

You need to carefully plan it out because otherwise your movie will become too bloated or have characters be underdeveloped.

Or you can have an ordinary grunt rising into the role of hero- heroes have to start somewhere, and you can tell such a story in such a way as to emphasize that any of those ordinary soldiers could also have become great heroes, if put in the right circumstances.

By that point they are no longer a grunt. I mean Luke was nothing more than a farmboy in ANH and a mere "pilot". By the end of the movie he is a hero of the rebellion and a Commander.

In any case, I personally don't feel that Rose distracted from the "main" plot in TLJ. The Rose/Finn story does not directly lead to the First Order's defeat and the survival of the Resistance. But it gives the film more variety of tone, ties into the themes of the film, and emphasizes what it is that the Resistance is fighting for. Its a worthwhile audition on that basis, and I do not begrudge the relatively limited screen time it took up.

I think it weakened the overall pacing of the movie. The storyline didn't converge as well, which makes many people ( including many who like TLJ) finding it annoying. Whether it has an important message to tell doesn't matter if the overall pacing of the movie is affected.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm fine with them doing things differently in the spin-off movies. I'm just doubting whether they could make a decent main trilogy movie featuring a grunt as a main character.

Fair enough, but I think a competent writer/director team can pull it off, if they try.

Sadly, very few people in Hollywood seem to give a damn about plot construction and pacing these days.

How meaningful of a role can they get? I mean C3PO has a meaningful role to play in the movies, but he is hardly someone that is a "main character" that got any real character development.

See my comments on why I liked Rose in TLJ. Sure, she's involved in the big events, but she never really stops being anything other than a rank-and-file Resistance soldier who happened to be in the right (or wrong) place and had the guts to keep fighting for what she believed in. She has no grand titles, not great fame, no special powers. Just courage and a cause she believes in.

And I love Rogue One for doing that. Story from the POV of grunts works wonderfully in a stand-alone movie.

Fair enough. And FYI, I consider that Rogue One scene the single greatest moment in Star Wars since the OT ended, though Luke's Last Stand comes close for me, maybe.

You need to carefully plan it out because otherwise your movie will become too bloated or have characters be underdeveloped.

Well, no argument there.

By that point they are no longer a grunt. I mean Luke was nothing more than a farmboy in ANH and a mere "pilot". By the end of the movie he is a hero of the rebellion and a Commander.

Yeah, but Luke always had the special powers, and the legendary family history. He was a Jedi's apprentice before he ever joined the Alliance. I don't know that he'd qualify, even in ANH.

Yes, eventually that sort of character may rise above their origins. Although, see Rose. I mean, for all I know she'll be General Rose in the next film, but for now, she's still basically an ordinary rebel soldier.

I think it weakened the overall pacing of the movie. The storyline didn't converge as well, which makes many people ( including many who like TLJ) finding it annoying. Whether it has an important message to tell doesn't matter if the overall pacing of the movie is affected.

Well, speaking only for myself, I think my main pacing issue was with the cutting between Rey and the fleet, in hindsight.

And the multiple bait-and-switches regarding weather Luke and Rose would survive at the end. That went on too long, and irritated me.

[CaoCao]

Oh, fuck, we go back to this Holdo idiocy. Guess nothing short of a puppet show will make simple things obvious.

- We know people had been trying to use the scape pods since the beginning. Rose tells us that.
- Poe asks several times about the plan (he's the second in command, even after demotion, and the wing commander) and gets no convincing answer.
- We see the Resistance being reduced to a single cap ship.
- We know (and they do too) they 're running out of fuel.
- After around 18 hours of attrition, morale is at the lowest, and still Pinky never gives a fucking answer. Even when Poe mutinies.
- But, after doing nothing all along, she is prepping unshielded shuttles. Great.

What was Poe supposed to do? Let a probable traitor be take the Resistance to its doom? Lucky for your respective countries you are not in a position to command the armies, you'd crash the merry-go-round.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, fuck, we go back to this Holdo idiocy. Guess nothing short of a puppet show will make simple things obvious.

So much for a civil discussion, I guess. Because obviously your personal opinions are so self-evidently correct that anyone who disagrees with you must be an idiot, right?

- We know people had been trying to use the scape pods since the beginning. Rose tells us that.

Yes.

It does not follow that because some people tried to flee a bad situation, Holdo is a bad commander. Every military in history has had deserters, often in much less dire situations, and under very capable commanders.

- Poe asks several times about the plan (he's the second in command, even after demotion, and the wing commander) and gets no convincing answer.

He just got a bunch of people killed and himself demoted for incompetence and insubordination. Then followed it up by openly questioning her leadership on her bridge in a crisis. She had no reason to tell him anything.

No doubt if Holdo had told him, people would blame her for doing that (and with much greater cause).

Also, source for Poe being second in command at that point.

- We see the Resistance being reduced to a single cap ship.
- We know (and they do too) they 're running out of fuel.

