Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[CetaMan]

Plot demands that characters must survive, hence the incompetence of villains in any Disney movie...

On a more serious standpoint, might be orders by Ren not to kill those ID's as Rey's companions (unlikely), or the gunners were focussing on the still-somewhat intact defense turrets rather then fleeing soldiers...

[The Romulan Republic]

Plot demands that characters must survive, hence the incompetence of villains in any Disney movie...

On a more serious standpoint, might be orders by Ren not to kill those ID's as Rey's companions (unlikely), or the gunners were focussing on the still-somewhat intact defense turrets rather then fleeing soldiers...

Taking hostages that could be used to try to turn Rey would actually make sense for Kylo to do. Pity there's no suggestion of it in the film.

[FaxModem1]

And this is a volunteer militia. One speech isn't going to cut it. Especially when your 'brilliant plan' involves going in a straight line for a day and losing all of your forces, and that's Plan A.

Given her resources and the tactical situation, what else could Holdo realistically have done that would have a had a higher chance of success, or caused significantly less losses?

She could have said "Yes, I have a plan, honest", if she had assumed that her crew had no confidence in her leadership. But if they had no confidence in her leadership, would they have believed her? She couldn't have told everyone what that plan is without risking compromising it. Nor would it have made much difference if she had, likely. Poe refused to abandon the command ship despite the circumstances, and at some point, you either trust your commanding officer to not be a complete idiot, or you don't.

It's better than, "I'm in command, trust me." Leia, we know, has that kind of trust, but then she also conferred with her officers, reasoning things out. Until she was in a coma due to space battle, something that killed lesser men like Ackbar.

And since both sides act idiotically throughout the movie, thinking Holdo is too stupid to use the phone is a viable option, since other characters clearly use it in the same film, on the same ship, with no complaints about being out of range or jamming comms, or any other possibilities.

Including the ship's bridge crew. Sure, there may be a traitor on board, but if the bridge crew is turning against you, people are deserting, and you don't take the other options available, you are incompetent at your job.

She had a plan that would have saved most of their remaining personnel if not for Poe and bad luck. A plan which it would have likely been unsafe for her to make general knowledge, and which Poe might well have mutinied against anyway. Most of the crew did not mutiny. Every military in history has suffered desertions, but there is no proof, nor any real evidence, that the majority of the crew, or even a large minority, shared Poe's negative outlook enough to act on it.

That is not incompetence. That's "Poe is a jackass, but a charismatic/persuasive enough jackass to convince a few other frightened people to go along with his jackassery."

But it's not just Poe she doesn't brief, it's everybody who isn't refueling the transports. Even if she tells them a false plan, it would give her crews something to do and focus on that rather than panicking and either mutinying, or abandoning ship.

Not really. They lost two of their three ships needlessly, and the crews , skeleton or not, were also lost.

Do we actually know that any crew from those ships other than that one captain was lost? I don't think so (and we've seen, from Holdo's subsequent death, that one person can man a ship's bridge well enough to keep it flying while the survivors evacuate).

In any case, perhaps those vessels could have been saved by splitting them off and jumping them to hyperspace, if it is true that only the lead ship was being tracked through hyperspace. But the likely trade off is that it would have deprived the cap. ship of its only possible anti-fighter escorts (since the ship's hanger and all its fighters had gotten blown up in Ren's earlier fighter raid).

One might also question the wisdom of dividing one's forces when facing a superior foe, in general.

Think of it like this, at least two out of three ships survive, instead of the entire flotilla.

Holdo got lucky that Hux was so incompetent that he didn't put her in a pincer and ruin her plan in five minutes.

Hux is certainly incompetent, I won't argue that. And if he had had the fleet come out of hyperspace in a pincer formation, the Resistance would have died, end of story (barring a miracle, anyway). But I think that that would have been the case if, say, Ackbar had been in command instead of Holdo.

Yes, but Ackbar might have run to a friendly system, or he might have been turned into fried calamari to be served with appropriate dipping sauce. I have no clue how Ackbar would have handled it.

Alternate solutions, as I, and others have noted:
A. Make a phone call in route, not when you finally get to Crystal Hoth. This is proven possible when Pie, Finn, and Rose do it.

This is strange, but considering that neither Leia nor Holdo seem to think its viable, I think we have to presume that there is some reason for it.

Maybe the transmitter had limited range, and their allies were further away.

Maybe the only long-range transmitter that was operational was on the ship Finn and Rose took (though that's a big stretch).

Unless you assume that Holdo and her staff are unaware of the concept of a phone call (which I also think is a pretty big stretch), then there has to be some reason for it. Given various implausible explanations, none of which are stated in the film- well, there's no reason to settle on "Holdo is too stupid to pick up a phone" as the obvious correct one, unless you are biased against the character (for whatever reason).

Given that she has no concept of evasive tactics aside from going in a straight line for a day, it's possible that she doesn't know how to use the phone, and like the Old Rebellion, didn't get her rank by military credit, but by political influence and number of resources she brought to the table.

B. Split the fleet up, trying to lure the First Order fleet away from most of your ships and rendezvous later.

Addressed the issues with this above. In all likelihood, it would have meant trading the command ship and everyone on board to save two support ships.

Seeing as how her plan sacrifices all three, it's an improvement.

C. Hide somewhere where you don't immediately lose resources and people, like the Asteroid field from ESB, the debris from Alderaan, the crazy nebula from Star Wars Rebels, etc. And fight the First Order with a terrain advantage, or wait until reinforcements arrive.

An interesting possibility, but it has at least three serious problems:

1. Those kinds of territories tend to be hazardous for starships. And most definitely not places you want to be stranded after using up your remaining fuel (including for power to the shields) on one last hyperspace jump.

2. Some of those environments might inhibit communications.

3. It assumes such an environment was within range for their remaining fuel reserves.

Considering the galaxy map and how far the flotilla is from casino world, on the other side of the Galaxy, distance doesn't seem to be an issue.

And again, this is playing for time while also keeping one's assets. Better chances than purposely letting your fleet get destroyed.

D. Go to New Republic space, and make a fight there. If the First Order is already in open war with the New Republic, join forces and fight them with superior numbers and firepower.

IIRC, the premise seems to be that the NR is basically non-existent already. We can question weather that makes sense, but it is what it is.

It's been less than a week since the Starkiller blew up. If the New Republic is that inept and military bare that they were invaded by a proxy nation in a week, they deserved what happened to them.

E. Risky one: fly through Imperial Remnant space and see if you can start an enemy civil war via Imperial and Hux's stupidity.

Not going to comment on the feasibility of this, because the film mentions nothing about any Imperial Remnant, and I haven't closely followed the new EU.

But I will point out that it likely means making an enemy of the Imps as well, and getting captured by them. That's not so much "risky" as "suicidal".

Like I said, risky. And it has the benefit of sacrificing the ship's for a purpose, and not dying pointlessly.

Again, the New Republic and Resistance are already in an all out war, doing something to hurt the enemy rather than just letting them kill you is a better option.

These all ensure that they have at least one ship more than Holdo's plan, which is to sacrfice all three ships and hope that the First Order is unable to find them once hidden.

The plan was to preserve their personnel until they could rally support for a larger insurgency. It in all likelihood would have worked fine, if not for Poe, a turncoat who never should have known about the fleet, and bad luck.

In none of these scenarios do they realistically save the command ship. They might have been able to save the support ships, but it would have meant stripping defenses from the command ship, and likely getting fewer people out as a consequence.

Or the First Order notes the only habitable planet in the area, since the flotilla led them straight there, and didn't divert them and double back with the stealth transports, and bombards the base or planet. Score another one for the Resistance being lucky that Hux is as dumb as a box of rocks.

Holdo got very lucky that the enemy fleet didn't entrap them and blow them to pieces, and Hux got very lucky that the Resistance did nothing but go on a straight line for about a day.

I won't disagree that Hux is a moron.

Someone like, say, Legends Thrawn would have mopped up the Resistance (sans Rey, the Falcon, and Luke) long before they reached Crait. But that would have almost certainly been the case, given the disparity in forces and the overall tactical and strategic situation, even if Ackbar or Leia had been in command.

Hell, if you put Thrawn in charge of the Resistance forces, I think he would have probably done only marginally better than Holdo. You can only do so much when you've been dealt a really shitty hand.

And I mean, you could probably nitpick most SF space battle plans like this, or come up with alternatives that might (or might not) have been better. Holdo's is subjected to disproportionate criticism, in my opinion.

It took me out of the movie as both sides were so idiotic that I could have constructed better strategies to win the day. And I'm a moron.

[The Romulan Republic]

It's better than, "I'm in command, trust me." Leia, we know, has that kind of trust, but then she also conferred with her officers, reasoning things out. Until she was in a coma due to space battle, something that killed lesser men like Ackbar.

Yeah, but given that Holdo was Leia's friend and subordinate, and that Poe's dialogue suggests that she was fairly well-respected, it wasn't like, from an in-universe perspective, she was just coming out of nowhere and demanding blind loyalty.

Nor is there actually proof that most of the crew distrusted her. Poe did. And the film repeatedly shows that Poe is an ass. Hell, Poe didn't trust Leia's judgment either, even if he was closer to her on a personal level.

And since both sides act idiotically throughout the movie, thinking Holdo is too stupid to use the phone is a viable option, since other characters clearly use it in the same film, on the same ship, with no complaints about being out of range or jamming comms, or any other possibilities.

I don't know, I think there's a certain point where the level of stupidity you'd have to assume for characters who are clearly intended by the film to be at least somewhat capable is so high that you have to consider other explanations if available, or else just ignore the entire point and plot of the film.

But it's not just Poe she doesn't brief, it's everybody who isn't refueling the transports.

With good reason.

Even if she tells them a false plan, it would give her crews something to do and focus on that rather than panicking and either mutinying, or abandoning ship.

A false plan is indeed a good idea, if only to throw off any possible spies. But considering that finding out part of her actual plan is what prompted Flyboy McJackass to mutiny, I'm not sure it would have done much good.

Think of it like this, at least two out of three ships survive, instead of the entire flotilla.