Yes. And we know why they couldn't attack (because they were hopelessly outgunned), and why they couldn't retreat (because they'd be tracked). So Holdo's plan was to hold out until they could get close to the planet, then slip away aboard stealthed ships. Which would have fucking worked like a charm if not for turncoat slicer, who only knew about it because of Poe's rogue plan.

- After around 18 hours of attrition, morale is at the lowest, and still Pinky never gives a fucking answer. Even when Poe mutinies.

You know damn well that "Pinky" and other similar appearance-based insults are an attempt to invoke gender cliches and appearance as a way of saying that a female authority figure is unfit for her position.

This isn't even subtle- it is overt misogyny.

And yeah, she should totally give an explanation of her plans to a man who just lead a mutiny. Are you even fucking listening to yourself?

- But, after doing nothing all along, she is prepping unshielded shuttles. Great.

Because that's all she fucking had to work with. And the shuttles would have slipped away undetected if not for a turncoat outside the Resistance chain of command, who only knew about the shuttle because of Poe's dumbfuck plan.

But why let a little thing like evidence get in the way of your sexism and character-bashing?

What was Poe supposed to do? Let a probable traitor be take the Resistance to its doom? Lucky for your respective countries you are not in a position to command the armies, you'd crash the merry-go-round.

In no reasonable person's mind was Holdo "a probable traitor". But good for you for letting the entire point of the subplot fly over your miniscule head.

[Rogue 9]

I do not for the life of me understand why fans would condemn Holdo for not telling Poe every detail of her battle plan (well, other than mindless bashing of every aspect of the film, or blatant sexism).

Poe is a squadron commander. He has no right to demand the details of an Admiral's battle plans. He may have been Leia's favorite, but he had also just been demoted by Leia herself (who Holdo clearly has a great deal of respect and affection for) for insubordination and incompetence that got their entire bomber force and a significant portion of their fighters wiped out. Holdo doesn't know Poe. The very first thing he does is start insubordinately challenging her authority and questioning her orders on the bridge in front of her crew.

Even leaving the possibility of spies aside, why in God's name would she tell him anything he doesn't absolutely need to know? If she made a mistake, it was not throwing his ass in the brig right then.

As the video points out, she didn't just not tell Poe; she didn't tell anyone. Senior command staff participated in the mutiny. Poe wasn't special; she literally let the entire ship believe there was no way out and she wasn't even trying to create one.

[CetaMan]

She obviously told some staff to fill the transports, but failing to tell the command staff (probably because they weren't her command staff) was asking for trouble in a resistance group, where trust forms a large basis of ability especially after the loss of literally the rest of the command structure.

[FaxModem1]

How about that there actually IS a plan?

Um... considering that Holdo is supposedly a highly-respected admiral and war hero, you'd think her crew would have a little more confidence that she has something up her sleeve when she says "Hey guys, don't give up yet."

Maybe she was out of touch with how demoralized her people were. Given that she wasn't in TFA, she might have only just arrived at the base as it was being evacuated, and not have been up to speed. That's not really her fault, though.

When people are deserting enough that Rose is stationed at the escape pods to prevent it, you have a morale problem that needs better attention than, 'Im in charge now, have hope'. And keeping her bridge crew thinking that they need to mutiny against her to survive proves that she wasn't delivering on leadership. Something utterly necessary in a voluntary militia like the Resistance.

[Gandalf]

Wait, Rose was stationed near the escape pods to stop deserters?

[Galvatron]

Yep.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rose_Tico

[ray245]

Fair enough, but I think a competent writer/director team can pull it off, if they try.

Sadly, very few people in Hollywood seem to give a damn about plot construction and pacing these days.

There are very few directors who can pull this off, which is why I am skeptical about people throwing arguments that you can do this as if this is the norm for Hollywood.

See my comments on why I liked Rose in TLJ. Sure, she's involved in the big events, but she never really stops being anything other than a rank-and-file Resistance soldier who happened to be in the right (or wrong) place and had the guts to keep fighting for what she believed in. She has no grand titles, not great fame, no special powers. Just courage and a cause she believes in.

The downside is she has very little room for her to go as a character. Where can she go as a character in the next few films? Is she going to stay as a grunt?

Yeah, but Luke always had the special powers, and the legendary family history. He was a Jedi's apprentice before he ever joined the Alliance. I don't know that he'd qualify, even in ANH.

Yes, eventually that sort of character may rise above their origins. Although, see Rose. I mean, for all I know she'll be General Rose in the next film, but for now, she's still basically an ordinary rebel soldier.

See above. If someone gets promoted to a high-ranking general, then they are no longer a rank and file soldier.

Well, speaking only for myself, I think my main pacing issue was with the cutting between Rey and the fleet, in hindsight.

And the multiple bait-and-switches regarding weather Luke and Rose would survive at the end. That went on too long, and irritated me.

I'm looking at people like the Nostalgia Critic, who liked TLJ but find the Rose and Finn sub-plot to be distracting. That seems to be a comment by many others who liked TLJ.

There are many people, including critics that liked TLJ that said TLJ has some pacing issues. So I'm not sure making more SW movies with different perspectives that include the rank and file is a good idea.

[Galvatron]

I still want to know how Finn and Rose survived the final battle. The AT-ATs on Hoth showed no mercy against the fleeing rebel foot soldiers.

[FaxModem1]

Wait, Rose was stationed near the escape pods to stop deserters?

Yeah, she mentioned to Finn that before he got there, she had zapped three(or was it five?) people who had all individually been making a run for it.

[Civil War Man]

It does not follow that because some people tried to flee a bad situation, Holdo is a bad commander. Every military in history has had deserters, often in much less dire situations, and under very capable commanders.

When you have a large number of desertions in a short amount of time (somewhere around half a dozen in the span of at most a few hours, and that's just counting the ones who tried to use that one escape pod), then as a commander you need to do something to get the troops back in line, or you are either going to watch the entire command structure implode or find yourself staring down the business end of a mutiny.

Sometimes that something involves punishing insubordination, sometimes it involves doing something to inspire them, and sometimes just giving them something to keep them busy is enough. Keeping the crew active can go a long way in maintaining their trust. Giving them nothing to do in that situation just reinforces the perception that you have no plan. The fact that Finn, Poe, Rose, and the other crew members who joined the mutiny were apparently just left to their own devices, to the point where they could cook up a plan with zero interference and Finn and Rose could just leave without anyone ever noticing they were gone, was asking for trouble.

Wait, Rose was stationed near the escape pods to stop deserters?

I don't know if she was specifically ordered to stay there and intercept deserters. I kind of got the impression that she just took it upon herself, and nobody tried to stop her. Under normal circumstances, the security staff would probably thank her for her initiative, then post some guards at the escape pods so she can go back to doing her actual job. That this did not happen gave me the impression that security was already stretched close to the breaking point, so they couldn't spare anyone, and/or everyone was so demoralized that few people were even bothering trying to hand out orders anymore.

[CaoCao]

Oh, fuck, we go back to this Holdo idiocy. Guess nothing short of a puppet show will make simple things obvious.

So much for a civil discussion, I guess. Because obviously your personal opinions are so self-evidently correct that anyone who disagrees with you must be an idiot, right?

You're the last person that could say that.

- We know people had been trying to use the scape pods since the beginning. Rose tells us that.

Yes.

It does not follow that because some people tried to flee a bad situation, Holdo is a bad commander. Every military in history has had deserters, often in much less dire situations, and under very capable commanders.

No, Holdo hadn't been in command too long when that happened. It's a clear a sign that there is a problem to be addressed. They are all volunteers that, up to that point, had been on unsanctioned activity (by their government, the New Republic), not drafted civilians or half hearted career military.

It shows that the FO managed to scare them, and they needed some form of reassurance.

- Poe asks several times about the plan (he's the second in command, even after demotion, and the wing commander) and gets no convincing answer.

He just got a bunch of people killed and himself demoted for incompetence and insubordination. Then followed it up by openly questioning her leadership on her bridge in a crisis. She had no reason to tell him anything.

He got the dreadnought and was demoted for insubordination, not incompetence. He asked for a plan more than once. And yes, she had every reason to tell him.

No doubt if Holdo had told him, people would blame her for doing that (and with much greater cause).

Also, source for Poe being second in command at that point.

You mean the others that mutinied with him? Because even the bridge crew was in on the mutiny.

Poe is still the wing commander (even when there's no longer a fighter wing), he is ex-New Republic officer and he is chosen by Leia as his successor. But if you want to nitpick, there is no scene where they straight tell the hierarchy.

- We see the Resistance being reduced to a single cap ship.
- We know (and they do too) they 're running out of fuel.

Yes. And we know why they couldn't attack (because they were hopelessly outgunned), and why they couldn't retreat (because they'd be tracked). So Holdo's plan was to hold out until they could get close to the planet, then slip away aboard stealthed ships. Which would have fucking worked like a charm if not for turncoat slicer, who only knew about it because of Poe's rogue plan.

You're using hindsight here. The rest of the crew didn't know there was a plan, the "stealth" ships (they are actually not stealth, only some technobabble about engine baffling or something) nor a nearby planet. If you want to use Holdo's plan, then you need her to, at least, tell her crew there is one. Which she didn't.

- After around 18 hours of attrition, morale is at the lowest, and still Pinky never gives a fucking answer. Even when Poe mutinies.

You know damn well that "Pinky" and other similar appearance-based insults are an attempt to invoke gender cliches and appearance as a way of saying that a female authority figure is unfit for her position.

This isn't even subtle- it is overt misogyny.

And yeah, she should totally give an explanation of her plans to a man who just lead a mutiny. Are you even fucking listening to yourself?