Potentially at the cost of the lives of most or all of the people on the command ship, yes.

Yes, but Ackbar might have run to a friendly system, or he might have been turned into fried calamari to be served with appropriate dipping sauce. I have no clue how Ackbar would have handled it.

Fair enough. I'm just pointing out that given the situation, I'm not sure anyone else would have handled it better, and Ackbar is the obvious alternative here (had the film opted to have him survive).

I'm also probably venting my irritation at how a lot of peoples' (not you) hostility to Holdo seems to stem from "Waaahhhh, it should have been Ackbar in command!" Because fans tend to hate anything new, especially if that something new is seen as replacing something old.

Given that she has no concept of evasive tactics aside from going in a straight line for a day, it's possible that she doesn't know how to use the phone, and like the Old Rebellion, didn't get her rank by military credit, but by political influence and number of resources she brought to the table.

Are we seriously fucking going with "Holdo must literally be too stupid to know how to make a phone call" as the most reasonable argument? To the point that we will immediately discard any alternative arguments?

Jesus Christ, sometimes I hate fandom.

And I somehow doubt that she is ignorant of evasive tactics. I think it far more likely that cruiser-scale ships can't dodge turbolaser bolts. Just like they couldn't in every other film.

See, this is my problem: People are so determined to bash this film and its characters that they not only actively look for anything to bash, and nitpick things that would likely be given a pass in other films- they ignore canon evidence and make absolutely ludicrous assumptions and assertions as if they were objective facts because the allow for more bashing.

You are arguing against a film that does not exist.

Seeing as how her plan sacrifices all three, it's an improvement.

See above reg. sacrificing the people on the command ship.

Considering the galaxy map and how far the flotilla is from casino world, on the other side of the Galaxy, distance doesn't seem to be an issue.

In that case, I will concede that particular point.

And again, this is playing for time while also keeping one's assets. Better chances than purposely letting your fleet get destroyed.

If you think flying your ships into a death trap with literally no way to ever get them out again is "preserving them", I'm not sure what I can say to you.

I mean, I guess "scuttle all our ships on the nearest reef" is an option for the truly fucked, but its not a plan you adopt because it'll help you win. Its a plan you adopt when you've accepted that you've already lost.

It's been less than a week since the Starkiller blew up. If the New Republic is that inept and military bare that they were invaded by a proxy nation in a week, they deserved what happened to them.

Yeah, ineptitude deserves to be punished by genocide.

I'm disappointed. I never really saw you as one of the Social Darwinism Internet Tough Guy types.

Like I said, risky. And it has the benefit of sacrificing the ship's for a purpose, and not dying pointlessly.

But it is a plan premised on "we are all going to die". Holdo was still trying to keep her people alive and at liberty, and sacrificed her ships in a bid to buy time to save her personnel. Which means said ships were, in fact, sacrificed for a purpose.

Again, the New Republic and Resistance are already in an all out war, doing something to hurt the enemy rather than just letting them kill you is a better option.

The thing about the NR being gone is implausible, but that appears to be the intent of cannon. So given the circumstances, Holdo cannot be blamed for not going to a government that did not exist for aid.

Or the First Order notes the only habitable planet in the area, since the flotilla led them straight there, and didn't divert them and double back with the stealth transports, and bombards the base or planet. Score another one for the Resistance being lucky that Hux is as dumb as a box of rocks.

If the First Order detected no ship heading toward/reaching the planet, and believed all the Resistance ships destroyed, why would they bother to make a thorough search of the planet? Its possible that Snoke or Kylo might have sensed them through the Force, but Force sensing is imperfect, and by that reasoning, any attempt at deception would be similarly pointless in any case.

Also, doubling back would have burned more fuel, meaning that they potentially couldn't have gotten the transports as close to the planet before the shields failed.

I don't disagree that they got lucky that Hux is a moron, but not because Holdo was incompetent. Rather, because the odds were stacked so high against them that even a competent commander couldn't have hoped to accomplish much if their enemies weren't poorly lead.

This is typical for Star Wars, of course. The Rebellion would have ended at Yavin if Tarkin wasn't an arrogant wanker. The heroes win because of their enemies' overconfidence and carelessness as much as their own virtues.

It took me out of the movie as both sides were so idiotic that I could have constructed better strategies to win the day. And I'm a moron.

In that case, I wonder why you are trying so hard to make them out to be stupider than they actually are.

Though I'm curious as to how you would have had the battle play out, if writing both sides for maximum competency.

[The Romulan Republic]

Another point reg. going to the NR for aid:

If the NR is so reluctant to fight the First Order, and is folding that quickly, then it indicates a large contingent of FO sympathizers in the NR government.

Would you turn your forces over to people who might just hand you over to your pursuers? At that point, I wouldn't trust anyone who wasn't a close confidant of either Leia's (not counting Captain Mutiny), or myself.

Edit: To put it another way, the First Order are space Nazis, and the NR is Space France in a galaxy with no Britain, USA, or Soviet Union. And anything left of the NR now is probably Space Vichy France.

[Rhadamantus]

The hostility around this topic is becoming insane.

[The Romulan Republic]

The hostility around this topic is becoming insane.

I'm trying not to go completely nuclear at anyone (well, except maybe CaoCao).

But yeah. Not that this is anything new for the fandom (or fandoms in general). It was the same with the Prequels, and it'll likely be the same with every new Star Wars film, to one degree or another (at least until most of the original OT fans are dead or in nursing homes, and probably even after that).

Its also a predictable consequence of the fandom being politicized. The ST has, like it or not, very much become a battle ground in the Age of Trump. And even when the argument isn't political, I think to some extent that increases the tension level of the whole discussion. People come in expecting to see politically motivated attacks, either from Alt. Rightists or "SJWs" (depending on ones' political viewpoint). People are operating on a hair-trigger.

Partly, I suppose, its even TLJ's fault, if you want to call it a fault. By relying so heavily on subversion and misdirection, it opens itself to misinterpretation. And by deliberately playing with and subverting the expectations of fans, it risked provoking maximum hostile backlash due to disappointed expectations.

But mostly, I think, its just fandom being fandom.

Damn it.

[Galvatron]

I can't muster enough interest in the sequel trilogy to justify any hostility over it. I always knew it was an unnecessary cash-grab and essentially one big anticlimactic epilogue to the saga that really ended in ROTJ, but I didn't expect it to become so glaringly obvious in Episode VIII.

[The Romulan Republic]

I can't muster enough interest in the sequel trilogy to justify any hostility over it. I always knew it was an unnecessary cash-grab and essentially one big anticlimactic epilogue to the saga that really ended in ROTJ, but I didn't expect it to become so glaringly obvious in Episode VIII.

I tend to feel like rolling my eyes whenever anyone accuses a sequel of being a "cash-grab", because its a meaningless complaint that can be (and probably is) trotted out against literally any sequel ever. Yeah, people and companies want to make money for their products. That does not mean that the product has no value. What, you think Lucas didn't want to make money with the OT, but was motivated purely by love of his craft?

Likewise, "unnecessary". Every film after A New Hope was "unnecessary." Hell, all fiction is "unnecessary" if you want to take that argument far enough. The question is not weather the film needed to be made, but weather having been made, it contributes something positive to our culture. I personally feel that the ST does.

Anti-climactic? Yeah, I can see that, but personally I don't have a problem with the story going on. You could say that the Cold War was an anti-climax to WW2. Doesn't mean that the stories that took place aren't interesting on their own terms. Its a big universe. There's a lot to explore, limited only by peoples' imagination.

Though I do think that it was an error to make the story so OT-like initially, due to it coming off as a lamer retread. But I also can guess why that was done (to pander to the demands of the same fanbase that's now whining about it being too much like the OT). If anything, VIII was much better on this score than VII. I very much fear that Disney's takeaway from the backlash will be "We better stay safely inside the box in the future." Which would make further films increasingly redundant.

[Galvatron]

I admit that TESB was a cash-grab. It's fairly well-known that Lucas viewed everything after ANH as a means to finance Skywalker Ranch and his dreams of it becoming an indie filmmaker's Xanadu.

We simply got lucky with TESB.

[Gandalf]

On account of being made by a huge corporation, isn't it all a cash grab, from ANH on?

[Galvatron]

Of course it is. Being a cash-grab doesn't automatically make something bad, but it's not a virtue either. TESB was good despite being a cash-grab. So was Aliens. So was Terminator 2.

Lucas admitted TESB was better than he wanted it to be. Hell, he would have made Splinter of the Mind's Eye as a low-budget sequel if ANH hadn't been a hit.

[FaxModem1]

It's better than, "I'm in command, trust me." Leia, we know, has that kind of trust, but then she also conferred with her officers, reasoning things out. Until she was in a coma due to space battle, something that killed lesser men like Ackbar.

Yeah, but given that Holdo was Leia's friend and subordinate, and that Poe's dialogue suggests that she was fairly well-respected, it wasn't like, from an in-universe perspective, she was just coming out of nowhere and demanding blind loyalty.

Nor is there actually proof that most of the crew distrusted her. Poe did. And the film repeatedly shows that Poe is an ass. Hell, Poe didn't trust Leia's judgment either, even if he was closer to her on a personal level.

No, it seemed that Poe worshipped the ground Leia walked on. Anyway, it sounds a bit like nepotism.

And since both sides act idiotically throughout the movie, thinking Holdo is too stupid to use the phone is a viable option, since other characters clearly use it in the same film, on the same ship, with no complaints about being out of range or jamming comms, or any other possibilities.

I don't know, I think there's a certain point where the level of stupidity you'd have to assume for characters who are clearly intended by the film to be at least somewhat capable is so high that you have to consider other explanations if available, or else just ignore the entire point and plot of the film.

I would have loved to, if they hadn't made a pointless scene of Maz in a barfight while fighting. It establishes that they have galactic communications, but for some reason, they don't use them until they're Planetside. If that scene was cut out, I'd be more willing to suspend my disbelief about the Resistance's lack of communication ability. But hey, kids like Maz, so we better include a scene of her to boost toy sales.

But it's not just Poe she doesn't brief, it's everybody who isn't refueling the transports.