So much for keeping it civil. No, it's not a fucking gender cliche, were she a man, I would also call him Pinky. Hell, I even recall Yoda being call Greenie. Her unfitness to her position is not based on gender. Hux is unfit for his position as well, even moreso than Holdo.

Back on the discussion, it's not just Poe that mutinies, only her assistant is on her side. She never tries to talk it out, just shuts her mouth and lets everything play out.

- But, after doing nothing all along, she is prepping unshielded shuttles. Great.

Because that's all she fucking had to work with. And the shuttles would have slipped away undetected if not for a turncoat outside the Resistance chain of command, who only knew about the shuttle because of Poe's dumbfuck plan.

But why let a little thing like evidence get in the way of your sexism and character-bashing?

DJ knew about the plan because she never tried to get anyone to trust her in the first place. If she said there was a plan, then the communication where DJ overhears the shuttle business would not have happened. For Poe and the rest of the crew, she was leading them to the slaughter (and there was ample evidence of that).

So much for keeping it civil part 2.

What was Poe supposed to do? Let a probable traitor be take the Resistance to its doom? Lucky for your respective countries you are not in a position to command the armies, you'd crash the merry-go-round.

In no reasonable person's mind was Holdo "a probable traitor". But good for you for letting the entire point of the subplot fly over your miniscule head.

So much for keeping it civil part 3.

The entire point of the subplot was for the audience to believe she was a traitor that hated Poe, so it could be subverted to show she was one of the good guys and actually liked him. And be a device for Poe's character growth, by learning to stick to the hierarchy (which I'm not really sure is that good of a message, but oh well).

[tezunegari]

How respected was Holdo to begin with in her command?

The bomber wing came from her command, yet within hours or days Poe had enough clout with them that they ignored a direct order from Princess Leia.

Is it even possible that she had the crew of the Ninka prepare the transports and only shared the plan with them?

[The Romulan Republic]

I do not for the life of me understand why fans would condemn Holdo for not telling Poe every detail of her battle plan (well, other than mindless bashing of every aspect of the film, or blatant sexism).

Poe is a squadron commander. He has no right to demand the details of an Admiral's battle plans. He may have been Leia's favorite, but he had also just been demoted by Leia herself (who Holdo clearly has a great deal of respect and affection for) for insubordination and incompetence that got their entire bomber force and a significant portion of their fighters wiped out. Holdo doesn't know Poe. The very first thing he does is start insubordinately challenging her authority and questioning her orders on the bridge in front of her crew.

Even leaving the possibility of spies aside, why in God's name would she tell him anything he doesn't absolutely need to know? If she made a mistake, it was not throwing his ass in the brig right then.

As the video points out, she didn't just not tell Poe; she didn't tell anyone. Senior command staff participated in the mutiny. Poe wasn't special; she literally let the entire ship believe there was no way out and she wasn't even trying to create one.

Do we actually see any of her interactions with other officers? Not really. Its also telling, I think, that while most of the crew don't appear to openly take Holdo's side, its also only a few who are shown actively working with Poe in the mutiny. If the entire crew had thought Poe right, Holdo could never have retaken the ship. And, again, when anyone on board could have been a spy...

Plus, you know, Poe was actually aware of the transports being loaded when he launched the mutiny, as were his collaborators. IIRC it was why he launched the mutiny. So not only did telling Poe something not help Holdo, it made things worse.

Also... she's a supposedly famous and well-respected admiral, she's clearly not giving up, so why would her entire crew assume that she has no plan and is actually just waiting to die, just because she does not divulge said plan to them? No, the issue is not that there was no plan. Its that Poe didn't personally agree with her plan. Which is in no way his call to make.

She obviously told some staff to fill the transports, but failing to tell the command staff (probably because they weren't her command staff) was asking for trouble in a resistance group, where trust forms a large basis of ability especially after the loss of literally the rest of the command structure.

I am skeptical that she could have begun fueling and loading all those transports without the command staff being aware of it. To my knowledge, we never actually see on-screen confirmation that she never told any other members of the command staff (if this is incorrect, source/quote please). Also, remember that Poe was also aware of the transports being loaded when he launched his mutiny. It wasn't that they thought that there was no plan- they just didn't agree with the plan. Which, unless the plan is illegal or involves war crimes, isn't really their call to make as Holdo's subordinates.

When people are deserting enough that Rose is stationed at the escape pods to prevent it, you have a morale problem that needs better attention than, 'Im in charge now, have hope'. And keeping her bridge crew thinking that they need to mutiny against her to survive proves that she wasn't delivering on leadership. Something utterly necessary in a voluntary militia like the Resistance.[/quote]

Again, every military in history has had desertions, often in much less dire straights. A handful of people out of a fleet of hundreds doesn't immediately scream to me "mutiny imminent".