With good reason.

Except for the dismal morale, mutinies, and desertions, which may or may not be commonplace.

Even if she tells them a false plan, it would give her crews something to do and focus on that rather than panicking and either mutinying, or abandoning ship.

A false plan is indeed a good idea, if only to throw off any possible spies. But considering that finding out part of her actual plan is what prompted Flyboy McJackass to mutiny, I'm not sure it would have done much good.

He objected because she came off, both in-universe and out, as way over her head and unwilling to entertain other options. I'm reasonably sure Poe wouldn't have mutinied if she gave him something to do that wasn't just tweedle our thumbs until we die. Giving people busywork that might even pay off later is a common tactic in a crisis. Telling them to shut up and act as if you're doing something will cause a crisis, as we see in a film.

Think of it like this, at least two out of three ships survive, instead of the entire flotilla.

Potentially at the cost of the lives of most or all of the people on the command ship, yes.

As compared to losing all three and only having what they squeezed onto the Falcon, then yes, that's better. Or alternatively, sacrificing the other ships if they're more expendable in a fireship method as she eventually did with the Raddus to evacuate to safety. Or have them tear off to a gas station, refuel, and then fill up the Raddus. Or having one ship act as a courier for other cells, fleets, or governments, to find reinforcements, and ride back with the cavalry. Point is, they had lots of options besides running until we die of lack of fuel.

Yes, but Ackbar might have run to a friendly system, or he might have been turned into fried calamari to be served with appropriate dipping sauce. I have no clue how Ackbar would have handled it.

Fair enough. I'm just pointing out that given the situation, I'm not sure anyone else would have handled it better, and Ackbar is the obvious alternative here (had the film opted to have him survive).

I'm also probably venting my irritation at how a lot of peoples' (not you) hostility to Holdo seems to stem from "Waaahhhh, it should have been Ackbar in command!" Because fans tend to hate anything new, especially if that something new is seen as replacing something old.

I'm not attached to the character. I do like his cereal however.

Given that she has no concept of evasive tactics aside from going in a straight line for a day, it's possible that she doesn't know how to use the phone, and like the Old Rebellion, didn't get her rank by military credit, but by political influence and number of resources she brought to the table.

Are we seriously fucking going with "Holdo must literally be too stupid to know how to make a phone call" as the most reasonable argument? To the point that we will immediately discard any alternative arguments?

Jesus Christ, sometimes I hate fandom.

And I somehow doubt that she is ignorant of evasive tactics. I think it far more likely that cruiser-scale ships can't dodge turbolaser bolts. Just like they couldn't in every other film.

See, this is my problem: People are so determined to bash this film and its characters that they not only actively look for anything to bash, and nitpick things that would likely be given a pass in other films- they ignore canon evidence and make absolutely ludicrous assumptions and assertions as if they were objective facts because the allow for more bashing.

You are arguing against a film that does not exist.

See above. Our heroes use the phone, why didn't she? The only reason is Doylist, that they wanted to reveal that everyone in the galaxy told them to fuck off for the third act.

Watsonian, the best option is that they were broadcasting for the entire battle, and Holdo was counting on reinforcements coming to pick them up, not knowing she was dooming them all to becoming the Donner party because they would be unable to leave the solar system.

Seeing as how her plan sacrifices all three, it's an improvement.

See above reg. sacrificing the people on the command ship.

See my points about going to places with reinforcements and allies, making a fight at a starbase or whatever.

And again, this is playing for time while also keeping one's assets. Better chances than purposely letting your fleet get destroyed.

If you think flying your ships into a death trap with literally no way to ever get them out again is "preserving them", I'm not sure what I can say to you.

I mean, I guess "scuttle all our ships on the nearest reef" is an option for the truly fucked, but its not a plan you adopt because it'll help you win. Its a plan you adopt when you've accepted that you've already lost.

Which seemed to be Holdo's plan, strand them all on a planet and hope for a ride home, or starve to death if that doesn't happen. This way, with going somewhere else where they can hide or choose the terrain, they at least have a chance, or work towards getting a fair fight.

It's been less than a week since the Starkiller blew up. If the New Republic is that inept and military bare that they were invaded by a proxy nation in a week, they deserved what happened to them.

Yeah, ineptitude deserves to be punished by genocide.

I'm disappointed. I never really saw you as one of the Social Darwinism Internet Tough Guy types.

I'm tired of Star Wars making the only way to be utterly free from tyranny once you've won is to put your head on the chopping block by total disarmament, or by utter corruption making the military worthless. Freedom, peace, and victory don't have to mean throwing your gun away when the enemy wants to shoot you and is pointing a gun at you.

Star Trek has the UFP as soft, gentle, and good, but they still keep their fleet ready if the Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons, or whoever strikes. Sure, the Borg gave them a black eye, and the Dominion kicked them in the teeth, but they still held their ground and took appropriate action when things looked tough.

Andromeda has the Systems Commonwealth, which openly embraced community, democracy, freedom, tolerance, diplomacy, etc. But when they were betrayed by the Nietzchean, and received a sizable sucker punch, it still took years to take them down and they gave as good as they got, destroying Nietzchean dominance over the three galaxies.

In Star Wars, as soon as you support a free society, you chug stupid pills and totally disarm while in a cold war against your former oppressors, only fighting a proxy war with the FO and the Resistance.

And in Legends, the grand moral was, sure, liberty is cool, but you'll all die due to political bickering while the Vong tear apart the galaxy. Maybe Palpatine being in charge would have been better for the galaxy as a whole?

It shows that the people behind the scenes are afraid to change the setting into something different, so that they have to the good guys be total idiots to justify ripping away all the good things our heroes did in the previous films.

Like I said, risky. And it has the benefit of sacrificing the ship's for a purpose, and not dying pointlessly.

But it is a plan premised on "we are all going to die". Holdo was still trying to keep her people alive and at liberty, and sacrificed her ships in a bid to buy time to save her personnel. Which means said ships were, in fact, sacrificed for a purpose.

If stranding everyone and hoping for rescue is a purpose, sure. Otherwise, they wasted what was left of the Resistance on a failed Gambit as they slowly starve to death.

Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe those crystal dogs are edible.

Again, the New Republic and Resistance are already in an all out war, doing something to hurt the enemy rather than just letting them kill you is a better option.

The thing about the NR being gone is implausible, but that appears to be the intent of cannon. So given the circumstances, Holdo cannot be blamed for not going to a government that did not exist for aid.

See my disgust above for their twisting everything so that it can be evil machine vs underdogs again. The whole universe has to bend over backwards in how the interstellar politics work for this situation to make any sense.

Or the First Order notes the only habitable planet in the area, since the flotilla led them straight there, and didn't divert them and double back with the stealth transports, and bombards the base or planet. Score another one for the Resistance being lucky that Hux is as dumb as a box of rocks.

If the First Order detected no ship heading toward/reaching the planet, and believed all the Resistance ships destroyed, why would they bother to make a thorough search of the planet? Its possible that Snoke or Kylo might have sensed them through the Force, but Force sensing is imperfect, and by that reasoning, any attempt at deception would be similarly pointless in any case.

Also, doubling back would have burned more fuel, meaning that they potentially couldn't have gotten the transports as close to the planet before the shields failed.

I don't disagree that they got lucky that Hux is a moron, but not because Holdo was incompetent. Rather, because the odds were stacked so high against them that even a competent commander couldn't have hoped to accomplish much if their enemies weren't poorly lead.

This is typical for Star Wars, of course. The Rebellion would have ended at Yavin if Tarkin wasn't an arrogant wanker. The heroes win because of their enemies' overconfidence and carelessness as much as their own virtues.

There's a difference between, "They only lost at the end due to a miraculous bit of arrogance on the enemy's part and a hail Mary", and "Our entire plan rests on the enemy making one mistake after another over and over again, so much so that we might as well just sit back and watch them shoot themselves in the head due to how incompetent they are."

Yavin seems more like the former, Raddus seems pretty much like the latter. It's a lot to risk on no one noticing the planet, and the First Order not being bloodthirsty enough to blast it anyway, just to be sure.

It took me out of the movie as both sides were so idiotic that I could have constructed better strategies to win the day. And I'm a moron.

In that case, I wonder why you are trying so hard to make them out to be stupider than they actually are.

Though I'm curious as to how you would have had the battle play out, if writing both sides for maximum competency.

Because both sides were that incompetent. If this was a stand alone film, it might be justifiable, but this is showing such bad tactics in the setting that they might as well explicit explain that this is the dregs of both sides, as the professional military kept the competent officers.

As for a more chess match film?

Have the Resistance's sensors go silent for the solar system, they know to pack up and run. The First Order has surrounded them with Interdictors, meaning that they have to push through. The Resistance loses heavily making a hole, but they get through. Part of the reason being that Kylo Ren's conscience prevents him from killing his mom. (Yes, I know this is the season 3 finale of Rebels, but it worked well)

Unfortunately, a few broadsides from the capital ships that actually fire in this film, as opposed to just sitting there, as they did in the film, which does the job anyway, putting Leia into critical care. The Resistance runs at hyperspace, and the FO is right behind them. Holdo sends Rose to get help, and to watch Finn, as he might be a traitor, due to how less than a week ago, he was working for the enemy. Cue the ticking clock, and Finn and Rose trying to get anyone, mercenaries, bounty hunters, militias, Leftover New Republic forces, etc.

Have Holdo put the flotilla in hiding places, using dirty tricks, making booby traps that some of the FO fleet stumbles into. Showing why she should be in charge of the fleet. Hux, or an actual competent officer, notes what move the enemy fleet is making, and countermoves, avoiding some of the traps, and scoring a win against a Resistance wing of fighters or minor frigate. Both sides aren't underestimating each other, but both are costing each other lives and material, which the FO has more to spare.