I'll also note, again, that it was a fairly small number who appeared to actively mutiny, and I doubt they would have done so without Poe's instigation. So I reiterate: If Holdo made one major error, it was not tossing Poe in the brig sooner.

In addition, all of the film takes place over the course of a single battle, during which Holdo was trying to take command of fleet that had just lost most of its command staff, and organize an evacuation. Maybe she was, you know, busy with keeping the fleet alive?

When you have a large number of desertions in a short amount of time (somewhere around half a dozen in the span of at most a few hours, and that's just counting the ones who tried to use that one escape pod), then as a commander you need to do something to get the troops back in line, or you are either going to watch the entire command structure implode or find yourself staring down the business end of a mutiny.

Perhaps, but see above.

Look at it from Holdo's point of view: she is trying to take command of a decapitated leadership, fight a battle in which she is grossly-outgunned, and organize a retreat at the same time. That would tax the abilities of any commander in history. So I'm not going to say she's incompetent, or even more ludicrously, a probable traitor, because she didn't find the time to reassure a few malcontents.

Sometimes that something involves punishing insubordination,

I reiterate: If she made one big mistake, it was not chucking Poe in the brig sooner.

sometimes it involves doing something to inspire them,

Which she attempted to do with her speech.

But apparently it doesn't count because she didn't take the time to reassure every individual officer, even if guilty of insubordination, in the middle of a crucial battle. Or because she didn't divulge details of her battle plans to the entire crew when she had every reason to suspect a highly-placed spy on board.

It does remind me of the Rey situation, again: much as even abilities that would normally be taken for granted suddenly require an elaborate explanation when Rey possesses them, the idea that soldiers should obey an experienced and respected commander suddenly requires elaborate justification when its Holdo.

I'm not saying its all gender bias in all cases, though I do think that's part of it, for some people. But I think that too many people jump on the band wagon, probably because the argument dovetails with their personal dislike of the character/film, so they don't bother to engage their critical thinking much.

and sometimes just giving them something to keep them busy is enough. Keeping the crew active can go a long way in maintaining their trust. Giving them nothing to do in that situation just reinforces the perception that you have no plan. The fact that Finn, Poe, Rose, and the other crew members who joined the mutiny were apparently just left to their own devices, to the point where they could cook up a plan with zero interference and Finn and Rose could just leave without anyone ever noticing they were gone, was asking for trouble.

I'd have thought that most of the crew would have been busy carrying out the evacuations (or else manning their usual stations). We certainly see nothing to contradict that assumption on-screen, to the best of my recollection. Rose was doing something productive (weather with orders or on her own initiative), and Finn had just awoken from a coma and had no formal Resistance rank or duties.

Poe was inactive because he had been previously relieved of duty, and then his squadron blown-up. And again, Holdo owes Poe nothing.

Moreover, I repeat, there is no indication that the mutiny was a popular uprising. It was a botched coup attempt by a handful of crew, rallied by a single insubordinate malcontent who arguably should have been brigged a third of the way into the film.

Under normal circumstances, the security staff would probably thank her for her initiative, then post some guards at the escape pods so she can go back to doing her actual job. That this did not happen gave me the impression that security was already stretched close to the breaking point, so they couldn't spare anyone, and/or everyone was so demoralized that few people were even bothering trying to hand out orders anymore.

More likely the former. If the fleet in general was that demoralized, they wouldn't even have been able to organize the evacuation of the transports.

You're the last person that could say that.

Oh yeah, play the victim.

You're the one who started off by insulting anyone who disagrees with you here. And you'll note I'm not throwing these accusations or insults at anyone but you.

No, Holdo hadn't been in command too long when that happened.

Why? Because you arbitrarily say so? The bit with Rose happened more or less right after Holdo takes command in the film.

It's a clear a sign that there is a problem to be addressed. They are all volunteers that, up to that point, had been on unsanctioned activity (by their government, the New Republic), not drafted civilians or half hearted career military.

It shows that the FO managed to scare them, and they needed some form of reassurance.

No doubt, but I question weather Holdo was in a position to be aware of the full extent of the problem, or to address it more than she did, given the circumstances. Or, for that matter, that more than a small minority of the crew were feeling mutinous.

Nor do I feel that any of that justifies a mutiny.

He got the dreadnought and was demoted for insubordination, not incompetence.

It is very clear that Leia's objection was to both the insubordination and the loss of an entire bomber squadron (the only one they had, to boot).

He asked for a plan more than once. And yes, she had every reason to tell him.

No. No she didn't.

Do you really believe that an admiral is obligated to give their battle plans to an insubordinate captain who's just been demoted, in a situation where they have every reason to believe there is a spy, after he has just publicly questioned their authority in the middle of a crisis? Of course not. No remotely informed and intelligent person would think that, if they put any thought into the matter.

I really do not know what to attribute this to if not gender bias: that if a mere woman is in command, she must justify her competence and authority to an extent that would never be asked otherwise.

Whatever else anyone thinks of the film, Holdo, Poe, or my arguments, can we put this bit of idiocy to rest right now, and all agree that Holdo had no obligation to tell Poe a damn thing?

You mean the others that mutinied with him? Because even the bridge crew was in on the mutiny.

I only saw a handful of people on-screen actively involved in the mutiny. Holdo could never have retaken the ship if the entire crew was actively against her.

You want to portray this as a popular uprising against Holdo, you justify it.

Poe is still the wing commander (even when there's no longer a fighter wing), he is ex-New Republic officer and he is chosen by Leia as his successor. But if you want to nitpick, there is no scene where they straight tell the hierarchy.

Demanding you back up your claims when they have a direct bearing on the subject being debated is not a "nitpick", jackass.

Poe's a captain who just got disciplined for violating orders and getting a bunch of people killed, and follows it up with more insubordination in a crisis.

Holdo owes him nothing but a trip to the brig.

You're using hindsight here. The rest of the crew didn't know there was a plan,

Prove it. Prove that she told no one. Prove that they were all ignorant, even as they were loading the transports. Prove that it would have made a damn bit of difference if she had told them all sooner, given that Poe mutinied after he knew the transports were being loaded. In fact, IIRC, because he knew the transports were being loaded.

And in any case, my point stands that the plan would have in all probability worked fine, without Poe's interference plus bad luck. Which is certainly a point against Holdo being incompetent.

the "stealth" ships (they are actually not stealth, only some technobabble about engine baffling or something) nor a nearby planet. If you want to use Holdo's plan, then you need her to, at least, tell her crew there is one. Which she didn't.

Prove it. And prove that it would have made a damn bit of difference if she had, given that Poe mutinied after he knew about the transports.

But since you are saying stealth isn't actually stealth, and actually denying that there is a nearby planet when the entire last act of the film takes place there, I don't think we can attach much weight to anything that you say.

So much for keeping it civil.

I merely repaid you in kind.

No, it's not a fucking gender cliche, were she a man, I would also call him Pinky. Hell, I even recall Yoda being call Greenie. Her unfitness to her position is not based on gender. Hux is unfit for his position as well, even moreso than Holdo.

Nice of you to acknowledge that, but calling a female leader "Pinky" (evoking her appearance and gender clichés) to belittle her is absolutely sexist. If you did not intend it as such, that merely shows that you were being an ignorant idiot, rather than malicious.

Back on the discussion, it's not just Poe that mutinies, only her assistant is on her side. She never tries to talk it out, just shuts her mouth and lets everything play out.

Most of the crew, to all appearances, took no part, but just sat it out or got on with their jobs. If only Holdo's assistant was on her side against the entire rest of the crew, she'd never have taken the ship back.

Also, just ignore that Leia was on her side.

DJ knew about the plan because she never tried to get anyone to trust her in the first place. If she said there was a plan, then the communication where DJ overhears the shuttle business would not have happened. For Poe and the rest of the crew, she was leading them to the slaughter (and there was ample evidence of that).

There was no solid evidence of that other than the assumption that she is unfit.

The entire point of the subplot was for the audience to believe she was a traitor that hated Poe, so it could be subverted to show she was one of the good guys and actually liked him. And be a device for Poe's character growth, by learning to stick to the hierarchy

Not "learning to stick to the hierarchy". Learning not to take knee-jerk risks unilaterally.

And while I expected her to be either incompetent or a traitor until the reveal, it was more because I'm used to that cliché being flogged in Hollywood, than because it actually made sense. No doubt the audience was intended to believe that, but not because it makes sense based on Holdo's actions. Rather, because the film was showing us things from Poe's perspective (a protagonist we had already gotten to know and sympathize with), and because it was playing to genre expectations.

(which I'm not really sure is that good of a message, but oh well).

Yeah, you should always rebel, even when there is a good reason not to! Ron Paul 2020!

[The Romulan Republic]

How respected was Holdo to begin with in her command?

Well, Poe is aware of her by reputation from some past battle, and seems to respect her until he's disappointed by meeting her in person.

Also, Leia clearly trusts her, and regards her as a personal friend.

The bomber wing came from her command, yet within hours or days Poe had enough clout with them that they ignored a direct order from Princess Leia.

Hmm, forgot about the bombers being from her command, but we don't know how long ago they were transferred, do we?

In any case, Poe is no doubt also highly respected at that point in the film. I think that's part of why Poe was able to persuade people to mutiny, probably- not because Holdo was obviously incompetent and negatively-regarded by the crew as a whole, but because Poe has a "hero who gets shit done" reputation as well.

Essentially, it was a feud between two officers who were both well-regarded by the people under them.

Is it even possible that she had the crew of the Ninka prepare the transports and only shared the plan with them?

Quite possible.

After all, if there was a spy on board, they would most likely have to be in the bridge crew or command staff, or maybe engineering, if they were leaking the ship's location. The hanger bay crews would be comparatively safe to inform, in comparison.