Meanwhile, Captain Phasma is hunting down Finn and Rose, trying to dissuade those who are joining their noble cause, leading to a fight between Finn, Rose, and Phasma. Instead of a kid's movie style free the animals scene, hut while leaving the child slaves to rot. Maybe have the computer hacker point out that the rich are profiting while the grunts of both sides die.(But only if they're actually going to go somewhere with this in the third film)

Meanwhile, the Resistance fleet has no choice, they're running out of fuel, so they gun it to Corellia/Beeping/Naboo/new planet to restock and refuel, knowing they'll be stuck there until they refuel. The defense fleet there watches their back as the First Order comes in, bringing their own friends, the Imperial Remnant, as well. It turns into a meat grinder as both sides are committed and bringing all their forces to this fight. This battle will spell the fate of the galaxy. Finn and Rose's contributions comes in drips and drabs, keeping the Resistance and the New Republic alive, but at a high cost.

Thus, Rey's mission to get Luke to care is more crucial, as his intervention, though it would be minor, would tip the balance and stalemate that's at hand due to him leading everyone.

Anyway, that's me spitballing. Feel free to critique, but at least it makes Holdo's actions more understandable and make her seem like less of a buffoon.

[Galvatron]

[Civil War Man]

Fair enough. I'm just pointing out that given the situation, I'm not sure anyone else would have handled it better, and Ackbar is the obvious alternative here (had the film opted to have him survive).

I'm also probably venting my irritation at how a lot of peoples' (not you) hostility to Holdo seems to stem from "Waaahhhh, it should have been Ackbar in command!" Because fans tend to hate anything new, especially if that something new is seen as replacing something old.

Personally, I do think Ackbar should have been in command, if only to add a bit of diversity to the cast. As is, the movie is mostly just humans and more humans. Chewbacca does very little until the very end, and besides him the only alien I can think of off-hand who has any real effect on the plot is the guy who calls the cops on Finn and Rose.

Star Wars has historically been predominantly human, particularly with the Empire being human supremacist, but several of its most memorable set pieces have been places with a wide variety of weird-looking aliens, like the Mos Eisley Cantina or Jabba's Palace. I remember Canto Bight having several aliens, but I can't really remember most of them because most everyone there was dressed the same, so it still looked pretty homogeneous.

[Galvatron]

Am I a misogynist or a xenophile for preferring Ackbar over Holdo?

[CaoCao]

You're the last person that could say that.

Oh yeah, play the victim.

You're the one who started off by insulting anyone who disagrees with you here. And you'll note I'm not throwing these accusations or insults at anyone but you.

You have been, almost from the onset.

No, Holdo hadn't been in command too long when that happened.

Why? Because you arbitrarily say so? The bit with Rose happened more or less right after Holdo takes command in the film.

If you were actually reading what I'm typing, instead of blindingly attacking, you would realize I meant "Holdo, at that point, had no blame about people trying to escape".

It's a clear a sign that there is a problem to be addressed. They are all volunteers that, up to that point, had been on unsanctioned activity (by their government, the New Republic), not drafted civilians or half hearted career military.

It shows that the FO managed to scare them, and they needed some form of reassurance.

No doubt, but I question weather Holdo was in a position to be aware of the full extent of the problem, or to address it more than she did, given the circumstances. Or, for that matter, that more than a small minority of the crew were feeling mutinous.

Nor do I feel that any of that justifies a mutiny.

They are being chased, and attritioned, with low fuel. It's her job to be aware of that. The movie tells us everything happens in the span of around 18 hours, with morale dropping right at the beginning.

He got the dreadnought and was demoted for insubordination, not incompetence.

It is very clear that Leia's objection was to both the insubordination and the loss of an entire bomber squadron (the only one they had, to boot).

And? The bombers, the way they made them, were useless against the Resurgents or the Supremacy. I understand Leia's concern was the loss of life.

He asked for a plan more than once. And yes, she had every reason to tell him.

No. No she didn't.

Do you really believe that an admiral is obligated to give their battle plans to an insubordinate captain who's just been demoted, in a situation where they have every reason to believe there is a spy, after he has just publicly questioned their authority in the middle of a crisis? Of course not. No remotely informed and intelligent person would think that, if they put any thought into the matter.

I really do not know what to attribute this to if not gender bias: that if a mere woman is in command, she must justify her competence and authority to an extent that would never be asked otherwise.

Whatever else anyone thinks of the film, Holdo, Poe, or my arguments, can we put this bit of idiocy to rest right now, and all agree that Holdo had no obligation to tell Poe a damn thing?

No we can't, that's the crux of the problem. Poe is the one that took out the dreadnought and Starkiller base (that is, he saved the whole Resistance twice).

About Admirals, no they don't need to reveal the plans to everyone. They need to let on enough so that commanders know there is one. She didn't need to explain everything to Poe. And that's in a democratic state's military. In a voluntary resistance / rebellion, the chain of command is made out of trust, rather than rank. The type of military that works as you say is that of a totalitarian regime, like the FO (which is why Hux doesn't have to deal with mutinies).

You mean the others that mutinied with him? Because even the bridge crew was in on the mutiny.

I only saw a handful of people on-screen actively involved in the mutiny. Holdo could never have retaken the ship if the entire crew was actively against her.

You want to portray this as a popular uprising against Holdo, you justify it.

Holdo didn't retake the ship, Leia did. We only see her assistant helping her. Clearly, for someone with the highest ranking, she had 0 support.

Poe is still the wing commander (even when there's no longer a fighter wing), he is ex-New Republic officer and he is chosen by Leia as his successor. But if you want to nitpick, there is no scene where they straight tell the hierarchy.

Demanding you back up your claims when they have a direct bearing on the subject being debated is not a "nitpick", jackass.

Poe's a captain who just got disciplined for violating orders and getting a bunch of people killed, and follows it up with more insubordination in a crisis.

Holdo owes him nothing but a trip to the brig.

Yeap, it's a nitpick. The movie never stopped to give us the org. chart of the Resistance. By choosing him as her successor, Leia shows his the second in command.

About the brig, she could of have and I wouldn't complain. But she should ultimately reveal there is a plan in the face of the morale drop that was happening.

You're using hindsight here. The rest of the crew didn't know there was a plan,

Prove it. Prove that she told no one. Prove that they were all ignorant, even as they were loading the transports. Prove that it would have made a damn bit of difference if she had told them all sooner, given that Poe mutinied after he knew the transports were being loaded. In fact, IIRC, because he knew the transports were being loaded.

And in any case, my point stands that the plan would have in all probability worked fine, without Poe's interference plus bad luck. Which is certainly a point against Holdo being incompetent.

If she had told anyone aside from her assistant, Poe would have never been able to mutiny. The transport bit is explained in the movie. It's explained it was a bad move to use unshielded transports (don't throw technobabble about stealth).

the "stealth" ships (they are actually not stealth, only some technobabble about engine baffling or something) nor a nearby planet. If you want to use Holdo's plan, then you need her to, at least, tell her crew there is one. Which she didn't.

Prove it. And prove that it would have made a damn bit of difference if she had, given that Poe mutinied after he knew about the transports.

But since you are saying stealth isn't actually stealth, and actually denying that there is a nearby planet when the entire last act of the film takes place there, I don't think we can attach much weight to anything that you say.

Prove what? That they were common transports with engine baffling made by Rose? That is the canon explanation. Do you know what stealth is? He mutinied beacuse he thought the transports were visible to the FO and they were going to be sitting ducks. Which they were once another technobabble magic uncloacked them.

The planet and base were only known by Holdo (and, maybe her assistant) and Leia. Do you read what you type?

No, it's not a fucking gender cliche, were she a man, I would also call him Pinky. Hell, I even recall Yoda being call Greenie. Her unfitness to her position is not based on gender. Hux is unfit for his position as well, even moreso than Holdo.

Nice of you to acknowledge that, but calling a female leader "Pinky" (evoking her appearance and gender clichés) to belittle her is absolutely sexist. If you did not intend it as such, that merely shows that you were being an ignorant idiot, rather than malicious.

Oh stop the act. And don't dodge the fact that Hux is being called bumbling fool by the most charitable (which is far worst than Pinky). No one made a case of him being talk down for being a male.

Back on the discussion, it's not just Poe that mutinies, only her assistant is on her side. She never tries to talk it out, just shuts her mouth and lets everything play out.

Most of the crew, to all appearances, took no part, but just sat it out or got on with their jobs. If only Holdo's assistant was on her side against the entire rest of the crew, she'd never have taken the ship back.

Also, just ignore that Leia was on her side.

She never did, Leia did. And yes, she was on her side. But we are talking about the beginning of the mutiny, when Leia was still unconcious.

DJ knew about the plan because she never tried to get anyone to trust her in the first place. If she said there was a plan, then the communication where DJ overhears the shuttle business would not have happened. For Poe and the rest of the crew, she was leading them to the slaughter (and there was ample evidence of that).

There was no solid evidence of that other than the assumption that she is unfit.

She lost 2/3 of the fleet and they were running on fumes. Solid enough.

The entire point of the subplot was for the audience to believe she was a traitor that hated Poe, so it could be subverted to show she was one of the good guys and actually liked him. And be a device for Poe's character growth, by learning to stick to the hierarchy

Not "learning to stick to the hierarchy". Learning not to take knee-jerk risks unilaterally.

And while I expected her to be either incompetent or a traitor until the reveal, it was more because I'm used to that cliché being flogged in Hollywood, than because it actually made sense. No doubt the audience was intended to believe that, but not because it makes sense based on Holdo's actions. Rather, because the film was showing us things from Poe's perspective (a protagonist we had already gotten to know and sympathize with), and because it was playing to genre expectations.

I your own post, to which I replied that, you said:

In no reasonable person's mind was Holdo "a probable traitor". But good for you for letting the entire point of the subplot fly over your miniscule head.

Guess you only said that to throw an insult. Your concession is accepted.

On a side note, the subversion could have worked, if they gave a really strong reason why she couldn't even say she had a plan. That way, both Holdo and Poe would have been right. But they didn't and the subversion's result is this.

(which I'm not really sure is that good of a message, but oh well).

Yeah, you should always rebel, even when there is a good reason not to! Ron Paul 2020!

Huh? Blindly following people is not a good thing. Example: Waco.