This is all speculative of course, not outright stated in the film, but I think it fits with what we've seen.

[FaxModem1]

When people are deserting enough that Rose is stationed at the escape pods to prevent it, you have a morale problem that needs better attention than, 'Im in charge now, have hope'. And keeping her bridge crew thinking that they need to mutiny against her to survive proves that she wasn't delivering on leadership. Something utterly necessary in a voluntary militia like the Resistance.

Again, every military in history has had desertions, often in much less dire straights. A handful of people out of a fleet of hundreds doesn't immediately scream to me "mutiny imminent".

And this is a volunteer militia. One speech isn't going to cut it. Especially when your 'brilliant plan' involves going in a straight line for a day and losing all of your forces, and that's Plan A.

I'll also note, again, that it was a fairly small number who appeared to actively mutiny, and I doubt they would have done so without Poe's instigation. So I reiterate: If Holdo made one major error, it was not tossing Poe in the brig sooner.

Including the ship's bridge crew. Sure, there may be a traitor on board, but if the bridge crew is turning against you, people are deserting, and you don't take the other options available, you are incompetent at your job.

In addition, all of the film takes place over the course of a single battle, during which Holdo was trying to take command of fleet that had just lost most of its command staff, and organize an evacuation. Maybe she was, you know, busy with keeping the fleet alive?

Not really. They lost two of their three ships needlessly, and the crews , skeleton or not, were also lost. Holdo got lucky that Hux was so incompetent that he didn't put her in a pincer and ruin her plan in five minutes.

Alternate solutions, as I, and others have noted:
A. Make a phone call in route, not when you finally get to Crystal Hoth. This is proven possible when Pie, Finn, and Rose do it.
B. Split the fleet up, trying to lure the First Order fleet away from most of your ships and rendezvous later.
C. Hide somewhere where you don't immediately lose resources and people, like the Asteroid field from ESB, the debris from Alderaan, the crazy nebula from Star Wars Rebels, etc. And fight the First Order with a terrain advantage, or wait until reinforcements arrive.
D. Go to New Republic space, and make a fight there. If the First Order is already in open war with the New Republic, join forces and fight them with superior numbers and firepower.
E. Risky one: fly through Imperial Remnant space and see if you can start an enemy civil war via Imperial and Hux's stupidity.

These all ensure that they have at least one ship more than Holdo's plan, which is to sacrfice all three ships and hope that the First Order is unable to find them once hidden.

Holdo got very lucky that the enemy fleet didn't entrap them and blow them to pieces, and Hux got very lucky that the Resistance did nothing but go on a straight line for about a day.

[The Romulan Republic]

And this is a volunteer militia. One speech isn't going to cut it. Especially when your 'brilliant plan' involves going in a straight line for a day and losing all of your forces, and that's Plan A.

Given her resources and the tactical situation, what else could Holdo realistically have done that would have a had a higher chance of success, or caused significantly less losses?

She could have said "Yes, I have a plan, honest", if she had assumed that her crew had no confidence in her leadership. But if they had no confidence in her leadership, would they have believed her? She couldn't have told everyone what that plan is without risking compromising it. Nor would it have made much difference if she had, likely. Poe refused to abandon the command ship despite the circumstances, and at some point, you either trust your commanding officer to not be a complete idiot, or you don't.

Including the ship's bridge crew. Sure, there may be a traitor on board, but if the bridge crew is turning against you, people are deserting, and you don't take the other options available, you are incompetent at your job.

She had a plan that would have saved most of their remaining personnel if not for Poe and bad luck. A plan which it would have likely been unsafe for her to make general knowledge, and which Poe might well have mutinied against anyway. Most of the crew did not mutiny. Every military in history has suffered desertions, but there is no proof, nor any real evidence, that the majority of the crew, or even a large minority, shared Poe's negative outlook enough to act on it.

That is not incompetence. That's "Poe is a jackass, but a charismatic/persuasive enough jackass to convince a few other frightened people to go along with his jackassery."

Not really. They lost two of their three ships needlessly, and the crews , skeleton or not, were also lost.

Do we actually know that any crew from those ships other than that one captain was lost? I don't think so (and we've seen, from Holdo's subsequent death, that one person can man a ship's bridge well enough to keep it flying while the survivors evacuate).

In any case, perhaps those vessels could have been saved by splitting them off and jumping them to hyperspace, if it is true that only the lead ship was being tracked through hyperspace. But the likely trade off is that it would have deprived the cap. ship of its only possible anti-fighter escorts (since the ship's hanger and all its fighters had gotten blown up in Ren's earlier fighter raid).

One might also question the wisdom of dividing one's forces when facing a superior foe, in general.

Holdo got lucky that Hux was so incompetent that he didn't put her in a pincer and ruin her plan in five minutes.