You don't understand what a stong female character is. In fact, what a strong character is. Disney's Lucasfilm group doesn't too, mind you. Leia, Padme, Ahsoka, Mara Jade, even Vestara (and all of them from SW universe) are strong female characters. Of them, only Ahsoka took more episodes to grow, but that's because of the format. The rest worked on their first movie/book and for a reason: there were good writers behind them.

[Galvatron]

You don't understand what a stong female character is. In fact, what a strong character is. Disney's Lucasfilm group doesn't too, mind you. Leia, Padme, Ahsoka, Mara Jade, even Vestara (and all of them from SW universe) are strong female characters. Of them, only Ahsoka took more episodes to grow, but that's because of the format. The rest worked on their first movie/book and for a reason: there were good writers behind them.

While we're on that particular subect, let's not forget Mon Mothma, Hera Syndulla, Sabine Wren and Asajj Ventress. Given the time constraints, I also thought Jyn Erso was done justice and I've always been a defender of Rey's against the Mary Sue complainers.

Doesn't that give me enough credibility to finally level some criticism against just ONE female character? Holdo was like a rebel version of Admiral Daala.

[The Romulan Republic]

You don't understand what a stong female character is. In fact, what a strong character is. Disney's Lucasfilm group doesn't too, mind you. Leia, Padme, Ahsoka, Mara Jade, even Vestara (and all of them from SW universe) are strong female characters. Of them, only Ahsoka took more episodes to grow, but that's because of the format. The rest worked on their first movie/book and for a reason: there were good writers behind them.

While we're on that particular subect, let's not forget Mon Mothma, Hera Syndulla, Sabine Wren and Asajj Ventress. Given the time constraints, I also thought Jyn Erso was done justice and I've always been a defender of Rey's against the Mary Sue complainers.

Doesn't that give me enough credibility to finally level some criticism against just ONE female character? Holdo was like a rebel version of Admiral Daala.

No one here is saying that you have to like Holdo because she's a woman, or that you're a misogynist if you don't like her. Certain people keep trying to attribute that argument to me, and to others who defend the character, but it absolutely is not what I'm saying.

Some people (mostly off of this board) have certainly attacked Holdo for sexist reasons, or (in CaoCao and Patroklos's case) using mildly-sexist rhetoric. But anything I say to or about those individuals should not be taken as applying to everyone who criticizes Holdo. You have no need to prove your credibility on this point, because to the best of my recollection, you have said nothing to indicate a sexist bias.

That said, I think that some of the criticism of Holdo are vastly exaggerated. There may be many reasons for that, ranging from gender bias to OT fanboyism to unintended readings of the film to simple subjective personal dislike. But I don't think her performance is significantly worse than that of various other SF commanders who are much more positively regarded.

In any case, Daala comparisons are unfair, because Daala was a brutal lunatic as well as of questionable competency. If anything, Holdo's errors come from not being ruthless enough.

[The Romulan Republic]

Fair enough. I'm just pointing out that given the situation, I'm not sure anyone else would have handled it better, and Ackbar is the obvious alternative here (had the film opted to have him survive).

I'm also probably venting my irritation at how a lot of peoples' (not you) hostility to Holdo seems to stem from "Waaahhhh, it should have been Ackbar in command!" Because fans tend to hate anything new, especially if that something new is seen as replacing something old.

Personally, I do think Ackbar should have been in command, if only to add a bit of diversity to the cast. As is, the movie is mostly just humans and more humans. Chewbacca does very little until the very end, and besides him the only alien I can think of off-hand who has any real effect on the plot is the guy who calls the cops on Finn and Rose.

Star Wars has historically been predominantly human, particularly with the Empire being human supremacist, but several of its most memorable set pieces have been places with a wide variety of weird-looking aliens, like the Mos Eisley Cantina or Jabba's Palace. I remember Canto Bight having several aliens, but I can't really remember most of them because most everyone there was dressed the same, so it still looked pretty homogeneous.

You know, that's a fair point about there not being enough aliens in the film, although you have forgotten a couple who had a significant effect on the plot: Maz (understandable, given that it was one brief com. chat), and Yoda.

No, it seemed that Poe worshipped the ground Leia walked on. Anyway, it sounds a bit like nepotism.

I was referring to when Poe flat-out ignored Leia's order to not attack the dreadnought. The decision that got him demoted.

As to nepotism... are you referring to Poe, or Holdo? I don't think you can reasonably conclude that Holdo's rank is due to nepotism simply because she's a friend of Leia's. I raised that point simply to illustrate that an extremely experienced and respected leader appeared to think well of her capabilities. Nor do I think Poe's rank can be accounted for simply by nepotism. Its likely that both he and Holdo benefited from their friendship with Leia, yes- but both clearly also demonstrated personal ability beyond that. And personal weaknesses.

You could probably make a strong case that Poe and Holdo are mirrors/counterparts to each other, actually- they are both friends/proteges of Leia's, both well-regarded and experienced commanders, but seem to have opposing flaws- while Poe is too reckless, Holdo is arguably too cautious. Although Poe's failures are the more glaring.

I would have loved to, if they hadn't made a pointless scene of Maz in a barfight while fighting. It establishes that they have galactic communications, but for some reason, they don't use them until they're Planetside. If that scene was cut out, I'd be more willing to suspend my disbelief about the Resistance's lack of communication ability. But hey, kids like Maz, so we better include a scene of her to boost toy sales.

I'll agree that this is probably the weakest bit of plotting in the film. That said, given a choice between multiple implausibilities, I'd rather pick the one that does not imply that Holdo is literally mentally handicapped, given that the film clearly does not intend to portray her as such.

As to Maz, offhand I'd guess that Lupita Nyong'o had a contract for multiple films, so they had to include her.

Except for the dismal morale, mutinies, and desertions, which may or may not be commonplace.

Leaving aside that no one has actually demonstrated that Poe's dissatisfaction was general amongst the crew, that the security objection to widely divulging the plan is entirely valid, and that we have every reason from on-screen evidence to believe that divulging it would have made no difference to Poe's actions.

Will you address those points?

Even if she tells them a false plan, it would give her crews something to do and focus on that rather than panicking and either mutinying, or abandoning ship.

A false plan is indeed a good idea, if only to throw off any possible spies. But considering that finding out part of her actual plan is what prompted Flyboy McJackass to mutiny, I'm not sure it would have done much good.

He objected because she came off, both in-universe and out, as way over her head and unwilling to entertain other options. I'm reasonably sure Poe wouldn't have mutinied if she gave him something to do that wasn't just tweedle our thumbs until we die. Giving people busywork that might even pay off later is a common tactic in a crisis. Telling them to shut up and act as if you're doing something will cause a crisis, as we see in a film.

We don't see how Holdo interacts with the rest of the crew. We see only how she interacts with Poe, who she had no reason to humor or regard as anything but a trouble-maker undermining her authority in a crisis.

As compared to losing all three and only having what they squeezed onto the Falcon, then yes, that's better.

That's arguing with the benefit of hindsight. Its not as though Holdo's plan was "Lose the ships plus all but about a dozen people." Her plan was "Sacrifice the ships to save the people." And we have every reason to believe that it could have worked if not for Poe's plan, a turncoat, and bad luck.

Or alternatively, sacrificing the other ships if they're more expendable in a fireship method as she eventually did with the Raddus to evacuate to safety.

This came up before, and its debatable weather those much smaller ships would have made a significant dent in the First Order's fleet.

And, again, this risks leaving the Raddus completely without anti-starfighter cover.

Or have them tear off to a gas station, refuel, and then fill up the Raddus.

I like this idea, but I can think of two major objections:

1. The ships might not have time to return before the Raddus was disabled.

2. Again, you lose the anti-fighter cover.

Or having one ship act as a courier for other cells, fleets, or governments, to find reinforcements, and ride back with the cavalry.

This is actually probably the best alternative I've heard yet. It still has the issues described above reg. time and fighter cover, but it provides a back-up means of calling for help, and at least doesn't completely strip the fighter cover.

But you could go over Kirk's, or Picard's, or Thrawn's plan with a fine-tooth-comb and find alternatives that might or might not have been better. The point is not that Holdo's plan was the best of all possible plans, beyond a shadow of a doubt. The point is that it does not, to me, immediately qualify as gross incompetence by the standards of TV/film SF.

I also question weather the idea of the distress call was ever to try and beat the First Order in a pitched battle in the Crait system. More on that shortly.

Point is, they had lots of options besides running until we die of lack of fuel.

Lots of possibilities, but I can (and have) raised serious objects to each and every one of them.

I'm not attached to the character. I do like his cereal however.

Heh.

See above. Our heroes use the phone, why didn't she? The only reason is Doylist, that they wanted to reveal that everyone in the galaxy told them to fuck off for the third act.

Well, again, I acknowledge that this is weak plotting on the film's part. I simply prefer to try, when forced to pick between multiple implausible explanations, to pick one that doesn't blatantly contravene the obvious intent of the filmmakers and facilitate character-bashing.

Watsonian, the best option is that they were broadcasting for the entire battle, and Holdo was counting on reinforcements coming to pick them up, not knowing she was dooming them all to becoming the Donner party because they would be unable to leave the solar system.

I actually like that.

Maybe the ships have a less powerful or less secure transmitter, as well.

See my points about going to places with reinforcements and allies, making a fight at a starbase or whatever.

Making a stand anywhere would likely be idiotic, unless someone shows up with a sector fleet's worth of capital ships.

I don't think the plan was to make a stand in the Crait system. It was to hide and then send out broadcasts to try to incite a galaxy-wide insurgency (and hopefully someone to come help them evacuate.

Which seemed to be Holdo's plan, strand them all on a planet and hope for a ride home, or starve to death if that doesn't happen. This way, with going somewhere else where they can hide or choose the terrain, they at least have a chance, or work towards getting a fair fight.

The difference is that she was sacrificing the ships to buy time to evacuate to a survivable world with a base and communications equipment, rather than stranding them in an asteroid field in the vaccum of space.

I'm tired of Star Wars making the only way to be utterly free from tyranny once you've won is to put your head on the chopping block by total disarmament, or by utter corruption making the military worthless. Freedom, peace, and victory don't have to mean throwing your gun away when the enemy wants to shoot you and is pointing a gun at you.

I'm... pretty sure that's the whole point of the Resistance. TFA implicitly agrees with what you are saying, here.

None of that means that the New Republic deserved genocide, however.

Star Trek has the UFP as soft, gentle, and good, but they still keep their fleet ready if the Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons, or whoever strikes. Sure, the Borg gave them a black eye, and the Dominion kicked them in the teeth, but they still held their ground and took appropriate action when things looked tough.

You know, this may be the first time I've seen someone accuse Star Wars of being more pacifist than Star Trek.

Andromeda has the Systems Commonwealth, which openly embraced community, democracy, freedom, tolerance, diplomacy, etc. But when they were betrayed by the Nietzchean, and received a sizable sucker punch, it still took years to take them down and they gave as good as they got, destroying Nietzchean dominance over the three galaxies.

In Star Wars, as soon as you support a free society, you chug stupid pills and totally disarm while in a cold war against your former oppressors, only fighting a proxy war with the FO and the Resistance.

Again, that is pretty much the opposite message of what the situation in TFA seems to imply. I don't think the films are portraying the Republic's approach as right.

But "mistaken" does not mean "deserves to be exterminated". We aren't Daleks here.

And in Legends, the grand moral was, sure, liberty is cool, but you'll all die due to political bickering while the Vong tear apart the galaxy. Maybe Palpatine being in charge would have been better for the galaxy as a whole?

Ugg, I hate the "Palpatine was better bullshit."

The New Republic was, at worst, corrupt and incompetent. Palpatine's regime was a genocidal, slaving theocracy. And in Legends, didn't he aim to turn everyone into basically a Dark Side puppet?

It shows that the people behind the scenes are afraid to change the setting into something different, so that they have to the good guys be total idiots to justify ripping away all the good things our heroes did in the previous films.

Oh, I do think the management is afraid of change. But are you surprised, when the fanbase tears into them like a rabid dog whenever they do anything that isn't sufficiently like the OT?

If stranding everyone and hoping for a rescue is a purpose, sure. Otherwise, they wasted what was left of the Resistance on a failed Gambit as they slowly starve to death.

Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe those crystal dogs are edible.

Heh. I don't think its a huge stretch to assume that there were enough rations on the transport to last them until they could find one ship in the galaxy willing to transport them once the First Order left believing they were all dead.

Again, the plan was not "scuttle the ships and wait to die". It was "sacrifice the ships so that the personnel can live".

See my disgust above for their twisting everything so that it can be evil machine vs underdogs again. The whole universe has to bend over backwards in how the interstellar politics work for this situation to make any sense.

I don't disagree that TFA is too close to the OT in that respect. But this is getting off the topic of Holdo's characterization.

There's a difference between, "They only lost at the end due to a miraculous bit of arrogance on the enemy's part and a hail Mary", and "Our entire plan rests on the enemy making one mistake after another over and over again, so much so that we might as well just sit back and watch them shoot themselves in the head due to how incompetent they are."

Yavin seems more like the former, Raddus seems pretty much like the latter. It's a lot to risk on no one noticing the planet, and the First Order not being bloodthirsty enough to blast it anyway, just to be sure.

Who said anything about not noticing the planet? The plan didn't depend on them not noticing the planet. It depended on them not noticing the stealthed ships, and (presumably) assuming everyone had gone down with the Raddus.

See, this is what I mean about people attacking "mistakes" by the filmmakers that aren't there. You are debating a film that's way stupider than the one that actually exists.

That said, I don't disagree that Hux is a moron. But that doesn't make Holdo incompetent. She would in all probability have fooled him entirely if not for the factors discussed above, which she had no knowledge of and no way of really anticipating.

Because both sides were that incompetent. If this was a stand alone film, it might be justifiable, but this is showing such bad tactics in the setting that they might as well explicit explain that this is the dregs of both sides, as the professional military kept the competent officers.

Except not really. Or, at least, you are severely overstating your case. I have raised multiple objections that you have not refuted, both to claims you have made that are not well-supported by on-screen evidence, and to the alternative plans you have suggested.

As for a more chess match film? (snip)

That's not the worst outline, but its almost a completely different film. And I don't know that you could easily have a battle on that scale and of that complexity justice without undermining the Rey and Luke plot. It might also be hard to square such First Order competency with their portrayal in TFA. You kind of almost have to have brute force First Order being outmaneuvered by a smaller but smarter Resistance force, at this point.

Also, I like how the hacker thing worked, and I don't think it needs to be followed up on in the next film. It was a nice little jab at the idiot "both sides" mentality, without bogging down the film with a heavy-handed message.

[FaxModem1]

No, it seemed that Poe worshipped the ground Leia walked on. Anyway, it sounds a bit like nepotism.

I was referring to when Poe flat-out ignored Leia's order to not attack the dreadnought. The decision that got him demoted.

As to nepotism... are you referring to Poe, or Holdo? I don't think you can reasonably conclude that Holdo's rank is due to nepotism simply because she's a friend of Leia's. I raised that point simply to illustrate that an extremely experienced and respected leader appeared to think well of her capabilities. Nor do I think Poe's rank can be accounted for simply by nepotism. Its likely that both he and Holdo benefited from their friendship with Leia, yes- but both clearly also demonstrated personal ability beyond that. And personal weaknesses.

I mean their lack of military professionalism, which is fitting in a volunteer militia, but militias also work by bringing people you know personally in, regardless of capability if they bring something else to the table, such as ships, guns, troops, etc.

We don't get Holdo as either a brilliant tactician, or someone who leads by example, so we're left with aristocratic dilettante.

And considering how the Disney canon portrays the Rebellion leadership, as a bunch of aristocratic nobility and paperpushers sending their people to die, and not themselves (see Rogue One and Rebels), it seemed like more of the same.

You could probably make a strong case that Poe and Holdo are mirrors/counterparts to each other, actually- they are both friends/proteges of Leia's, both well-regarded and experienced commanders, but seem to have opposing flaws- while Poe is too reckless, Holdo is arguably too cautious. Although Poe's failures are the more glaring.

As others have noted in the thread, Poe's actions took out a First Order dreadnought for the cost of a wing of bombers. Considering how poor the ranges on Star Wars ships are thanks to this film, it's plausible that the dreadnought had better range with it's weaponry, and saved the Resistance's flotilla.

Or not, maybe it would have made no difference in the 18 hour slow crawl through empty space. Or, just like Holdo being unable to think about long term assets while in a ship, Poe is too dumb to think about long term survival of their assets, same way that Holdo was.

I would have loved to, if they hadn't made a pointless scene of Maz in a barfight while fighting. It establishes that they have galactic communications, but for some reason, they don't use them until they're Planetside. If that scene was cut out, I'd be more willing to suspend my disbelief about the Resistance's lack of communication ability. But hey, kids like Maz, so we better include a scene of her to boost toy sales.

I'll agree that this is probably the weakest bit of plotting in the film. That said, given a choice between multiple implausibilities, I'd rather pick the one that does not imply that Holdo is literally mentally handicapped, given that the film clearly does not intend to portray her as such.

As to Maz, offhand I'd guess that Lupita Nyong'o had a contract for multiple films, so they had to include her.

Hence why in my version, Rose and Finn go to Maz and she's one of their stops.

Except for the dismal morale, mutinies, and desertions, which may or may not be commonplace.

Leaving aside that no one has actually demonstrated that Poe's dissatisfaction was general amongst the crew, that the security objection to widely divulging the plan is entirely valid, and that we have every reason from on-screen evidence to believe that divulging it would have made no difference to Poe's actions.

The Raddus's bridge crew, those who would be able to see the whole board, joined in the mutiny. Either Holdo wasn't briefing the bridge on what they were supposed to be doing besides kissing their butts goodbye, I mean, 'having hope', or they viewed her plan as so suicidal that they joined in. That, and while we don't have a scene of the entire ship's crew running to the escape pods, we can infer from Rose's duties and comments that it was a sizable enough problem for them to put non-security people guarding the escape pods.

Will you address those points?

Even if she tells them a false plan, it would give her crews something to do and focus on that rather than panicking and either mutinying, or abandoning ship.

A false plan is indeed a good idea, if only to throw off any possible spies. But considering that finding out part of her actual plan is what prompted Flyboy McJackass to mutiny, I'm not sure it would have done much good.

He objected because she came off, both in-universe and out, as way over her head and unwilling to entertain other options. I'm reasonably sure Poe wouldn't have mutinied if she gave him something to do that wasn't just tweedle our thumbs until we die. Giving people busywork that might even pay off later is a common tactic in a crisis. Telling them to shut up and act as if you're doing something will cause a crisis, as we see in a film.

We don't see how Holdo interacts with the rest of the crew. We see only how she interacts with Poe, who she had no reason to humor or regard as anything but a trouble-maker undermining her authority in a crisis.

Or, you know, it would have given him something to do. It's hard to plan a mutiny when you're busy keeping morale up, finding allies, repairing systems, plotting places to resupply, etc. As I said below, it's basic crisis management, in the event of a battle, natural disaster, etc, you keep people busy, especially when they're panicking. That Holdo doesn't do this presents her as more of a paperpusher who has never had to lead troops before.

Here's a tip for you. If someone is panicking in an emergency, you're in the leadership position, and because they don't think you have a plan, they are going to react as if you don't have a plan. You should instead make them feel valuable, and give them a job that they can handle, so that they are both A. Out of the way, and B. Being productive.

This is why, in the military, in Crisis situations, if the head leadership person on site is unable to take command, the person next in line does so. In fact, if people in command know they aren't fit for duty, they're supposed to step aside. Holdo came off as not having a plan, so Poe relieved her of duty, as he had a plan.

His plan was very flawed and blew up in his face, but he(and the bridge crew) knew he had one, and thought she didn't. The fact that she didn't correct anyone on this is why she was facing her own crew members pointing guns at her.

If Poe still flies off the handle because he's an idiot, then he gets tazed like Finn did, as everyone else will listen.

As compared to losing all three and only having what they squeezed onto the Falcon, then yes, that's better.