Hux is certainly incompetent, I won't argue that. And if he had had the fleet come out of hyperspace in a pincer formation, the Resistance would have died, end of story (barring a miracle, anyway). But I think that that would have been the case if, say, Ackbar had been in command instead of Holdo.

Alternate solutions, as I, and others have noted:
A. Make a phone call in route, not when you finally get to Crystal Hoth. This is proven possible when Pie, Finn, and Rose do it.

This is strange, but considering that neither Leia nor Holdo seem to think its viable, I think we have to presume that there is some reason for it.

Maybe the transmitter had limited range, and their allies were further away.

Maybe the only long-range transmitter that was operational was on the ship Finn and Rose took (though that's a big stretch).

Unless you assume that Holdo and her staff are unaware of the concept of a phone call (which I also think is a pretty big stretch), then there has to be some reason for it. Given various implausible explanations, none of which are stated in the film- well, there's no reason to settle on "Holdo is too stupid to pick up a phone" as the obvious correct one, unless you are biased against the character (for whatever reason).

B. Split the fleet up, trying to lure the First Order fleet away from most of your ships and rendezvous later.

Addressed the issues with this above. In all likelihood, it would have meant trading the command ship and everyone on board to save two support ships.

C. Hide somewhere where you don't immediately lose resources and people, like the Asteroid field from ESB, the debris from Alderaan, the crazy nebula from Star Wars Rebels, etc. And fight the First Order with a terrain advantage, or wait until reinforcements arrive.

An interesting possibility, but it has at least three serious problems:

1. Those kinds of territories tend to be hazardous for starships. And most definitely not places you want to be stranded after using up your remaining fuel (including for power to the shields) on one last hyperspace jump.

2. Some of those environments might inhibit communications.

3. It assumes such an environment was within range for their remaining fuel reserves.

D. Go to New Republic space, and make a fight there. If the First Order is already in open war with the New Republic, join forces and fight them with superior numbers and firepower.

IIRC, the premise seems to be that the NR is basically non-existent already. We can question weather that makes sense, but it is what it is.

E. Risky one: fly through Imperial Remnant space and see if you can start an enemy civil war via Imperial and Hux's stupidity.

Not going to comment on the feasibility of this, because the film mentions nothing about any Imperial Remnant, and I haven't closely followed the new EU.

But I will point out that it likely means making an enemy of the Imps as well, and getting captured by them. That's not so much "risky" as "suicidal".

These all ensure that they have at least one ship more than Holdo's plan, which is to sacrfice all three ships and hope that the First Order is unable to find them once hidden.

The plan was to preserve their personnel until they could rally support for a larger insurgency. It in all likelihood would have worked fine, if not for Poe, a turncoat who never should have known about the fleet, and bad luck.

In none of these scenarios do they realistically save the command ship. They might have been able to save the support ships, but it would have meant stripping defenses from the command ship, and likely getting fewer people out as a consequence.

Holdo got very lucky that the enemy fleet didn't entrap them and blow them to pieces, and Hux got very lucky that the Resistance did nothing but go on a straight line for about a day.

I won't disagree that Hux is a moron.

Someone like, say, Legends Thrawn would have mopped up the Resistance (sans Rey, the Falcon, and Luke) long before they reached Crait. But that would have almost certainly been the case, given the disparity in forces and the overall tactical and strategic situation, even if Ackbar or Leia had been in command.

Hell, if you put Thrawn in charge of the Resistance forces, I think he would have probably done only marginally better than Holdo. You can only do so much when you've been dealt a really shitty hand.

And I mean, you could probably nitpick most SF space battle plans like this, or come up with alternatives that might (or might not) have been better. Holdo's is subjected to disproportionate criticism, in my opinion.

[tezunegari]

Was it ever stated on screen that they suspected to have a traitor/spy among them?

IIRC the first thing they suspect when the Supremacy fleet appears in deep space is "They tracked us in Hyperspace?!" not "They found us. How did they get a beacon aboard?"

[The Romulan Republic]

Was it ever stated on screen that they suspected to have a traitor/spy among them?

No, its not. And I will acknowledge that this is a point the film should have raised, and that its not doing so is a fair criticism of the script.

It is, however, the obvious conclusion to make based on the hyperspace tracking, since that's supposed to be impossible. And therefore a reason why it would have been unwise to widely divulge plans.

IIRC the first thing they suspect when the Supremacy fleet appears in deep space is "They tracked us in Hyperspace?!" not "They found us. How did they get a beacon aboard?"

That's what Rose/Finn discuss.

I can't recall Holdo saying anything on it one way or the other, but I may have simply forgotten.

[The Romulan Republic]

I still want to know how Finn and Rose survived the final battle. The AT-ATs on Hoth showed no mercy against the fleeing rebel foot soldiers.

This is a very good question.

The only thing I can think is that they didn't want to waste ammo. on one guy and one possibly dead woman who had nowhere to run to (so far as they knew).