That's arguing with the benefit of hindsight. Its not as though Holdo's plan was "Lose the ships plus all but about a dozen people." Her plan was "Sacrifice the ships to save the people." And we have every reason to believe that it could have worked if not for Poe's plan, a turncoat, and bad luck.

Her plan was stupid, and relied on the First Order not doing a pincer tactic, their stealth transports actually working, their stealth tech being up to snuff against the better equipped First Order sensors, the First Order wondering why there aren't any bodies as they sweep the Raddus debris, or not sweeping the debris at all, not noticing the settlement on the planet, the engine trail to the planet, not sweeping the planet at all, Leia's big broadcasting ring, etc.

Or alternatively, sacrificing the other ships if they're more expendable in a fireship method as she eventually did with the Raddus to evacuate to safety.

This came up before, and its debatable weather those much smaller ships would have made a significant dent in the First Order's fleet.

And, again, this risks leaving the Raddus completely without anti-starfighter cover.

They were without Starfighter cover for 18 hours, they could apparently risk it. Though again, that's if the First Order doesn't just trap them in a pincer and kills them all.

Or have them tear off to a gas station, refuel, and then fill up the Raddus.

I like this idea, but I can think of two major objections:

1. The ships might not have time to return before the Raddus was disabled.

Holdo's plan relies on being able to survive without fighters for about a day, so this point is moot.

2. Again, you lose the anti-fighter cover.

See above.

Or having one ship act as a courier for other cells, fleets, or governments, to find reinforcements, and ride back with the cavalry.

This is actually probably the best alternative I've heard yet. It still has the issues described above reg. time and fighter cover, but it provides a back-up means of calling for help, and at least doesn't completely strip the fighter cover.

But you could go over Kirk's, or Picard's, or Thrawn's plan with a fine-tooth-comb and find alternatives that might or might not have been better. The point is not that Holdo's plan was the best of all possible plans, beyond a shadow of a doubt. The point is that it does not, to me, immediately qualify as gross incompetence by the standards of TV/film SF.

I also question weather the idea of the distress call was ever to try and beat the First Order in a pitched battle in the Crait system. More on that shortly.

Note that this is Poe's plan in principle, not in practice. Instead of picking up one hacker, based off the rumors of a bartender, they go to a New Republic base or whatever, and grab hackers in addition to a fleet.

Note that Poe is an idiot, Holdo is an idiot, Hux is an idiot, Finn and Rose are idiots etc. It's what TVTropes calls an Idiot Plot.

And I've pointed out why those are minor concerns, or things that are miniscule compared to 'Hopefully someone hears us and gives a damn, otherwise we're eating Ackbar's corpse with dipping sauce first.'

Again, idiot plot here, and internally inconsistent.

I hope everyone likes Calamari with crystal dog because Holdo AND Poe didn't send one of their ships to a gas station to fill up and bring extra back for the other two ships. Or extra ships.

Regarding only going straight to planet and nothing else:

Again, extra Ackbar servings for everybody, because they gave up on refueling, finding allies, going to a well defended New Republic system, etc, on the off chance that they get picked up before their broadcast is detected and they get killed for revealing their location, or before they run out of food.

Regarding running somewhere safer:

Hence the refuel, or go to a well defended system options. If those aren't feasible, hiding in a place where you can keep your medical frigate in case of medical emergency or not gamble everything on the First Order being idiots.

Regarding New Republic idiocy:

Okay. I am NOT advocating genocide. Okay?

What I'm saying is that Mon Mothma's disarmament was asking for trouble, and is akin to South Korea completely disarming it's military after the Korean war if they had no allies whatsoever, and everyone going along with it. Anyone who thinks that utterly disarming next to an aggressive military neighbor to the point that a terrorist group can threaten you militarily shows that you don't care about your people's survival, and are asking for death. And is so hard to believe that suspensions of disbelief gets broken, and one has to ask if the people behind the films are trying to imply that the people siding with freedom are wrong, because in such a situation, they'll be horribly killed. That's what the sequel trilogy seems to be suggesting, that or that it's all pointless, as it's all controlled by the rich people who gamble away the money while the poor plebes fight and die.

Regarding Holdo's plan to wait it out:

See above on how that's riding on a lot to go right, and dooms them all if even one thing goes wrong., Like for example, being told that they're on their own, which happened in the movie, and the First Order having a few brain cells to sweep the area and look for survivors on the nearest habitable planet.

Who said anything about not noticing the planet? The plan didn't depend on them not noticing the planet. It depended on them not noticing the stealthed ships, and (presumably) assuming everyone had gone down with the Raddus.

See, this is what I mean about people attacking "mistakes" by the filmmakers that aren't there. You are debating a film that's way stupider than the one that actually exists.

That said, I don't disagree that Hux is a moron. But that doesn't make Holdo incompetent. She would in all probability have fooled him entirely if not for the factors discussed above, which she had no knowledge of and no way of really anticipating.

See above on how many mistakes Hux's flotilla would have to make in order for this to work. If Poe hadn't killed the only competent officer aboard the dreadnought at the beginning, maybe her plan would have gone up in smoke due to him executing a pincer, or searching the planet, just to be safe. It rides on her enemy making a lot of mistakes.

Except not really. Or, at least, you are severely overstating your case. I have raised multiple objections that you have not refuted, both to claims you have made that are not well-supported by on-screen evidence, and to the alternative plans you have suggested.

I hope I have properly addressed them now, and show you why they needed better planning.

Tl:Dr: Holdo's entire plan requires that the enemy fleet is run by absolute morons, and that other people in the Galaxy care about them enough to do something. Otherwise, they are either blown up, or starve to death.

That's not the worst outline, but its almost a completely different film. And I don't know that you could easily have a battle on that scale and of that complexity justice without undermining the Rey and Luke plot. It might also be hard to square such First Order competency with their portrayal in TFA. You kind of almost have to have brute force First Order being outmaneuvered by a smaller but smarter Resistance force, at this point.

Like I said, I was spitballing, and it doesn't rely on an idiot plot to work. Yes, most of the sequel trilogy's problems seem to rest on JJ Abrams and his lack of competent world building, but this wouldn't show just how bad those problems are and compound them, as TLJ did.

Also, I like how the hacker thing worked, and I don't think it needs to be followed up on in the next film. It was a nice little jab at the idiot "both sides" mentality, without bogging down the film with a heavy-handed message.

Your mileage may vary, as it made me think Holdo was being set up as a surprise villain who was profiting off the war due to her aristocratic look and demeanor towards working class people like Poe. And Star Wars was headed in a class warfare direction.

That may be why I dislike Holdo, she thematically comes across as a WWI officer, not caring about her troops' lives, more concerned with how pretty she looks,like while also showing similarly dressed people gambling away on casino world. Until at the last moment we find that it's a badly executed psych out, that she was a hero after all.

[FaxModem1]

Ghetto edit: doing quotes on a phone while the computer is in the shop makes quotes hard to do. I apologise for the formatting of the last post.

[The Romulan Republic]

You have been, almost from the onset.

Actually, I have pointedly not made such accusations against Fax_Modem1, or Galvatron, for example, despite their disagreeing with me on this topic.

So let's see... if I acknowledge that sexism is a factor in the overall controversy without accusing anyone specifically, I'm passive aggressive, dishonest, and accuse everyone who disagrees with me of being a bigot. If I do call out a specific person on a specific point, then I'm accusing everyone who disagrees with me of being a bigot.

Why not call it what it really is? A dishonest deflection tactic to try to discredit my arguments and silence any discussion of the role prejudice plays by ad hominem.

If you were actually reading what I'm typing, instead of blindingly attacking, you would realize I meant "Holdo, at that point, had no blame about people trying to escape".

If I misread you, my apologies.

Although this would seem to perhaps contradict the points elsewhere where you use the desertions as an argument against Holdo's leadership.

They are being chased, and attritioned, with low fuel. It's her job to be aware of that. The movie tells us everything happens in the span of around 18 hours, with morale dropping right at the beginning.

I believe this is the second time that you've claimed the entire film happened over 18 hours. I asked you before to cite evidence for that, since I don't recall a specific span of time being stated. Will you do so?

Though frankly, events happening over such a short time frame might actually be a point in Holdo's favor, as it suggests that she simply didn't have time to deal with every problem on board, given the situation and the limited resources she was working with (especially since moral collapsing to the point of mutiny that quickly would seem to strain credulity).

As to the overall situation faced by the Resistance, I don't disagree with anything that you just said. What I do question is weather there was anything more Holdo could reasonably have done under the circumstances that would have made a damn bit of difference to the moral situation, and weather the film shows the morale situation to be sufficiently bad that one would reasonably expect a mutiny to be imminent.

Remember, we don't see Holdo's interactions with everyone on board- mostly just Poe (and Leia, after Leia wakes up and the mutiny issue has been resolved). We don't know what percentage of the crew were demoralized or dissatisfied to the point of being inclined to desert or mutiny. We do know that Holdo was busy trying to survive the battle and organize an evacuation of a force she'd just taken command of after the leadership was decapitated, and that Poe finding out about what the plan was is what actually triggered the mutiny- not because there was no plan, but because Poe (a subordinate officer) decided unilaterally that his long shot plan was better than Holdo's, and that that made her a traitor.

As an aside, I suppose its only natural that sexists would take Poe's side, since not only is he a man trying to remove a female authority figure, but his whole attitude reeks of a profound sense of entitlement.

And? The bombers, the way they made them, were useless against the Resurgents or the Supremacy. I understand Leia's concern was the loss of life.

Then why did you claim that Poe was demoted simply for insubordination, and not for incompetence (ie getting people needlessly killed)?

And you are probably correct that the bombers would have been useless in that battle. But that's with the benefit of hindsight, which the characters in the film would not have had at the time Poe lost the bombers.

No we can't, that's the crux of the problem. Poe is the one that took out the dreadnought and Starkiller base (that is, he saved the whole Resistance twice).

He wouldn't have needed to save the Resistance from the dreadnought if they'd simply retreated when Leia ordered him to.

And being a war hero does not give you right to know every detail of your superior's plans, or to public confront them and question their leadership during a crisis. At least, I don't think it does. I'm not a soldier, but I'm pretty sure that's not how the chain of command works.

If you really think a just-demoted captain is entitled to demand details of battle plans from an admiral, and to publicly undermine her authority in a crisis, then I'm not sure why I or anyone else should take your arguments seriously.

About Admirals, no they don't need to reveal the plans to everyone. They need to let on enough so that commanders know there is one. She didn't need to explain everything to Poe. And that's in a democratic state's military. In a voluntary resistance / rebellion, the chain of command is made out of trust, rather than rank. The type of military that works as you say is that of a totalitarian regime, like the FO (which is why Hux doesn't have to deal with mutinies).

I'm fairly sure that its not just authoritarian regimes that expect officers not to be blatantly insubordinate. This is simply absurd.

And yes, a commander should share their plans with the officers who need to know those plans. We don't know what Holdo told everyone on board, though she clearly told the transport crews something at some point, and she told Poe eventually as well (more on that shortly). Poe didn't need to know. Moreover, you are again ignoring that when Poe found out some of the plan, that was what pushed him to mutiny. Meaning that we have every reason to believe that revealing the plan to Poe would have accomplished jack shit, except maybe to make the mutiny happen sooner.

Also- I don't think anyone would whine about how, say, Ackbar or Thrawn needed to explain that he had a plan because otherwise his crew would assume that he had none. It comes off as sexist (weather it is or not) because of the history of female leaders having a higher burden to "prove" their fitness than their male counterparts. Though there may be other reasons for such favoritism, of course.

Holdo didn't retake the ship, Leia did. We only see her assistant helping her. Clearly, for someone with the highest ranking, she had 0 support.

Leia and Holdo both had a hand in it.

And we also don't see everyone in the hanger joining in against Holdo when she breaks free. Just a handful of people. That does not indicate that the crew was united against her.

Yeap, it's a nitpick. The movie never stopped to give us the org. chart of the Resistance. By choosing him as her successor, Leia shows his the second in command.

She "chooses him as her successor", if you mean handing off leadership to him on Crait, at the end of the film, after he's shown that he's learned from his mistakes, and when all the other higher-ups and indeed all but about a dozen people are dead. That does not prove that he was her chosen successor earlier in the film (when she demoted him), nor that he was second after Holdo in the overall chain of command.

Pointing out when you are making false or unproven claims that have a bearing on the topic being discussed is not nitpicking.

About the brig, she could of have and I wouldn't complain.

Well, then we agree on something.

But she should ultimately reveal there is a plan in the face of the morale drop that was happening.

She did, eventually, and it did worse than zero good.

We also have no way of knowing (unless its in EU material) what she told people other than Poe.

If she had told anyone aside from her assistant, Poe would have never been able to mutiny.

That is an absurd assumption. Especially considering that Poe knew the plan when he decided to mutiny.

The transport bit is explained in the movie. It's explained it was a bad move to use unshielded transports (don't throw technobabble about stealth).

Its not a "bad move' if its all they had, and Poe's ranting is not an objective explanation.

Also, the transports were sufficiently concealed that the First Order missed them until tipped off to look for them by a turncoat, and trying to hand wave canon evidence as "technobabble" because it doesn't support your position is dishonest debating.

Prove what?

That Holdo told no one about the plan.

That they were common transports with engine baffling made by Rose? That is the canon explanation. Do you know what stealth is?

Now you're the one nitpicking. I am using "stealth", obviously, as a short-hand way of saying "effectively concealed from detection." Which they were. That is what is materially significant to the argument. Quibbling about how you define the word "stealth" is just muddying the waters.

He mutinied beacuse he thought the transports were visible to the FO and they were going to be sitting ducks. Which they were once another technobabble magic uncloacked them.

Which would have been no problem at all if not for DJ being a turncoat, which wouldn't have been an issue if not for Poe running his own risky side plan without consulting Holdo.

The planet and base were only known by Holdo (and, maybe her assistant) and Leia. Do you read what you type?

The base was secret. The notion that the crew cannot look at the scanners (or out the fucking window) and see that there is a planet in the system, and would therefore naturally assume that Holdo is just leading them to die, is what I am questioning.

Oh stop the act.

Right, because you are so obviously correct that if anyone calls you out, it must just be an "act".

And don't dodge the fact that Hux is being called bumbling fool by the most charitable (which is far worst than Pinky).

This is a false equivalency. No one is questioning Hux being called incompetent, because the film shows him to be incompetent, and acknowledges him as such, in a way that it does not Holdo.

Saying "There's no double standard in calling Holdo incompetent if you also call Hux incompetent, because Holdo is just as incompetent" is circular argument. You're basically trying to use your assertion to validate itself.

No one made a case of him being talk down for being a male.

Because there is not the same history of men having their leadership skills questioned for being men. And because the film clearly portrays Hux as inept, and clearly intended for him to be perceived as such.

She never did, Leia did.

Again, they did so jointly.

And could Leia have done so solo if the crew overwhelmingly favored the mutiny? I honestly don't know.

And yes, she was on her side. But we are talking about the beginning of the mutiny, when Leia was still unconcious.

Very few people joined in on either side. At most, that shows that most of the crew wasn't willing to risk their lives at that point for either Holdo or Poe. Or possibly that they were more concerned with just doing their jobs and trying to stay alive.

I also think its telling that the most experienced and respected person in the fleet (Leia), one who later chooses Poe to take charge, backs Holdo up here.

She lost 2/3 of the fleet and they were running on fumes. Solid enough.

Saying she had lost two thirds of the fleet at that point is misleading, as it both ignores the fact that most of the crew was evacuated from at least one of those ships, and the relative value and size of the command ship compared to the two escorts.

And again, those ships were sacrificed to buy time for an evacuation.

I your own post, to which I replied that, you said:

In no reasonable person's mind was Holdo "a probable traitor". But good for you for letting the entire point of the subplot fly over your miniscule head.

Guess you only said that to throw an insult. Your concession is accepted.

As I said, I thought that they were setting Holdo up to be either a traitor or incompetent, not because it made sense, but because I'm used to the genre clichés. They were playing with audience expectations (and showing things predominantly from Poe's point of view), but that in no way proves that "Holdo is likely a traitor" was a reasonable conclusion in-universe.

On a side note, the subversion could have worked, if they gave a really strong reason why she couldn't even say she had a plan. That way, both Holdo and Poe would have been right. But they didn't and the subversion's result is this.

There is an obvious reason (the possibility of spies on board), in addition to the obvious "Poe was a demoted subordinate who was being insubordinate and had no need to know the plan".

That that reason was never stated in the film is a flaw in the script, in my opinion, but it does not prove that Holdo is incompetent in-universe.

But in neither circumstance would Poe have been "right" in any way, shape, or form. And again, it is an assumption that Holdo told no one that she had a plan. Just as you are still ignoring that when she told Poe her plan, that is when he responded by calling her a traitor and mutinying.

Huh? Blindly following people is not a good thing. Example: Waco.

Did I say that I support blind obedience under all circumstances? No. That's your straw man. I am a strong supporter of conscientious objection. I just don't think that it was warranted in this case, and that you are incorrect in claiming that the film is pushing a message of blind obedience to the hierarchy.

Also, of all the possible examples of the folly of blind obedience you could have picked, did you have to pick one that is a notorious trigger/talking point for the Right-wing militia crowd? And people criticize my politicization of the topic...

You don't understand what a stong female character is. In fact, what a strong character is. Disney's Lucasfilm group doesn't too, mind you. Leia, Padme, Ahsoka, Mara Jade, even Vestara (and all of them from SW universe) are strong female characters. Of them, only Ahsoka took more episodes to grow, but that's because of the format. The rest worked on their first movie/book and for a reason: there were good writers behind them.

There are many ways to write a strong female character, or a strong character in general, but they all share the same basic foundation: avoidance of stereotypes and other clichés, a focus on strength of character/personality over physical prowess/feats, and attention to continuity and detail.

That said, I don't think that Holdo is a particularly good example of a strong female character. I just don't think she's as incompetent as the bashers make her out to be.

If you asked me who the strongest female character of the new films is in terms of character development, I'd actually say Rose, at this point.

[Crazedwraith]

As I've pointed out before TRR. Poe hadnt been told the plan when he mutinied. He was told about the shuttles made a wrong assumption as to what the plan was ans mutinies.

This is a bad thing to do, yes.

When Leia dope slaps him points out the planet and what the plan is, he's fine with it.

[The Romulan Republic]

As I've pointed out before TRR. Poe hadnt been told the plan when he mutinied. He was told about the shuttles made a wrong assumption as to what the plan was ans mutinies.

This is a bad thing to do, yes.

To be more precise: he is told part of the plan, and flips out.

So when people say "Well, Holdo didn't have to tell him the whole plan, but she should have told him something"... yeah.

Maybe if she'd told him about the base or stealth first? But given how quick he is to jump to the worst conclusion possible, I don't know if even that would have helped. And as I've been saying, she had little reason to tell him anything, and good reasons not to.

For that matter, did he even give her a chance to tell him where the transports were going or how they expected to avoid detection before flipping out? Honest question.

I'll have to re-watch the scene once its out on DVD.

When Leia dope slaps him points out the planet and what the plan is, he's fine with it.

I think that's partly a personality thing. While Poe did disobey Leia's orders at the start of the film, he also seems to have more trust in her than in probably anyone else but himself and maybe Finn. So with her, he was willing to at least listen before jumping to conclusions.

I do think that Poe and Holdo are kind of mirrors to each other. Both are friends/protégés of Leia. Both are experienced and seemingly respected commanders. Neither is particularly inclined to give the other the benefit of the doubt, though Holdo had better cause. But where Poe is too reckless, Holdo is arguably too cautious.

Edit: The ultimate end points of their story could be seen as mirroring each other as well, though its a bit tenuous. Holdo is forced into a situation where she has to take immediate, decisive action, and sacrifice herself in an all-out attack. Poe is forced to recognize that he was behaving recklessly and impulsively.